The Angels Take Manhattan

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wildpeaks:
btw when did he jump from 900 to 1200 years

In "The Impossible Astronaunt" the future version of the Doctor says he's 1100 or so, and Amy questions this since last time see saw him he was 980 something.

At the end of "God Complex" The Doctor leaves the 2 and goes to do stuff on his on. He must have been faffing about for a total of 100 years between the times he wasnt with the Ponds. I doubt the show will ever address it again though.

008Zulu:

TimeLord:
That was retconed out. Time Lords can regenerate an infinite number of times now.

Edit: Actually I think they made the limit 502 or something silly like that

From the Extended stuff I read, at the beginning of the Time War each Timelord had their number of regenerations reset. So Eccelston was 1, 12 to go. Though I think Tennant used up two in his run.

I wonder if we will still be stuck with River. Most likely.

Lady liberty is copper, but the Angels are stone.

No the limit was completely taken out of canon. Smith's Doctor was straight up asked how many times he can regenerate in a Sarah Jane Adventures episode and he responded by saying there was no limit. Sarah Jane Adventures series is considered canon and it was written by RTD.

gigastar:

Chrono212:
Hey Susan whoever can be bothered to answer, what's your opinion on the mid season break?

Strictly Come Dancing is starting this week on the BBC and i guess the Director General (or whoever) doesnt want the two to clash.

Besides, its a convienient excuse to drop the mandatory christmas special in as a part of the series.

Oh, the season break was announced a couple of years ago.
Mainly because they wanted to shift DW into the autumn line up, not the summer dead zone.

No one watched the tv in June, July and August as no one is indoors or in the country.

There's a press release somewhere where Moffet talks about it.

I personally loved the episode, I am incredibly sad to see Amy and Rory go but they had a good run and a good send off.

As NinjaDeathSlap said, it's not a show your meant to analyse and apply anything as boring as logic to but the thing that bugs me about the episode is just further evidence of my big problem with Moffat writing, he seems to be incredibly possessive of the show and is unwilling to show any continuity with Russel T. Davies' run, I like the redesigns of the Tardis and screwdriver but was it necessary to redesign everything and put on blinkers to continuity?

My problem with the episode is that the doctor cant land in 1930 New York because of the time interference from the Angels right? So how did he get to 1930 New York in 'Daleks in Manhattan'? And if it is the Angels that are causing the time interference how did he land next to the statue of liberty?

Additionally I just might be a better Doctor than the Doctor because I have been thinking of better solutions to problems recently and this was the easiest. As we know from 'Fathers day' when there is a paradox those Reaper things fly out of know where and feed on time energy, kind of like that given off by the Angels.
1. Fly back in this save Amy and Rory.
2. Cause paradox thus releasing the Reapers.
3. Let the Reapers eat all the Angels, them being the biggest 'infection' for them to focus on.
4. With the angels gone 1930 New York will become stable again and the Reapers will become week enough to vanish or just have River shoot them in the face.
5. Ice-cream.
6. Profit!

See, it's not that hard being Timelord.

Despite the fact I managed to get three paragraphs out of that it was honestly a minor annoyance for me, I still love the episode and was constantly choked up over the last half. I know a lot of people hated them (for whatever reason) but I'm really guna miss the girl who waited and the last centurion.

[Edit]: I was just thinking about this a bit more and I realised, you can't rewrite time if you see the future happen, ok I can get behind that rule...
image
Oh...
This is the most slapdash approach to the rules of time travel ever, Moffat set the rules and then stick to them.

wildpeaks:

Gizmo1990:
I disliked most of it as the only thing I hate more than Amy and Rory is River Song but here is my biggest problem with it. The Doctor cannot go back to 193 whatever New York or he will blow up Now York right? Ok. Go to any other place in the USA. Then get on a train to NYC, find Amy and Rory, get on another train back to where you parked the Tardis and off you go. Problem solved.

You'll save yourself frustration if you accept some parts will just be illogical/they needed plot devices: the currents seasons are not one of those shows where you can build on the premises to guess the range of what might happen next or what options are available.

I understand that and I have ignored many plot holes over the years, I started watching with the first Eccelston episode, its just that this one is such a BIG plot hole with such an easy solution.

Shadowstar38:

wildpeaks:
btw when did he jump from 900 to 1200 years

In "The Impossible Astronaunt" the future version of the Doctor says he's 1100 or so, and Amy questions this since last time see saw him he was 980 something.

At the end of "God Complex" The Doctor leaves the 2 and goes to do stuff on his on. He must have been faffing about for a total of 100 years between the times he wasnt with the Ponds. I doubt the show will ever address it again though.

Moffat has said that he belives that the Doctor is so old at this point that he no longer remembers how old he is and just makes it up. It's the one thing said by Moffat that I have liked.

Personally; didn't rate the episode at all. I didn't think Amy and Rory's send off was "heartbreaking" at all, and this is coming from a guy who loved Amy and Rory, and who thought The Doctor saying goodbye to Idris (a.k.a The human form of the TARDIS) was insanely sad.

My biggest issue was the tone of the show, it couldn't decide whether it was going for full on Angel creep out, (which could of worked because the idea of an Angel Death Camp is terrifying)or whether it was focusing on Amy and Rory leaving. Because it had to split it's attention between 2 great ideas, both ideas came across as half arsed.

Incidentally the few bits of the episode I really enjoyed were the River and Doctor married life moments. The cutesy banter when he arrives, the loving moment on the stair and the little tiff when she chastises him for regenerating her hand. Those were perfect.

Still, looking forward to the Christmas episode and how The Doctor will be rescuing soufflé girl from being trapped inside a Dalek body.

Chrono212:

gigastar:

Chrono212:
Hey Susan whoever can be bothered to answer, what's your opinion on the mid season break?

Strictly Come Dancing is starting this week on the BBC and i guess the Director General (or whoever) doesnt want the two to clash.

Besides, its a convienient excuse to drop the mandatory christmas special in as a part of the series.

Oh, the season break was announced a couple of years ago.
Mainly because they wanted to shift DW into the autumn line up, not the summer dead zone.

No one watched the tv in June, July and August as no one is indoors or in the country.

There's a press release somewhere where Moffet talks about it.

This summer there was the European cup, the Olympics and Paraolympics. Any series is going to try dodge that lot. Who (ok its a bad pun)in there right mind wants to go up against Jess Ennis, Sir Chris Hoy or David Weir going for gold.

Vegan_Doodler:

[Edit]: I was just thinking about this a bit more and I realised, you can't rewrite time if you see the future happen, ok I can get behind that rule...
image
Oh...
This is the most slapdash approach to the rules of time travel ever, Moffat set the rules and then stick to them.

Old!Amy was only actually about a day older than Young!Amy, remember the Two Streams was set up for the person to experience a lifetime of life in 24 hours, due to that plague.

I imagine if you're over a millennia old and seen so much death and destruction and experience heart ache, you'd go a little insane. The Doctor does need some sort of moral compass. Incidentally a human companion which the audience can relate to.

I hope the next companion isn't interested in the Doctor what so ever.

I did find that the Doctor did nothing that episode. It was all the Ponds...
-
One more obvious plot hole. River is able to get Amy to publish a book in the past. Yet wibbly wobbly.
Amy dies 5 years later than Rory which means Amy has 5 years of grief hell.
If Amy and Rory get sent back in time, they will appear to be similarly aged in that era.

What do the angels do to the bodies after they expired? Chuck them out into the street. Would the only way people would know who they were by their possessions? ID cards and advanced technology such as Mobile Phones...

albino boo:

Chrono212:

gigastar:

Strictly Come Dancing is starting this week on the BBC and i guess the Director General (or whoever) doesnt want the two to clash.

Besides, its a convienient excuse to drop the mandatory christmas special in as a part of the series.

Oh, the season break was announced a couple of years ago.
Mainly because they wanted to shift DW into the autumn line up, not the summer dead zone.

No one watched the tv in June, July and August as no one is indoors or in the country.

There's a press release somewhere where Moffet talks about it.

This summer there was the European cup, the Olympics and Paralympics. Any series is going to try dodge that lot. Who (ok its a bad pun)in there right mind wants to go up against Jess Ennis, Sir Chris Hoy or David Weir going for gold.

The Chinese.


Anyway, this article has some of Moffat's press release from 2010.

Olrod:

Vegan_Doodler:

[Edit]: I was just thinking about this a bit more and I realised, you can't rewrite time if you see the future happen, ok I can get behind that rule...
image
Oh...
This is the most slapdash approach to the rules of time travel ever, Moffat set the rules and then stick to them.

Old!Amy was only actually about a day older than Young!Amy, remember the Two Streams was set up for the person to experience a lifetime of life in 24 hours, due to that plague.

True but she wasn't only a day older she was in fact thirty-six years older because her stream was moving quicker then the one the Doctor and Rory started in. Also it was in fact Amy's future because it was the same time stream, the Doctor and Rory had just arrived too late.

If anything else this new rule negates any and all threat the Doctor has ever and will ever face because he already knows the Daleks didn't take over the earth in WW2 so there's no chance n them winning anyway.

[Edit]:

TimeLord:

008Zulu:

TimeLord:
That was retconed out. Time Lords can regenerate an infinite number of times now.

Edit: Actually I think they made the limit 502 or something silly like that

From the Extended stuff I read, at the beginning of the Time War each Timelord had their number of regenerations reset. So Eccelston was 1, 12 to go. Though I think Tennant used up two in his run.

I wonder if we will still be stuck with River. Most likely.

Lady liberty is copper, but the Angels are stone.

No the limit was completely taken out of canon. Smith's Doctor was straight up asked how many times he can regenerate in a Sarah Jane Adventures episode and he responded by saying there was no limit. Sarah Jane Adventures series is considered canon and it was written by RTD.

I wasn't aware that he had unlimited regenerations now, I thought he was joking in SJA. That's kind off disappointing I was looking forward to the 13th Doctor trying to find a way of staying alive or giving himself more regenerations.

I've said this before but the Weeping Angels should have remained a one off. Each time they are trotted out they have previously established lore messed with and they lose impact.

Blink was brilliant, each subsequent angel episode has been increasingly worse (hopefully) culminating in this episode's monstrosity.

Internal consistency has pretty much been obliterated since Moffat took over. I know things got changed in the past but you can't even rely on something said in the same series being true a couple of episodes later now.

albino boo:

Chrono212:

gigastar:

Strictly Come Dancing is starting this week on the BBC and i guess the Director General (or whoever) doesnt want the two to clash.

Besides, its a convienient excuse to drop the mandatory christmas special in as a part of the series.

Oh, the season break was announced a couple of years ago.
Mainly because they wanted to shift DW into the autumn line up, not the summer dead zone.

No one watched the tv in June, July and August as no one is indoors or in the country.

There's a press release somewhere where Moffet talks about it.

This summer there was the European cup, the Olympics and Paraolympics. Any series is going to try dodge that lot. Who (ok its a bad pun)in there right mind wants to go up against Jess Ennis, Sir Chris Hoy or David Weir going for gold.

Also, apparently, the BBC director wanted Moffat to have more time to work on new Sherlock, so add that in to the aforementioned disruptions and you get a major split. Next episode is going to be the Christmas special.

Vegan_Doodler:
True but she wasn't only a day older she was in fact thirty-six years older because her stream was moving quicker then the one the Doctor and Rory started in. Also it was in fact Amy's future because it was the same time stream, the Doctor and Rory had just arrived too late.

If anything else this new rule negates any and all threat the Doctor has ever and will ever face because he already knows the Daleks didn't take over the earth in WW2 so there's no chance n them winning anyway.

Doctor Who's always been a bit lose with the rules for time travel (timey-wimey anyone?) but I think the idea was that you can't change your own future if you see it happen, so the Doctor can't go and interfere with Rory and Amy's deaths as he knows when it happens, though anyone other time traveller could interfere with it who didn't know about it. At the very least, trying to interfere with such things puts a big strain on the timeline, which is something best avoided, as can been seen what happens when you try and change a fixed point in time, and New York's local timeline already taken a pounding with the Angels dropping people across their own timeline repeatedly.
The above example I think uses the excuse that Amy's concurrently existing in two different timelines, so it's not part of the same one and therefore an avoidable fate.

Of course, timey-wimey, it is what it is to suit things, though the "reading one's own future fixes it" does explain the whole "spoilers" thing between the Doctor and River, especially the first time he meets her and has her entire diary afterwards, and simply leaves it on a balcony because: "spoilers".

Although the effect of Amy and Rory's departure was softened by knowing it beforehand, I never quite expected them to leave quite so definitely as they did. I was more prepared for them just saying they've had enough and want to be left alone or something, so they're still "around", but instead they're completely gone.
Who will we kill endlessly now? :(

TimeLord:
No the limit was completely taken out of canon. Smith's Doctor was straight up asked how many times he can regenerate in a Sarah Jane Adventures episode and he responded by saying there was no limit. Sarah Jane Adventures series is considered canon and it was written by RTD.

I wonder how that is supposed to mesh with River transferring her remaining regenerations in to Smith. Since it's unlimited would it have killed her outright, or only being a partial, she had a set number?

I'm more and more considering to just ignore Moffat episodes canon-wise.
There are often very many plot and loreholes ... Retconning stuff that was good to create something mediocre ... And very often events that block certain events from happening (i.e. Doctor regeneration limit, no going back to thirtysomething NY, all this shizzle) ... Then the whole River Song plotstring, which just makes no sense whatsoever ...
It's not the existence of these holes that annoys me ... It's how massive, obvious and constantly appearing they are.

Susan, your (new?) avatar is amazing. Even just remembering this episode was making me a bit angry, then I saw that corgi and my heart lifted. So... thanks. Also, "hwa?" pleased me immensely. I can't look at that without hearing Professor Farnsworth.

If only Moffat could be forced to read TvTropes (the second-best website on the internet, after escapistmagazine.com ;)) and the entry for conservation of ninjutsu. Or just if he could understand the general concept explained in the first line of that entry: "In any martial arts fight, there is only a finite amount of ninjutsu available to each side in a given encounter. As a result, one Ninja is a deadly threat, but an army of them are cannon fodder."

4 angels were SCARY AS HELL. Blink was the first Doctor Who episode I'd ever seen as an adult and it is why I ever watched any more episodes. When you make hundreds, thousands, or millions of angels, they just become the embodiment of tedium (why is it that four angels will intelligently/efficiently hunt someone, but 100+ don't have the common sense to secure a single building that is necessary for their existence? Or 1000+ will just allow fresh, young meat to roam freely among them for hours before making a single move?).

This may be kind of dark, but why couldn't Rory had just been wrong? He and Amy jumping was actually a sad moment, to me (maybe just because it's cheap manipulation of anyone who loves his/her spouse), but any sadness was immediately undercut by "Nah, just kidding--they're both fine." Let them jump, but make them have to actually pay a price for their choice and creating a paradox; hit the ground and stay dead. The Doctor could have even gotten a chance to be in an episode, again, and maybe have some kind of (at least minor) character development after something like that. Oh well.

008Zulu:

TimeLord:
No the limit was completely taken out of canon. Smith's Doctor was straight up asked how many times he can regenerate in a Sarah Jane Adventures episode and he responded by saying there was no limit. Sarah Jane Adventures series is considered canon and it was written by RTD.

I wonder how that is supposed to mesh with River transferring her remaining regenerations in to Smith. Since it's unlimited would it have killed her outright, or only being a partial, she had a set number?

I would guess that she simply gave up her ability to regenerate completely. Not sure as it's never been properly explained

008Zulu:

TimeLord:
No the limit was completely taken out of canon. Smith's Doctor was straight up asked how many times he can regenerate in a Sarah Jane Adventures episode and he responded by saying there was no limit. Sarah Jane Adventures series is considered canon and it was written by RTD.

I wonder how that is supposed to mesh with River transferring her remaining regenerations in to Smith. Since it's unlimited would it have killed her outright, or only being a partial, she had a set number?

I feel like worrying about if/how other canon fits with River is kind of like worrying about your toe after you stub it on a huge brick of solid gold you just found--River can die (and stay dead, thank God), let's just all be happy for that.

Vegan_Doodler:

My problem with the episode is that the doctor cant land in 1930 New York because of the time interference from the Angels right? So how did he get to 1930 New York in 'Daleks in Manhattan'? And if it is the Angels that are causing the time interference how did he land next to the statue of liberty?

This episode was in 1938 (iirc) so he got there before everything got messed up so that's one way of explaining it.

Or you can say it never happened because of the 'universe reset' (which I hate because it's just lazy)

bravetoaster:

I feel like worrying about if/how other canon fits with River is kind of like worrying about your toe after you stub it on a huge brick of solid gold you just found--River can die (and stay dead, thank God), let's just all be happy for that.

Remember, she's still alive inside the library computer. So while we won't have her come back to life fully the doctor can always go and see her in cyberspace, or we get a riverbot to tag along so we'll likely not be shot of her until Alex gets bored.

Two words stick the forefront of my mind when I think of this episode: Inconsistent and Unnecessary.

First, I know, the laws of time and space in Doctor Who tend to fluctuate frequently but they should at least make sense within their own episode. Most of these have already been mentioned, the Statue of Liberty Angel, the Never Can Get Back to New York 1938 plot hole, etc. There's a point where suspension of disbelief just doesn't cover it any more and this episode passed it.

And all that being said, this episode just wasn't necessary. You want to have Amy and Rory leave? Fine, then just have them leave! I don't understand why every departure has to be some sort of tragedy and frankly it's getting a little tiring. In the classic series plenty of companions simply to chose to stay behind. Besides they were already building it throughout with Amy and Rory making lives for themselves. Give them one last hurrah and then then let them depart to settle down; no angst, no drama, just a fond farewell.

I feel I may have the answer to some of Susan's questions.

For starters, I'm prettty sure Rory got sent to 1938 by the baby angel that followed him when he went for coffee.
Why 1938?
It was probably aiming to send him to the apartment building.

As for Rory and River being hauled off to the crime boss guy? That was probably part of River's plan, along with posing as a private eye.
What plan?
She probably sniffed out something timey wimey going on near the crime boss and she was hoping to get in touch that way. After all, his last private eye vanished.

So why did the crime boss guy kidnap River instead of just giving her a call?
Because crime bosses don't make appointments, they send goons!

So why kidnap Rory as well?
Because he was with River and they couldn't leave a witness. Hence why they locked him up with the babies as soon as they got to the bosses' mansion.

But why did the crime boss want a private eye in the first place?
Because he found out about the angels and wanted to know more, a quirk that comes with the job.

So than how did River find out about the crime boss and his angel-related activity?
She's River, finding out about these things and getting involved is simply what she does all day. Much like the doctor.

So how did she get to 1938?
Vortex manipulator.

Where'd she get that?
She's River, she's resourceful.

But why was she exactly where Rory would pop up?
Could be a coincidence, could be she knew where he was going to pop (again: she's River, she's good at these things), and it could even be because she acted as some kind of timey wimey beacon because she herself is a time traveller. That last option would also explain why Rory wasn't sent straight to the apartment building.

So yeah, the reasons are all there (or at least it's possible to come up with some that make sense) but they sure could have done a better job explaining them. And that's coming from a guy who actually likes it when they don't waste time explaining little things.

Gizmo1990:
I disliked most of it as the only thing I hate more than Amy and Rory is River Song but here is my biggest problem with it. The Doctor cannot go back to 193 whatever New York or he will blow up Now York right? Ok. Go to any other place in the USA. Then get on a train to NYC, find Amy and Rory, get on another train back to where you parked the Tardis and off you go. Problem solved.

Perzactly, I was thinking that too.

Though, what really bugged me was that the random 30's gangster who was locking up Weeping Angels for no reason was able to do so, and then had found a way to hurt them.

In all the previous stories, they were invincible, even to the technology of the far future, but this guy could do it somehow...and then nobody wondered how he'd done it. I would have thought that information would have been sorta important.

(TBH, though, being made of stone never seemed that great defense to me anyway, look up youtube penetration tests of various bullets against various materials and you'll see what I mean, and if that doesn't work, close your eyes when you pull the trigger, or glue the monsters to the floor or wear clothes made out of mirrors or...)

tmande2nd:
Yeah...I just never really got into 11 and his companions.

See I LOVED Tennant because he could be charming and silly but dark and terrifying at the same time.

I mean Smith is good, but I cant ever take his anger seriously since he comes off like a child being mad. Where as Tennant can really show rage and anger and act like the master.

"The Waters of Mars" did what they are trying to show here much better. That the doctor loses focus without humans around him. That he starts seeing things as BENEATH him much like the Master does.

I dont hate 11, but I do prefer 10 a bit more.

I think that should be more props to Smith for his acting skills really, as his Doctor /is/ very childlike, he's very whimsical and sort of..."yipee", so I think the way he displays his emotions and anger fit his character extremely well. Of course that's a bit juxtaposed with his growing underlying bitterness, but then that's an extension of part of of his character as all 11 incarnations, rather than just Smith for me.

I mean Tennants anger was truly of the Great and Terrible wrath of God variety, shown like you say, very nicely in Waters of Mars, but also when Donna joins the Tardis and they fight the Racknos, as well as in "Turn Left", how he still needs someone with him to keep him in check.

I mean Tennants my favourite too, but I still think Smiths a great Doctor, and is perhaps let down more by sloppy writing, which can't be helped by him. Plus Tennant was a classically trained Shakespearian actor, so even with sloppy writing, his mere presence was enough to carry the episodes.

I would've also loved to have seen more Ecclestone episodes actually, I re watched the whole of Nu Who recently, and he has a really unique spin on the Doctor. Granted we'd have to put up with the bloody Tylers again, and I'm not sure I'm ready for that.

There should have been a scene where they tied Stephen Moffat to a chair and shot him once for every episode of this series he's made.

Wait, did I say scene? I meant documentary.

Yup. It was a bad episode for Doctor Who. Love'em or hate'em, this was not the quality of episode that the Ponds deserved for their farewell. The Weeping Angels keep getting more and more like the Daleks in that they do whatever the writers need them to do at the time, even if it calls into question everything that has come before them. This isn't necessarily a bad thing in and of itself, but when some things come up that the characters should question, like the Statue of Liberty and angels making noises, when it is just taken at face value in the show it has a tendency to draw negative attention to itself.

I'm sort of going to miss the Ponds. More Rory than Amy; Amy has worn thin on me over the past 10 or so episodes. I'm not sure what it is exactly that has changed, whether my natural inclination to drool over redheads overrode my natural inclination to find fault in everything so I didn't notice the flaws in the character and the direction/acting of the character, or whether she's been changed over that time. But I'm not upset to see Amy go. But I'm going to miss Rory, as he's turned into a far better character as he went along. (Also going to miss Brian. Brian rocks. So much better than Rose's mom.) He's been a breath of down to earth common sense in a crazy universe and that perspective is so fresh for Doctor Who. It's going to be a poorer show without Rory.

Susan Arendt:

tmande2nd:

I mean Smith is good, but I cant ever take his anger seriously since he comes off like a child being mad. Where as Tennant can really show rage and anger and act like the master.

"The Waters of Mars" did what they are trying to show here much better. That the doctor loses focus without humans around him. That he starts seeing things as BENEATH him much like the Master does.

Hmmm...as much as I love Smith, I have to agree with you on this point. Tennant does angry far better than Smith, but then Tennant gets too emo at the other end of the spectrum. Take Smith's happy and Tennant's mad, and I think you have the perfect characterization.

I think that I'm more inclined to like 9's mad. When he got mad, I thought that it was a legitimate possibility that he would tear the universe apart. 10 and 11 both have that silly/quirky happiness... they just could never really convince me they were truly mad. Ok, maybe some later Tennant scenes could as long as he didn't get emo.

Some of my (and my wife's) favorite parts of the series is when someone hurts his companions and you feel like he taps into all of the hidden anger over the Time War, death, destruction, and past pain he has gone through. I like the deep contrast between the crazy-fun-eccentric side of his character and the rage that is bubbling somewhere below the surface.

On Topic: This episode was poor. It lacked logical consistency or much logic at all. When the camera panned over the Statue of Liberty, I thought "they wouldn't do THAT. That's way too dumb." Then they did. Hopefully the Christmas episode is better. But, we get a new companion whose actress has already been introduced as a dalek that (probably) died... so, my hopes aren't super high as far as having a "logical" episode goes. It will more than likely be fun, though.

CosmicCommander:
There should have been a scene where they tied Stephen Moffat to a chair and shot him once for every episode of this series he's made.

Wait, did I say scene? I meant documentary.

I'd watch that! I wonder if it could be made into a long running series. Would probably be a lot of people's favourite new show.

TimeLord:

008Zulu:

TimeLord:
That was retconed out. Time Lords can regenerate an infinite number of times now.

Edit: Actually I think they made the limit 502 or something silly like that

From the Extended stuff I read, at the beginning of the Time War each Timelord had their number of regenerations reset. So Eccelston was 1, 12 to go. Though I think Tennant used up two in his run.

I wonder if we will still be stuck with River. Most likely.

Lady liberty is copper, but the Angels are stone.

No the limit was completely taken out of canon. Smith's Doctor was straight up asked how many times he can regenerate in a Sarah Jane Adventures episode and he responded by saying there was no limit. Sarah Jane Adventures series is considered canon and it was written by RTD.

I'm pretty sure it was an off the cuff joke that fans leapt on. As far as I'm aware no-one came out and said he wasn't just being flippant.

I'm open to it being canon, but I'd be willing to wager a fair amount that it was just a joke, apart from anything, the Doctors lives are a well known fact amongst the general British population, never mind just fans, they wouldn't be able to justify changing that notion just through a spin-off episode. At worst we'll still going to get an episode explaining why that's the case (of course it's Doctor Who so the explanation pretty much can't be satisfying, because the sacrifice about the show being so fun for everyone and the thing it is, is there's no hard and fast rules and space magic is the name of the game)

Ah yes, the plotholes...
I know this is a show where we are supposed to ignore them, but it is also a show targeted primarily at children and nerds. Nerds who will notice and be bothered by everything you get wrong.
The thing is, we do actually have a tolerance for this kind of thing, because no story involving timetravel will ever work out perfectly. But at least make an effort!
I guess that is my biggest complaint with the last two or three seasons. It feels like they don't even make an effort to think things through anymore.

also:
The statue of liberty can walk unseen across half of New York?
That is not scary. It is just dumb. They even mention how New York is the city that never sleeps. Even if that thing managed to somehow take a step or two unobserved, the resulting panic and news coverage would freeze it right in place...
But I liked the angel smiling! That was actually creepy. But apart from that they seem to have missed the point of the angels entirely by now. It really isn't that hard to grasp what makes them scary, how could they miss it so badly?

As far as the emotional component went, I quite liked it. I like the Ponds, I even like River. But I found the scene of them jumping off the roof the be far more climactic then the graveyard scene, but I get why they don't want them to go out in straight up suicide, thats ok.

I know many people dissagree, but I would like to see more of River. We keep hearing how much she is in love with him, but we never really see them have an actual relationship. We saw a bit of that now, but not nearly enough for me to actually believe in them in any meaningfull way. Relationships should be developed just much as characters, and I'm still missing that here.

And as for the final paradox, I get it. Time can be rewritten so long as you have not read it. So let's say history books don't count, for some reason, but a gravestone does. The gravestone does not say anything! Except that there is a gravestone with the Ponds name on it. It does not say how they died. Or when. Only how old they where. So if the doctor goes back in time, collects the Ponds, sets up the gravestone (as a fake) they could all live happily ever after. And that is ignoring the fact that "Amelia and Rory Williams" are names that probably occur more than once in the world.

I liked the episode, actually. I liked the emotional stuff, especially all the domestic foreshadowing at the start, but this stuff is really starting to bug me. Not just because it makes no sense, but because I feel that there hasn't been enough effort of thought put into it.

Chrono212:
Oh, the season break was announced a couple of years ago.
Mainly because they wanted to shift DW into the autumn line up, not the summer dead zone.

No one watched the tv in June, July and August as no one is indoors or in the country.

There's a press release somewhere where Moffet talks about it.

It was more because the London 2012 Olympics was on and felt that everyone would be watching that instead since the BBC was doing all the coverage.

Posting my FB comment here as well:

First thing - River lies as much as the Doctor. She's also a non-sequitor to the Doctor's chronology so she may know he already 'left them behind' because he hasn't told her yet. So she shows up in New York 1938 to say hi to dad because the Doctor will have told her.

This also leaves a get-out clause should they be returned for a special or two or come back later when the Doctor has regenerated. The gravestones were there and we know their ages HOWEVER there was no date revealed. It's quite possible that it was put there by their future selves to prevent a paradox because they know they'll get out of it eventually and be reunited. River might be waiting for them or they might be in another year like 1958.

This episode does add to the whole Rory/Chuck Norris thing that's been going on. "Rory died twice in the same night and the universe STILL wouldn't let him die".

I've been re-watching all of the "pond" episodes, and I've realized that I don't really care for the last two seasons of this show at all. I suppose at the time I was just happy to have new Doctor Who but now in hindsight most of the episodes have been boring or just sucked in comparison to past seasons.

Why? No, consistency with the "rules" of time. I know some people will say their are no real "rules" or that logic shouldn't apply. But the Doctor uses logic to fix problems so saying logic shouldn't apply is like saying everything is magic and this isn't science fiction just fantasy.

But on topic of this episode and why I really didn't like it. In "The Waters of Mars" the Doctor knew that everyone on the colony was going to die and that people on earth would never learn why. But he changed it anyway saved 3 people saw the timeline change and the universe didn't go ka-boom. In "A Christmas Carol" the Doctor literally goes back in time after meeting Karzan and starts changing his past. But now suddenly there some rule that if you know the future you can't change it? What? Where did that come from and if that's the case how can the doctor do anything in the past ever?

In these past seasons there have been so many aborted timelines, but now instead of going back in time to stop Rory from being abducted in the first place we're told that doing that would rip time? Another thing is how did that angel escape a paradox that was supposed to erase all the angels? How would it remember Rory, and how would it know right where they were to grab him? This episode makes so little sense that I don't even care that ponds are gone I only hope all the magic mcguffins and silly rules go with them.

At the start of the episode, we see three statues of children on the fountain. Then, there's only two. The giggling noise when Rory came back with the coffee, was the confirmation that the child statue touched Rory. So that's how he got sent back. Rory himself never realised it.

Susan Arendt:

Azuaron:
River was upset at the Doctor for wasting his regeneration power because they have a limited number of regenerations (remember that River used up all of her regenerations to cure the Doctor from poison). So he basically killed one of his "lives" to cure something that would have healed on its own in a couple months.

Eh, I don't buy that he used up a whole regen just to heal her wrist. But even if he did, they're his to use.

It seems like it must be a whole regen (or half or something), or anytime someone get injured he'd just walk up and poof heal them. Or it's a plot hole.

If my wife got shot in the leg to prevent me getting a broken wrist, I'd be pretty upset with her. Sure, it's her leg and blood, but, yeah, I'd be pretty upset.

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