The Big Picture: You Are Wrong About Sucker Punch, Part One

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jaymiechan:

Genuine Evil:

jaymiechan:

Nope, they clearly show that each lady in the fantasies are also real in the Asylum; they clearly show the stabbing death of one of them in the Asylum level. The only questionable bit is the Mentor guy as a bus driver, but also note that that section is color-toned differently than the rest of what is established as "reality" (the cold blue-green tone).

the reason she sees the mentor character at the end is because she was still in the dream , so was the whole final scene in the Asylum . also the bright colors at the end were nothing like the dark grim tones we were shown at the beginning and the only parts of the movie that had any bright colors were the dream sequences, I doubt it was the real world .

also Im pretty sure the girls were only shown after the lobotomy scene.( and even if they weren't you can still bullshit around that)

No, the Asylum scene at the end fit in with the themes and patterns for the different 'levels' of reality as well. It's only the bus scene that is more questionable. Also, the LADIES (not girls, they were adults) were shown just before the very first transition into the Brothel level of escape, where the Lobotomy scene becomes Rocket (i think) doing a scenario for the Brothel show.

Of course, the Brothel alone pisses me off, due to the fact that someone who has been sexually abused does not escape that sort of thing via a scenario where THEY ARE ONLY THERE AS A SEX OBJECT.

I think you missed the point there. The one who's escaping to the brothel isn't the protagonist, it's the audience. You know, because it's ok to rape a young girl in that case.

Also, the bus scene happenned in both the brothel and the asylum.

Abandon4093:

Revolutionaryloser:

Abandon4093:
The key difference between Starship Troopers and Sucker Punch is that ST shows the reality behind the propaganda. Everything right down the enemy they're fighting is hyperbole. The film is obviously satire to anyone who has even minor knowledge of how propaganda works. Which should be everyone.

SP just does everything that it's supposedly saying shouldn't be done, without a hint of shame. Saying "look how sexy they all are" and then bopping you on the nose with a newspaper and saying "you shouldn't be looking" isn't clever or on the bone.

It's hypocritical.

They're doing everything with a strait face, what they're supposed to be taking the mick out of. You can attribute all the parallels that you want to it, it's still doing one thing and saying another. And then saying you're a bad person for watching it or whatever.

What doesn't help it is that the film is actually just poorly executed. The fight scenes are boring, the girls are obnoxious, the situation they're in is so heavy handed and un-organic (not to mention completely irrelevant to what they're supposed to be aping) I have a hard time buying their 'pain'. It's just a mess.

But is there really a point at which the film says "look how sexy they all are"? I missed it 3 times. I mean, obviously we know they're supposed to be sexy, but are they? I didn't see any tits, any asses, any risque poses or clothes choices; any sexual innuendos, any overtly sexual lines or noises. They have some makeup on. That's about it.

They're dressed in fitishised outfits and dance for patrons. Half of the action scenes have them in freaking school girl uniforms or some shit.

Do the math.

They don't dance in the film. One of them has a schoolgirl uniform. The outfits are pretty normal, if a bit glamorous, in comparison to what women tend to wear in real life.

Great breakdown Bob. Haven't seen the movie yet, so I don't know if I would agree with your interpretation, but you make a compelling case for the film. This film's message reminds me a lot of Cabin in the Woods and Spec Ops: The Line, both of which were also critical of their supposed target audiences. :P

I'm sorry, but to quote George Lucas, " A special effect with out a story is a pretty boring thing." also, it took you this long to say why its good (to you)? I'll pass.

jaymiechan:
My biggest problem, though? The opening scene nearly triggered me. The abusive stepdad? There's obvious cues that the daughters were abused, going to the point of sexual when the shooting occurs, and sexual abuse going to an escapist fantasy that involves being sexually objectified and feasibly abused more? That's ridiculous.

Actually, it isn't. "feasibly" means it could -- but it didn't. So the fantasy is her being in that same objectified situation, or arguably even a worse one, and yet having the power to conquer within it regardless. Entirely appropriate for a fantasy there.

Then there is the point that the film, regardless of whatever lofty goals it might have had, revels in the very thing it is attempting to satirize. i mean, for cripes sake, you don't even find out any of the names of the women! AKA a very humanizing element, and something that could have cemented, even if held as a reveal for the end.

Again, point missed. When viewed as a critique of the film's audience, humanizing the girls serves no purpose, as it gives the objectifiers an easy out.. "Oh maybe it was taking the piss, but at the end we could identify with them, so we're not that bad.. " By leaving them nameless ciphers, that rationalization is destroyed.

Abandon4093:
They're dressed in fitishised outfits and dance for patrons. Half of the action scenes have them in freaking school girl uniforms or some shit.

Do the math.

They are dressed up in fetishized outfits but its so over the top that its not actually sexy.

TorchofThanatos:
Just a quick note: Having to explain what the hell the movie was trying to do means that the movie failed in explaining it.

I just hate artsy carp like what this movie tried. I didn't really get it nor do I care to. If this movie really did try to go for that big of a message well it failed. So why bother explain it?

To be clear I under got what was explain in this episode but I have no idea what Bob has planned for next week.

Having to explain to some people what the movie was trying to say does not mean that the movie fail just that it was not made for the enjoyment of those people, it was made for the enjoyment the people who did get it.

zvate:
If a tree falls in the forest but know one gets the message then that message really doesn't mean squat.

Just because you did not get the message does not mean that no one did.
Its like Funny Games a movie about 2 psychos that take a family hostage at a cabin and kill them while chastising the audience for wanting to see a movie about 2 psychos that take a family hostage at a cabin and kill them, many people did not get it, but it was not made for their enjoyment, actually the original was not made to be enjoyed at all.

Sucker Punch was boring. The frenetic action scenes were repetitive drivel which tried to use CGI and quick editing tricks to mask subpar choreography and uninspired framing. I don't care whether or not they were supposed to be repetitive drivel: I was still bored as fuck watching them. The excellent (and decidedly not fun) Chinese film Mr. Zhao contains a ten minute take of two people sitting on a badly lit sofa and having the same conversation over and over again, and that was still more interesting than anything in Sucker Punch.

As for the message? It's bullshit. Insulting, offensive bullshit. Are any of these movies feminist? Who cares? If Robin Morgan, Jessica Valenti, Andrea Dworkin, Catherine Breillat, Mary Wollstonecraft, Ozy Frantz, Noah Brand and Clarisse Thorn are all feminists (and that's only a very limited selection), I'm not sure how meaningful that adjective can actually be. The message Sucker Punch is pushing is the idea that having a sexual fantasy (specifically, a man having a sexual fantasy about a woman) is not only inherently wrong and harmful, but defines the person having it and their relations with others. It goes on to equate those fantasies (and here I would like to point out that the film specifically takes aim fantasies of men considered socially undesirable and thus already easy targets) with real acts of institutionalized abuse and violence. This is a blatant false equivalency and it plays to the romantic fantasies of the eternal female victim at the mercy of a cruel, brutish world that are far more insidiously patriarchal in their own right than any of the layered delusions. As a real life victim of institutionalized abuse committed by (mostly female) social workers on account of my mental condition, I was deeply offended by Sucker Punch and the shallow pandering drivel it attempts to pass off as a deconstruction. To be brutally honest, the film feels like an outdated separatist piece from thirty years ago more than anything else.

MovieBob, as someone who sat down to watch this film with my friends and was the only person to "get" what this film was trying to do, i'm really grateful you've made these video's.

Suckerpunch is an incredibly clever and brave film, at least now i can feel more confident in explaining why that's the case. Personally i found the plot and action sequences repetitive, but i can see why Zack Snyder wanted to organise the plot that way. It's far from a perfect film, but the complex and clever message it contains makes up for that to a significant degree.

In the next episode i hope Moviebob talks more about the "pimp" character in the film, who i thought was a very interesting character, and in particular the final end scene when, if my memory serves me right, he tries to force a brain lobotomy on her. Lot's of interesting symbolism right there i thought.

I'm copying this from the comment section of the video because it's very appropiate:

"I don't like the idea of this movie. Basically it says that enjoying stripteases and fanservice is bad and makes you a bad person. I disagree.

There's nothing wrong with having a normal male libido"

To this I add: the parallel just doesn't exist. In the "real world" (of the movie) these girls are practically incarcerated in a mental asylum that might as well be a prison in order to get brainwashed and scammed out of their heritage.

Strippers offer a legal service for a price, voluntarily and out of their free will. And the strippers don't get harmed in their job in any way, mental or physical (well, most of the time, you see how those poles can be slippy sometimes..)

MovieBob:
You Are Wrong About Sucker Punch
MovieBob delivers a Sucker Punch to your senses.

What exactly makes me wrong about it?
I do "get" the movie, but I don't think its good.

Certainly the most antagonistic video title that you've used Bob. I didn't like Sucker Punch because it falls into the classic trap of being pro-female rather than pro-human, so I was expecting a rather different debate when I looked at the title. Still, I appreciate the objectivity of the video and enjoyed it immensely.

I agree with most of your points about Sucker Punch so far, Bob.

You still suck for your arrogance and ignorant insults during the overall ME3 ending situation.

You know, I haven't seen Sucker Punch and I still have no desire to see it. Watching this is probably the closest I will ever get to seeing that movie.

So instead of it being a shallow attempt at getting young males to gawk at the action girls in lingerie, it's a deep attempt at getting young males to gawk at the action girls in lingerie and feel bad about it? Cool.

Although I want to know what was up with that ending? Why was it that other women's story rather than "babydoll".

I will simply direct people to the Everyone is Jesus in Purgatory trope on TV Tropes for why I really disagree with Bob on this one. Just swap out "English Teacher" with "Film Critic" and you've got pretty much my exact thoughts.

Zack Synder's movies seem to have a theme of being exceptionally complex, multi-level analyses, at least to the point that the message is further down than most people realize. The same thing was apparently the case in his Dawn of the Dead remake - it was apparently intended to be as much a consumer satire as Romero's (actually a better one, he sounded really pretentious about that, I'll say), yet most just take it as a zombie action flick.

I dunno, I agree that all of that symbolism sounds cool, but the fact that I didn't get any of it until now says something too. I mean... Is there a point in taking a shot at somebody in some cleaver subtle way so subtle that they never actually notice?
I do like what the film is saying (now that I know) but I still think it was kinda "meh".
And I do think that discussion on whether or not showing the women being empowered excuses their supposed exploitation really does excuse their supposed exploitation, is a conversation that needs to be had at some point, cuz in the end... Yeah, that's all I saw. Another silly action sexploitation film, and the fact that I didn't like that about and STILL didn't see it's message says something about the quality of the film I think.

Revolutionaryloser:

They don't dance in the film. One of them has a schoolgirl uniform. The outfits are pretty normal, if a bit glamorous, in comparison to what women tend to wear in real life.

image

image

LUL WUT?

ritchards:
So... this is another one of those things whereby the only way to win is to not participate?

No moreso than any other forum thread on any website on the internet. Nothing productive will come of this except that some people might end up crossing lines and getting warnings/banninnation, which may or may not be a good thing. Other than that, you're going to have the usual "I loved it, you all suck." "I hated it, you all suck." "I didn't watch it, you all suck." "I dont speek Anglich, u all suk." and "Do you want a longer penis?" interspersed with clever comments about their captcha's (mine is "meat and drink", which could be rather appropriate as threads like this are the meat and drink of sites which rely on page views to make money) and links to other sites with reviews and analysis that posters like better than Film Robbies.

That it hit more than 180 in the first few hours of being released pretty much says it all.

Darknacht:

Abandon4093:
They're dressed in fitishised outfits and dance for patrons. Half of the action scenes have them in freaking school girl uniforms or some shit.

Do the math.

They are dressed up in fetishized outfits but its so over the top that its not actually sexy.

I think about 95% of the people who enjoyed the movie would like a word with you.

In other news: Bob has a video with the Catch Phrase "You are Wrong."

Clearly this is going to be well reasoned, respectful analysis and won't involve any poisoning of the well at all...

Really, Bob? I haven't even watched it yet and I'm already irritated at your opinion.

Someone kindly remove Mr. Chipman's head from his own sphincter. I liked him better before he got such an ego.

Well Bob, you are going to get me to actually watch this movie now.

Abandon4093:

Revolutionaryloser:

They don't dance in the film. One of them has a schoolgirl uniform. The outfits are pretty normal, if a bit glamorous, in comparison to what women tend to wear in real life.

I dunno. If you get turned on by seeing a woman standing completely still while sulking or by a woman in shorts, you must have a hard time walking out into the street. (note: I'm using sarcasm.)

Abandon4093:

Darknacht:

Abandon4093:
They're dressed in fitishised outfits and dance for patrons. Half of the action scenes have them in freaking school girl uniforms or some shit.

Do the math.

They are dressed up in fetishized outfits but its so over the top that its not actually sexy.

I think about 95% of the people who enjoyed the movie would like a word with you.

He's right. It's not actually sexy. It's like a satire of what sexy looks like.

Revolutionaryloser:

Abandon4093:

Revolutionaryloser:

They don't dance in the film. One of them has a schoolgirl uniform. The outfits are pretty normal, if a bit glamorous, in comparison to what women tend to wear in real life.

I dunno. If you get turned on by seeing a woman standing completely still while sulking or by a woman in shorts, you must have a hard time walking out into the street. (note: I'm using sarcasm.)

Shorts =/= Lingerie with fishnets.

Whether or not you or I find the clothing arousing/attractive is not the point. That's the obvious intent of them. They aren't glamorised ordinary dress and you're being intentionally disingenuous by saying they are.

They're fetishised outfits by the films own point.

And I didn't say they danced extensively in the film, just that the dancing was a theme and therefore present.

Revolutionaryloser:

Abandon4093:

Darknacht:
They are dressed up in fetishized outfits but its so over the top that its not actually sexy.

I think about 95% of the people who enjoyed the movie would like a word with you.

He's right. It's not actually sexy. It's like a satire of what sexy looks like.

Sorry, I'll just defer to you on what people are allowed to find sexy now. Seeing as you're obviously thee authority on it and it's not like attraction is a totally subjective concept or anything.

Revolutionaryloser:

Storm Dragon:

sinsfire:

Not everything ends happily. The ending to 1984 was perfect for the themes it was attempting to convey. I would recommend against reading "A Brave New World" (book) but you may like Terry Gilliams "Brazil" (moive)

As for the ending in Sucker Punch I think there may be more to it then that.

I'm not saying that endings like that are bad, it's just that I personally dislike them.

I think the idea of most of them dying has a lot to do with:
a) realism: the whole plan was childish and stupid which is a jab at empowerment fantasies.
b) you can't defeat misogyny with objectification: Babydoll tried to use her own body as a tool to free her own body. In the end, that wasn't the right solution.

It's not most of them dying that bothers me, it's the protagonist ending up as a lobotomized vegetable.

Abandon4093:

Revolutionaryloser:

Abandon4093:

I dunno. If you get turned on by seeing a woman standing completely still while sulking or by a woman in shorts, you must have a hard time walking out into the street. (note: I'm using sarcasm.)

Shorts =/= Lingerie with fishnets.

Whether or not you or I find the clothing arousing/attractive is not the point. That's the obvious intent of them. They aren't glamorised ordinary dress and you're being intentionally disingenuous by saying they are.

They're fetishised outfits by the films own point.

And I didn't say they danced extensively in the film, just that the dancing was a theme and therefore present.

I'm just going to post the first 3 google image results for sexy. If you can't see the difference, I obviously can't change your mind.
image
image
image

Storm Dragon:

Revolutionaryloser:

Storm Dragon:

I'm not saying that endings like that are bad, it's just that I personally dislike them.

I think the idea of most of them dying has a lot to do with:
a) realism: the whole plan was childish and stupid which is a jab at empowerment fantasies.
b) you can't defeat misogyny with objectification: Babydoll tried to use her own body as a tool to free her own body. In the end, that wasn't the right solution.

It's not most of them dying that bothers me, it's the protagonist ending up as a lobotomized vegetable.

That's what she gets for turning herself into a sex object, literally becoming an object.

Oh look, Bob being an elitist, what a surprise.

capatcha: Unlimited wishes - If only.

Abandon4093:

Revolutionaryloser:

Abandon4093:

I think about 95% of the people who enjoyed the movie would like a word with you.

He's right. It's not actually sexy. It's like a satire of what sexy looks like.

Sorry, I'll just defer to you on what people are allowed to find sexy now. Seeing as you're obviously thee authority on it and it's not like attraction is a totally subjective concept or anything.

And "fetishized outfits" isn't a totally subjective concept? Good to know.

Abandon4093:

Revolutionaryloser:

Abandon4093:

I think about 95% of the people who enjoyed the movie would like a word with you.

He's right. It's not actually sexy. It's like a satire of what sexy looks like.

Sorry, I'll just defer to you on what people are allowed to find sexy now. Seeing as you're obviously thee authority on it and it's not like attraction is a totally subjective concept or anything.

Overly bleached hair with the roots showing, silly looking pig tails, the ill-fitted cloths of a child, and overdone makeup, yeah thats sexy to some people but everything is sexy to someone.

Markunator:
I'm sorry, Bob, but I still won't watch this film. These guys' views on movies tend to mean more to me than yours (no offense):

This... has to be the most annoying movie review I've listened to. And from the little that I could stand (I couldn't stand his "Zack Snyder" voice after the third minute) it sounded like he is exactly the kind of person that CinemaRobert is talking about in his video. Not only that, the review was as much about the reviewer bashing Zack Snyder for Watchman and 300 with laughable opinions as it was to bash Sucker Punch. Even allowing for the British media's habit of communicating via insults ("This is rubbish!" being the English equivalent for "I quite enjoy this breakfast, thank you very much." as an example), this was so over the top that it's just plain not worth taking anything he has to say seriously.

Markunator:
other three

I might go through these videos later, but if they're anything like the first one then probably not before CinemaRobert's next Sucker Punch video comes out.

Revolutionaryloser:

Abandon4093:

Revolutionaryloser:

I dunno. If you get turned on by seeing a woman standing completely still while sulking or by a woman in shorts, you must have a hard time walking out into the street. (note: I'm using sarcasm.)

Shorts =/= Lingerie with fishnets.

Whether or not you or I find the clothing arousing/attractive is not the point. That's the obvious intent of them. They aren't glamorised ordinary dress and you're being intentionally disingenuous by saying they are.

They're fetishised outfits by the films own point.

And I didn't say they danced extensively in the film, just that the dancing was a theme and therefore present.

I'm just going to post the first 3 google image results for sexy. If you can't see the difference, I obviously can't change your mind.

There is no one representation of sexy you freaking fascist.

Sucker Punch clearly used tropes to evoke a sexy quality to their stars. The clothing they chose was intentionally provocative because they had to be for the films own meaning. And an over the top nature has never been the antithesis of sexy. It actually usually walks hand in hand with it.

You're arguing a ridiculous point, if you didn't find the films stars sexy then that's you. That doesn't mean that no one would of, especially since that was the obvious point of them wearing the clothes they did.

The main reason I liked this movie was because there was something more to it, but I could never quite put it in words.

Now I can.

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