The Big Picture: You Are Wrong About Sucker Punch, Part Two

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Ne1butme:
6'8"? Nah, she's 5foot 8 inch.

I think we should write that off as a slip, and not bring to much attention to it.

I've only seen the film once and I didn't really pay attention for subtext, I spent most of the film rolling my eyes at how juvenile some of my fellow male friends are, haha. This is an interesting analysis, however I'm still not a huge fan of the film, the only girl who I didn't find annoying was actually Sweet Pea, so I was pretty pleased when she made it out in the end.

It the movie is being told by Sweet Pea then why does it start with things only Babydoll would know, such as the asylum which Sweet Pea was never seen in? Also why is Sweet Pea focusing on Babydoll rather than herself or Rocket?

I find it more likely that the movie is about sexy girls doing action things, Sweet Pea is a foil for Babydoll, and Babydoll is meant to be making a heroic sacrifice; than some sort of criticism about female empowerment and thirdwave feminism. Especially since Bob couldn't provide any quotes from the director to back up his claims.

Wow I wasn't even aware of those of meanings and message until now. Yyeah like you said, it doesn't change my opinion of the film but I suppose I got a better understanding of what it was trying to say now.

Sutter Cane:
Hold on let me get this straight, bob admits that there are problems with the movie, and says he doesn't blame people for not liking it (so long as they understand what the movie was trying to accomplish), and people are attacking him in this thread for supposedly saying that if you didn't like the movie you're wrong, despite the fact that's nearly the opposite of what he said at the beginning of part 1.

It's called a strawman; quite popular these days...especially in political discourse.

What do you people want from him?

To keep making videos as it gives them one more thing to whine about.

Li Mu:
Is this part two in the eighteen part series about why Bob believes that SuckerPunch is the greatest movie ever made in the last 120 years?

See: both my statements above.

I don't know Bob, you might be seeing too much into it. I loved the movie, but from a GUY's perspective. The movie might be more about escapism that it is about sexism. At least it makes more sense to me that way.

The "real" story could hold its own, sad and violent as it is. The story is interesting and cliche enough to support an entire movie. There'd be no reason not to show everything that happens in that asylum, blue aprons, rapes, violent tantrums, screams and shit thrown on the walls. You'd just have a bleak movie that would challenge people to view it and then leave a bad taste in their mouths.

So why not perform a bit of magic and turn the story into something more tasty? I really believe that the Brothel World is never a fantasy of one of the girls, but a metaphor that retains all the symbolism, made so that the viewers can escape from the ugly reality.

The Dance World is basically the same thing, only on steroids. While a sexy dance would've been cool, the current escapist generation enjoys more than just a pole dance. There are so many "buttons" being pressed there, that any gamer should have an orgasm. 10 foot minigun? School girls? Dragons? Nazi steampunk zombies?

How escapist can you get?! When the dude in the temple says "These are your weapons, use them", he might refer to our fantasies, the small and insignificant things we all do after 10 hours of work every day. If we can click ourselves happy at the end of a pathetic day's work, FINE! The world is so bad out there, that only a lobotomy might make us immune from empathy. If the only alternative is lying and fantasising, well, DO IT! It's better than hanging yourself.

This is a "show and tell" movie. If you want to tell people that escapism is fine in this crazy world, what better way to prove it than making a movie about an asylum and sexually abused girls AND still have the audience enjoy themselves with a bit of unrelated and misplaced action movie-magic?

This is my take on it... it's something that came to me in the first 20 minutes of the movie, it made sense till the end credits and it made me enjoy the movie immensely. I don't recall ever having such a good time at the cinema.

For full disclosure: I've never seen the movie in question, the only reason I bothered watching this was the title "You're wrong" seems pretty egotistical.

I subscribe to the belief that when it comes to things like movies and literature (and even videogames to a certain extent), so long as there is evidence to back up your argument, your interpretation is never wrong. Someone can look at the same evidence from the movie/text that you did and come to a different conclusion, but that still doesn't mean you're wrong.

As such, I find it rather presumptuous for Bob to title this video "You're Wrong About Sucker Punch." No, Bob, they weren't wrong. So long as their argument was based off of something more than "Sucker Punch sucked because it was fucking lame and I didn't like the story." Well that they're opinion, but without evidence to back it up they have nothing to stand on when discussing the movie itself. Someone could have watched the movie, saw all the evidence that Bob saw, and come up with their own conclusions. Does that mean that Bob's wrong? No. It means that two different people took two different interpretations away from the movie.

Unless you are the author of a piece of literature or the writer/director of a movie, you have no place in telling other people what the author/writer/director was trying to convey with their work. You might think you have a damn good idea about it because you've put together a nice essay worth of facts drawing on evidence from the movie or book, but you still could be completely wrong about it. For all you know (and to be clear: I do doubt this is the case, just speaking hypothetically) the writer of the movie could have just been wanting to make a movie about chicks doing action stuff with a plot to tie the action sequences together. It could be that the author/writer/director had absolutely no deep meaning or purpose behind the work at all and we're just attaching our own meaning to the work because it fits our personal context.

For further reference, please see the South Park episode "The Tale of Scrotie McBoogerballs."

In short: though I've never seen the movie myself, I still say that YOU'RE wrong about this movie due to your assertion being based upon your own interpretation of the movie.

That was enlightening.

I'll say the same thing about Sucker Punch that I said about Cabin in the Woods. When a movie scolds an audience purely for being the audience, then who the fuck is this movie FOR? Who's supposed to be the one that will enjoy this movie? Feminists that'll see the sexualized main characters and are expected to understand that they're only sexualized for the sake of the movie being able to wag its finger at the male audience here to see sexy female characters in action?

I always used to laugh at the English teachers who reminded us over and over that everything needs to be written with an audience in mind. "Every person can be the audience," I thought to myself. "It makes no difference!" But now I see what the hell they were talking about.

bz316:
I'm not sure what's worst: having a movie pretty much call me an asshole, or (assuming Bob is correct in his assessment of the film's intentions) the fact that I totally deserved it...

Hey now, don't think like that. Zack Snyder's probably the true asshole for calling his audience the assholes for DARING to like the stuff he put into his movie.
I think the other things to hate about Sucker Punch is that, as poorly characterized as they were, we wanted the girls to escape, and only the "bitchy" one did. That last minute protagonist switch at the end was just dick-slap.

So in the end... Bob is repeating what other people have said.

It's a huge mess stumbling over itself attempting to satire a bad movies that use and exploit sex to appeal to a male demographic whilst itself becoming a horrible movie that exploits sex that appeals to no one (some people might still like it).

We SOOOO needed 2 videos for this. Especially a video telling us that we are ALL wrong about it... when in the end you end up coughing up a chewed up message already uttered by others. I even saw some forum folks doing what cost 2 weeks and 2 videos in about a single paragraph of text.

I really think the point of the last video was, "Sucker Punch didn't suck and you're wrong for thinking it did," and the point of this one was, "Sucker Punch was saying something you might not have noticed."

It seems like Bob noticed how aggresive he was last time and is now trying to back away from his, "Everyone is dumb but me," usual schtick. For that, I am grateful.

minuialear:

SonOfVoorhees:
-snip-

-snip-

This might come as a bit of a surprise for you both but... some women like to dress up in sexy clothes. I know, I was as dumbfounded as you when I found out. I'm saying this from experience, you see I actually went to visit an actual tribe of women where they were wearing, I fuck you not, clothes that weren't covering 100% of their skin. Pretty shocking stuff. They even like to watch TV shows with women who aren't shrouded in burqas.
image
I wish I had some way of understanding this apparent total contradiction with what previous studies have indicated, but given that we have yet to actually decypher language the females use, we have no way of asking them.

Darth_Payn:

bz316:
I'm not sure what's worst: having a movie pretty much call me an asshole, or (assuming Bob is correct in his assessment of the film's intentions) the fact that I totally deserved it...

Hey now, don't think like that. Zack Snyder's probably the true asshole for calling his audience the assholes for DARING to like the stuff he put into his movie.
I think the other things to hate about Sucker Punch is that, as poorly characterized as they were, we wanted the girls to escape, and only the "bitchy" one did. That last minute protagonist switch at the end was just dick-slap.

It's telling that the least trampy of the girls is the one you consider a bitch.

Revolutionaryloser:

minuialear:

SonOfVoorhees:
-snip-

-snip-

This might come as a bit of a surprise for you both but... some women like to dress up in sexy clothes. I know, I was as dumbfounded as you when I found out. I'm saying this from experience, you see I actually went to visit an actual tribe of women where they were wearing, I fuck you not, clothes that weren't covering 100% of their skin. Pretty shocking stuff. They even like to watch TV shows with women who aren't shrouded in burqas.
image
I wish I had some way of understanding this apparent total contradiction with what previous studies have indicated, but given that we have yet to actually decypher language the females use, we have no way of asking them.

I'm just going to requote myself...

minuialear:
While I would allow for the possibility in a better movie that their sexualized costumes in the fantasy world (a world which they created to escape the sexual nightmare of their reality) are a way for them to try and reclaim their sexuality in a manner that works for them...that's far from how it comes out in the film. There are PLENTY of scenes we could all point to and think "Fanservice!!" because of how over-the-top they are in that regard, or because it's super obvious that the scene was made for guys to think the characters were cool/sexy, rather than because the characters would think this was cool. (I'll point out here that at no point in the entire film, as far as I remember, do any of the female leads indicate that fighting or sci-fi/fantasy worlds are things they personally enjoy and would fantasize about, and that therefore Snyder gives us no reason to assume there was any reason to have them doing so other than because he thought it would look cool/he decided to try for symbolism using things he finds are a good form of escape, but which aren't shown to be what his CHARACTERS find are good forms of escape. Which, you know, kinda undermines the whole "Look at how clever this movie is!" argument.) Etc, etc.

EDIT: Also can't tell if that last part is a joke or not, so I'll assume the worst until you tell me otherwise: I tend to have no problems talking to and understanding women, though that may be because I talk to them like they're normal people and not another species that others can't communicate with.

irishda:
I'll say the same thing about Sucker Punch that I said about Cabin in the Woods. When a movie scolds an audience purely for being the audience, then who the fuck is this movie FOR? Who's supposed to be the one that will enjoy this movie?

usually it's the writer's ego. It's a way for them to placate themselves probably from being criticized by audiences or by critics. It's a way for writers to think they're automatically clever without having to condemn themselves as well in the process (see also: deconstruction). Some films can do it well, but it takes a good writer to pull it off which Snyder ISN'T. Like a lot of very talented visual directors when he writes something it is CRAP (just look at Terrence Mallick's filmography).

Shit, remind me to bring splunking equipment next time Bob, this got deep and I hit my brain, now I can't smart... derp.

All I can say is that having a message and being good are not the same thing. A good movie needs to have at least somewhat of a message, but simply having a message doesn't make a movie good.

minuialear:
-snip-

Translating what I said and thereby sucking all fun out of life, maybe women like wearing nice clothes and being sexy and neither of those things are the problem the film is trying to address and women should be free to wear nice clothes and be sexy if that's what they want.

Also, I'd love it if somebody one day pointed out where in that film is there a fanservice moment provided that the person knows what fanservice means.

TKretts3:
All I can say is that having a message and being good are not the same thing. A good movie needs to have at least somewhat of a message, but simply having a message doesn't make a movie good.

Bob already made that point for you.

Revolutionaryloser:

Darth_Payn:

bz316:
I'm not sure what's worst: having a movie pretty much call me an asshole, or (assuming Bob is correct in his assessment of the film's intentions) the fact that I totally deserved it...

Hey now, don't think like that. Zack Snyder's probably the true asshole for calling his audience the assholes for DARING to like the stuff he put into his movie.
I think the other things to hate about Sucker Punch is that, as poorly characterized as they were, we wanted the girls to escape, and only the "bitchy" one did. That last minute protagonist switch at the end was just dick-slap.

It's telling that the least trampy of the girls is the one you consider a bitch.

I could say the same about how you refered to the others as 'trampy'. Although I agree with you about how wanting Sweet Pea to escape the least simply because shes a little 'bitchy' (which is understandable given her situation) is kind of cold (even though the negative character in any situation is the one people tend to relate to the least) calling the others tramps is just as harsh.

Hey. Remember that quote from Tremors 2 "they've been acting so smart because they're so stupid"? Someone we know made an entire episode about politicians on that. Same could be said for this movie.

Revolutionaryloser:

minuialear:
-snip-

Translating what I said and thereby sucking all fun out of life, maybe women like wearing nice clothes and being sexy and neither of those things are the problem the film is trying to address and women should be free to wear nice clothes and be sexy if that's what they want.

I'm well aware that it's possible that a woman would like to be sexy without wanting to be so because guys like sexy women (and for the third time, in a different movie, I could buy the argument that they continue to wear the skimpy outfits in the fantasy world in order to reclaim that sexuality). However, Sucker Punch does not convey that message effectively (if at all). What part of those fantasy scenes indicates any forethought other than "Hey, this looks cool; let's have them do this because it's what I think is cool!" ? Also keep in mind who wrote/directed/produced this film, and what he is known for doing (e.g., sucking the meaning out of other works he's adapted to make them look cool and edgy). The combination doesn't paint a pretty picture for the argument that he actually thought about having them reclaim their sexuality through skimpy outfits in sci-fi/fantasy worlds stylized in ways we've already seen in some of Snyder's previous work. And even if we assume that he really did mean for that to be in the film...it still doesn't come off as being that intelligent. At all.

Also, I'd love it if somebody one day pointed out where in that film is there a fanservice moment provided that the person knows what fanservice means.

Unfortunately I don't have Youtube access so I can't do that at present...will try to remember to do so at a later point.

EDIT: Actually, this article explains it pretty concisely: http://missmediajunkie.blogspot.com/2011/04/so-sucker-punch.html

Ignoring the part of them being scantily clad (even though I disagree that it's the case, I'll allow for the purpose of this discussion that maybe the lack of clothing is supposed to actually be an empowering thing); I'd say the most astute commentary indicating fanservice is:

female characters who are all of age but visually read as adolescents. Hence the fetish costuming, the sickly-sweet nicknames, and the fantasy sequences full of common video game tropes. A period heroine like Baby Doll would have no frame of reference for an inner fantasy world full of seedy bordellos, killer robots, and samurai warriors. Instead, if I had to guess, the inside of her head would probably look more like Tim Burton's "Alice in Wonderland," a film with a far more female-friendly fantasy aesthetic that much of the target audience of "Sucker Punch" reviled on principle.

The fanservice is in the fetish adolescent look (Babydoll's supposed to be 20, let's not forget), the video game tropes and imagery in the fantasy scenes (though you could argue they're there just as much for Snyder's enjoyment as they're there for the audience), and the fact that the characters, as crafted in the film, would have absolutely no motivation to be dreaming about samurai with guns or robot armies, and therefore it's incredibly hard to seriously argue that those scenes are anything but Snyder either showing an (possibly assumed male) audience things they'll find super-cool, or showing the audience things that he finds super-cool.

Holy shit Bob, slow down. If you're going to fuck my mind, at least do it gently.

When I heard the line about "angels" at the beginning it made me wonder while I was watching who the angel is. At first I thought the old man was Baby Doll's angel, but then at the end when she says that it wasnt her story, it made me wonder if Baby Doll is Sweet Pea's angel, and that the old man is... God

nice episodes, but i cant help but point out the film has a synopsis;

A young girl is institutionalized by her abusive stepfather. Retreating to an alternative
reality as a coping strategy, she envisions a plan which will help her escape from the mental
facility

i read that as meaning the only real character is sweet-pea, she escaped from the mental hospital her delusions sacrificed themselves for her mental well being,
sans Alice in wonderland

SonOfVoorhees:
Or the message could be "Woman are hypocrites?" as in men should not sexualise woman....but woman still use there sexuality to there advantage.

I think that's an awfully stupid message to send. It's not only generalizing as fuck, it's also quite obvious that EVERYONE is a hypocrite at some point.

A noble or complex underlying story idea does not make up for a painful or just outright bad execution. Nor does overanalyzing a movie after the fact make up for the simple fact that your first instaincts regarding whether you left the theater feeling like you enjoyed the movie are probably the right response. Suckerpunch was absolutely awful. It had some great ideas. But it was too confused and disjointed, and for the most part left the audience pissed off at the filmaker.

Plus we should always be wary of critics or professors having us hyper analyze anything after the fact. You can talk up or justify almost anything as being supposedly better than your initial mind knows it to actually be. As an example, play these two episodes again. Now go watch Paul Verhoven's "Showgirls". Notice how all of Bob's layered nuances regarding misogeny and feminism and reversals etc etc can be applied almost 100% in the same way to that film? You can almost hear Bob's narration as you watch it. Now has it improved your view of it any? were you wrong, or is it in fact still just a steaming pile of dog sh@t?

If nothing else, you're review of the movie was entertaining, but it comes off a little like the people who ascribe some deep meaning to Prometheus. It seems all a film maker has to do is be cryptic, and people will pop up to figure it out. A smart film maker or writer would then just have to pick the best or most interesting interpretation and run with it.

Glad these are over, I disliked the film so these reviews didn't really tickle my fancy. I hope we get some more "TV IS WEIRD" next week :D

Renegade-pizza:
I have to agree with Bob. if this film was supposed to deliver a message of some sort, then why did "nobody" get it? It was just poor delivery.

Maybe we weren't supposed to get it. Maybe the producers made the movie to such a way that they knew most people who watch it would not get it so that said producers could just sit there and laugh at our stupidity. DUM DUM DUMMMMMMMMMMMMMM!

minuialear:

SonOfVoorhees:
For me, if its the girls fantasy (nazi thing, dragon etc) why are they still wearing sexualised clothing? Its their choice to do that, its their fantasy, not mens fantasy. The director sucked at it, if you are correct, because you cant direct a movie full of overly sexualised characters, market it and sell it that way and then make it against those things.

Seconded. Combined with my sentiment that Zack Snyder has never shown that he is clever enough to have thought to frame the movie as a "You guys should be ashamed that you like all this" sort of way that Bob mentions in Part 1

OT:

While I would allow for the possibility in a better movie that their sexualized costumes in the fantasy world (a world which they created to escape the sexual nightmare of their reality) are a way for them to try and reclaim their sexuality in a manner that works for them...that's far from how it comes out in the film. There are PLENTY of scenes we could all point to and think "Fanservice!!" because of how over-the-top they are in that regard, or because it's super obvious that the scene was made for guys to think the characters were cool/sexy, rather than because the characters would think this was cool. (I'll point out here that at no point in the entire film, as far as I remember, do any of the female leads indicate that fighting or sci-fi/fantasy worlds are things they personally enjoy and would fantasize about, and that therefore Snyder gives us no reason to assume there was any reason to have them doing so other than because he thought it would look cool/he decided to try for symbolism using things he finds are a good form of escape, but which aren't shown to be what his CHARACTERS find are good forms of escape. Which, you know, kinda undermines the whole "Look at how clever this movie is!" argument.) Etc, etc.

Now I'm not going to rule out the possibility that Snyder was trying to go for something deep and is just too bad at writing/making original films to be able to pull that kind of thing off, but I say you're trying too hard if you insist that it's all there and that everyone who doesn't see it simply doesn't get it. There's plenty in that movie to indicate something different happened.

Sutter Cane:
Hold on let me get this straight, bob admits that there are problems with the movie, and says he doesn't blame people for not liking it (so long as they understand what the movie was trying to accomplish), and people are attacking him in this thread for supposedly saying that if you didn't like the movie you're wrong, despite the fact that's nearly the opposite of what he said at the beginning of part 1.

What do you people want from him?

He can change his crappy titles, for one...

Maybe "You guys should be ashamed that you like all this" is a bit too strong wording of the makers intent and more moviebob's intent to stir things up a bit; well in line with his choice in titles.

Though after seeing this second part, I have to admit i now do believe this probably was the intended message of the film.
(A reversal to what I said in my post in respons the first part: http://www.escapistmagazine.com/forums/read/6.387238-The-Big-Picture-You-Are-Wrong-About-Sucker-Punch-Part-One?page=12#15480101)

I didn't get the movie but I did enjoy it. What does that make me? Is it really wrong to watch good looking girls in sexy outfits kick ass. Maybe in some way it is, I can kinda see where they're coming from.

My mind has been blown. I sort of figured there was meaning behind the movie but- to this depth?

Then again, despite liking it the movie didn't make it clear enough for me to get it. I'm already oblivious as it is, I wouldn't pick this up on my own so to speak. Actually my mind works a bit like Sucker Punch... whenever I do chores, I can imagine myself doing something else but it's in 3rd person and I have to listen to music to be in the mood.

No I am not crazy friends, it's just called daydreaming lol.

Just the same, the fact that someone had to spell it our for the rest of us proves that the sucker punch-line wasn't a very good one.

So the "Sucker Punch" to this series is that Zack Snyder is exactly as terrible as we all thought he was?

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