Jimquisition: Anita Sarkeesian - The Monster Gamers Created

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Signa:
I find it interesting how I neither care for gender issues in gaming being taken more seriously, or think of gaming as a "safe male space." As a result, I don't give two shits about this debate and have not added any fuel to this fire.

I must have a direct line to Jim's brain, because more often than not, I'm already doing what he says we should do as a community, or feel the same way he does about other issues. I swear, we'd be best friends if we ran into each other. Thank god for Jim!

Maybe this thread will help you understand where that "safe male space" came from:

http://www.escapistmagazine.com/forums/read/9.387414-Videogames-in-the-Master-Plan#15475216

"But we can't talk about that anymore, because the debate is not about whether she's right or wrong. The debate was invalidated when people decided to try to ruin her life en masse. The chance for debate on merit was lost once people started threatening to rape her."

It's funny how trolls have made her famous more than she probably would have been.

I had not heard about her before now...And I still dont care, boring episode though, sorry, but this flamewar was not relevant to my interest.

The first time my father took me out driving, he told me "don't look at that tree"...and you know what? It made me really want to look at that feckin' tree. In all honesty...didn't even know what tree he was talking about it, or where it was. I do know that it wasn't a helpful thing to say.

My thoughts on the video. A resounding "meh..." Don't need yet more ego-centric people telling me exactly how shit is.

My thoughts on the story as a whole. I hate her work...but I feel bad for her. The harassers were dicks, but what doesn't get any acknowledgement is the role the backers played by continuing to pour money into a pot that was already more full than it ever needed to be. If her detractors are guilty of causing a big fuss over the project, her supporters are guilty of the same thing...it's foolish to give 150,000k to a web-series that could have been done at a tiny fraction of that...of course it is, use your head. It seems like a nice gesture, and it is...but it comes with baggage. Big-time money means big-time expectations, and I don't think this lady is big-time. I think her opinions are too shallow and her focus too narrow. So much so that she misses things, often important things. It's a human thing to do, but it makes you a shitty analyst.

DioWallachia:

She spammed 4Chan with her video, she DELIVERATELY seek out the worst of the worst to make her point. That is like gathering violent and unstable people to a survey and test if videogames make more violent people, and surpricinly enough, the test was positive. Well shiiiiiiiiiet, i wonder if using NON normal people for a test has something to do with it??? naaaaah, must be my imagination.

I would love to see if there is any evidence to actually support this. You do realize people lie on the internet? Especially on 4chan where it's very easy to make something up and have it be believed.

Anita Sarkeesian...Jim Sterling....I see no difference. The first time I heard the name Jim Sterling was on some other site in a thread accusing him of trolling(they were probably right...). It was right around the time Heavy Rain released, so yeah...

Anyway. Same difference in my opinion.

Jimothy Sterling:
Anita Sarkeesian - The Monster Gamers Created

Angry gamers have been to Anita Sarkeesian (and gaming feminism in general) what DRM has been to piracy. Attempts to kill a thing have only made it stronger.

Watch Video

Though it is a bit off topic, but not by much, I thought I'd share a similarity between gamers and another group of people. Actually, it's more the organization itself than the people involved.

Religion.

This situation with Ms. Sarkeesian reminded me about an ordeal that one Sister Margaret McBride went through roughly three years ago. The controversy started roughly same: both women were involved in making a decision regarding a topic that's a sticky point to discuss, much less debate, when the issue arises. In Ms. Sarkeesian's case, the issue is, as we all should know by now, is Sexism. In Sister McBride's case, the issue was Abortion.

(For more about Sister McBride, either Google or search Wikipedia for the name, or clicky the linky provided - http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/06/01/sister-margaret-mcbride-e_n_595802.html)

However, I'd like to point out two striking similarities in these instances. Point the first, that the reactions from the men, at least initially, were against the women in question. For Sister McBride, instant condemnation and excommunication for her actions. Much the same occured with Ms. Sarkeesian, without the excommunication, of course. Point the second is, that from groups involved, the strongest reactions came from the majority of the groups (the men) unto the minority (the women). Though, without a doubt, there were/are people from both genders on both sides of the issues involved, these points stand out to me as unusually similar.

The difference being, since the controversies, Sister McBride was proven to have used as much intelligence and compassion as she could in her decision making regarding the issue she was involved in, thus her reinstatement to the Sisters of Mercy; while Ms. Sarkeesian...really hasn't proven much of anything, yet. And like Mr. Sterling said, it's going to be that much harder to determine what Ms. Sarkeesian has of value to offer to this debate now that the initial reactions has come forth and stained the debate at hand.

It is said that time cures most wounds. Let us see, then, if it can cure the idiocy, misogyny and discord that has erupted from these events.

That's cool Jim but I was already done giving this woman undeserved attention. Come along with me people! Lets all move on down the line!

DioWallachia:

Signa:
I find it interesting how I neither care for gender issues in gaming being taken more seriously, or think of gaming as a "safe male space." As a result, I don't give two shits about this debate and have not added any fuel to this fire.

I must have a direct line to Jim's brain, because more often than not, I'm already doing what he says we should do as a community, or feel the same way he does about other issues. I swear, we'd be best friends if we ran into each other. Thank god for Jim!

Maybe this thread will help you understand where that "safe male space" came from:

http://www.escapistmagazine.com/forums/read/9.387414-Videogames-in-the-Master-Plan#15475216

I thought it was more from that dick-bag fighting game coach, or whatever his role was. At least that was the first time I heard of it.

Personally, I do feel like gaming is kind of a safe-haven for me, but I have no problem sharing it. Girls are entitled to enjoy the glory I have experienced in gaming just as much as I am. The one thing I have a problem with in these arguments is it sounds like a lot of people are for changing gaming to be something more acceptable for girls. This I oppose, because I like gaming the way it is (or was actually. It's been kinda shit these last few years). What needs changing is the gaming culture, because for some odd reason, a very vocal section of it are a bunch of douche-bags because they don't want to share games. Games which I consider to be an universal unifier, because everyone likes fun and friendly competition.

Jim is a little late bring this out, but he is 120% right. Everybody who attempted to stop her, or make make up bullshit to try to get others into stopping her only achieved into added more fuel to the fire.

If she wasn't attacked, nothing would have happened except that the videos she would have made would have been noting more then video's in already established echo chamber with people whom already agrees with her views.

I made this point - ironically - in one of the threads Jim showed from the Escapist:

When Yahtzee called ICO sexist, no one cared. When she did it, she got threatened.

That is a different reaction to the same criticism based on the person's gender. That IS Sexism, and the reaction people have had disgusts me.

So thank the gods for you Jim, for pointing out how abhorrently certain gamers behaved about this.

fangclaw:
why was there video of persona 3 in there?

Gamers pretty much shot ourselves in the head with this. Just like how things work in P3.

Thank God for you Jim. You are 100% spot on, I have not agreed with any of your videos more than this one. Spot on Jim, spot on.

EDIT: Anti-Saarkesian gamers became an hero?

I thought her idea was a good one actually, I would watch those videos. Thanks Jim for the excellent video

Who...? No, seriously, who? I never heard about her before and even though you talked about her for the entire video, I still have no idea what the big deal even is. Oh well. I'll continue to ignore this woman.

I have said this more than a few times, no one would give a shit if it was not for the money that she does not need to make her show.

malakaira:
Well personally I fucking hated her before this whole kickstarter thing even started up I hate feminists like her that only look at stuff a face value and then disregard EVERYTHING as misogynist..........

That being said I still I can't really give less of a shit what she is doing especially because I want to watch the inevitable deconstruction videos that completely annihilate her poorly constructed arguments.

So you completely don't give a shit, but you thought you'd tell everybody how little a shit you give? And if you really didn't care, you wouldn't even bother having anything to do with Sarkeesian. But obviously you have a vested interest in seeing people rip into her. I wonder what that's all about?

Pretty much but I still don't think her documentaries won't add up to anything despite all the free press. Oddly enough the origin of the completely retarded responses from either side of this so called debate mostly come from reddit. The feminists there hate men, the men there hate women but because you can't be sexist against men the publicity only moves one way. The problem is not even with reddit itself, which has merely become the gathering place for the worst humanity has to offer.

What I'm trying to say is that these retarded and shameful examples of humanity will always exist and there really is no stopping them other than taking away their internet privileges which I really think should happen.

Honestly... I hadn't even heard of her before this video...

First of your videos i ever watched Jim, but not the last.

I hate this woman more and more the more i heard about her, and i wish she would go away, and i do think she is scamming the people that made the videos and now she is making them do research now.

Great video as always, but just one thing;

There was never a chance to have a reasonable debate with her and "test her convictions". She has her mind set, and it wouldn't have mattered if the trolls hadn't given her all this ammunition; she would still have turned every criticism into an attack on women and call everyone esle male pigs. I've debated with quite a few women like this myself, mainly at my university, and they can not be reached by reason and logic - they are too far gone.

True dat that we should just have left her alone to simmer in her own shit though.

Bara_no_Hime:
I made this point - ironically - in one of the threads Jim showed from the Escapist:

When Yahtzee called ICO sexist, no one cared. When she did it, she got threatened.

That is a different reaction to the same criticism based on the person's gender. That IS Sexism, and the reaction people have had disgusts me.

So thank the gods for you Jim, for pointing out how abhorrently certain gamers behaved about this.

You don't make a compelling argument that gender is the only difference between the two, and indeed I dont think it is. Here, let me try;

When Yahtzee called ICO sexist, no one cared. When she did it, she got threatened.
That is a different reaction to the same criticism based on the person's ETHNICITY. That IS Racism, and the reaction people have had disgusts me.

I don't think she got all this hatred because she is a woman, more likely its because she is an incredibly snarky fundie-feminist, who sees phallic symbols of THE PATRIARCHY™ everywhere she looks.

I believe that the issue of females in videogames is something that needs to be discussed, but this woman is about as far out as that fat fuck who abused that fighting-game-playing-female, can't remember eithers name, and claimed it was just the way it is. Neither of them are rational people, and neither of them have any place in a debate about anything.

bunji:

I don't think she got all this hatred because she is a woman, more likely its because she is an incredibly snarky fundie-feminist, who sees phallic symbols of THE PATRIARCHY™ everywhere she looks.

No, I'm fairly sure it's because gamers as a whole are a bunch of immature twatbadgers who shouldn't be left unsupervised with plastic safety scissors, let alone the internet.

The evidence for my position is, quite frankly, overwhelming in scope and force.

bunji:
You don't make a compelling argument that gender is the only difference between the two, and indeed I dont think it is. Here, let me try;

When Yahtzee called ICO sexist, no one cared. When she did it, she got threatened.
That is a different reaction to the same criticism based on the person's ETHNICITY. That IS Racism, and the reaction people have had disgusts me.

... how is that based on their ethnicity? Yahtzee is male, she's female; people laughed at yahtzee's joke about gingham, they threatened to rape her. Also, they're both white (although I guess she's apparently Jewish?) How is that racism and not sexism? Or, possibly racism AND sexism?

bunji:
I don't think she got all this hatred because she is a woman, more likely its because she is an incredibly snarky fundie-feminist, who sees phallic symbols of THE PATRIARCHY™ everywhere she looks.

I believe that the issue of females in videogames is something that needs to be discussed, but this woman is about as far out as that fat fuck who abused that fighting-game-playing-female, can't remember eithers name, and claimed it was just the way it is. Neither of them are rational people, and neither of them have any place in a debate about anything.

I didn't say she was right (in fact, in the previous thread, I suggested that she needs to take some literary theory because, while ICO is sexist, it is calculatedly sexist in a fashion that satires sexist games) I said that the hatred being yelled at her isn't deserving.

After Jim's video, I went to look at her Kickstarter. She didn't seem that insane or out there to me - she seems to be a gamer who is offended by the sexism that exists in the gaming community. I don't think she's really the best person to be doing this, because she doesn't seem to get literary subtly (ie, the satire in ICO) and in some ways she seems almost sheltered in her gameplay choices (there are FAR worse games that she misses). She also seems rather sensationalist.

None of these things offend me. They might annoy me, make me roll my eyes, and not want to give her Kickstarter money, but they are NOT the same as the abuse that said fat fuck gave the female player you cited above. She is not offensive - at best, she's kind of crappy at her job. She did not deserve the attacks she got.

She did deserve an intellectual critique, which I gave her in a previous thread. She missed the pro-feminist satire of sexism in games that is the undercurrent of ICO. When you write an article that says "this game is sexist" and you're talking about a piece of artwork that satirized sexist games, then you deserve an intellectual critique for not understanding a game you supposedly analyzed. Much as, say, Movie Bob recently gave an intellectual thrashing to those who called Sucker Punch sexist. Is it sexist? Yes - of course. You can't satirize something without first being what you hate.

That, for those who aren't into literary theory, is the difference between satire and parody:
Parody likes the subject matter, and is giving it a fond roasting out of love.
Satire hates the subject matter, and is tearing the subject a new one out of spite.

So yes, she was wrong about ICO. That doesn't mean she deserves any of the incredibly offensive and horrific hate-mail she's gotten. No one does. If you think she does... then you're only proving her right about male gamers.

GloatingSwine:

bunji:

I don't think she got all this hatred because she is a woman, more likely its because she is an incredibly snarky fundie-feminist, who sees phallic symbols of THE PATRIARCHY™ everywhere she looks.

No, I'm fairly sure it's because gamers as a whole are a bunch of immature twatbadgers who shouldn't be left unsupervised with plastic safety scissors, let alone the internet.

The evidence for my position is, quite frankly, overwhelming in scope and force.

I think you need to get of XBoxLive a bit ;) That still doesn't rebuke my point though; that she isn't getting this hatred because she is a woman specifically. You merely proposed another possible cause, in a way strenghtening my point.

She isn't the first one to raise this point ladies and gentlemen, she just happens to be an incredibly snarky cunt, the kind that spells woman "womyn" and thinks that electric guitars should be banned for being phallic powersymbols. And, referring to your overwhelming empirical material, being a cunt is a good way to get yelled at on the net.

Scrustle:
You're right Jim, but I think that the points you talked about were all kind of old news. It was all obvious from the point when Anita decided to flaunt all those threats to gain more support. Now it's about her ignoring legitimate criticisms and making other people do her work for her. You're right in the reasons why she's ignoring the more valid and intelligent criticisms levelled against her, but that doesn't mean that they shouldn't be talked about. It doesn't really matter if she replies to them or not, if they gain enough traction then people will pay attention. But I fear it's all too late any way. She's trolled the entire internet and got away with it.

It's actually people who make arguments like yours who Jim is complaining about. Instead of attacking the substance of her arguments (Which are easily shot down.) you attack the her for "flaunting those threats to gain more support."

If you're the target of vile threats shouldn't you be allowed to talk about it? How is that trolling the internet? The trolls the ones threatening to rape Sarkeesian. She just has some opinions that are somewhat dubious but worth discussing.

Wait, what the HELL is sexist about Bastion? Did the narrator have to be female or it's just men playing their man game wanting to listen to a perfectly on-cue sexual man voice? This has grown to be too ridiculous, particularly with some of the games having a finger pointed at them. Many criticisms also ignore that games are made all over the world, where there are VERY different and not so subtle cultural differences, particularly pertaining to gender.

But Jim is right. If people decided to constructively discuss this as adults, there would be nothing for the media to talk about pertaining to this situation. Alas, this is the internet, and we all know about the majority of its denizens. Like any bubble, I see it popping before developers and publishers (from various countries around the world) have an epiphany and come to her to check the "okay/not okay" boxes. I also firmly believe that she's more than likely a troll, and this is the biggest mass exodus of people feeding the troll in the history of the Internet.

Side note: It's sexist go see the orchestra and watch the female flutist, because it's exploitation having a woman put a phallic object to her mouth and start blowing. See how ridiculous this can get if it's allowed to grow?

Bara_no_Hime:

... how is that based on their ethnicity? Yahtzee is male, she's female; people laughed at yahtzee's joke about gingham, they threatened to rape her. Also, they're both white (although I guess she's apparently Jewish?) How is that racism and not sexism? Or, possibly racism AND sexism?

I was making an example or, if you feel vicious, making a strawman point. The thing I wanted to get across wasn't that it was racist; it was that the idea that she got the hate she recieved only because she was female has about as much empirical evidence that she got it because she has dark hair. I parroted your line to show how easy it was to replace gender with anything else.

Bara_no_Hime:

She did deserve an intellectual critique, which I gave her in a previous thread. She missed the pro-feminist satire of sexism in games that is the undercurrent of ICO. When you write an article that says "this game is sexist" and you're talking about a piece of artwork that satirized sexist games, then you deserve an intellectual critique for not understanding a game you supposedly analyzed. Much as, say, Movie Bob recently gave an intellectual thrashing to those who called Sucker Punch sexist. Is it sexist? Yes - of course. You can't satirize something without first being what you hate.

I was going to put your entire thing here, but you'll excuse me if I don't, I hope, it was a rather long diatribe. Also I hope I got the quoting system down... I guess I'll find out.

Listen; you are a smart guy, I can clearly tell that, but I think you got one thing wrong. She didn't miss it, and she doesn't need an education; she wasn't looking for anything like that. She has her detection system fine-tuned to find anything that might even be mistaken for sexism and parading it around like a trophy. This kind of person isn't fit for having this debate. She isn't looking for a debate. She want's to climb onto the biggest soapbox in the village and yell that men are pigs untill she croaks. An intellectual critique would fall on deaf ears, not only hers but her fans aswell.

Did she deserve to get death and rape threats? No! I never suggested that, I merely proposed another reason for the bile she recieved than her just being female - that being her halfbaked fundie ideas.

Neither did I suggest that her horrible videos are of the same caliber of horrible as the abuse from that fat fuck-o; I merely said that they are both as deluded. And I stand by that point.

So, in short, by continuing on with "Not giving a fuck about any of this", I win.

Okay, I'm glad we had this talk.

daibakuha:

DioWallachia:

She spammed 4Chan with her video, she DELIVERATELY seek out the worst of the worst to make her point. That is like gathering violent and unstable people to a survey and test if videogames make more violent people, and surpricinly enough, the test was positive. Well shiiiiiiiiiet, i wonder if using NON normal people for a test has something to do with it??? naaaaah, must be my imagination.

I would love to see if there is any evidence to actually support this. You do realize people lie on the internet? Especially on 4chan where it's very easy to make something up and have it be believed.

Here, have 5 videos that have been already shown before in this kind of discussions: (remember that as Jim said, she was a nobody before the incident of "Tropes Vs Games: Kickstarter Scam", so i highly doubt that the trolls were just waiting to post the dammed video ASAP she posted it on Youtube, because she was a nobody in the Internet)

Instigative Journalism:

Bill The Man From Kentucky:

GloatingSwine:

bunji:

I don't think she got all this hatred because she is a woman, more likely its because she is an incredibly snarky fundie-feminist, who sees phallic symbols of THE PATRIARCHY™ everywhere she looks.

No, I'm fairly sure it's because gamers as a whole are a bunch of immature twatbadgers who shouldn't be left unsupervised with plastic safety scissors, let alone the internet.

The evidence for my position is, quite frankly, overwhelming in scope and force.

1)Anita makes videos about POINTING OUT things that are "sexist". That is all she does, as soon a woman gets ANY kind of bad treatment, then its sexist. Nevermind if it is for a character development arc or for the theme/context the work of medium is trying to tell. Pointing out is NOT the same as EXPLAINING IN DETAIL why is it sexist, she doesnt even TRY to make a good argument and she controls what comments will stay in the videos on Youtube, regardless if they have legitimate criticism about her "work" (sarcastic quotes)

2)If gamers are like you described, then anyone would be fine and dandy with Metroid: Other M presentation of females. Not even in Japan itself (where most people here believe that they are the ultimate perverts) is this game loved in any shape or form.

3)A gamer in his spare time made a game with a female protagonist that acts like a human being and not a walking sexual fantasy. That game is IJI

Never heard of her before today, watched her Kickstarter video, and now I must say I see nothing wrong with what she is doing whether or not you agree with her opinions. Doing research and facilitating discussion is never a bad thing especially when she is providing a female view to a widely male market. The people who attacked her were clearly wrong and most likely incredibly childish and rather then hoping for her to fail I would think we would rather hope she succeeds and creates something thought provoking.

Bara_no_Hime:
I made this point - ironically - in one of the threads Jim showed from the Escapist:

When Yahtzee called ICO sexist, no one cared. When she did it, she got threatened.

That is a different reaction to the same criticism based on the person's gender. That IS Sexism, and the reaction people have had disgusts me.

So thank the gods for you Jim, for pointing out how abhorrently certain gamers behaved about this.

Well, to be fair, I'm not necessarily sure it's sexism, I think it's more "Ha ha, that's Yahtzee". I think people would've still laughed if Yahtzee was female. But that's just me, so I couldn't be sure.

Also

Kidding.

Anyway, for the most part, besides seeing the threads sprout up every time she opens her mouth, I've tried my damndest to stay out of this whole affair. If only everyone else had done that before they'd yelled "RAPE HER!" and made games where you beat her up.

And finally, fuck yes for Zippy by the way. Interesting fact, he's Britain's favourite celebrity sporting fan and he supports Dundee United =D (The team that I support)

Riddle78:
LADIES AND GENTLEMEN,this is why we don't kick up a stink over natural things such as sex or religon. It'll just blow up in your face. In modern society that I've observed (Ontario),women are equal. On the internet...The presence of a Y chromosome makes you a target. Why can't people just...Grow up? On the internet,gender is just a frivolous formality. In games,gender exists as a single facet in the possibility of diversity. As a twenty year old male,I hold women in equal esteem as males...Because they're HUMAN before they're MALE OR FEMALE.

Also,I believe the women's rights debate ends when women achieve equal footing with men,no sooner,no later. No one is superior by birth.

So...Yeah. Jim was right. Again.

Ahem...well...I hate to be pedantic, but the presence of a Y chromosome would make you a male, and thus the "norm" as far as the Internet and gaming community are concerned. It's those women and their double-X chromosomes that get everybody all up in a tizzy.

DioWallachia:
5:43
"This happens whenever someone has a problem with a woman working on videogames..."

You mean this?

I dont see why now all the arguments against Anita would be useless for the death threats and such, when it is clear that those were a vocal minority. The amount of people doing actual research to counter act the thing she saids is WAAAAAY more bast in proportion. But i guess that, once again, people are focusing on the minority like if they were the ALL the detractors.

The biggest problem there, as Jim said, is that whenever some controversy in games involving a woman comes up, a good portion of the discussion is spent on the fact that she's a woman. It doesn't matter if those causing those irrelevant discussions are a minority, the fact is they are muddling the discussion and refuse to allow it to be about the issue rather than the person's gender. Yes they are a minority, but they currently have the most influence when it comes to things like this, which means they may as well be the majority because if there are other discussions to be had, they aren't getting heard.

You can't hang by a petard, Jim. A petard is a bomb. You can be hoisted by a petard, into the air, by means of it blowing up and sending your body flying into the air, but you cannot "hang" by one. That's just silly.

Oh. And good video, I agree with it, blabla SERIOUSLY JIM REALLY?! "HANG BY HER PETARD"?! HOW CAN YOU MAKE SUCH A ROOKIE MISTAKE I DON'T KNOW euurgh

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