Jimquisition: Let's End the FPS Sausage-fest

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Meatspinner:

SnakeoilSage:
Team Fortress 2 has the Heavy and the Scout.

Any argument against scaling issues is invalid.

TF2 has a rock, paper, scissors class approach to it's game balance. Most shooters don't. Everybody is supposedly on the same level. your argument is invalid

Then their shouldn't be any problem at all in creating a female character model with the exact same hit scales. Again, invalid.

And that's why my games multiplayer is better then the FPS's

Because you not only make my life a little easier, but also have breasts while you're doing it.

I like Jim, but the past month it seems like he's been making shows out of things I wasn't aware were problems or even a big deal at all.

Wish he would talk about bigger things, like the discussion on Steam's monopoly as of late.

Jimothy Sterling:
I guess there was that one woman in COD4, yeah, though we can assume she was the last of her kind, made extinct in that terrible war.

Yeah, that one women who immediately got shot out of the sky and had to be valiantly saved by her burly male counterparts.

I just KNOW this is going to end up like all the other topics about "women in video games", namely, everyone throws one big hissy fit, trying to justify what is, at times, the unjustifiable, most of which usually boils down to "stop ruining our fun, you can't complain because it's not meant for your, BLAH!" Geez...

You just couldn't let it die Jim, could you?

I didn't bother reading every page, but through four pages of this thread everyone seems to forget you play a female character in Battlefield 3. In the bombing mission, you're a lady.

Mylinkay Asdara:

ex275w:

Mylinkay Asdara:
Yup. It sucks to have to play dudes when you aren't one. It's not that you're playing a dude, so much, it's that you have to, because they didn't give you any other option. My fiancÚ knows I have 'dibs' on any female toons when a game has them, because there are usually only a few and they are mine because I have spent years and years and years in a male avatar across so many titles that when the option to play my own gender comes up, I'm doing it. Even though that sometimes forces me to play character types I wouldn't normally favor, if they are the girl, that's me. It's a little ridiculous that we're still in this situation, as players, where we have to scavenge for our own gendered toons.

When you say toon do you refer to games that let you create your character (Bioware games) or that offer different premade characters of different sexes? (Dead Island)

I don't like the argument that game forces you to play as Nathan Drake or Kratos. It's like saying a movie forces its protagonist onto you. Since games are becoming more like movies and made with that mindset, and AAA games are risk averse we always get our Michael Bay protagonists.

Technologically it's not currently feasible to have the choice of playing as Nathan and Natalie Drake since the Uncharted games for instance are highly cinematic (Have plenty of pre-rendered cut scenes) and disc memory wouldn't be enough to fit all the content for the male and female protagonist plus the game's budget would skyrocket.

Of course this doesn't mean that there shouldn't be the choose your sex option in any game, only games that aren't highly cinematic, of which they are many.

Another option is doing it the JRPG way and have both men and women in the party without a clear protagonist among the group. Like Final Fantasy VI.

Good question. I meant pre-generated characters. In games that have multiple playable characters (toons). I realize that some stories are just about a person, and that's fine. If it's the story of Mario and his brother or Link or Cloud or whomever, then that's the story and I'm playing that person male or female. In something like, say, Borderlands for example, though you get a choice of 5 or 6 people and there's 1 who is a chick - that will be me, every time, by default, because it is THE ONLY female option of the handful we get. Same was true back in the day when Chun Li was the only female in a fighting game, then Cammie, etc. and so on. That's more what I am referring to.

I agree with your point that if the main character is the only playable character, then people know that going in and they either want to play that character's story or they don't - regardless of the gender. Then again, it would be nice if there were more of those that happened to be of the female persuasion, as it is, the vast majority are not. That is, though, a separate issue apart from what's under discussion here, which is having the option to have a female toon when the question is multiple choice.

As far as possible, I think the Mass Effect / Dragon Age games have shown that cinematic doesn't cut off the possibility of offering either or, and it is very nice to have been able to play those games as a female and be a female while doing it. They are some of my most replayed titles and that reason is certainly in the top 10 of why. I don't think that's something every single game should do - it is however a decent solution to the problem of the lack of games that center on a female protagonist's story without cutting out the considerably sized male audience or forcing them into playing chicks to play games (the way many girls for many years have been forced to play guys to play games throughout gaming's past and present).

More cinematic games need female protagonists, Portal 2, Mirror's Edge, Beyond Good and Evil, Metroid Prime 3, and Final Fantasy XIII are examples. The important thing here is making a good game that will override misogynists idiots from spouting hatred (OK FFXIII is dubiously good).

Another solution when only having a male protagonist is to make them appealing to women to some extent. The game still has to be good.

My last solution is to create an androgynous/sexless character like Kirby and Yoshi, which appeal to kids and adults and boys and girls. Pokemon also thrives on having Cute/Badass mons that are gender equal.

Still it would be funny to have games like Uncharted or God of War having the option to play as a woman while the rest of the content remains the same. Games would now only appeal to heterosexual men and homosexual women.

I agree with jim on this one no reason you cant have both in your multi or singleplayer. I mean if the story is like uncharted then dont throw tits in there just to say "hur look we got the womenz) But multiplayer should always have the option.

V TheSystem V:
Show that women are defenceless when not making sandwiches!' or something. That game had a huge budget...so where were all the ladies?!

She was equipped with a MP5.

Still it would be funny to have games like Uncharted

You do play as women.

I didn't bother reading every page, but through four pages of this thread everyone seems to forget you play a female character in Battlefield 3. In the bombing mission, you're a lady.

Let's pretend SP in a main BF title doesn't exist.

That's one of the reasons why I wish CoD would return to WWII, there's still many things they could touch upon, playing as a female soldier in the Red Army being one

IW could have used that female model for the Russian SMG class in the multiplayer.

Something we haven't really seen since. A female protagonist in a WWII FPS, member of the French Resistance.

I was hopping MOH2 would have been a remake of that except with a female Afghanistan.

Personally I'm all for seeing more female characters in games and any reason not to is just BS or laziness on the part of the developer. After all if Valve has all that free time on their hands to make 50 million stupid hats for TF2 why not make some playable female versions of each class?

Because designing those 9 iconic characters took time since able to recognize a class takes a bit of time...and probably also because they've became too iconic and fanbase have become too attached for anybody to care at this point of time. Perhaps they could try in TF3 or maybe ask modders to make female models.

ex275w:

Mylinkay Asdara:

ex275w:

Snip.

More cinematic games need female protagonists, Portal 2, Mirror's Edge, Beyond Good and Evil, Metroid Prime 3, and Final Fantasy XIII are examples. The important thing here is making a good game that will override misogynists idiots from spouting hatred (OK FFXIII is dubiously good).

Another solution when only having a male protagonist is to make them appealing to women to some extent. The game still has to be good.

My last solution is to create an androgynous/sexless character like Kirby and Yoshi, which appeal to kids and adults and boys and girls. Pokemon also thrives on having Cute/Badass mons that are gender equal.

Still it would be funny to have games like Uncharted or God of War having the option to play as a woman while the rest of the content remains the same. Games would now only appeal to heterosexual men and homosexual women.

Okay, I'm going to apologize in advance in case I'm misinterpreting your last portion here, but the "slippery slope" type talking on this issue kinda is a pet peeve of mine. Firstly, it isn't that games with male protagonists don't appeal to female players. We've all, I'm sure, played a lot of them over our tenure as gamers, and most of them have been enjoyable enough that we'd play them again no problems. That doesn't change the fact that there is a notable lack of games with female protagonists that have been done equally well or the fact that a great many female players would like that to change someday. Secondly, it is missing the point entirely to start talking about "then games would only appeal to X group or Y group or Z group if we did A or if we did B or if we did C." This isn't about catering to a "special interest group" of people. It isn't like saying we should make games that appeal to people with fear of spiders (which I can't spell, but there is a movement for that has vocalized their position elsewhere on these boards before) or people who are of a certain sexual persuasion (either heterosexual or homosexual or any of the others) or people who want to see more child-murder in their games - this is far more basic. The very first division of human beings (and pretty much every other species) provided by nature: male and female. That isn't all too specific I wouldn't think, and doesn't qualify to be compared to smaller groupings as if it were.

Well with that off my chest, yes sometimes non-sexed protagonists are the answer, sometimes having both sexes as the player's option is an answer too. There are a lot of possible answers to the general issue, and I'm keen to see the game developers start exploring them. Removing the option to play females in situations where multiple choices are an option (like multiplayer modes) isn't really a step in the right direction though, and I'm glad Jim pointed that out in this video.

Damn you Jim... I was eating!

Anyway you can never please a feminist. Why? Because feminist are for the advancement of females. Not the equality, the Advancement! They will not stop until men and women are again unequal, but this time in their favour.

If we actually include female characters we get them whining about violence against women. "This game treats women horribly! Face huggers are forcibly raping women through the mouth and giving them death babies! Look at these predators mutilating women and ripping out their spines!"

You mark my words, it will happen. The only reason it hasn't recently is because Blacklight is a below the radar game no one else but gamers actually know about.

PS: I am in favour of female characters. Even though I will forever swear that tiny 5 foot Asian woman is cheating the hitboxes big time.

RaikuFA:

gamejunkiey69:
Hey, i have an idea. How about in stead of FPS's we make some FPS's? First Person Stabbers? I like a game were i'd use a knife to fight some one else with a knife instead of, As yahtzee says "Me shooting at something really far away and me dying alot"

Thief and the Elder Scrolls series have melee combat and only that.

You mean except for the plethora of arrow options, flashbang grenades and mines in the former, and archery and magic in the latter?

If you think Thief and TES have their combat options limited purely to melee, you've been doing it wrong.

Ahhhh~ Jim, you're on a roll with your points.

Really can't argue with Jim on this one, for it would be easy and not expensive really to model playable females in a game multiplayer or not. Story wise I can see how that's dependable but in multiplayer where most of the characters look the same? Yeah, that can be edited no problem. In fact for Team Fortress 2, people made female versions of almost all the characters and they don't even work for Valve!

Shows how much people would appreciate female versions. I surely appreciate Mass Effect 3's multiplayer and how you can be any race and it's gender as you like. Gives more variety along with admiring how a chick can dominate the field (especially if I am playing as an awesome Asari- yeah!)

I definitely think this is one area where the Mass Effect series excels. You can play as female or male (and in fact many players male and female prefer female Shepard for her voice actress) and the series has strong female characters throughout. Now, you can criticize the characters as characters, and question the gratuititous sexualization of some of them, but I doubt being "weak", "excluded", or "not good in a fight" would be among the criticisms.

Just wanted the point some thing out, Ripley (in Alien at least) actually is not a good example of a strong woman, she was originally written to be a man, she shares no characteristics with being female, she's basically just a guy with tits. you could switch her out for a male cast member and no one would notice and in a way that's patronizing to women, it just re-enforces this common blunder in characterization that the only way to portray "strong women" is basically make them act like men.

Michelle Rodriguez has built her career on it on this folly

Treblaine:

Kitsune Hunter:
Good point Jim, but actually in Call of Duty, they do show women, well actually, a woman in CoD4 as she's hear in the mission, Charlie Don't Surf, then you have to rescue her from a downed helicopter in the mission, Shock and Awe

And the LAST appearance of any female combatant in any COD games for the next half decade. And her role in the game was to get shot up and carried away by the big strong many player protagonist.

Yet when WORLD WAR 3 starts and they need as many people who can carry a rifle as possible, you still don't see any female... anywhere.

And yet the last time COD did a world war they had female combatants on the Eastern front, as was historically accurate.

Last time you could PLAY a female in CoD was actually in Black Ops 1 Zombie Mode, map "Call of the Dead"
See here. (Of couse, there is also Samantha, but you have to 'unlock' her and you only get her personality, not model, due a body-swap, putting your previous character into Sams body)

And Black Ops 2 will have female combatants. True, they don't carry a rifle as far as we saw - but the one we know about already is flying the damn jet we saw.
See here.
So, CoD (at least Black Ops) is changing that already - so don't say last time we saw a female in CoD was in CoD2.

Don't know that it would be enough to draw me back to FPS's.

Being hurled mounds of Misogynistic bile every-time I either;

a) Got a good kill
b) Made a fuck up

Wears on your patience when all you're trying to do is have fun, so even with the models to attract future fresher girls who haven't yet been jaded is a great idea I think it might be too late for me.

But yes, More of Drag-Jim. Looks good on you man.

Drake was the biggest badass, apart from Vasquez and Ripley. He didn't bitch or moan, he wasn't scared and he was the only one who truly respected Vasquez as an equal. Plus he carried the smartgun.

:D

A female marine explaining exactly why women have no place in infantry/combat-heavy roles:
http://usnews.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2012/07/12/12684555-women-in-the-infantry-forget-about-it-says-female-marine-officer?lite

Here's her full report titled "Get over it! We are not all created equal":
http://www.mca-marines.org/gazette/article/get-over-it-we-are-not-all-created-equal

It's a long read but worth it, I don't think any sane person can really argue with what she has to say - especially someone as battle-hardened as her. Jim did a mistake by bringing realism into the picture, he should've stuck to gender equality in video games and left it at that.

Most roles depicted in first peron shooters involve being some kind of a marine - because we idolize the marine corps as the most elite force. And while women's roles in the military are increasing (primarily communications, engineering, support/pilots, etc) female marines are...well, only allowed in exceptional cases. It's still primarily closed to women.

You can't water-down the physical entrance exams for women because war doesn't care whether it's impacting a man or a woman. Packs/weapons don't become lighter for women. An injured comrade won't be any easier to carry for a woman. The list goes on and on.

If people REALLY wanted FPS titles to be a depiction of the real thing (why on earth would you?), you would pretty much have 1-2 female marines for every 100 male marines, if even that. Can you really blame developers when they aim for "realism" and end up showing nothing but men in frontline combat?
The correct thing to do would be to ask for FPS's to NOT be realistic. Then you can have all the girls with guns that you want, and female gamers won't feel left out! Simple.

Sometimes developers forget the point of video games is to get away from the real thing, especially in first person shooters. It's not that hard to throw in a female model or two to keep the female gamers happy and the feminists at bay.

Wow, the FOV on that Aliens game is probably around 55, so no buy for me then.

wait hang on a minute.... the new Alien game wont have female character models.... did they not watch the movies or something?

Smilomaniac:
Drake was the biggest badass, apart from Vasquez and Ripley. He didn't bitch or moan, he wasn't scared and he was the only one who truly respected Vasquez as an equal. Plus he carried the smartgun.

:D

Dude Vasquez and Drake were blood brothers; if not for them, that movie would have been over really quick. Don't forget, Vasquez had the SmartGun as well; they were they squad assault gunners :)

You're right though, biggest pair of badasses in the bunch.

Jim Sterling:
drag

Somehow, Jim, you've managed to look simultaneously like every single woman from The Far Side comic strip.

Next week, please wear your hair up, and add polka dots.

image

seriously, they all look like jim. LOOK

I have a boner right now.......so yeahhhhh.......

Gordon_4:

Dude Vasquez and Drake were blood brothers; if not for them, that movie would have been over really quick. Don't forget, Vasquez had the SmartGun as well; they were they squad assault gunners :)

You're right though, biggest pair of badasses in the bunch.

I forgot she carried one as well... :( I just remember when Apone confiscated all the ammo, Drake just fished out a new coupling.

undeadsuitor:

Terminate421:
You forgot Halo! Look at the difference between Spartans!

Female:
-

Male:
-

Is this supposed to be a bad thing? I kind of like it. The armor is made for duty, not looks. It would have been hilarious if female spartans lacked waste armor to show off their stomach because.....female

Armoured female characters in games are only supposed to wear bikini armour, female Spartans should have only had a metal bra and hotpants. Its ok though they have shields.

In all seriousness when I first got Reach I played a female Spartan in the campaign, I thought it was pretty cool it was done.

Unrealistic? There aren't many women in the armed services and none in front line combat for the countries you play as. That's entirely realistic.

Frostbite3789:
I didn't bother reading every page, but through four pages of this thread everyone seems to forget you play a female character in Battlefield 3. In the bombing mission, you're a lady.

I scrolled every page and you are only one I think who remembered this. But then again you don't have female option on multiplayer. And what is more funnier about multiplayer skins is that people are more anoyed that US assault is black and you can't change it, that's why some on BF community wants customable characters, not because there aren't females.

I DEMAND that Jim appears in a full production of Hairspray as soon as is humanly possible.

Clearing the Eye:
Unrealistic? There aren't many women in the armed services and none in front line combat for the countries you play as. That's entirely realistic.

Are there many women serving in the future wars where people wear nano-suits and flay around with jetpacks? Couldn't someone squeeze a woman protagonist into something as realistic as a re-born mobster possessed by the devil's arms?

FPS is a broad church. Bringing up the 'realism argument' only works if you are talking about ARMA II or anything meant as a simulation. Is anyone going to sit there with a straight face and tell me that Call of Duty or battlefield offers us a truely realistic picture of life on the battlefield? Would you find a female soldier more unrealistic and off putting then an unkillable man who gets covered in jam when he is shot and sets off about 12 nukes a day?

Smilomaniac:

Gordon_4:

Dude Vasquez and Drake were blood brothers; if not for them, that movie would have been over really quick. Don't forget, Vasquez had the SmartGun as well; they were they squad assault gunners :)

You're right though, biggest pair of badasses in the bunch.

I forgot she carried one as well... :( I just remember when Apone confiscated all the ammo, Drake just fished out a new coupling.

it was vasquez who fished out two couplings, and gave one to drake. I remember him telling her 'you're just too bad!'

I know alot of people who didn't play the campaign in BF3 at all. Personally I did, and the only parts I do remember well are the ones where you played as Dima, and the last mission, and the one right before it. Also the tank mission.

Out of the whole series though, the only characters I found remotely memorable were the main character for obvious reasons, and Dima and friends.

Also, seriously, people are mad that the US Assault is black?
He's probably the most memorable multiplayer character too.

Thanks for this, Jim. If I could play as my own gender while gunning down aliens, zombies etc I would totally buy more fps games. That way it'd be so much easier to imagine that that's me doing all that merciless killing (mwahahaha)! Also, Ripley is my hero.

Side note: The idea of 'crotchless' underwear baffles me... What is the point of even wearing underpants if there's no crotch-coverage? *shrug*

You make an absolutely stunning woman, by the way.

Good episode as always Jim, keep it up!

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