Jimquisition: Why Boycotts Fail Where Whining Tantrums Win

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Thank god for you, Jim, the sole voice of reason that keeps me visiting the escapist.

If that's the case, let me get on doing my part. Ahem.

"GODDAMN IT, WHERE THE HELL IS MY SEQUEL TO SKIES OF ARCADIA?! THAT GAME WAS GREAT!!"

Also, I like your hat, Jim.

I'm sure there's some truth to what Jim says. But I don't have to like it.

Jim, didn't you do a similar video way back? Regarding being heard by being whiny bitches instead of being mature?

Regardless, Hitman didn't change because of people who bought the game and complained, it happened because people complained, period. Maybe boycotting isn't the answer, but it seems purchasing is indeed superfluous at best.

...Okay, maybe not true, with higher "sales expectations" these days, but even then, this doesn't appear to be the standard. At least, not yet. Dead Space 3 may have a pretty nasty precedent.

In any event, it's been demonstrated we'll be viewed as whiny anyway, so it seems like pitching a fit might as well be the recourse anyway.

There are Transformers fans? Who knew?

Your seem to be right about this one ill give you that.
Though action over bitching seems like a preferable course of action in most sensible situations,which these things rarely are.
I might try to put some of this wisdom into action time to bitch untill I can bitch no more!

YES! This is what I've been trying to say for so long, this is exactly what's wrong with the industry! Or well, one of the things that's wrong with it...

For the most part, I agree. There's a big difference in someone saying something akin to that one line Riley said in the Boondocks ("Fuck you, fuck the horse you rode in on, fuck them shoes, fuck yo' chocolate, etc") and "Tasteful, Misunderstood, Nerd Rage" or whatever that video is called. The latter will simply cause everyone to tell you to fuck off, whereas the latter the latter will at least make whoever's listening pause and consider what you just said.

Irridium:
So... who's up for throwing the biggest damn tantrum in the world to get Crytek to make a new Timesplitters game?

Or to make Lucasarts make Battlefront 3?

Because I'd be down for that.

Oh I am!

Crytek, when are we getting Timesplitters 4?
Crytek, when are we getting Timesplitters 4?
Crytek, when are we getting Timesplitters 4?
Crytek, when are we getting Timesplitters 4?
Crytek, when are we getting Timesplitters 4?
Crytek, when are we getting Timesplitters 4?
Crytek, when are we getting Timesplitters 4?
Crytek, when are we getting Timesplitters 4?

Imp Emissary:

RaikuFA:
So any ideas on telling Capcom that I want AAI2 and MML3?

Should I make death threats, demand donations back and attack people who don't know what were talking about?

(I, finally get to do this! :3 ) (online)

Short answer to #2; No. That would only hurt your case.
Long answer, stalling tactic; Noooooooooooooooooooooooo0oooooooooooooo_ooooooooooooooooOoooooooooooooooooooo. Please don't.

As for how to make Capcom make AA12 and MML3. Well, complain, (with other like minded people for better results), that Capcom isn't doing those things you said, and preferably complain to Capcom. That's really the best way to do it. Be polite, and spellcheck (Crap! Is that one word or two? Damn you spelling!)

MortisLegio:
So basically if gamers want change we must be like this

and not like this

ok

OT: Liked the episode and it explains WHY most boycotts aren't a good idea.

This post is three kinds of awesome! That is all.

We've tried that. Its the FGC that says we should'nt get them and guess who Capcom will listen too?

The one caveat I think should be added is that people who aren't going to get the game anyways shouldn't feel entitled to bitch.

E.g. the Hitman: Absolution trailer. How many devout Catholics are going to get that game? How many women (or men for that matter) who would be up in arms about the over-sexualization of women in games designed for and marketed to males would be playing Hitman?

Honestly, bitching makes sense in some cases but not in others.

I'm all for complaining, but we need to pick our battles here. If we all start bitching about everything we don't like about a game, then we're nothing but the entitled whiny gamers that a lot of people think we are. I thought we were trying to mature as an industry, no? This just seems like a big step backwards

Bitching about a game that has sexism, racism, or any other isms = good
Bitching about getting milked by pubs with crap DLC or unnecessary DRM = good
Bitching because we didn't like the ending to a game = not good

There is a fine line between bitching and complaining. One falls on deaf ears. The other gets results

Now the real question is how can we get the Call of Duty sequels to stop?

The only problem I find with "go whine, boo boycott" idea is the same reason you pointed out boycotts fail: Because people buy that shit anyway. Gamers have whined about how Call Of Duty's series haven't gone anywhere in four games, and zilch occurred. They still delivered a short campaign, they still delivered generally the same multiplayer and they still delivered overprice DLC (even making it worse by creating a subscription system that's a rip-off, although even more hilarious if you're an X-Box Live user who has to pay Microsoft 40 a year, and then pay Activision some money just to access some additional content).

The only other problem I find is majority wins, but that can't be helped really. There's no way I can calm IO down and say "look, the nuns thing, people just don't get Hitman if they are complaining about that, they just don't understand that Hitman isn't serious but rather got a cheeky grinning dark sense of humour. Come on, this is the same game series that had an obese man in a slaughterhouse you had to assassinate, who when he realises who you are just keeps screaming "GUARDS! GUARDS! GUUUAAARRDDSSS!", unable to move due to his likeness to Pearl from Blade". All I can do is simply deal with it, and accept the majority rule. Even if they are usually misguided.

Mark B:
Don't "vote with your wallet" instead "buy yourself a vote\voice" ?

Jim is talking more about ppl who just flat out boycott every game with a publishers name on it even if the game is good and aimed at that person. All it does is stop that publisher from making good games.

How many bad games does it take to warrent a blanket boycott? The extreame of that would be for Sonic fans to boycott SEGA even though they have published some of the best games on this gens consoles.

EA have Origin, but they also have some games on Steam and publish on console.

To me, boycotting games - as it is with any company - is less about sending a message I know they'll never get from one lost sale they never knew they could have had, and more about not feeling morally right giving my money to someone so unabashedly evil.

That said, if I were naive enough to try to send a message to Ubisoft about DRM, I wouldn't be boycotting all of their games; I'd be buying the ones that are on GOG.

RaikuFA:
So any ideas on telling Capcom that I want AAI2 and MML3?

Should I make death threats, demand donations back and attack people who don't know what were talking about?

This.

But is whining really going to work all that better than boycotts for most things? Much like boycotts, it's useless unless everyone gets organized and whines together. It worked on Mass Effect 3 because that's exactly what happened: shitloads of Mass Effect fans all over the internet began whining at once. We had people donating to charity and sending cupcakes and writing fan fiction and you couldn't turn your head without finding some people whining about Mass Effect 3's god-awful ending. Other times, as pointed out in this video, people whine about the wrong shit. Rather than whine about Diablo 3's DRM, they whined about colors? And of course, nothing changed on either of those fronts. Oh, and don't forget that classic example of people whining about Sonic 4 and deciding to boycott Sonic 4 in favor of buying Sonic 1, because giving your money to SEGA instead of giving your money to SEGA will really teach those bastards at SEGA what for. And other times, you get the diehard fanboys who try to defend the most asinine business practices and sometimes they manage to be louder and win. Congratulations, people who defend always online DRM and online passes, you have made the world a shittier place.

Basically, it seems like we can't win any battles unless we get lucky and everyone gets pissed off about something important and begins bitching about it at the same time so they can drown out the defenders and get massive attention. Anyway I'm going to go buy Shadows of the Damned now, because Grasshopper Manufacture and Suda 51 are awesome and not giving EA money hasn't stopped them from trying to fuck me up the ass without lube in every game they put out after Shadows of the Damned.

I can't believe I once hated Jim, Great episode Jim I've actually thought something very similar recently.

The Great JT:
If that's the case, let me get on doing my part. Ahem.

"GODDAMN IT, WHERE THE HELL IS MY SEQUEL TO SKIES OF ARCADIA?! THAT GAME WAS GREAT!!"

Also, I like your hat, Jim.

Yeah it was!

And no, the the protagonists appearing in Valkyria Chronicles was not enough!

OT: A very interesting point, I'd never considered this, and what you say is definitely true.

Thank god for you, Jim.

Edit: Grammar clear up, it was horrible!

RaikuFA:
So any ideas on telling Capcom that I want AAI2 and MML3?

Should I make death threats, demand donations back and attack people who don't know what were talking about?

Well just refusing to buy unrelated games won't work, if anything it leave the company with less money to spend on games, less risks and new projects which might well be the game you want. Publishers aren't psychic they don't know why you didn't buy a game, to the execs looking at flow charts they will draw up totally different conclusions and probably the total opposite.

I've seen ppl passing up on doujin games like Exceed (100% indie) just because Capcom is helping out with the digital distro in the west, ie a publisher just publishing a game like in the old days.

If a game looks good on it's own merits (including the DRM, DLC etc) buy it, if not don't, sometimes whatever you do won't make any impact, all you can hope to do is create a big enough stink on the internet with enough ppl that the publisher has to sit up and take notice, and in 99% that'll never happen.

Keepeas:
Now the real question is how can we get the Call of Duty sequels to stop?

You can't as you probably aren't in the same demograghic and the games aren't aimed at you. You matter to COD as much as you matter to the ppl behind Twilight.

Shadowstar38:
Devil May Cry. That is all.

Also, this video may impower people to bitch more about things that are inconsequencail. Like the color scheme thing in Diablo 3 earlier in the video.

Oh please don't bring that up... the only argument for it ive seen are 16 year olds complaining that Dantes not 'cool' anymore.

HE WAS NEVER COOL TO BEGIN WITH!!! THATS WHAT MADE HIM FUNNY!!!

Still Dante, a shower wouldn't go a miss.

The Artificially Prolonged:

Irridium:
So... who's up for throwing the biggest damn tantrum in the world to get Crytek to make a new Timesplitters game?

Or to make Lucasarts make Battlefront 3?

Because I'd be down for that.

Oh I am!

Crytek, when are we getting Timesplitters 4?
Crytek, when are we getting Timesplitters 4?
Crytek, when are we getting Timesplitters 4?
Crytek, when are we getting Timesplitters 4?
Crytek, when are we getting Timesplitters 4?
Crytek, when are we getting Timesplitters 4?
Crytek, when are we getting Timesplitters 4?
Crytek, when are we getting Timesplitters 4?

By all means totally real robot who is in no way a human wearing boxes, allow me to help you *ahem*... WAAAAH, WAAAAAAAAAH, WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHH!!!

I wanna kill dimensional shamblers along side Captain Ash, Kalamari and Monkeys again.

I said pretty much the same thing about the wallet voters on a thread last week:

immortalfrieza:

The problem with the "just vote with your wallet" argument that everybody seems to love throwing around in threads like this is that there will always be millions of blind fanboy and casual lemmings that are willing to just snap up anything EA and it's acquired companies dish out, and for ever one of those lemmings that wises up and jump ship later, there will always be 10, 100, hell, maybe a 1000 more. The people smart enough voting with their wallets and being driven away are just a tiny blip on EA's radar, practically insignificant statistically. In other words, the wallet voters are ultimately meaningless, they might as well buy into whatever crap EA and companies like it do for all the difference it would ever make.

What EA fails to realize most is that they could perfectly keep both the lemmings AND the wallet voters as well by not being so dickish to their customers, insuring a nice, stable fanbase that would keep the company afloat for however long EA exists.

J-meMalone:

The Great JT:
If that's the case, let me get on doing my part. Ahem.

"GODDAMN IT, WHERE THE HELL IS MY SEQUEL TO SKIES OF ARCADIA?! THAT GAME WAS GREAT!!"

Also, I like your hat, Jim.

Yeah it was!

And no, the the protagonists appearing in Valkyria Chronicles was not enough!

OT: A very interesting point, I'd never considered this, and what you say is definitely true.

Thank god for you, Jim.

Edit: Grammar clear up, it was horrible!

Well both games probably won't ever get a sequel* now since SEGA went bust and is drastically cutting back on what games it makes and pulling out of AAA and boxed retail after these games it has in the pipeline are out.

*Discounting iphone/ browser games that is.

TrevHead:

RaikuFA:
So any ideas on telling Capcom that I want AAI2 and MML3?

Should I make death threats, demand donations back and attack people who don't know what were talking about?

Well just refusing to buy unrelated games won't work, if anything it leave the company with less money to spend on games, less risks and new projects which might well be the game you want. Publishers aren't psychic they don't know why you didn't buy a game, to the execs looking at flow charts they will draw up totally different conclusions and probably the total opposite.

I've seen ppl passing up on doujin games like Exceed (100% indie) just because Capcom is helping out with the digital distro in the west, ie a publisher just publishing a game like in the old days.

If a game looks good on it's own merits (including the DRM, DLC etc) buy it, if not don't, sometimes you have to realise that sometimes whatever you do won't make any impact, all you can hope to do is create a big enough stink on the internet with enough ppl that the publisher has to sit up and take notice, and in 99% that'll never happen.

But if I do, then it encourages Capcom to not release AA games. They use Okamiden as an excuse to not release AAI2.

You probably are wondering what I mean, well Capcom says since the first AAI worldwide sales(which was just JP and US.) were outdone by Okamidens(which was sold in every region) we don't get any more AA games. Logic, huh?

I couldn't give a shit, I haven't bought any Activision Blizzard titles for the past ~3-4 years, which meant that I also had to skip StarCraft 2 and Diablo III, which ended up being mostly the right decision in the end anyway and EA is on their best way there, having not bought Mass Effect 3 and likely looking VERY carefully before I buy anything by them in the future as long as they continue with their DLC practices, Origin-requirements and so on.

If some developers that supposedly make good games have to go under doing so, so be it.
If they want to have my money they know what they have to do, don't publish under Activision or EA, best go independent and stay away from really bad DRM and DLC-schemes like CDProjekt, Double Fine, Larian Studios, Valve etc. and increasingly more developers since KickStarter or at least publish under publishers that aren't led by marooning idiots like Activision, EA or Capcom (e.g. Paradox Interactive, CDProjekt, Square Enix or some of the ones with a "Neutral" rating like THQ, Take Two or Bethesda).

Irridium:
So... who's up for throwing the biggest damn tantrum in the world to get Crytek to make a new Timesplitters game?

Or to make Lucasarts make Battlefront 3?

Because I'd be down for that.

*foams at the mouth*

BAAAAAAAAAAAATTLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLEFROOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOONT 3!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Yes, I'm still pissed about that. *looks nostalgically at Battlefront 2*

Jimothy Sterling:

I love and have plenty of respect for the old DMC games, but I am all about this game.

1: I've never cared much for framerate. I understand the problem people have with 30fps and I respect it, but I personally do not give a shit. The difference between 30 and 60fps has never made me love or hate a game more.

2: So what?

3: Bullet time is meh, but again, I've never found it ruinous to an experience. I tend to not use them much myself.

4: A matter of pure taste, and not an objective mark of whether you love DMC or not.

Also, it does look to have legitimately good gameplay. As far as spectacle fighters at 30 frames go, it looks to be about the best one yet, if these most recent streams from Capcom-Unity are any example. I especially respect the lack of QTE implementation.

I'm still not giving Capcom money for it, as I am a rabid Devil May Cry fanboy and Capcom's been pulling entirely too many dick moves lately. I resent it for being a gross simplification of what was among the most fluid, technical combat systems ever devised for any 3D action game. I resent it for radically altering the personality of my all-time favorite game protagonist.

I don't resent people who enjoy it, though. I don't resent those who give it praise. I don't resent those who'll buy it. Enjoy yourselves, guys. It looks kinda fun.

However, you can bet your ass I resent the constant, sheeplike bleating that the fanbase is just pissed about the hair. Or that we're just pissed about change in general.

Also, I'm still a bit butthurt about DmC Dante's inclusion in a game titled Playstation All-Stars. Doesn't mean I'm boycotting it, but it does mean I know who my training dummy will be if the game turns out well.

EDIT:
Good episode, by the way. Sorry I didn't include that originally.

Good points.

I think I got a mixed message from this episode. Whinig is annoying behavior, but it gets results? Isn't that the kind of precedent people were afraid the ME3 ending debacle was setting for the industry?

Complaining about bad business is all well and good; however, if you can't show any commitment to back-up your complaint with some kind of enforcement (boycott, lawsuit, etc.), then the complaints just fall on deaf ears, especially when the company has record breaking profits as a result of the shitty business practice. Not much incentive for them to change if it causes their bottom-line to improve. Has EA, Activision, or Ubisoft made even one iota of movement toward changing their shitty business practices in light of all the complaints and hatred that gets heaped upon them for said shitty business practices? Not that I can tell.

Small companies that feel more vulnerable to severe revenue drops from disenfranchised fans may be more susceptible to make changes in light of a few vocal complaints, but these larger companies that, from all they've seen of gamers' purchasing behaviors, think they can just do whatever and any product they churn out will simply "print money" are not going to be at all swayed by the Internet Bitch & Whine Festival. They'll just come up with a rationale to justify their actions and continue what they are doing, making money, hand-over-fist, despite all the haterade being lobbed in their direction, because they know gamers will just keep on buying it. There's no incentive for them to change and no cost to simply maintaining business-as-usual.

Also, people who bitch and whine repeatedly about being mistreated, cheated, or lied to and still keep throwing their money at the person/company doing these things to them is called, at least in the olden days, A SUCKER.

RaikuFA:

But if I do, then it encourages Capcom to not release AA games. They use Okamiden as an excuse to not release AAI2.

You probably are wondering what I mean, well Capcom says since the first AAI worldwide sales(which was just JP and US.) were outdone by Okamidens(which was sold in every region) we don't get any more AA games. Logic, huh?

Ah I get you, well I suppose all you can do is talk about AA, about what great games they are to get others wanting another game. Or just buy a clone, the industry loves to jump on the bandwagon. Ignoring Okamiden won't solve anything it's a totally different game.

As someone who likes shmups and arcade beat em ups both super niche genres, it's annoying not seeing the games released that I want to play but I accept the fact that i'm in too niche a bracket to make an impact and just do what I can and try to keep those and the enjoyment of other games separate.

Considering the large amount of shmups on the 360 for the tiny demographic who buys them it's not so bad. Most STG fans (with money to burn) tend to just buying multiple copies of a game they want to support, plus the (good) DLC, merchandise and OST

PunkRex:

The Artificially Prolonged:

Irridium:
So... who's up for throwing the biggest damn tantrum in the world to get Crytek to make a new Timesplitters game?

Or to make Lucasarts make Battlefront 3?

Because I'd be down for that.

Oh I am!

Crytek, when are we getting Timesplitters 4?
Crytek, when are we getting Timesplitters 4?
Crytek, when are we getting Timesplitters 4?
Crytek, when are we getting Timesplitters 4?
Crytek, when are we getting Timesplitters 4?
Crytek, when are we getting Timesplitters 4?
Crytek, when are we getting Timesplitters 4?
Crytek, when are we getting Timesplitters 4?

By all means totally real robot who is in no way a human wearing boxes, allow me to help you *ahem*... WAAAAH, WAAAAAAAAAH, WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHH!!!

I wanna kill dimensional shamblers along side Captain Ash, Kalamari and Monkeys again.

Hey I'm a totally legit robot, its just that my operating system doesn't support metal armour. If only I could upgrade to some newer version with better hardware :P

Anyway I think we've made a good start, though I think we can be more whiny. Do we know anyone who can hold their breath for a long time or stamp their feet loudly?

Keepeas:
Now the real question is how can we get the Call of Duty sequels to stop?

Get everyone you know to stop buying.

Guys.

Nothing works. Boycotts don't work, whining doesn't work, absolutely nothing works.

Not until we get rid of publishers as a whole and give developers better ability to self-publish their IP.

I can cry an ocean over Mass Effect 3's ending and EA won't listen, no matter how many of us do it. BioWare remains in insufferable denial and clings to their imagined "artistic integrity". That tack-on patch of "extended cuts" didn't fix shit. They just don't CARE. EA will crush, burn, mix and repeat until they have their golden money palace, consumer opinion be damned.

WhiteTigerShiro:
For me the big lol boycott was the MASSIVE "Boycott MW2" group on Steam; day one, roughly half of them were playing. And you know, I think that's the biggest part of where the whole "Quit whining, you know you'll buy it anyway" thing came from anyway. We all have this image of people proclaiming that they're going to boycott a game, yet when the chips are down, they're standing in line outside of Gamestop for the midnight release.

That was about 12 people of the group which were currently online. So yeah about 1/2 the first page was of a group that was ~850 in size and of a boycott that got ~250,000 signature and saw the return of basically everything bar modding in the next instalment.

Just saiyin that was a high circumstantial picture especially given that if you go on VG chartz according to retail sales MW 2 PC sold more exactly less the boycott's worth of units compared to CoD 4.

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