The Counterpoint

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The Counterpoint

We Were Hot Before It Was Cool

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O.o

Is it not? Things might be different around here but that's one of the best counterpoints for males in his teens/early 20s where I'm from.

They seem fine to me.

Actually, it's an excellent counterpoint. The entire implied premise of the original assertion (Women are depicted badly in media) is that a gender disparity exists. Pointing out that it also happens to male characters disproves the inequality along gender lines, at which point the only available argument is "well, it's bad that humans of both genders are depicted unrealistically" which is a banal and asinine assertion, because, well, fat ugly and stupid people of both genders don't entice audiences.

There's a reason the movie "Hackers" starred Angelina Jolie and Johnny Lee Miller, and not two eczema-riddled overweight basement dwellers. The reason why DOA girls are all jiggly, wasp-waisted waifs is the same reason why Kratos is 7 feet of steel-reinforced steroid.

Gasbandit:
Actually, it's an excellent counterpoint. The entire implied premise of the original assertion (Women are depicted badly in media) is that a gender disparity exists. Pointing out that it also happens to male characters disproves the inequality along gender lines.

This is my stance as well. People don't do it to say that it's okay, they do it because the vast majority of the time people talk about how women are misrepresented in the media, they do so with the opinion that it is down to gender inequality, and that it is sexist.

If both genders are misrepresented then yes, it sucks, but it isn't down to sexism or discrimination, so the argument is invalid. If people want to complain about poor portrayals in the media, then they need to do so without trying to play some sort of "victim" card. That's what people take issue with, not the idea that there are poor portrayals.

Let's take South Park for instance. It was once used as an example of people being discriminated against (Jews for example), but it makes fun of everyone and everything. It doesn't choose one group to make fun of and leave others alone, so you can't complain that your particular group is being "picked on", because it isn't.

Not to mention that comparing a woman being physically hurt (objectively bad) to women not liking large breasted fictional characters (subjectively bad) is a poor example. Obviously it was done for comedic value, but it helps when it works with the message you are trying to make, rather than against it.

Let's not kid ourselves; the community would real the hell out of "Zombie Tintin", but I can imagine there would copyright issues.

Legion:

Gasbandit:
Actually, it's an excellent counterpoint. The entire implied premise of the original assertion (Women are depicted badly in media) is that a gender disparity exists. Pointing out that it also happens to male characters disproves the inequality along gender lines.

This is my stance as well.

I came in here thinking I had a brilliant counterpoint and you guys beat me too it.

I personally think there is a problem with women's portrayal in the industry, but that doesn't mean male's being objectified is irrelevant.

Gasbandit:
The reason why DOA girls are all jiggly, wasp-waisted waifs is the same reason why Kratos is 7 feet of steel-reinforced steroid.

No, actually, it really isn't.

The DOA chicks look like that because that's what guys (at least, the guys who play those games) want to look at.

Kratos is the way he is because that's what guys want to look like, and therefor play as.

Fappy:

Legion:

Gasbandit:
Actually, it's an excellent counterpoint. The entire implied premise of the original assertion (Women are depicted badly in media) is that a gender disparity exists. Pointing out that it also happens to male characters disproves the inequality along gender lines.

This is my stance as well.

I came in here thinking I had a brilliant counterpoint and you guys beat me too it.

I personally think there is a problem with women's portrayal in the industry, but that doesn't mean male's being objectified is irrelevant.

There is a difference between being portrayed unrealistically, and being portrayed demeaningly my fellow Y chromosome owners.

Grey and Cory are baiting the forums again?

image

Anyone have popcorn?

Krantos:
Grey and Cory are baiting the forums again?

image

Anyone have popcorn?

Fappy:

Legion:

Gasbandit:
Actually, it's an excellent counterpoint. The entire implied premise of the original assertion (Women are depicted badly in media) is that a gender disparity exists. Pointing out that it also happens to male characters disproves the inequality along gender lines.

This is my stance as well.

I came in here thinking I had a brilliant counterpoint and you guys beat me too it.

I personally think there is a problem with women's portrayal in the industry, but that doesn't mean male's being objectified is irrelevant.

Sure men may be objectified, but they're objectified for men. The main objection that feminists have isn't about objectification itself, but that it caters primarily to men.

Zhukov:

Gasbandit:
The reason why DOA girls are all jiggly, wasp-waisted waifs is the same reason why Kratos is 7 feet of steel-reinforced steroid.

No, actually, it really isn't.

The DOA chicks look like that because that's what guys (at least, the guys who play those games) want to look at.

Kratos is the way he is because that's what guys want to look like, and therefor play as.

I wonder who all those guys are that want to look like Kratos. His physique is utterly ridiculous. Then again, I can't stand God of War so perhaps I'm just not in the right demographic to judge such things...

Rainboq:
-Snip-

Well I think a lot of different people have different complaints/concerns regarding this whole debate. In the sense of "catering to men", yes you are correct.

Fappy:

Rainboq:
-Snip-

Well I think a lot of different people have different complaints/concerns regarding this whole debate. In the sense of "catering to men", yes you are correct.

Yeah, additionally, I'm generalizing from what I've learned from taking women and gender studies in university, the definition of feminism, like any definition, varies greatly from person to person.

If they are catering to men, they are doing a poor job at it. I don't think a lot of people want to be Kratos, his life isn't exactly a happy one, and I don't think the majority of people in this world desire nothing more than to look like a living boulder (just to name GOW, as it was named in a few posts above).

I think this debate has been raised a lot of times, but maybe I missed a similar question and the answers to it, so I am going to put this one here:

What would be considered a good heroine? Let's say we put a woman in Kratos's situation, what should she do to be considered a good character (for the look, I think anything would be fine, let's say something not needlessly skimpy, and probably a fit body, but nothing too oversexualized)? If she did exactly the same things as Kratos, would that make everyone happy?

Rainboq:
Sure men may be objectified, but they're objectified for men. The main objection that feminists have isn't about objectification itself, but that it caters primarily to men.

Because Women have different interests and it's impossible for women and men to share a common opinion of "This guy looks good."

Implying that anything is "Catered" towards any gender implies that the genders themselves want different things.

Which again implies divide. Which there isn't really.

Scars Unseen:

Zhukov:

Gasbandit:
The reason why DOA girls are all jiggly, wasp-waisted waifs is the same reason why Kratos is 7 feet of steel-reinforced steroid.

No, actually, it really isn't.

The DOA chicks look like that because that's what guys (at least, the guys who play those games) want to look at.

Kratos is the way he is because that's what guys want to look like, and therefor play as.

I wonder who all those guys are that want to look like Kratos. His physique is utterly ridiculous. Then again, I can't stand God of War so perhaps I'm just not in the right demographic to judge such things...

Individual tastes notwithstanding, I'm sure there are more guys who want to be Kratos than there are girls who want to fuck Kratos.

As I said in another gender inequalities thread, using the Kratos example has always puzzled me. The man is (especially by the end of God of War 3) an irredeemable, murdering bastard, who slaughters is own wife and child and then destroys the entire world in pursuit of his own personal revenge. Yeah, I'm sure those are the exact qualities a woman looks for in a man, and that's without even going into his physical appearance.

Now, characters that are more along the lines of 'lovable rogue'; cheeky, confident, and ever so slightly dangerous to know. The sort of person that's more than capable of doing harm, but it's ok because what they do is for a higher purpose and goddamn, they just look so sexy while they're doing it (Ezio Auditore springs to mind here, although I'm a guy so make of that what you will)... now they would probably be a better example of 'The Guy Version of the DOA Chicks'. Although, it's still not an accurate analogue, as people actually put enough thought into Ezio to actually give him a character, which is more than any of the DOA girls have, who are basically just sex dolls that we can't actually touch.

mdqp:
If they are catering to men, they are doing a poor job at it. I don't think a lot of people want to be Kratos, his life isn't exactly a happy one, and I don't think the majority of people in this world desire nothing more than to look like a living boulder (just to name the previous example).

I think this debate as been raised a lot of times, but maybe I missed a similar question and the answers to it, so I am going to put this one here:

What would be considered a good heroine? Let's say we put a woman in Kratos's situation, what should she do to be considered a good character (for the look, I think anything would be fine, let's something not needlessly skimpy, and probably a fit body, but nothing too oversexualized)? If she did exactly the same things as Kratos, would that make everyone happy?

Honestly you wouldn't need to do too much work to the character to swap genders aside from some story elements like backstory. I mean there's already an archetype for these kinds of female characters:

The Lunatic:

Rainboq:
Sure men may be objectified, but they're objectified for men. The main objection that feminists have isn't about objectification itself, but that it caters primarily to men.

Because Women have different interests and it's impossible for women and men to share a common opinion of "This guy looks good."

Implying that anything is "Catered" towards any gender implies that the genders themselves want different things.

Which again implies divide. Which there isn't really.

I'd argue that there is divide, the female sex drive is vastly different in terms of what it wants and what its looking for. That said, there is common ground, like David Tennant, or John Barrowman.

When women buy games in the same numbers as men do, then things will change. The issue will not be addressed until there is money in it for the industry to do so. Its about catering to the audience that spends more, right now, that's men. Sorry ladies.

Of course one can argue that its because of this misrepresentation that women don't buy games in the same numbers as men, and that the cycle is a vicious circular reference.

Krantos:
Grey and Cory are baiting the forums again?

image

Anyone have popcorn?

I have plenty.

image

Now let us enjoy.

image

But to have something to say vaguely related, instead of both sides complaining at each other, why not work together and complain about both things at once?

Fappy:
Honestly you wouldn't need to do too much work to the character to swap genders aside from some story elements like backstory. I mean there's already an archetype for these kinds of female characters:

Should I take that as a "no" to my question? If so, then the question remains, what would be considered a good character? I mean, if it's so easy to point out the flaws, it shouldn't be that hard to at least have some ideas on this or that character to fix her.

I have a few ideas of my own, but I am more interested in listening to other's people opinions, rather than sharing mine.

That picture is wonderful, by the way. Where does it come from?

DVS BSTrD:
There is a difference between being portrayed unrealistically, and being portrayed demeaningly my fellow Y chromosome owners.

Exactly what I wanted to say. Actually, Movie Bob from "The Big Picture" says it a lot better:

http://www.escapistmagazine.com/videos/view/the-big-picture/5950-Tropes-vs-MovieBob

If any of you still thinks that "men are also exploited" is a valid counter argument, please watch the video.

Rainboq:
I'd argue that there is divide, the female sex drive is vastly different in terms of what it wants and what its looking for. That said, there is common ground, like David Tennant, or John Barrowman.

Seems more one of personal tastes, to be honest.

Personally, I find people like Kratos to be rather ugly. And yeah, Tennant is cute.

I have a female friend that holds the opposite opinion.

I don't think genders themselves affect one's ability to hold opinions and tastes.

mdqp:

Fappy:
Honestly you wouldn't need to do too much work to the character to swap genders aside from some story elements like backstory. I mean there's already an archetype for these kinds of female characters:

Should I take that as a "no" to my question? If so, then the question remains, what would be considered a good character? I mean, if it's so easy to point out the flaws, it shouldn't be that hard to at least have some ideas on this or that character to fix her.

I have a few ideas of my own, but I am more interested in listening to other's people opinions, rather than sharing mine.

That picture is wonderful, by the way. Where does it come from?

It's a character from Conan the Destroyer. She's interesting because she's probably the only female character in those movies that's not really sexualized in anyway. I suppose it is a "no" considering most men would not find the above picture "attractive", but that doesn't mean some men/women wouldn't and it doesn't necessarily mean fem-Kratos wouldn't work as a character. However, any sexual themes in her character/story would have to be handled carefully... I'd imagine it would be very easy to fall into the trap of "male character in a female body".

The Lunatic:

Rainboq:
I'd argue that there is divide, the female sex drive is vastly different in terms of what it wants and what its looking for. That said, there is common ground, like David Tennant, or John Barrowman.

Seems more one of personal tastes, to be honest.

Personally, I find people like Kratos to be rather ugly. And yeah, Tennant is cute.

I have a female friend that holds the opposite opinion.

I don't think genders themselves affect one's ability to hold opinions and tastes.

I'm not referring to gender, but to a person's sex, there's a massive difference. That said, personal taste does factor into it, but you can't forget authorial intent. Kratos was meant as a fantasy persona for men, as evidenced by how he's characterized (and the sex minigame).

mdqp:

I think this debate has been raised a lot of times, but maybe I missed a similar question and the answers to it, so I am going to put this one here:

What would be considered a good heroine? Let's say we put a woman in Kratos's situation, what should she do to be considered a good character (for the look, I think anything would be fine, let's say something not needlessly skimpy, and probably a fit body, but nothing too oversexualized)? If she did exactly the same things as Kratos, would that make everyone happy?

Any female character from Atomic Robo. I'd specially point out The Sparrow.

Rainboq:
I'm not referring to gender, but to a person's sex, there's a massive difference. That said, personal taste does factor into it, but you can't forget authorial intent. Kratos was meant as a fantasy persona for men, as evidenced by how he's characterized (and the sex minigame).

Same thing in common conversation.

Nor is it hard to work out if you hold loftier definitions.

I don't think authorial intent is all that big of a factor to be honest. It may nudge, but, it doesn't render interpretation completely moot.

Added to that, people have different perceptions of authorial intent.

For some Kratos is a character to ogle and assuming one is of a submissive personality, the sex game is almost like a fan fiction with a female character they could insert themselves into the role of.

I suppose it's an unconventional thing however.

Women tend to be held to standards in which such a thing is unacceptable. That's where the issue is, I suppose.

mdqp:
-his life isn't exactly a happy one-
-look like a living boulder-

What would be considered a good heroine?

The point isn't that anyone would want his exact life or shape, but that the average mind (male or not) is enticed by the topic of revenge (see:every God of War game) and physical might. The story and body for this argument are symbols of what people desire - not what they actually desire.

A good heroine would be Samus, if she didn't take her suit off all the time. That's not saying you shouldn't see your hero's body, but again, she'd be a symbol that how they look is 100% irrelevant to their capabilities. I like Lightning from FF13 a lot, but whenever there was a shot of her miniskirt/legs, I was disappointed slightly by the male audience pandering.

franksands:
Any female character from Atomic Robo. I'd specially point out The Sparrow.

Isn't that a comic character? I meant videogame characters, sorry if I wasn't clear (I might take a look at that, though, because it sounds interesting).

See, I'm puzzled. People (usually men) always say men are just as objectified and it's just as bad, yet men are almost always the big damn heroes who save the day while being awesome while women are almost always side characters who exist primarily for eye-candy (if they even appear on screen at all).

These don't seem like equal problems.

DTWolfwood:
When women buy games in the same numbers as men do, then things will change. The issue will not be addressed until there is money in it for the industry to do so. Its about catering to the audience that spends more, right now, that's men. Sorry ladies.

Of course one can argue that its because of this misrepresentation that women don't buy games in the same numbers as men, and that the cycle is a vicious circular reference.

According to what I can dig up, women make up almost half of the general gaming audience. About 47%, and one of the fastest growing markets. If the ESA is to be believed, at least.

http://www.theesa.com/facts/gameplayer.asp

They're buying, and playing, games just almost as much as men (I wouldn't be surprised if it was pretty much equal by the end of the year). The audience, and money, is there.

Rainboq:
Sure men may be objectified, but they're objectified for men. The main objection that feminists have isn't about objectification itself, but that it caters primarily to men.

After following the links (thanks Grey) I think that the objetification and stereotypes that are done by men for men do damage as well, but in a different way. Since it "desirable" to be an expendable, blank "300" or "Call of Duty" soldier is a male fantasy why fight against it?

OfficialJab:

The point isn't that anyone want his exact life or shape, but the average mind (male or not) is enticed by the topic of revenge (see:every God of War game) and physical might. The story and body for this argument are symbols of what people desire - not what they actually desire.

A good heroine would be Samus, if she didn't take her suit off all the time. That's not saying you shouldn't see your hero's body, but again, she'd be a symbol that how they look is 100% irrelevant to their capabilities. I like Lightning from FF13 a lot, but whenever there was a shot of her miniskirt/legs, I was disappointed slightly by the male audience pandering.

I am not particularly attracted to physical might and revenge (this last one I could almost find offensive for being considered a "male" thing... Also, I have seen my fair share of vengeful women in my life), so I guess this boils down to what the majority is like, and I can't say I have any numbers with me pro or against it, so I am going to go with you on this one, but I am not entirely convinced.

Samus isn't a bit like Gordon Freeman? A little too much of an empty vessel to be considered a character (also, this would raise again my previous question: would it be enough to switch gender to solve all problems? I don't see Samus doing anything too different from, let's say, Alucard, just to name the other half of the "metroidvania" world).

Edit: I can't believe I wrote "Morgan" instead of "Gordon"... It's just that he is too awesome, so he is always in my mind, I guess...

On a lighter note (no pun intended), the woman in panel 2 looks like she's being attacked by a fire piranha, and now I want to see a SyFy monster movie featuring fire piranhas.

Irridium:
According to what I can dig up, women make up almost half of the general gaming audience. About 47%, and one of the fastest growing markets. If the ESA is to be believed, at least.

http://www.theesa.com/facts/gameplayer.asp

They're buying, and playing, games just almost as much as men (I wouldn't be surprised if it was pretty much equal by the end of the year). The audience, and money, is there.

Different markets, I'd imagine. For the purposes of surveys, something like FarmVille will count as well. But even further from that, you'd need to break down genres. How high a percentage of the AAA-action genre is male/female? I'd wager significantly different from 60/40. To some extent, females may feel isolated from those games just because the heroes are men, but how many?

However, the 'fastest growing market' point is hugely valid, and more female representation in general will probably start to appear. I'm banking on CoD to allow female characters online, if that isn't already implemented (I don't think it is, but I don't really play).

mdqp:
I am not particularly attracted to physical might and revenge (this last one I could almost find offensive for being considered a "male" thing...

Samus isn't a bit like Morgan Freeman? A little too much of an empty vessel to be considered a character.

I said male or not, not being female. Whether you're a woman or man, the physical strength to overcome someone who wrongs you is just a human desire. Not for 100% of the crowd maybe, but even for them it stimulates something.

Their personalities aren't really being discussed here, because it's a case-by-case whether their gender is incorporated into the story enough for it to matter. I'd say GF is a good example as well, because gender isn't exploited in any way. I don't think dialogue too often enforces the stereotyping. Maybe that's not true, but I can't think of any examples.

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