Jimquisition: Anita Sarkeesian - The Monster Gamers Created

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Gender and video games is a debate that needs to happen every so often as society evolves. Since video games are part of the entertainment field it's just as legit to talk about women in video games as it is to discus how gay character are shown on TV.

Sadly the gender in video games debate gets dominated by who can cause the biggest stink rather than who has really good points. There are people who can make excellent points but those people are ignored in favor who can troll or claim the mantle of victimized the loudest.

daibakuha:
You see, here's the thing, some dudes talking over still images on youtube aren't accurate sources of information. And I asked you to prove she spammed her videos on 4chan, which hasn't been done yet.

If you call this investigative journalism, I'd hate to see what you would call actual journalism

Here's a little newsflash for you: just saying they are not accurate sources of information doesn't mean you are right. I'm mainly talking about the investigative journalism videos here. You think something's wrong with them? Then enlighten us. Right now, it just seems like you are all upset because you couldn't handle legitimate criticisms.

GloatingSwine:

bunji:

She isn't the first one to raise this point ladies and gentlemen, she just happens to be an incredibly snarky cunt, the kind that spells woman "womyn" and thinks that electric guitars should be banned for being phallic powersymbols. And, referring to your overwhelming empirical material, being a cunt is a good way to get yelled at on the net.

DioWallachia:

1)Anita makes videos about POINTING OUT things that are "sexist". That is all she does, as soon a woman gets ANY kind of bad treatment, then its sexist. Nevermind if it is for a character development arc or for the theme/context the work of medium is trying to tell. Pointing out is NOT the same as EXPLAINING IN DETAIL why is it sexist, she doesnt even TRY to make a good argument and she controls what comments will stay in the videos on Youtube, regardless if they have legitimate criticism about her "work" (sarcastic quotes)

It's cute that either of you think that anyone involved in the shitfest surrounding Anita has actually watched any of her existing videos, let alone responded to the content or tone therein.

Naive, but cute.

Here's the reality: None of the people that spewed the immature internet bile that made this a news story have watched or read anything Anita Sarkeesian has written. They have responded en masse to the mere concept that videogames be criticised for being sexist, and responded in such a way as to reinforce and underscore that point at every turn.

And this is what Jim's video is about. No-one at all in any of this has ever addressed the content of the existing Feminist Frequency videos or blogs, at no point has the internet hate machine focused on anything Anita Sarkeesian has said or written, it has all been about her as a person, and it has predominantly been focused specifically on her gender.

The upshot of that is that it is now impossible to discuss the content of her work, because the tempestuous vortex of stupidity that is internet gaming discussion will invariably drag the topic of discussion immediately to the person not the argument.

1) Surrendering right now with the amount of people that has already made videos like i posted, and that have made ABSOLUTELY clear how her work isnt doing any progress would be really fucking stupid. Its only forward until even the TROLL take it in the ass and keep their stupid mysoginistic opinions in their thick skulls.

2)A)She DELIVERATELY posted the videos on 4Chan where the worst of the Internet is. She invited the trolls to harass her so she can prove a "point" to the journalist that she is an innocent woman under attack. This 2 facts are reinforced by her Kickstarter video being the only video where she DOESNT have the "Video Poster Approbal" like all the others, meaning that she let the hate flow on purpose just for this once to have "evidence" of the gamers being a bunch of mysoginistics.
B)The Journalist picked off this vocal minority and MULTIPLIED its effects, as expected since its their job, and presented it to us without the proper research by focusing on the "They hate her because its a woman having an opinion" (as explained in the videos already posted) THEY were the ones who created this monster, not the gamers. The discussion was divided as soon people believed that it was all because she was a woman and gamers hated her for it, a divicion that the Journalist were responsible.

And now JIM says it was OUR fault? Whose fault is, when you can even present your facts right when its YOUR job? YOU Jim and the others picked off the bait made by Anita and if YOU leaved her alone, all she would have is the trolls that she invited and then.............nothing. Because without someone to NAIVELY devour every scrap of information that she tosses, she would still be a nobody on the Internet.

Nice job, heroes.

C)You forgot the most important aspect: Prove it. You say that this minority actually is more bigger than it is but how do you know that? is something that you quantified yourself or something that JIM told you?

gamingqueen:
Jim is brushing off all those who are "critiquing her work rather than insulting her" as homophobes, haters and sexists. I still think her perception of most female characters in video games is off. I don't think she's contributing to feminism by that video game. Wanna help feminists? How about protesting the ban on abortion and regulating uterus? Call for equal pay? Or protest anything real? Or even use video games with blatant and clear sexism as an example? The matter of whether a video game has sexist tones or offensive is subjective and I think it's unintentional 99% of the time. I don't think people were angry at her because she's a woman who started a fund for her project, I think it's because her perception is extremely off when it comes to women in games specially the examples she used in her project as Samus. That what angered people the most. Again, let us not dismiss anyone who does't agree with her as a hater or sexist or immature or "trying to silence a woman". That's not the case at all Jim.

Its more like: Giving voice to the trolls that were harassing her because she posted the videos on 4Chan in the first place (even before her real Kickstarter video appeared)

That is what TROLLS are good for, Jim. If you keep focusing on them then of course it makes EVERYONE look like shite. In fact, wasnt THIS website the one who told us about the Anita incident in the first place? that one article where it focused on the fact that there were death treats and rape INSTEAD on researching why such anger exist?

We didn't create her, you did JIM. You and your friends focused all the attention on the WORST aspects of the backlash against her and now YOU accuse us to wipe the blame??? Opss

Blue Ranger:

daibakuha:
You see, here's the thing, some dudes talking over still images on youtube aren't accurate sources of information. And I asked you to prove she spammed her videos on 4chan, which hasn't been done yet.

If you call this investigative journalism, I'd hate to see what you would call actual journalism

Here's a little newsflash for you: just saying they are not accurate sources of information doesn't mean you are right. I'm mainly talking about the investigative journalism videos here. You think something's wrong with them? Then enlighten us. Right now, it just seems like you are all upset because you couldn't handle legitimate criticisms.

And You sound like someone being defensive because I called you out on your bullshit. I want first party sources, not some guy talking into a shitty microphone over still images. I want either actual journalists or actual data, not any of this armchair bullshit you call a source.

Youtube videos aren't accurate sources of information.

Blue Ranger:

daibakuha:
You see, here's the thing, some dudes talking over still images on youtube aren't accurate sources of information. And I asked you to prove she spammed her videos on 4chan, which hasn't been done yet.

If you call this investigative journalism, I'd hate to see what you would call actual journalism

Here's a little newsflash for you: just saying they are not accurate sources of information doesn't mean you are right. I'm mainly talking about the investigative journalism videos here. You think something's wrong with them? Then enlighten us. Right now, it just seems like you are all upset because you couldn't handle legitimate criticisms.

The only way HE would learn at this point is if he goes to 4Chan and finds the post itself so he can compare the time frame when it was posted to the one of Youtube and Kickstarter, assuming Anita hasn't deleted the post herself to erase all evidence. If that is the case, then all we can hope is for the trolls or someone else took a picture of the post and save it somewhere.

I think she STILL lurks around 4Chan looking for trolls on her Twitter. Because a functional member of society ALWAYS looks around there for incriminating evidence, right? is not like the Trolls are there for the lulz, making noise just for the sake of it............oh wait.

Can anyone tell me the title of the game showed around 6:04? Looks fun.

I have no problem with people wanting more options for playing as females, and I agree that attempting to just throw on sex appeal as a definition of a character is shallow and lazy.
But... why attack Ico?
Never mind. I don't really care that much.

daibakuha:

Blue Ranger:

daibakuha:
You see, here's the thing, some dudes talking over still images on youtube aren't accurate sources of information. And I asked you to prove she spammed her videos on 4chan, which hasn't been done yet.

If you call this investigative journalism, I'd hate to see what you would call actual journalism

Here's a little newsflash for you: just saying they are not accurate sources of information doesn't mean you are right. I'm mainly talking about the investigative journalism videos here. You think something's wrong with them? Then enlighten us. Right now, it just seems like you are all upset because you couldn't handle legitimate criticisms.

And You sound like someone being defensive because I called you out on your bullshit. I want first party sources, not some guy talking into a shitty microphone over still images. I want either actual journalists or actual data, not any of this armchair bullshit you call a source.

Youtube videos aren't accurate sources of information.

The Feminist Frecuency videos are on Youtube, just to let you know :D

Also, you are using and Argument For Authority, a fallacy. You think that ONLY someone with authority has more priority over people who dont, REGARDLESS if they have a good argument.

The Escapist fucked up big time when they THEMSELVES posted that article that mentioned the hate but not the CAUSE of it, or even WHERE it came from:
http://www.escapistmagazine.com/news/view/117848-Kickstarter-Video-Project-Attracts-Misogynist-Horde

If that is your seal of proper research then congratulations, your opinions are supported by idiots. And now they have Jim to put the blame on us when we didn't even know who the fuck was Anita until they spoke.

EDIT:Lets not forget that, when the time of need comes, the "Journalists" that you love so much will bend over when the money of the advertisement tells them. Remember the amount of ads that ALL the gaming sites had when ME3 came out and the 10/10 scores they gave to it? I wonder if those ENORMOUS ADVERTISEMENTS OF ME3 had something to do with they impeccable scores?? Nah, just my imagination.

I'm actually glad Jim brought this up because I had no idea it was even a thing. But this advice can be leveled at similar situations. I think the general message is "do not feed the Internet Trolls." No matter who they are. I thought this was a lesson the internet learned a long time ago?

As for gaming online, I just do the sensible thing... I mute everyone that's not on my friends list. On every system. No matter what. It's really not that hard. My friends and I always use party chat. We have girls that play with us, but most people just think they're 12 year old boys. Lots of bullshit ensued when they found out they weren't, so we just section off the dickheads and think of them as bots.

Legion:
As for underestimating the "average" gamer, I am not sure I entirely agree that those kind of games are really popular enough to represent the average gamer, yes they have enough popularity to justify companies continuing to make it, but they are not the kind of game that are really discussed far and wide by gamers in general.

Not a perfect example, but I do not actually know anybody who owns games such as Dead or Alive, or any other game where women are basically just there to ogle at. Not a single person.

Well, while DoA is a good example, it isn't the only kind of sexism - just one of the most blatant. Halo, Gears of War, and Call of Duty have their own brand of sexism that I honestly find worst than giggle physics.

And my comments about average were more to do with the widespread reactions to Ms. Sarkessian.

On the other hand, I may be feeling particularly critical of gamers at the moment because of how upset I've gotten over this whole Sarkessian incident. No, wait, upset is the wrong word - disappointed fits better. Actively disappointed? Bitterly disappointed? I think I need a better adverb.

Someone I never heard before and someone I will quickly forget because I am gamer: I play games and I talk about games with others I give even a single @$%^ about....and that's saying a lot for the people I give a single #$%^ over.

I don't object to Anita Sarkeesian because she is a woman or because she is writing about feminism in the context of gaming. I just think her work is terrible, regardless of its subject matter. THIS is where the gaming 'press' failed to make a distinction; yes there was a lot of face-palm worthy hate and this is inexcusable but at the same time there was a lot of legitimate criticism of her project, its aims, it's quality and her intentions with the money. There was a point very separate to the misogyny that was going on.

In recent weeks it had turned out the project isn't even close to starting to be underway yet due to her not known what to do next. She is incompetent. The ethics of raising that much money and the series collapsing into nothing are very questionable to say the least.

She is a hack, a potential fraud. She could be doing a 'documentary' about anything and i would still raise the same objections.

daibakuha:

You see, here's the thing, some dudes talking over still images on youtube aren't accurate sources of information. And I asked you to prove she spammed her videos on 4chan, which hasn't been done yet.

If you call this investigative journalism, I'd hate to see what you would call actual journalism

The best I can do is this:
image

I can't find any reference to this image that predates the alleged Sarkeesian spamming 4chan incident. There are later uses of it by someone likely faking being Sarkeesian trolling around in /mu/ though there's no guarantee.

That's certainly a photo of her. If you can find where it could have been taken from prior to the spamming then I withdraw my comment, but yeah...it's a picture of her, and it doesn't seem to be on the 'net prior to this mess, which makes you think (specifically that she either took it for this purpose or else someone who had access to her or received the photo from her did the spamming -- someone in her "camp" as it were), the other threads used an assortment of other images, as can be seen in some of the youtube videos discussing this.

I would agree that Anita Sarkeesian is a victim, in the way someone poking a bear with a stick and getting mauled would make someone a victim. She does this on purpose and she does it for money. She's more sexist than most men. I'm not going to go to the extreme of making a game about her or writing rape comments about her, but I don't feel bad for her because for the most part she has it coming.

What`s the game shown from 6.04 till 6.12? Looks like old school arcade fun. That`s all that interests me for this weeks episode.
I don`t have and won`t contribute to the whole feminism/sexism debate. The whole ME3 ending threads are way more fun than this, at least those are about gaming.

Bara_no_Hime:

Father Time:
Oh and Yahtzee's extra punctuation columns (which I'm betting you're getting it from) aren't nearly as popular as Sarkesian became, so less people read it and the criticism of Sarkesian gets made a lot more times than the criticisms of Yahtzee because of it.

Actually, I got it from his video on Shadow of the Colossus. He talks about Team ICO's views of gender politics in both ICO and SotC (and draws a picture of the female character in a dress, chained to a kitchen).

Father Time:
Yahtzee isn't condescending to gaming as an art form or as a hobby, when he exaggerates he does so for comedy and while he does criticize gaming he never acts like it's a worthless den of immaturity.

I have not yet watched any of her videos, having been given no good reason to do so. However, from a cursory glance over her Kickstarter, she seems to like video games, but dislike their portrayal of women, and the gamers who perpetuate those issues.

Maybe she's different in her actual videos. I don't know. Her Kickstarter talks about "redesigning" a few popular female characters in gaming, and that sounds like a positive, creative idea to me.

And anyway, it doesn't matter either way - the point is that when Yahtzee said it, people laughed. When she said it, her LIFE was threatened.

Maybe I'm remembering them differently.

Anyway I thought the threats were just over her kickstarter. The Ico bit happened after it.

Father Time:

Even if he was saying it for a laugh (and he says everything for a laugh, but that doesn't make any of what he says less true) and she was saying it out of spite, that still doesn't justify the extremely different reactions. Reacting differently to the same comment said by people of differing genders is the definition of sexism.

But the genders isn't the only difference between them. Hell they didn't really say them the same IIRC.

Father Time:

Every gamer who wrote her hate-mail or posted non-intellectual attacks on her is only proving her point. This whole affair has made me agree MORE with her - I honestly didn't believe the gaming community was this bad. She has proven that it is.

I don't get why everyone acts like youtube is a gaming community.

Father Time:
Maybe I'm remembering them differently.
Anyway I thought the threats were just over her kickstarter. The Ico bit happened after it.

I first heard of her during the ICO bit, so I guess I focus on that. I glanced over the Kickstarter and it didn't seem particularly offensive to me. Didn't look at it indepth, though, so I can't say for certain. It just seems to be funding more of her standard videos as far as I could tell.

Father Time:
But the genders isn't the only difference between them. Hell they didn't really say them the same IIRC.

But it is the difference that the threats focused on. Sure, someone can hate her for many reasons - but those that posted such said in their threats that they hated her because she was a feminist and that they wanted to rape her (or wanted her to be raped by someone else).

I don't see why this is hard to understand. Sure, the ones who attacked her for being Jewish were racist, but the greater majority were attacking her as a woman, for being a woman.

When people criticize Yahtzee, they call him a bad journalist, a bad critic, or a bad comedian. Those are intellectual criticism (perhaps badly phrased, but still). They don't threaten to rape him. They don't say he should be physically harmed and killed for what he said.

Father Time:
I don't get why everyone acts like youtube is a gaming community.

I'm acting like the Escapist forums are a gaming community. Aren't we, members of the Escapist forums, a gaming community? I didn't look at her youtube comments, but just what I've seen here horrifies me. Perhaps not many here are threatening to rape her (or if they have, they've likely been Warned already) but people are defending those that did and that shocks and sickens me.

The only time I ever hear about her is when she's talked about on this site. Every time I hear about her, and how much she's profited from all this, I wonder if anyone ever looked into the original batch of dirty comments to see if they were real or not. Once the fire is going it's easy to draw in idiots to add to it, but it seems unlikely for a relative unknown to generate this fire spontaneous. I'd create fake accounts to flame myself all day if it got me thousands of dollars and made me a sympathetic internet sensation.

DioWallachia:

1) Surrendering right now with the amount of people that has already made videos like i posted, and that have made ABSOLUTELY clear how her work isnt doing any progress would be really fucking stupid. Its only forward until even the TROLL take it in the ass and keep their stupid mysoginistic opinions in their thick skulls.

This doesn't even make sense. Like as English. Could you tidy up your argument so that there appears to be one?

2)A)She DELIVERATELY posted the videos on 4Chan where the worst of the Internet is. She invited the trolls to harass her so she can prove a "point" to the journalist that she is an innocent woman under attack. This 2 facts are reinforced by her Kickstarter video being the only video where she DOESNT have the "Video Poster Approbal" like all the others, meaning that she let the hate flow on purpose just for this once to have "evidence" of the gamers being a bunch of mysoginistics.

Can you provide evidence of this? Not just a screencap of 4chan, but evidence that it was Anita Sarkeesian that posted about her kickstarter on it. 4chan is, remember, famously lax about user identity. Of course you fucking can't, but you're going to throw accusations anyway, aren't you?

B)The Journalist picked off this vocal minority and MULTIPLIED its effects, as expected since its their job, and presented it to us without the proper research by focusing on the "They hate her because its a woman having an opinion" (as explained in the videos already posted) THEY were the ones who created this monster, not the gamers. The discussion was divided as soon people believed that it was all because she was a woman and gamers hated her for it, a divicion that the Journalist were responsible.

Did you catch the part of Jim's video where he pointed out that witout rape and death threats made there would be nothing for journalists to report on. And frankly the scale and nature of the response is a legitemate news story, of such hate campaigns are shitty laws made after all. Journalists didn't make this monster, they just pointed out that gamers are a bunch of colossal fuckwits to the vast surprise of absolutely no-one with an attention span.

C)You forgot the most important aspect: Prove it. You say that this minority actually is more bigger than it is but how do you know that? is something that you quantified yourself or something that JIM told you?

Go to the Gaming Discussion forum of this very site and look for a fat ol' thread about what Ms. Sarkeesian had to say about Ico. Then realise that it gets about a page before the discussion is about her, not about what she said about Ico and what merit that might contain, and the thread stubbornly refused to be dragged back to that argument.

This happens, you're doing it now, recasting this argument to be about Anita Sarkeesian herself, and making accusations about her which you will, I confidently predict, be unable to substantiate with evidence.

DioWallachia:

The Feminist Frecuency videos are on Youtube, just to let you know :D

Also, you are using and Argument For Authority, a fallacy. You think that ONLY someone with authority has more priority over people who dont, REGARDLESS if they have a good argument.

The Escapist fucked up big time when they THEMSELVES posted that article that mentioned the hate but not the CAUSE of it, or even WHERE it came from:
http://www.escapistmagazine.com/news/view/117848-Kickstarter-Video-Project-Attracts-Misogynist-Horde

If that is your seal of proper research then congratulations, your opinions are supported by idiots. And now they have Jim to put the blame on us when we didn't even know who the fuck was Anita until they spoke.

EDIT:Lets not forget that, when the time of need comes, the "Journalists" that you love so much will bend over when the money of the advertisement tells them. Remember the amount of ads that ALL the gaming sites had when ME3 came out and the 10/10 scores they gave to it? I wonder if those ENORMOUS ADVERTISEMENTS OF ME3 had something to do with they impeccable scores?? Nah, just my imagination.

Snipped video because I'm not reposting idiocy

I'm not defending her. I haven't even posited an opinion on her, her videos or anything to do with this subject.

I simply wanted proof for an accusation made by someone, he posted youtube videos, which aren't cited, discussing information not prevelant to what I asked, and therefor not valid.

Wanting accurate sources of information is not an appeal to authority fallacy, which by the way, doesn't work under these circumstances because this is not a subject of opinion, it's a discussion of facts, having trustworthy sources of information is part of that (and no, The Escapist doesn't count either).

Although I do love how you completely jump the gun to paid for reviews. That's nice, not pertinent to the discussion at all, but it's nice.

Schadrach:

The best I can do is this:
image

I can't find any reference to this image that predates the alleged Sarkeesian spamming 4chan incident. There are later uses of it by someone likely faking being Sarkeesian trolling around in /mu/ though there's no guarantee.

That's certainly a photo of her. If you can find where it could have been taken from prior to the spamming then I withdraw my comment, but yeah...it's a picture of her, and it doesn't seem to be on the 'net prior to this mess, which makes you think (specifically that she either took it for this purpose or else someone who had access to her or received the photo from her did the spamming -- someone in her "camp" as it were), the other threads used an assortment of other images, as can be seen in some of the youtube videos discussing this.

Well at least you tried, a gold star for effort.

A picture of her still isn't evidence of anything though. I don't know if this picture originated from a post of 4chan, there's no real source that says it does. It means nothing, and proves less.

Bara_no_Hime:

Well, while DoA is a good example, it isn't the only kind of sexism - just one of the most blatant. Halo, Gears of War, and Call of Duty have their own brand of sexism that I honestly find worst than giggle physics.

And my comments about average were more to do with the widespread reactions to Ms. Sarkessian.

On the other hand, I may be feeling particularly critical of gamers at the moment because of how upset I've gotten over this whole Sarkessian incident. No, wait, upset is the wrong word - disappointed fits better. Actively disappointed? Bitterly disappointed? I think I need a better adverb.

Where's the sexism in Halo?

The first one was pretty devoid of women, as far as I can tell. At worse, they pandered Cortana's character in 3. But I enjoyed Cortana's character, as well as Miranda Keys and the female soldiers I encountered seemed equal to the male soldiers.

Snowblindblitz:

Bara_no_Hime:

Well, while DoA is a good example, it isn't the only kind of sexism - just one of the most blatant. Halo, Gears of War, and Call of Duty have their own brand of sexism that I honestly find worst than giggle physics.

And my comments about average were more to do with the widespread reactions to Ms. Sarkessian.

On the other hand, I may be feeling particularly critical of gamers at the moment because of how upset I've gotten over this whole Sarkessian incident. No, wait, upset is the wrong word - disappointed fits better. Actively disappointed? Bitterly disappointed? I think I need a better adverb.

Where's the sexism in Halo?

The first one was pretty devoid of women, as far as I can tell. At worse, they pandered Cortana's character in 3. But I enjoyed Cortana's character, as well as Miranda Keys and the female soldiers I encountered seemed equal to the male soldiers.

There probably is some if you dig deep enough. Remember it's not just how they present characters, but how they are written.

daibakuha:

Schadrach:

The best I can do is this:
image

I can't find any reference to this image that predates the alleged Sarkeesian spamming 4chan incident. There are later uses of it by someone likely faking being Sarkeesian trolling around in /mu/ though there's no guarantee.

That's certainly a photo of her. If you can find where it could have been taken from prior to the spamming then I withdraw my comment, but yeah...it's a picture of her, and it doesn't seem to be on the 'net prior to this mess, which makes you think (specifically that she either took it for this purpose or else someone who had access to her or received the photo from her did the spamming -- someone in her "camp" as it were), the other threads used an assortment of other images, as can be seen in some of the youtube videos discussing this.

Well at least you tried, a gold star for effort.

A picture of her still isn't evidence of anything though. I don't know if this picture originated from a post of 4chan, there's no real source that says it does. It means nothing, and proves less.

Google the image. It shows up in three places when I Google it -- one is a well known 4chan archive site's archive of the thread we're talking about, the other two are several months later, and seem to be a poor attempt to troll being her (or else she typo'd her own name for an entire thread =p).

Here you go, LMGTFY.

Snowblindblitz:
Where's the sexism in Halo?

The first one was pretty devoid of women, as far as I can tell. At worse, they pandered Cortana's character in 3. But I enjoyed Cortana's character, as well as Miranda Keys and the female soldiers I encountered seemed equal to the male soldiers.

I bolded the problem there - the fact that females just don't seem to exist in Halo 1.

Your post indicates that they corrected that problem in later installments. Fair enough.

Schadrach:

Google the image. It shows up in three places when I Google it -- one is a well known 4chan archive site's archive of the thread we're talking about, the other two are several months later, and seem to be a poor attempt to troll being her (or else she typo'd her own name for an entire thread =p).

Here you go, LMGTFY.

Proves that the image was posted to 4chan, not that she was the one who posted it.

Azuaron:
Martin Luther King, Jr. fought for restrictions upon blacks

Useless analogy since there are more races than black and white.

What is the stance of feminism on transgender issues?

Azuaron:
That doesn't contradict the earlier definition: "...[feminism] argues that legal and social restrictions on females must be removed in order to bring about such equality."

Partial match =/= total match.

I would support Anita full on, if her project was strictly educational in nature and was backed by some sort of educational establishment. But producing a series of small videos in youtube? I don't know, it just seems exploitative to me.

Sigh..you know, most of this drama could have been avoided if Kickstarted automatically stopped the donations when the targets were reached.

Lilani:
[quote="Riddle78" post="6.387779.15506283"]LADIES AND GENTLEMEN,this is why we don't kick up a stink over natural things such as sex or religon. It'll just blow up in your face. In modern society that I've observed (Ontario),women are equal. On the internet...The presence of a Y chromosome makes you a target. Why can't people just...Grow up? On the internet,gender is just a frivolous formality. In games,gender exists as a single facet in the possibility of diversity. As a twenty year old male,I hold women in equal esteem as males...Because they're HUMAN before they're MALE OR FEMALE.

Also,I believe the women's rights debate ends when women achieve equal footing with men,no sooner,no later. No one is superior by birth.

So...Yeah. Jim was right. Again.

Ahem...well...I hate to be pedantic, but the presence of a Y chromosome would make you a male, and thus the "norm" as far as the Internet and gaming community are concerned. It's those women and their double-X chromosomes that get everybody all up in a tizzy.

Whoops. I derp'd. Thank you for the correction. But I hope my point was clear otherwise?

daibakuha:

Schadrach:

Google the image. It shows up in three places when I Google it -- one is a well known 4chan archive site's archive of the thread we're talking about, the other two are several months later, and seem to be a poor attempt to troll being her (or else she typo'd her own name for an entire thread =p).

Here you go, LMGTFY.

Proves that the image was posted to 4chan, not that she was the one who posted it.

Bara_no_Hime:

Snowblindblitz:
Where's the sexism in Halo?

The first one was pretty devoid of women, as far as I can tell. At worse, they pandered Cortana's character in 3. But I enjoyed Cortana's character, as well as Miranda Keys and the female soldiers I encountered seemed equal to the male soldiers.

I bolded the problem there - the fact that females just don't seem to exist in Halo 1.

Your post indicates that they corrected that problem in later installments. Fair enough.

How's not including women is sexism? Are you familiar with the term tokenism? Just being there I mean? A game not including a certain gender or race or religion or insert any group here does not make it hateful or offensive in the least and vice versa. Inclusion does not mean they respect women either. Wow.

gamingqueen:
How's not including women is sexism? Are you familiar with the term tokenism? Just being there I mean? A game not including a certain gender or race or religion or insert any group here does not make it hateful or offensive in the least and vice versa.

First off, I didn't say hateful - I said sexist. Hateful would be misogynistic. Too many people confuse those words. Sexism is treating one sex differently than another. Non-inclusion of one sex is an example of sexes being treated differently.

Secondly, most modern military forces have female soldiers. Games that take place modern day or in the future should reflect that. Not just token females - there should be a significant presence of female soldiers, because to not include them is not realistic and is sexist.

By not including women in the military in setting where they should be present, these games imply that women aren't capable of being soldiers. That is at least casually misogynistic. Worse, it subtly gives players the impression that that is the way the military should be. Maybe the creators didn't mean to imply that, but they did, and they keep doing so with subsequent games (except in cases, such as Halo, where later games corrected the imbalance, as I was told above).

So yes, teaching a generation that women can't be soldiers is something that upsets me more than giggle physics.

Bara_no_Hime:

If you do that, then you missed my point. Yes, you can replace the words and the sentence still makes sense... grammatically. Not in context. You can say that it was because she has dark hair, but saying so is incorrect - it is false information that is clearly not true. The reason she was attacked is because she is a woman and self-proclaimed feminist. To say otherwise is to ignore the facts.

If "man says X, people laugh; woman says X, gets death threats" doesn't prove sexism, then I don't know what you expect me to do. That is as simple as the argument can get.

I'm just going to keep it simple this time, because I was obviously wrong about more than the guy part, for which I am truly sorry, that was genuinely presumptious of me. Once again then; that is not a good argument. There are a hundred other possible variables, that you chose to simply ignore. Not even acknowledging their existance is frankly intellectually dishonest. You are just stating that only one of them matters, without backing it up in any way. I give her hate, but not because she is a woman, for example. I cant put it simpler than this, it's a simple matter of B does not follow A.

If your world view is so eschewed that you cant recognize other variables than "male" and "female" then I have but pity for you.

Bara_no_Hime:

She deserves a critique because she missed that ICO is a feminist game. It is on her side - it is critiquing the same thing she is. When you attack an ally because that ally is too subtle for you to understand, then you need a better literary education.

It seems like you have a funny hobby here; attacking points I don't make. I never said she didn't deserve it. I said that she would ignore it, as she has done with all other professional criticism she has recieved, of which there has been a myriad. Investigative Journalism has two videos regarding her for example.

Bara_no_Hime:

Every person who dismisses her, who attacks her rather than critiquing her work, or who refuses to debate her because she's 'just a feminist on a soapbox' is proving her point.

She's right. It makes me cry, because I love gaming and gamers, but... fuck. She's right. I thought the gaming community was better than this, but apparently... I was wrong.

If a nazi went up and said that all Jews are subhuman, would you engage with him? No, because he is clearly not interested in arguing the point. By your logic we must engage with her regardless of how far-gone she is. Even other feminists refuse to engage with her, because that her kind of feminist (the sex-hating kind, look it up) are just loud, obnoxious and irrational. Also I find your use of the term "frat-boy" ironic.

Now I wanted to keep this civil, but the snarky, passive-agressive comments you tag onto the end of your posts are really starting to get to me. Stop injecting your own presumptions into my arguments and attacking me for things I do not say.

GloatingSwine:

It's cute that either of you think that anyone involved in the shitfest surrounding Anita has actually watched any of her existing videos, let alone responded to the content or tone therein.

Naive, but cute.

Here's the reality: None of the people that spewed the immature internet bile that made this a news story have watched or read anything Anita Sarkeesian has written. They have responded en masse to the mere concept that videogames be criticised for being sexist, and responded in such a way as to reinforce and underscore that point at every turn.

And this is what Jim's video is about. No-one at all in any of this has ever addressed the content of the existing Feminist Frequency videos or blogs, at no point has the internet hate machine focused on anything Anita Sarkeesian has said or written, it has all been about her as a person, and it has predominantly been focused specifically on her gender.

The upshot of that is that it is now impossible to discuss the content of her work, because the tempestuous vortex of stupidity that is internet gaming discussion will invariably drag the topic of discussion immediately to the person not the argument.

Well, again I must object. It seems every answer I get to my posts have a dire allergy to posting any kind of empirical facts other than "I know it is this way". Her videos was passed around 4chan in YRYL threads for ages before this.

I dont buy that all gamers are sexist mysoginist pigs. Because that is not the reality I'm presented with here, or anywhere else, save for the voice chats in public CoD games.

Here's another suggested reality; not even a fraction of the actual gamers give a devil's toss about what she thinks or does. She got attacked by trolls, there is no need to assume that those trolls made up even a noticeable minority of gamers.

Just stating that "agamers called her a twat, so all gamers are sexists", which is what you have been doing, is unfounded.

And as for making a point of her "creations"; it has been done. Over and over and over again. In professional articles. By bloggers. Even in her own comment sections. But she simply deletes those comments, or the offending video. Whatch investigative journalisms videos about her for a nice summary. Its good to research what you are arguing first.

Im getting sick of people pulling out the "gamers yelled at a crazy feminist, so all gamers are sexists" card. It's not even an argument. It's an unfounded statement.

Bara_no_Hime:

gamingqueen:
How's not including women is sexism? Are you familiar with the term tokenism? Just being there I mean? A game not including a certain gender or race or religion or insert any group here does not make it hateful or offensive in the least and vice versa.

Secondly, most modern military forces have female soldiers. Games that take place modern day or in the future should reflect that. Not just token females - there should be a significant presence of female soldiers, because to not include them is not realistic and is sexist.

Modern military forces have female STAFF.

In most 'modern military shooters' you are a firing squad or infantry. Women do not serve in those kind of positions yet. It's absolutely realistic that you aren't going to encounter many if any female soldiers on the battleground considering this.

By not including women in the military in setting where they should be present, these games imply that women aren't capable of being soldiers. That is at least casually misogynistic. Worse, it subtly gives players the impression that that is the way the military should be. Maybe the creators didn't mean to imply that, but they did, and they keep doing so with subsequent games (except in cases, such as Halo, where later games corrected the imbalance, as I was told above).

So yes, teaching a generation that women can't be soldiers is something that upsets me more than giggle physics.

In order for most women to even make the cut for most military positions they have to set a "special" standard for them. Which pretty much, to sum it up: Women in the military cannot do as much physical work (On average. There are exceptions to every rule, I swear to god if I get 10+ quotes screaming sexism at me...) as men. Their anatomy is obviously different, so you would think this makes sense, but seriously: Men must do more, women 'can' do less. Nothing sexist about that right? Why not simply lower it for men to women's standards as well, if you're fine with women being only at a certain fitness level that is obviously far lower than men's? It's discriminatory to both, and I'd imagine the men have way more right to complain about than women on this particular matter.

Kinda derailed myself, point bein, modern military shooters don't have women in them, because practically all shooters make you infantry, and women aren't allowed in infantry battalions for the most part... yet.

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