Knightfail

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Knightfail

MovieBob points out a few plot holes in The Dark Knight Rises.

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Tell it like it is!

great breakdown as usual bob!

Good stuff, Bob, like an analysis of your early impressions on the Post-Movie Podcast. And Film Critic Hulk has some good reasons why the film might not live up to the usual Nolan standards.

What I found particularly odd was that Bane never used venom to enhance himself or any of that, when that's pretty much the central aspect of the character; his power, his weak nature that drives him to "prove" himself by beating Batman, his battles with addiction, all of it.

I've heard claims that it wouldn't fit in Nolan's more realistic adaptation, but why not? Venom isn't magical in nature, it's not an alien substance or the jizz of a dead Lovecraftian god. It's just a chemical compound with some funky properties, much like Scarecrow's fear gas in the first movie. How does that break the gritty realism angle?

Also, it would have given us a way more awesome third act if they'd switched the venom story around (in the comics, Batman became an addict first to enhance his power, and then broke the addiction when he realised what it was doing to him) to Batman powering-up on the stuff in order to defeat Bane, and then the whole learning-to-be-Batman-again angle could have worked the second time as him weaning himself off an addictive and dangerous drug. Then you could make Talia more impressive as a last-act twist villain, with some plotline about how she'd engineered the whole thing somehow.

I can overlook most of these issues simply due to fact that this movie was an incredibly impressive undertaking. They tried to do a lot with this film while carrying the weight of two others and manged to wrap it up with a nice bow at the end. It wasn't a perfect movie, but I think it's a worthy ending to the trilogy.

You'd think a boot to that thing on his face would be more effective, considering an uneven metal surface is a bunch of knuckle fractures waiting to happen. But why wouldn't the Trash collectors do their job? The whole reason the Society of Shadows takes down Big cities is because they've grown too opulent, not because they want to turn it into Mad Max land. They know that society can function perfectly well without the rich and powerful.

And I'm surprised you didn't also bring-up that whole "leap of faith" Bullshit in Batman's escape from the prison. I've said it before and I'll say it again: fear of death is not going to make a twelve year old girl jump further than a fully grown man.

Oh I still liked it though.
Captcha: How interesting

I can understand why you'd call these flaws, but I disagree. I thought the film worked perfectly well as it is, and rather than feel like you've pointed out some mistakes I feel more like we just have differing opinions.
The only one I agree with is the distinct lack of shit Gotham is in after 5 months of no organized cops and 1,000-odd convicted criminals loose.

I did think it was clearly stated that 5 months had indeed passed though, as Gordon says it, the season has clearly changed to winter, and Bruce is in a significantly better condition after being first dropped in the prison by Bane.

I never felt the dislocation watching it a lot of people have commentated on, nor the difficulty hearing what Bane was saying.

Well, while I can't disagree with too much of the article, I think it is worth noting that when Bruce Wayne explains a plot point to himself in the hallucination scene, he gets it wrong...

Whilst the explicit exposition is overdone in places, I did like how the blood/DNA thing with Dr. Pavel on the plane wasn't verbally explained at any point.

Also, I'm assuming the cane is a result of the fall with Harvey Dent at the end of The Dark Knight? He was noticeably limping afterwards, and the fall was fatal to Two-Face - a permanent/semi-permanent injury isn't unexpected. Every time I see the cane/limp come up in a review though, it seems to be described as an injury of unknown provenance.

I'd disagree with the criticism's on the first fight with Bane. I personally (a note to people reading this: this means I recognise that this is my opinion and am simply saying it rather than claiming it as a fact to make Bob seem wrong) felt that having Bane state how Batman's tricks weren't working, at one point even quoting lines from the first film, was a good way of demonstrating that he had the edge mentally as well as physically. Telling Batman "Nope, that ain't gonna work. That was a stupid thing to do. Your tricks are lame" is a means of breaking him in more way than just snapping his spine. It is, in a sense, a form of trolling

I agree with the lackluster surprise with Talia, and I felt it actually hurt the movie. Bane the entire movie (to me at least), though a different Bane, was methodical, ruthless, cunning, and at the same time had a flare of bestiality under his very gentleman like facade. I felt like having him suddenly be just a minion to someone we barely saw undercut all the positive things about him and made him just bland. Maybe it's because I'm not completely immersed in comics and knew only that Bane is the guy who broke the bat and a bruiser, but I felt the better thing to do would be to have had him use some type of crazy formula to make him into the Bane we knew.

I loved a lot about the movie, but the Talia thing made it, at least to me, just so upsetting since it was near the end, and I really liked Bane up until that point. It ruined him as a character, at least to me it did

I figure they could have gone one or two ways with this movie. They could have just made another self contained Batman story and make it as engaging as possible, only to be inevitably declared inferior to the previous ones that came before it. I think they took a harder and more ambitious path of trying to up the stakes past both of the previous movies (which is no small feat, considering they both involved different ways of destroying the city), while at the same time tying it in with the previous films to give a more grandiose scale. It's big and it's clunky, but it's undeniable that the thing does work. I thought a lot of the love for this flick would stem from prerelease hype and expectation, but even with my low expectations and attempts to pick it apart, I was still thoroughly entertained for 2 hours and 45 minutes.

All of these Dark Knight Rises flaws articles are pretty spot on, though. My favorite segment of bizarre overexposition was when Alfred was in the Batcave and explained Bane's entire origin and excommunication from the League of Shadows. I immediately went, "wait, how does he know that?" Was it on the news? Is there a Bat computer that keeps tabs on that stuff? Would this information be available to the general public?

Intresting analysis.
Disagree.

DVS BSTrD:

And I'm surprised you didn't also bring-up that whole "leap of faith" Bullshit in Batman's escape from the prison. I've said it before and I'll say it again: fear of death is not going to make a twelve year old girl jump further than a fully grown man.

It was the rope. If you get a chance, pay attention to the rope when they show people jumping, the rope goes taut just as they get close to the ledge and they fail to make it. By not using the rope and risking death you can make the jump because the rope no longer prevents you. Neither the kid nor Bruce use the rope when they succeed. That said, I noticed it the first time Bruce tried to jump and was immediately expecting him to go "oh the rope" and try again. Nope, 15 more mins of moping and waiting for a side character to explain something I thought was incredibly obvious.

I loved the first Bruce v. Bane fight. It was brutally perfect and I thought it helped illustrate the fact that Batman had lost his skill and wasn't ready like Alfred said.

Though I did hate them calling Robin Robin, would've made sense if they gave him one of the Robins actual names.

Bob, you totally miss the point. He doesn't learn to be batman the first time, he just has new gadgets that Fox gives him, Alfred tells him so. Did you miss that conversation? Bruce Wayne then gets his back broken by Bane because he wasn't Batman, not anymore. So he RISES. He learns to be angry again (that same anger that drove him in the first place) and more importantly, he realizes that he doesn't have to die to save gotham necessarily. I think you missed the point Bob in that part. Although I do agree the film isn't without it's flaws, I think that, is deffinitively not one of them.
EDIT: Although I do agree with the rest of the review. I too don't think it's BAD but I feel like something IS missing.

That was such a cool article, it didn't feel counter-culture or counter-counter-culture, or any outward motive, just a smart look at a film that wasn't quite what we hoped for and a nice way to look at these things

In a specific sense, I liked the Robin thing, because I realised towards the beginning of the second half and had a 'holy crud they put a Robin in this film that doesn't suck without me even realising it' moment and so when it came around it wasn't a joke to me, but conformation (I even thought of your comments about Robin :D ) but I can see why it's badly placed

Tali twist wasn't surprising, I knew about Tali.

Robin was also Batman and Nightwing. Not everyone out there knows comics this well, so saying his name as Robin was a shout out to all the people unfamiliar with Batman outside of the movies.

I agree 100% with easternflame. Bruce Wayne is not Batman, and that is part of the reason he gave it up to Robin. Really, there WERE two rises in the film: Bruce Wayne picking his broken, beaten ass back up to finish the job, and Robin becoming Batman.

Pacing, eh, you could be a little right. But they did have the snow, and they said how much time til the bomb blew up, and they showed the timer a bunch of times.

I liked most of this movie but I feel it suffered a ton of rewrites to the script namely having to do with Heath Ledger no longer being with us on the mortal plane. I really feel Nolan intended the Joker to be part of the final movie and his absence leaves a gaping hole in the film's plot. Of course I don't really know if this is true, its just speculation.
As far as Robin goes, I thought the reveal was clever and I missed all the signs because they were masked fairly well. And I also feel saddened that we probably will never see Joseph Gordon-Levitt as Robin, or the new Batman because frankly he's pulling a Matt Damon/Jason Bourne on us. I never thought him to be an action star but Inception went a long way in proving range for him in my view and Dark Knight Rises cemented that. A real waste of potential in my view.
Otherwise despite holes and the specter of Heath Ledger, the movie wasn't as bad as it could have been and wrapped up the trilogy enough for me to be satisfied. And you really couldn't top the 2nd movie anyway. It just worked on so many levels that couldn't be duplicated without compromising its art.

it's still the best movie of the summer. This is the Return of the King of superhero films as it is the ending to the best series of superhero movies EVER. Nolan broke the 3rd movie curse and has proven he's the best thing that ever happened to comic book movies. This analysis isn't really all that provocative and is merely a difference of opinion

My biggest problem is the fusion reactor subplot. Wayne enterprises went through significant expense to make this machine that can provide cheap clean energy to millions and probably save the world, but he scraps it on the outside chance that someone out there with the know-how just MIGHT make it into a weapon...I was sitting in my seat wishing I could cry out "ARE YOU F-ING KIDDING ME?!" If we didn't embrace innovation or technology because of the fear that SOMEONE might use it as a weapon someday we never would have learned how to use FIRE. Besides, it's not like the fusion reactor is the only thing in the world that can be made into a nuclear bomb. A dedicated enough terrorist could make his own nuke using materials from almost any nuclear power plant in the world, or you know what? They could just STEAL and actual nuclear bomb, as far as I know there are a few thousand just sitting in government bunkers.

Although it DOES create a hilarious throwback to the Adam West days, you know, where Batman was running through the city with the big bomb with a burning fuse over his head trying to find a safe place to dispose of it and he says "Some days you just can't get rid of a bomb!"

When i watched it all i thought was Batman v Bronson. lol

Duffy13:

DVS BSTrD:

And I'm surprised you didn't also bring-up that whole "leap of faith" Bullshit in Batman's escape from the prison. I've said it before and I'll say it again: fear of death is not going to make a twelve year old girl jump further than a fully grown man.

It was the rope. If you get a chance, pay attention to the rope when they show people jumping, the rope goes taut just as they get close to the ledge and they fail to make it. By not using the rope and risking death you can make the jump because the rope no longer prevents you. Neither the kid nor Bruce use the rope when they succeed. That said, I noticed it the first time Bruce tried to jump and was immediately expecting him to go "oh the rope" and try again. Nope, 15 more mins of moping and waiting for a side character to explain something I thought was incredibly obvious.

Yeah, but wouldn't anyone who climbed it figure that out on the first try? I thought of it and I was just watching the movie. It would probably come to mind when I was hundreds of feet in the air and I noticed my rope didn't have enough slack.

Bobs always at his best with film. I mean I absolutely loved the film but everything bob said was indeed true.

The joy of not seeing movies alot is that good movies are great because the bad doesnt poke out at you as much.

zelda2fanboy:

Duffy13:

DVS BSTrD:

And I'm surprised you didn't also bring-up that whole "leap of faith" Bullshit in Batman's escape from the prison. I've said it before and I'll say it again: fear of death is not going to make a twelve year old girl jump further than a fully grown man.

It was the rope. If you get a chance, pay attention to the rope when they show people jumping, the rope goes taut just as they get close to the ledge and they fail to make it. By not using the rope and risking death you can make the jump because the rope no longer prevents you. Neither the kid nor Bruce use the rope when they succeed. That said, I noticed it the first time Bruce tried to jump and was immediately expecting him to go "oh the rope" and try again. Nope, 15 more mins of moping and waiting for a side character to explain something I thought was incredibly obvious.

Yeah, but wouldn't anyone who climbed it figure that out on the first try? I thought of it and I was just watching the movie. It would probably come to mind when I was hundreds of feet in the air and I noticed my rope didn't have enough slack.

Yeah but if you fear death.(bruce dont) youl suspend disbelief that you can have your cake and eat it too.

Interesting and thoughtful as always, but that doesn't mean I agree. I think a lot of your observations are just plain untrue, in fact--you really don't think there was any more dramatic tension in the "second rising" (I really, really don't think it's accurate to call it two arcs--it's one arc with a major setback. He decides to be Batman again, fails miserably, winds up worse off than ever, and only after that does he have any kind of learning experience or meaningful victory)? He got a couple of cool moments in the first half due to having new toys, but they were just action scenes. Even the first "He's back!" moment is just him showing up on the motorcycle while one of the cops is like "Oh, shit!" Compare that to the tension and triumph of the climbing-out-of-the-pit scene and burning his calling card into the side of a skyscraper for the whole city to see. There was only one "rising." He just needed multiple attempts.

As for when he figures out that Selina's more than she appears, I'd say it was when they had the extended ideological conversation about her resentment of the upper class? Just as a guess? If he said something about it beforehand, I'd assume he meant she was a major-league threat and not just a common thief, considering she stole his fingerprints and that's a pretty good indication she was up to something bigger than a pearl necklace.

As for the telling instead of showing, you're absolutely right... about the whole trilogy. That's been something you've had to be willing to ignore about Nolan's filmmaking from day one. They're all stuffed with monologues that explicitly outline the significance of the plot instead of just letting the actions stand for themselves. I for one find a good melodramatic moral monologue kind of fun, even if it's objectively flawed writing. One way or the other, I take issue with the implication that that kind of thing didn't fly in The Dark Knight. The closing scene of that movie is Gordon's voiceover summing up the plot and explaining the title. Harvey Dent accidentally outlines his own character arc in the middle of a dinner conversation in the first act. The Joker's ENTIRE PERSONALITY is unsolicited speeches about his beliefs and motivations. In Batman Begins, Bruce's character development is shown pretty much exclusively in conversations about himself with Ra's, Alfred and Rachel. I love all these movies, but telling instead of showing is absolutely not a problem that first (or even most severely) manifested in Rises.

MovieBob:
The film's third act is built around a series of three twists, one that occurs as part of the action and two that function as post-climax "gotchas." Only the final one (Bruce faked his/Batman's death and is really still alive) actually works

I disagree with this 100%. In fact, the whole "faking his death" thing kinda pissed me off for reasons that it should have pissed off the other characters in the movie. Don't get me wrong, I understand the symbolism that he let everyone think Batman is dead so that he can quit for good. That's fine, it wraps-up the whole "Getting Bruce to not need Batman" part of the story.

The problem comes in with how everyone just kind of accepts it. Most namely Selina and Alfred. Now, we don't get to see Selina mourning, granted, but you know she had to have been upset. Yet when she learns he's alive she decides to get married to him? But okay, fine, we don't see it play out, so I'll allow it. But Alfred? We SEE how badly he was torn-up by Bruce's (not Batman's) death; yet when he learns that all that grieving that he went through was for nothing... he just smiles? No, I'm sorry, I don't accept that. No one, after going through that rough of a grieving phase, is going to just up and accept it when he learns that the person faked his death.

Even worse is the lie that was told to the audience. A great ending where he chooses to sacrifice himself to save the lives of millions, and that entire dramatic moment was ruined by Nolan waving the Deus Ex Machina wand and having some nameless engineer at WyaneCorp tell us that the auto-pilot was working just fine...

So in short, Batman lies to Selina, Alfred, AND us about his sacrifice... and we're supposed to just forgive that as easily as Alfred did when he learned about it (and presumably Selina)? No, I'm sorry, it doesn't work that way.

No passage of time? Bruce Wayne 2005
image

and in 2012

image

A quibble; Not since Rocky 2 have they so forgotten a character's wound. Bruce makes it out of the pit after a record setting leap. With no cartilidge in his knee? Oh well.

Duffy13:

DVS BSTrD:

And I'm surprised you didn't also bring-up that whole "leap of faith" Bullshit in Batman's escape from the prison. I've said it before and I'll say it again: fear of death is not going to make a twelve year old girl jump further than a fully grown man.

It was the rope. If you get a chance, pay attention to the rope when they show people jumping, the rope goes taut just as they get close to the ledge and they fail to make it. By not using the rope and risking death you can make the jump because the rope no longer prevents you. Neither the kid nor Bruce use the rope when they succeed. That said, I noticed it the first time Bruce tried to jump and was immediately expecting him to go "oh the rope" and try again. Nope, 15 more mins of moping and waiting for a side character to explain something I thought was incredibly obvious.

Hmmm I didn't notice that. But if that's true surely someone else who missed the jump and fell back down could have said: "Next time could you leave me a little slack?" I'm not sure how the rope worked (whether it was tied to the ledge or not) but I seem to remember it did reach all the way down to the bottom from the top when they were climbing. Unless it was some kind double pulley system, I don't see how it would get so short so close to the top.

rbstewart7263:
Yeah but if you fear death.(bruce don't) you'll suspend disbelief that you can have your cake and eat it too.

But it's not even physically necessary. I was hopping for something clever like the fake-out from The Last Crusade or some ingenuity like Mulan when she retrieves the arrow. But no, only 'fear' can give you the boost you need.

Completely disagree over the passage of time problems, but must agree that Gotham would be rather a lot dirtier after 5 months of mob rule.

Robert B. Marks:
Well, while I can't disagree with too much of the article, I think it is worth noting that when Bruce Wayne explains a plot point to himself in the hallucination scene, he gets it wrong...

I loved his face when Miranda revealed herself. "What?! My hallucination of Liam Neeson lied to me!"

I largely agree with Bob's assessment here, but I've got something else to add. While The Dark Knight Rises was, by and large, quite a good movie, what it didn't feel like was a good Batman movie. None of the themes or execution thereof felt like the character being Batman, as opposed to some other generic washed-up badass, actually had any bearing on the movie. Heck, I'd even say that Batman doesn't actually feel like Batman for most of the movie. Batman is good at punching people, sure, but his primary strength is his keen intellect. Batman wins more by outsmarting and outmaneuvering his adversary, but in Rises is seems like the only solution is "punch it."

While I know it's subjective, I think my post-movie feelings were fairly illustrative: after watching The Dark Knight again, I popped Arkham Asylum into my Xbox. After Rises, though, I felt more like going back to Mass Effect 3.

Having literally just got back from the cinema, I have to agree with Bob about the twists. They were terrible - my dad (who went with me but doesn't really know much about Batman) picked up on the "oh hey this guy acts like a wannabe Robin" and the Talia twist felt stupidly obvious from fairly early in the movie. However, I thought the first Bane fight was great (given that Bane isn't just trying to beat Bruce, he's trying to destroy him mentally too) and the touches about the first two films (having Crane as the judge was brilliant imo) still made the film really enjoyable.

EDIT: Also have to say, the way Bane was treated (filmwise rather than personally) was pretty shitty. "Oh hey he's just some sidekick who had his face smashed in" followed by "lol shot by Catwoman insta-death" with the space of five minutes felt stupidly rushed at best.

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