Zero Punctuation: Guild Wars 2

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Gammon Socket.... Oh my...

ipop@you:
I liked the Red Dwarf reference there with gazpacho soup. Personally I really want to see him do FTL considering his want for more space games.

I chuckled at how he managed to get it in there :)

When I click on the video, all I get is a repeating five-minute and twenty-five second video showcasing the features that The Escapist offers. I've tried to Google the problem, and looked around the site for others who share this issue, but I have come up empty.

Does anyone know why this is happening and, better yet, how to fix it?

Vegosiux:

I would have bought this part of your post if it wasn't for how you worded the rest. You know, about your MMO's getting "polluted" and all. Lot of negativity right there.

Ah, my mistake. I honestly meant to use the word "dilute" there. It was around 3am my time when I posted it, I really shouldn't post when I'm tired. Anyway, I fixed the post and I really do think this is a step in the right direction for the MMO industry. For too long MMOs have been trying to please both crowds but that's really just not possible without making one side or both feel like they aren't getting what they want.

VanQQisH:

Vegosiux:

I would have bought this part of your post if it wasn't for how you worded the rest. You know, about your MMO's getting "polluted" and all. Lot of negativity right there.

Ah, my mistake. I honestly meant to use the word "dilute" there. It was around 3am my time when I posted it, I really shouldn't post when I'm tired. Anyway, I fixed the post and I really do think this is a step in the right direction for the MMO industry. For too long MMOs have been trying to please both crowds but that's really just not possible without making one side or both feel like they aren't getting what they want.

Late nights do tend to do that to people, yes. Or make them very cranky. But yes, I get your meaning. I personally try to not think about people I don't actually play with and manage to do fine, in most cases, heh.

So did anybody else notice that Yahtzee used "Final Fantasy XIII-2" cover this time in 0:28? Curious, although in this case I would egg on Yahtzee to burn that game. It was a contradictory mess of a direct sequel to Final Fantasy XIII and I thought it was a decent game and one of the 4 games from the franchise (13,10,9,5) that I liked. I love FF6, FF7, FF4 though.

"You must be this resistant to tedium to watch Zero Punctuation" <- these days.

I don't know what it is. I just don't see what the point is in a video about the most popular recent game in the world right now, telling everyone stuff they already know, after just ignoring one of the few unique and interesting games in the very same genre that was ever released.

ZP is more frustrating than entertaining these days.

Darth_Payn:

iblis666:
DAMN YOU YAHTZEE!! You are supposed to talk me out of buying video games, but after watching your video a few hours latter having it eating at my insides i just bought it even though i never buy games newly released or even not on sale. I mean what the hell was that video, you usually make it sound like a mutant incestuous twin of its self with dicks sprouting all over it but this game you sounded positive.

Yeah, did my eyes and ears decieve me, Yahtzee being nice about a MMORPG? Ok, I think he was somewhat merciful to SW:TOR but he just hates WoW and its ilk. And does WoW really have a story to it? I thought they just add more stuff to do and grind away.
Liked the South Park shout out @ 1:35; Step 1, Begin Quest to Save World Step 2, ??? Step 3, PROFIT!

Well there's reasons behind it... reasons a lot of us understand. For one, the fantasy setting has been done so very much... you'd have to create something incredibly unique to stand out. Second, Yahtzee like myself seems much more interested in story than the social elements. It's probably why he was nicer to TOR, as that game's the only MMO I wasn't actually skipping the story dialogue on. Part of me still doesn't get why people flocked to TOR expecting raids; you should expect co-op KOTOR. It's like buying a Call of Duty game and expecting a good story.

Personally I think the MMO audience switching their priorities has killed the genre. It's falling into the same hole as shooters, where the build up is just one giant tutorial, and the endgame/raid content is all that matters. I really hate the current state of those games. What, I'm supposed to drudge through 50-80 levels of shit just so I can get to the stuff you concentrated on? Fuck off, I don't have time like that anymore. Make the build up just as interesting as the end, or I'll be tired of the grind in a week.

Glademaster:
snip
I think understand what you're trying to say I think but it just reminds me of people saying FF XIII was bad because it was linear. It wasn't bad because it was linear it is bad because it was just badly done. I assume you are saying the starting areas are bad because they are boring/give no urgency?

No. First of all that whole final fantasy argument is kinda bull because 10 was fairly linear too and it did much better whereas a lot of people didn't like 12 as much and it was the complete opposite. Final fantasy 13 fell apart on character and narrative pacing and also the least fun battle system ever created for a j-rpg. Not the point just had to be said. What I am saying is that the manner the story is presented makes the story too easy to miss or ignore. The story is presented in little blurbs in between the game rather then as part of it. Further thee blurbs are about 90% filler with no context to anything relevant to the character or the over arching plot. most quests are just hearing someone whine to you about how collecting x amount of macguffin will make their day. This makes a lot of people tune out so when something important does come up many people have already been conditioned to tune out. This is a bad way to tell a story. The heavy RPers will eat this up of course but for many playing the game it'll just be too much to slog through to get to the good bits.

I always find stories told this way daunting for this reason although I will tend to push through I know many people that simply don't and stare at me googly eyed when I explain what we did what we did. It's not that they didn't like the story but the way it was told made them tune out on reflex. The better way to do it is by integrating it as part of the in game play rather then keep it a separate entity that you have to work through in addition to playing the game. The original reason for my posts on this thread was to defend yahtzee saying there was no story because since the way the story is presented in these games is so external to the actual game itself it becomes easy to overlook. Better scripted events in controlled areas that involve allies as well as enemies would be a far superior way to advance the plot. Make the story part of the action and part of the game I don't think this is a new argument.

Furrama:

Whether or not it sucks is a matter of opinion and what you're looking for. Plenty of people don't care about the story in games, no matter how good/bad it is. They skip cut-scenes, they care little for context, they just want to smash in heads. Some people love the rails, and feel that's what makes a story stronger. Neither are wrong.

If you read up a bit on page two somewhere you'll see I also have my own issues with the story. Mine is not the mechanism in which they deliver the story, but how badly paced it can be in places, and dissonant at times with earlier themes and whatnot. It looks less like they didn't have faith in their story, but that they didn't have time to refine in delivery. It's all there, it just didn't gel very well. The story itself isn't even that bad, it just needed some epicifying at the end and better pacing in the middle.

But it does suck because people who are interested in story miss it. Also every other argument I mentioned. A good game story shouldn't be skipped because it doesn't need to be skipped. It's right there as part of the game and unfolds as you get through the action. I know this is difficult maybe even impossible in an mmo setting but as I said before that doesn't make it any less bad just an unfortunate necessity rather then indications of an inept design team. Standards are standards.

Glademaster:

The story is fine but not great by general standards. There is a plot and the only thing that is left a bit lacking is the explanation of Destiny's Edge's back story but Guild Wars 2 does not deliver its story like a lot of other games. It does it a bit more like Half Life 2. By that I mean you get a solid story that is not great but not bad if you just do the personal story. If you take the time to explore, talk to NPCs read, stuff on statues and listen to NPC conversations you learn a lot about the world that you may or not already know.

Actually, the game does deliver back story in its entirety. I "prepared" to play Guild Wars 2 so I noticed it right away, but I can see how a lot of people could have missed it. In this particular case, when you first meet Destiny's Edge all together, a group of children are playing "destiny's edge" nearby, on the bridge right in front of you. If you stop and listen to their chatter instead of rushing forward to complete the quest (a common theme in GW2, I notice), they relay the entire story... and all within the perspective of children playing games. It was actually quite fascinating.

Here's a tip to all the MMO vets playing Guild Wars 2: Stay awhile and listen. Hah, references... but seriously, more stuff happens, including a TON of exposition and characterization. Follow an NPC after you've helped them; chase a bird and see where it flies; stalk a group of bandits you just defeated and see where they run and who they talk to, if anywhere at all... go see how strands overlap, you may be surprised at its intricacies. For example, Penzan the Pirate and Explorer Smatti (minor spoilers and major easter eggs).

Tip number two, for the "story nerds" playing GW2: There is more than one story. Guild Wars 2 tells your story, sure, and the story of Destiny's Edge through the dungeons and whatnot (of which you are more secondary), though the two are separate entities. Additionally, the zones (and in some cases, individual areas within them) carefully weave their own narratives. The game is not going to hand you a wall of text and make you read, nor is it going to show you a series of unrelated scenes to tell you exactly why you need to save the farm from rampaging wurms or hungry bunnies... but it does tell you, if you follow tip #1.

EDIT: Tip #3, to all the OCD and Completionists, as well as the "Endgame" players: Completing all the objectives does not mean you've done everything there is to do in an area. Jumping Puzzles and achievements are hidden all over maps, and don't appear as part of the "map completion" tally (for the most part). In fact, there are entire zones of the game that have no objectives in them at all. Also, there is no running tally for Events. You can't know how many Events you haven't done, because there is no shopping list to fill.

PS; shameless whoring: To remedy yet another problem, why not join The Escapists guild? We're based mostly on Desolation in the EU and Tarnished Coast in the US; you can message either myself or Glademaster, or join us in the Guild Wars Group discussion for more details. We're pretty casual for the most part, though both servers are fairly strong in WvW, and we're working on making our presence there known.

PPS: How funny would it be if Yahtzee reviewed each race's story as if it were a different game? He did Humans this week, one of the more bland races' stories (I mean come on... they're Humans); I'm actually quite interested to hear his opinions on the Asura or the Charr.

Great review Yahtzee,really went well while I was eating some lasagne.:P

OFFT: Now with that gone I will go back to leveling my warrior in WoW MoP.

Have a nice day everyone!

Thank you very much, Yahtzee, for finally calling out this game on the dragon racism.

I'm fucking sick and tired of seeing evil dragons everywhere. There are better villains out there, like a mad king, or the good old fashioned demons and zombies. ANYTHING BUT DRAGONS!

inbe4 anyone suggests I read the garbage that is the Inheritance Cycle.

Kursura:
Nice review. Did the part about mass player ganking remind anyone else of Realm of the Mad God?

I was pretty much thinking of Realm throughout the interview after he said that.

I was told recently that you end up using skill points as a form of currency, hence after hitting 80 you still have an xp bar and every time you fill it you get a skill point. It seemed a little odd.

Deathfish15:

Rack:

Deathfish15:
I feel like Yatzee didn't play the game past the 30's. Because, in the early zones it is kind of weak and the threats aren't there so much, but in the later zones they're all over the place. In the 50-60 zones, for example, the corruption from the Elder Dragons is everywhere, and the minions are vicious. So, it's gradual progression.

Also, even at the end of the 1-15 zones there is a giant boss monster to fight. For Yatzee, this should have been a demon from the underworld summoned through a portal in the swamp. So, why didn't he mention that fight? It's epic and makes you feel like a hero.

Err, no there isn't. I'm not sure where you dreamed this but I've 100% all 5 starter zones and never saw that. Are you thinking of the giant monster at the end of the level 1 zone? Even so I suspect he played for 5 or so hours and didn't check his mail and thus never did his personal story missions so there's little chance he'd have bumped into that.

Yes, there is. It's called the Shadow Behemoth: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kFKFqzRhXKs

There's also one in the Sylvari starting zone, it's a giant worm. The Asura starting zone has the Fire Elemental. The Norn has the ice shaman dude. The Charr have the fire Shaman.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GIvCORxKXoA

So ya, each one of those starting zones have a giant monster. Those aren't the only zones with bosses, most all zones have meta-events that have bosses, some having 2-3 bosses.

That's a rare encounter, not a boss at the end. I've played GW2 for a very ling time and only seen one of those. There are more common giant monsters but he did mention those and (rightly) pointed out how lame they are.

Cid SilverWing:
Thank you very much, Yahtzee, for finally calling out this game on the dragon racism.

I'm fucking sick and tired of seeing evil dragons everywhere. There are better villains out there, like a mad king, or the good old fashioned demons and zombies. ANYTHING BUT DRAGONS!

inbe4 anyone suggests I read the garbage that is the Inheritance Cycle.

How about the First Law series? Absolutely awesome villain and no dragons in sight.

2xDouble:

Glademaster:

The story is fine but not great by general standards. There is a plot and the only thing that is left a bit lacking is the explanation of Destiny's Edge's back story but Guild Wars 2 does not deliver its story like a lot of other games. It does it a bit more like Half Life 2. By that I mean you get a solid story that is not great but not bad if you just do the personal story. If you take the time to explore, talk to NPCs read, stuff on statues and listen to NPC conversations you learn a lot about the world that you may or not already know.

Actually, the game does deliver back story in its entirety. I "prepared" to play Guild Wars 2 so I noticed it right away, but I can see how a lot of people could have missed it. In this particular case, when you first meet Destiny's Edge all together, a group of children are playing "destiny's edge" nearby, on the bridge right in front of you. If you stop and listen to their chatter instead of rushing forward to complete the quest (a common theme in GW2, I notice), they relay the entire story... and all within the perspective of children playing games. It was actually quite fascinating.

Here's a tip to all the MMO vets playing Guild Wars 2: Stay awhile and listen. Hah, references... but seriously, more stuff happens, including a TON of exposition and characterization. Follow an NPC after you've helped them; chase a bird and see where it flies; stalk a group of bandits you just defeated and see where they run and who they talk to, if anywhere at all... go see how strands overlap, you may be surprised at its intricacies. For example, Penzan the Pirate and Explorer Smatti (minor spoilers and major easter eggs).

Tip number two, for the "story nerds" playing GW2: There is more than one story. Guild Wars 2 tells your story, sure, and the story of Destiny's Edge through the dungeons and whatnot (of which you are more secondary), though the two are separate entities. Additionally, the zones (and in some cases, individual areas within them) carefully weave their own narratives. The game is not going to hand you a wall of text and make you read, nor is it going to show you a series of unrelated scenes to tell you exactly why you need to save the farm from rampaging wurms or hungry bunnies... but it does tell you, if you follow tip #1.

PS; shameless whoring: To remedy yet another problem, why not join The Escapists guild? We're based mostly on Desolation in the EU and Tarnished Coast in the US; you can message either myself or Glademaster, or join us in the Guild Wars Group discussion for more details. We're pretty casual for the most part, though both servers are fairly strong in WvW, and we're working on making our presence there known.

PPS: How funny would it be if Yahtzee reviewed each race's story as if it were a different game? He did Humans this week, one of the more bland races' stories (I mean come on... they're Humans); I'm actually quite interested to hear his opinions on the Asura or the Charr.

I seen the story from the kids but as far as I remember they glossed over bits but if you say it was everything I'll take your word for it. Although it was the main bits.

Loki_The_Good:
snip

So the game play is already part of the story. The only argument people make for consolidating story and gameplay is to make choice which affect the world which does happen in Guild Wars 2. There is plenty of little bits told between Dynamic Events. If you actually follow the chain rather than do 1 part and run off. Of course you will experience no story and find an arguably soulless world that way.

Ok firstly, that was exactly my point with FF XIII. It was not bad because it linear it was badly done that was the exact point I meant to get across. I for one did not like FF X but I can admit it has a good story despite being unashamedly linear. Same here in a way Guild Wars 2's story is not bad because it isn't immediately obvious and thrown on top of you. People who are interested in the story miss it because they literally run by. I mean people literally run by, over, around and under everything that will tell them stuff about the story. The aforementioned play is a good example of this among just clicking on stuff you can to see if anything pops up.

When I actually listened to the game I starting hearing amazing conversations. There is a charr engineer that throws cows at some other Charr Guarding a tower and a story of a Norn who killed a Drake Broodmother with said Broodmother's hatchling. Sure its a little fucked up but I just kept running by everything I wouldn't hear this. Passive mobs like Moa have something like 2 or 3 minutes of unique animation before they go into a loop and there is plenty more than just that. This to me seems like someone walking through a forest and complaining that they see no animals when they're shouting and talking loudly. You'll still have a nice walk but you won't see any wildlife.

GrandmaFunk:
so basically you want a lot of story but you don't want to get it through:

-in game text
-novels
-outside info (wiki, previous games in the series)

you didn't comment on NPC chatter, but I'm guessing you're not too keen on that either.

That pretty much just leaves cut scenes, right? is that what you want, hours and hours of cut scenes?

My personal preferred story-communication-method is the voice-over-from-an-absent-character-whilst-I'm-doing-something-else (as used in Halo and Borderlands).

Ideally, the voice-overs should occurred while I'm travelling somewhere (or doing some other boring-but-necessary activity), instead of when I'm being dog-piled. But I'll admit there's something really fun and frantic about trying to catch snatches of important dialogue whilst holding off a robot army with nothing but an underpowered SMG and bad language (which pretty much describes my Borderlands 2 experience thus far).

Another fairly acceptable method is what my boyfriend and I call the "exposition walk" (most notably used by Gears of War). This is when the character you're controlling slows down to a dawdle in order to have an important plot conversation (either with another character or with someone over a radio). You still haven't completely abandoned the game for a cutscene, but it does stop you running into the next homicidal-insect battle before you've been given your marching orders.

Well, I've heard some good things about Guild Wars 2, both from Yahtzee and from my friends. Perhaps I should give it a try...

On second thought, scratch that. I've got no more money to spend on games this month...

Well, that was surprisingly mild. Me, I'm really enjoying it, though I can see the obvious flaws in the story and mechanics.

Around level 20 I came at a bridge that a group of players was protecting from centaurs. Only at any one time there were just half a dozen centaurs attacking and 50 players defending. Yah...

Yahtzee? "Liking" MMORPGs? What necromancy is this?

Soon to be seen on the back of GW2 boxes:

"probably deserves some kind of medal"
Yahtzee, The Escapist

I want to play this game really bad since I've seen the first gameplay video; but I'm still short of dosh, and 60 bucks for a digital version doesn't add. Thank Jim this game doesn't require subscriptions.

Raioken18:
I was told recently that you end up using skill points as a form of currency, hence after hitting 80 you still have an xp bar and every time you fill it you get a skill point. It seemed a little odd.

In the first Guild Wars the level cap was only 20, and you got a skill point each level to buy a new skill. Once a character reached 20 they still get a skill point earned every time they would have gained a new level. GW1 had an very large number of skills to unlock, so that's why they did that. But not all players cared to unlock more skills than the core ones they needed for their favourite build.
So after months, or years, there were characters running around with hundreds of unused skill points.

I think GW2 threw in using skill points to buy special things like legendary weapon recipes, and whatever else, as a way to use up any surplus of skill points long-time players would have accumulated. A number of us who are fans of GW1 were glad the skill point earning after level cap was kept. It makes buying new skills in future expansions less stressful, because players who like unlocking every skill can save up their points in anticipation.

I find it strange how the people giving this game the most ire are the ones that haven't played it... I'm loving it , and having played the whole story of guild wars 1 and one of the expansions (factions) there is so much story there, but you do have to look for it - even in the human area, which as mentioned is the blandest of all the starting areas there is a battle raging between the centaurs and the humans, terrorist criminal groups attacking the city (or maybe that was just with my origin story), and so many more little battles going on, and if you talk to the NPCs then you get all the information.

I spent an hour or so wandering around the Norn starting town of Hoelbrook just listening in on conversations and chatting to people, listening to the wolf shaman telling the children of the wolf clan a story about the importance of the pack, wandering up to the shrine to the dead spirits and seeing the grave mementos of a god whose people gave their lives to protect the Norn and it was genuinely moving to see this out the way shrine that is so different to most games where the story is just there to move you to the next place to kill stuff, the characters, races and places are all fleshed out and intriguing.

I'd suggest people head over to Shamus Young's blog for a more detailed breakdown of the real pros and cons of the game

Nice review. And the ratio of insults to compliments was actually slightly smaller than one, so I think I call that a positive review too. And as much as I like GW2, I agree with the disconnect between the uber-evil elder dragons and how much random stuff you end up doing. If I hadn't played Eye of the North and been following this game's announcements I wouldn't have known they existed, much less how important they're supposed to be. Though humans are the worst of all in that respect, they really do have you do 50% farmwork in the starting area. Even if it's mechanically the same as helping with Asura experiments, at least the latter sound more fun.

Also, I'm suprised to see Yathzee pick the humans. I'd have pegged him for Asura, the little snarky bastards who feel they're smarter than everyone else and let them know at every occasion.

I really need to check this game out at some point.

Stupid uni, giving me loads of work...

MetalMagpie:

Ok firstly, that was exactly my point with FF XIII. It was not bad because it linear it was badly done that was the exact point I meant to get across. I for one did not like FF X but I can admit it has a good story despite being unashamedly linear. Same here in a way Guild Wars 2's story is not bad because it isn't immediately obvious and thrown on top of you. People who are interested in the story miss it because they literally run by. I mean people literally run by, over, around and under everything that will tell them stuff about the story. The aforementioned play is a good example of this among just clicking on stuff you can to see if anything pops up.

When I actually listened to the game I starting hearing amazing conversations. There is a charr engineer that throws cows at some other Charr Guarding a tower and a story of a Norn who killed a Drake Broodmother with said Broodmother's hatchling. Sure its a little fucked up but I just kept running by everything I wouldn't hear this. Passive mobs like Moa have something like 2 or 3 minutes of unique animation before they go into a loop and there is plenty more than just that. This to me seems like someone walking through a forest and complaining that they see no animals when they're shouting and talking loudly. You'll still have a nice walk but you won't see any wildlife.

I know that was your point I was saying no to your assumption on what I wanted and furthered that by agreeing with you on final fantasy XIII. I'm glad they do integrate story in that manner but can't they do more of that before hand. Instead of a quest discussion why not have it so as your walking down the road an npc runs you down and asks you for help and to follow him. On the way over he tells you what's going on maybe some larger world points if theirs time and then when you get close enough he points out the area and you can click on him to officially accept the quest. Or have it so a certain npc will come and save you and your group from an overpowered enemy attack in a tough battle with a scripted sequence then asks you to do him a solid after thus making you care about his problems and willing to listen. For the books you could have a university and take history and literature mini quizzes to gain experience for the books that you read so learning about the world helps make your character grow (I know some people will hate this but since it'd be voluntary I don't think it's an issue). Most people need to be invested in the story before they seek it out not afterwords.

GenGenners:
Very circus themed this week. Did he meet a clown at the expo?

He didn't see a clown, but he did see the rest of the contributors doing Gangnam Style. Close enough?

Loki_The_Good:

Glademaster:

Ok firstly, that was exactly my point with FF XIII. It was not bad because it linear it was badly done that was the exact point I meant to get across. I for one did not like FF X but I can admit it has a good story despite being unashamedly linear. Same here in a way Guild Wars 2's story is not bad because it isn't immediately obvious and thrown on top of you. People who are interested in the story miss it because they literally run by. I mean people literally run by, over, around and under everything that will tell them stuff about the story. The aforementioned play is a good example of this among just clicking on stuff you can to see if anything pops up.

When I actually listened to the game I starting hearing amazing conversations. There is a charr engineer that throws cows at some other Charr Guarding a tower and a story of a Norn who killed a Drake Broodmother with said Broodmother's hatchling. Sure its a little fucked up but I just kept running by everything I wouldn't hear this. Passive mobs like Moa have something like 2 or 3 minutes of unique animation before they go into a loop and there is plenty more than just that. This to me seems like someone walking through a forest and complaining that they see no animals when they're shouting and talking loudly. You'll still have a nice walk but you won't see any wildlife.

I know that was your point I was saying no to your assumption on what I wanted and furthered that by agreeing with you on final fantasy XIII. I'm glad they do integrate story in that manner but can't they do more of that before hand. Instead of a quest discussion why not have it so as your walking down the road an npc runs you down and asks you for help and to follow him. On the way over he tells you what's going on maybe some larger world points if theirs time and then when you get close enough he points out the area and you can click on him to officially accept the quest. Or have it so a certain npc will come and save you and your group from an overpowered enemy attack in a tough battle with a scripted sequence then asks you to do him a solid after thus making you care about his problems and willing to listen. For the books you could have a university and take history and literature mini quizzes to gain experience for the books that you read so learning about the world helps make your character grow (I know some people will hate this but since it'd be voluntary I don't think it's an issue). Most people need to be invested in the story before they seek it out not afterwords.

I see you have a bit of a misquote moment there but on we go. I'd like to say that is an awesome way to start but quests and Guild Wars should do it but that already happens. There is a Dynamic event in the second human area where a kid runs up to you and asks you to save his Mother from bandits. That is just one example there are others and all escorts give you a bit of why and what they are ferrying from place to place and what you have to protect them from. So this is there. If you are the first you get to start it and etc. On the other thing I'm not sure if that happens outside of the personal story as something similar happens in the Sylvari story.

On the investment a lot people miss out on the things that invest you in the story because they are to rush through it to reach this magically land of 80 and endgame. That is not really the true end game of Guild Wars 2 but you get good stuff there. The only arcs that could have used more exposition to invest you in the characters are the Order arcs.

Loki_The_Good:

MetalMagpie:

Ok firstly, that was exactly my point with FF XIII. It was not bad because it linear it was badly done that was the exact point I meant to get across. I for one did not like FF X but I can admit it has a good story despite being unashamedly linear. Same here in a way Guild Wars 2's story is not bad because it isn't immediately obvious and thrown on top of you. People who are interested in the story miss it because they literally run by. I mean people literally run by, over, around and under everything that will tell them stuff about the story. The aforementioned play is a good example of this among just clicking on stuff you can to see if anything pops up.

When I actually listened to the game I starting hearing amazing conversations. There is a charr engineer that throws cows at some other Charr Guarding a tower and a story of a Norn who killed a Drake Broodmother with said Broodmother's hatchling. Sure its a little fucked up but I just kept running by everything I wouldn't hear this. Passive mobs like Moa have something like 2 or 3 minutes of unique animation before they go into a loop and there is plenty more than just that. This to me seems like someone walking through a forest and complaining that they see no animals when they're shouting and talking loudly. You'll still have a nice walk but you won't see any wildlife.

I know that was your point I was saying no to your assumption on what I wanted and furthered that by agreeing with you on final fantasy XIII. I'm glad they do integrate story in that manner but can't they do more of that before hand. Instead of a quest discussion why not have it so as your walking down the road an npc runs you down and asks you for help and to follow him. On the way over he tells you what's going on maybe some larger world points if theirs time and then when you get close enough he points out the area and you can click on him to officially accept the quest. Or have it so a certain npc will come and save you and your group from an overpowered enemy attack in a tough battle with a scripted sequence then asks you to do him a solid after thus making you care about his problems and willing to listen. For the books you could have a university and take history and literature mini quizzes to gain experience for the books that you read so learning about the world helps make your character grow (I know some people will hate this but since it'd be voluntary I don't think it's an issue). Most people need to be invested in the story before they seek it out not afterwords.

Er... I think you've experienced a quoting error. I didn't say any of that.

"From Healing, to Tanking, to Wanking"

Sounds like what happens whenever I play a Paladin.
"HEAL ME!"
"TANK THAT BOSS!"
"....You cant really sneak so just stay there!"

"Like a man sending his gazpacho soup back to be warmed up." ... wait a second... is this not an incredibly obscure Red Dwarf reference!?

Loki_The_Good:

Glademaster:
snip
I think understand what you're trying to say I think but it just reminds me of people saying FF XIII was bad because it was linear. It wasn't bad because it was linear it is bad because it was just badly done. I assume you are saying the starting areas are bad because they are boring/give no urgency?

No. First of all that whole final fantasy argument is kinda bull because 10 was fairly linear too and it did much better whereas a lot of people didn't like 12 as much and it was the complete opposite. Final fantasy 13 fell apart on character and narrative pacing and also the least fun battle system ever created for a j-rpg. Not the point just had to be said. What I am saying is that the manner the story is presented makes the story too easy to miss or ignore. The story is presented in little blurbs in between the game rather then as part of it. Further thee blurbs are about 90% filler with no context to anything relevant to the character or the over arching plot. most quests are just hearing someone whine to you about how collecting x amount of macguffin will make their day. This makes a lot of people tune out so when something important does come up many people have already been conditioned to tune out. This is a bad way to tell a story. The heavy RPers will eat this up of course but for many playing the game it'll just be too much to slog through to get to the good bits.

I always find stories told this way daunting for this reason although I will tend to push through I know many people that simply don't and stare at me googly eyed when I explain what we did what we did. It's not that they didn't like the story but the way it was told made them tune out on reflex. The better way to do it is by integrating it as part of the in game play rather then keep it a separate entity that you have to work through in addition to playing the game. The original reason for my posts on this thread was to defend yahtzee saying there was no story because since the way the story is presented in these games is so external to the actual game itself it becomes easy to overlook. Better scripted events in controlled areas that involve allies as well as enemies would be a far superior way to advance the plot. Make the story part of the action and part of the game I don't think this is a new argument.

Furrama:

Whether or not it sucks is a matter of opinion and what you're looking for. Plenty of people don't care about the story in games, no matter how good/bad it is. They skip cut-scenes, they care little for context, they just want to smash in heads. Some people love the rails, and feel that's what makes a story stronger. Neither are wrong.

If you read up a bit on page two somewhere you'll see I also have my own issues with the story. Mine is not the mechanism in which they deliver the story, but how badly paced it can be in places, and dissonant at times with earlier themes and whatnot. It looks less like they didn't have faith in their story, but that they didn't have time to refine in delivery. It's all there, it just didn't gel very well. The story itself isn't even that bad, it just needed some epicifying at the end and better pacing in the middle.

But it does suck because people who are interested in story miss it. Also every other argument I mentioned. A good game story shouldn't be skipped because it doesn't need to be skipped. It's right there as part of the game and unfolds as you get through the action. I know this is difficult maybe even impossible in an mmo setting but as I said before that doesn't make it any less bad just an unfortunate necessity rather then indications of an inept design team. Standards are standards.

All I can say is that if you're interested in the story you'll have to work for it a wee bit more than you might be used to. It's just not thrown at you in a conventional way. Hang around and listen to conversations. Read things. Don't pop out of your personal story as soon as it's done. Talk to people before you go, they always have extra stuff to say, often good stuff. It's not that difficult, just don't barrel through content. Stop and smell the roses.

Most of what you'll miss if you miss anything is backstory. The going forward necessary to know stuff is relayed to you in the more conventional way so you won't miss it.

1: MMO's on release almost never have end-game content, and guild wars 2 by design can't go the "raid" route because it's trying to avoid ridiculous gear ceilings.

2: GW2 isn't what Arena Net tried to sell. It's not a revolution, and it's not exactly the next sliced bread. The combat can still get boring, and there's still plenty of grinds.

3: On the other hand it's still the best MMO we've seen since WoW. This is literally the game Warhammer Online wished it was however many years ago.

It's got flaws- there's still no real sense of impact in the game, and you never really figure out what the hell's the context of everything unless you uh....I don't actually know. There's still a lot I can't figure out about the game's story and I'm at 80.

The game lets you hot-swap weapons for most classes, but doesn't let you hot-swap gear which is irritating because what makes sword and board work as a survivability build clashes with what makes a beater build with a 2-handed sword work.

The game's LFG system is MIA. The dungeons are damn fun, but when I think that the last MMO I played this seriously was WoW it's kind of depressing that I'm taking such a step backwards and going back to going to the zone the instance is in and crossing my fingers that I'll find a group.

The crafting system was kind of half-asssed too. It's not exactly fluid when after completely clearing a zone and doing my damnedest to collect every single crafting node along the way I'm typically about half way through that particular material, while the zones are stepping up to the next level.

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