Mists of Pandaria Review

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I can't wait to play this. Just a few more weeks and I will have a brand new computer and will have the expansion.

Dammit this review isn't helping me stay away from this game. I ended Cata and said that's it, NO MORE! But now.... dammit this game is crack I tell ya! Maybe I'll get it this weekend >_>

Hey guys,

If you're looking for more information on the Pandaren starting area and how the monk plays, you can check out my preview. Admittedly, it's based on the beta but nothing has changed from a few weeks ago.

And I'm glad the rest of you feel the same way I do about MoP. :)

Greg

Capitano Segnaposto:

Carnagath:
I have two problems with MoP. First, there are no massive epic "wow" moments or zones during leveling. It's all pretty and well presented, but no places that just leave you with your mouth open (like the first time entering Dragonblight in Wrath). It all feels a little too familiar. Second, holy shit, it is unexpectedly hardcore. Now, that's not all bad. The "good" kind of hardcore, is that all the 25 man bosses I've done so far in the first raid, are very well thought out and have a surprising amount of tactics for an entry level raid of a new expansion, and will no doubt be even harder on heroic mode. The "bad" part, the multitude of daily quests that you pretty much need to do every single day if you want your professions to mean anything or to get any valor loot. So, if you want to raid in this game semi-seriously, you need to play daily, and several hours. I'd say 3 or 4 minimum. Add to those the raid times, and you've got a pretty heavy schedule. Of course, you can always just do LFR and talk to noone, but you're better off not playing if you're gonna do that. So... it's silly, it's pretty, it's challenging, it's at times exhausting.

Hm? What are you on about?

I have played and completed all available (Normal) raid boss encounters and I have not touched a single daily? I am also in a "Semi-Serious Progression Guild". You can earn Valour in many other ways other than Dailies (and honestly, it doesn't matter much if you know what your doing or how you play your class). Sure I go oom every now and again, but I just pop my cooldowns, Mana goes back to full and I continue on.

Every single valor reward requires you to have reputation with factions, which you raise by doing dailies. If you don't do that, your valor points won't buy you anything. Also, every single high-end recipe for all professions requires reputation if you want to acquire it. I'd start doing them asap if I were you. Unless your guild tolerates you showing up for raids with blue gear for months until you gear yourself up from raid drops alone, in which case hurray!

"That's why it's important to heed the Pandaren's advice and slow down. Take it in. There's no need to rush through everything to do in Mists of Pandaria. It will still be there whenever you want to play it."

Uh, yeah, right. Pardon me while I collapse in a fit of hysterical laughter at the notion of the majority of WoW players actually slowing down to take in the plot and setting. Everybody and their grandmother knows WoW is played at a breakneck pace, completely disregarding the plot and context so you can kill-kill-kill, level-level-level, blast up to top tier like you're getting paid for it and not the other way 'round. After all, that's why Blizzard keeps releasing plot-changing patches and expansions as fast as possible, 'cause only the players that have been playing since Day One deserve to feel like they're a part of the overarching story and not just eternally playing catch-up to everyone else, going through content that everyone else is already bored with and has been done a billion times over. Those day-one diehards are the only players that matter, after all, which is why Blizzard caters to them and expects new players to get the damn lead out and get caught up already you slackers, 'cause they've got a schedule to keep and your enjoyment and satisfaction doesn't factor into that. Really, who cares if you've got the core game and three expansion packs worth of content to get through if you've just started, you knew that when you bought this game, now get crackin' before they announce the fifth one!

So yeah, this is kind of a cynical point of view, but it's how I feel; it's the point of view of a player who played WoW frequently for several years, leaving and coming back, giving it multiple chances to both the game and to Blizzard. But no matter how much they improved (or if not improved, just shook up) the gameplay, they never did anything to address this issue I've just described; their client treatment.

In short, to hell with WoW and to hell with Blizzard. I've joined Guild Wars 2, I'm enjoying it immensely, and so far ArenaNet has treated me far better as a customer than Blizzard did. It's still pretty young and GW2 does have room for improvement, but so far they've done better right out of the gate than a lot of MMOs, WoW included, and I've got a lot of hope for 'em as time goes on.

Carnagath:

Capitano Segnaposto:

Carnagath:
I have two problems with MoP. First, there are no massive epic "wow" moments or zones during leveling. It's all pretty and well presented, but no places that just leave you with your mouth open (like the first time entering Dragonblight in Wrath). It all feels a little too familiar. Second, holy shit, it is unexpectedly hardcore. Now, that's not all bad. The "good" kind of hardcore, is that all the 25 man bosses I've done so far in the first raid, are very well thought out and have a surprising amount of tactics for an entry level raid of a new expansion, and will no doubt be even harder on heroic mode. The "bad" part, the multitude of daily quests that you pretty much need to do every single day if you want your professions to mean anything or to get any valor loot. So, if you want to raid in this game semi-seriously, you need to play daily, and several hours. I'd say 3 or 4 minimum. Add to those the raid times, and you've got a pretty heavy schedule. Of course, you can always just do LFR and talk to noone, but you're better off not playing if you're gonna do that. So... it's silly, it's pretty, it's challenging, it's at times exhausting.

Hm? What are you on about?

I have played and completed all available (Normal) raid boss encounters and I have not touched a single daily? I am also in a "Semi-Serious Progression Guild". You can earn Valour in many other ways other than Dailies (and honestly, it doesn't matter much if you know what your doing or how you play your class). Sure I go oom every now and again, but I just pop my cooldowns, Mana goes back to full and I continue on.

Every single valor reward requires you to have reputation with factions, which you raise by doing dailies. If you don't do that, your valor points won't buy you anything. Also, every single high-end recipe for all professions requires reputation if you want to acquire it. I'd start doing them asap if I were you. Unless your guild tolerates you showing up for raids with blue gear for months until you gear yourself up from raid drops alone, in which case hurray!

It hardly takes months to get geared for me since I am the only Resto Druid, no OOMkins around either. Regardless gear only makes things easier, it doesn't make you a better player. A Good player in Heroic gear should be able to do all the raid bosses (on normal mode) currently with little to no issues.

Mike Fang:
"That's why it's important to heed the Pandaren's advice and slow down. Take it in. There's no need to rush through everything to do in Mists of Pandaria. It will still be there whenever you want to play it."

Uh, yeah, right. Pardon me while I collapse in a fit of hysterical laughter at the notion of the majority of WoW players actually slowing down to take in the plot and setting. Everybody and their grandmother knows WoW is played at a breakneck pace, completely disregarding the plot and context so you can kill-kill-kill, level-level-level, blast up to top tier like you're getting paid for it and not the other way 'round. After all, that's why Blizzard keeps releasing plot-changing patches and expansions as fast as possible, 'cause only the players that have been playing since Day One deserve to feel like they're a part of the overarching story and not just eternally playing catch-up to everyone else, going through content that everyone else is already bored with and has been done a billion times over. Those day-one diehards are the only players that matter, after all, which is why Blizzard caters to them and expects new players to get the damn lead out and get caught up already you slackers, 'cause they've got a schedule to keep and your enjoyment and satisfaction doesn't factor into that. Really, who cares if you've got the core game and three expansion packs worth of content to get through if you've just started, you knew that when you bought this game, now get crackin' before they announce the fifth one!

So yeah, this is kind of a cynical point of view, but it's how I feel; it's the point of view of a player who played WoW frequently for several years, leaving and coming back, giving it multiple chances to both the game and to Blizzard. But no matter how much they improved (or if not improved, just shook up) the gameplay, they never did anything to address this issue I've just described; their client treatment.

In short, to hell with WoW and to hell with Blizzard. I've joined Guild Wars 2, I'm enjoying it immensely, and so far ArenaNet has treated me far better as a customer than Blizzard did. It's still pretty young and GW2 does have room for improvement, but so far they've done better right out of the gate than a lot of MMOs, WoW included, and I've got a lot of hope for 'em as time goes on.

This is what I gathered:

"QQ Blizzard doesn't cater to me. Screw Blizzard Long Live New MMO #123214!"

Also Guild Wars 2 is a great game. It is just a shame that it has little to no endgame content (much like SWTOR).

Mike Fang:
So yeah, this is kind of a cynical point of view, but it's how I feel; it's the point of view of a player who played WoW frequently for several years, leaving and coming back, giving it multiple chances to both the game and to Blizzard. But no matter how much they improved (or if not improved, just shook up) the gameplay, they never did anything to address this issue I've just described; their client treatment.

In short, to hell with WoW and to hell with Blizzard. I've joined Guild Wars 2, I'm enjoying it immensely, and so far ArenaNet has treated me far better as a customer than Blizzard did. It's still pretty young and GW2 does have room for improvement, but so far they've done better right out of the gate than a lot of MMOs, WoW included, and I've got a lot of hope for 'em as time goes on.

I have always played Wow how I want to play it. I like the story and the quests, I don't have to do what you assume other players are doing, racing to the end game. Based on my experience and the comments here, players in MoP are taking their time to enjoy the new content despite what you absolutely know to be true.

You are free to do what you like, but that doesn't change my opinion that this new expansion is excellently designed.

Slow down

yet you're paying a subscription fee to pay. Understand that some players may want to burn through content.
I've experienced with no subscription fee I do slow down and relax.

Blizzard are very good at polishing what already exists. To some people, they want advancement as well as refinement.

Capitano Segnaposto:

This is what I gathered:

"QQ Blizzard doesn't cater to me. Screw Blizzard Long Live New MMO #123214!"

Also Guild Wars 2 is a great game. It is just a shame that it has little to no endgame content (much like SWTOR).

Eh, sort of, I guess. Thing is it's not just me I feel the game's not catering to, but it's also not catering well to any new clients; I think that's a big damn group of people to be slighting.

As to GW2 and little to no endgame content, I wouldn't know since I haven't maxed out yet, seeing as how the game's not even 2 months old yet. But I'm sure there will eventually be additional content added, and eventually expansion packs will be coming; I'm just hoping they give players adequate time to enjoy and explore what's already there before adding even more.

Greg Tito:

I have always played Wow how I want to play it. I like the story and the quests, I don't have to do what you assume other players are doing, racing to the end game. Based on my experience and the comments here, players in MoP are taking their time to enjoy the new content despite what you absolutely know to be true.

You are free to do what you like, but that doesn't change my opinion that this new expansion is excellently designed.

*shrugs*

S'your time n' money. Go nuts.

I always thought WoW catered to new players very well and MoP is no different. I don't understand what your gripe is exactly, Mike.

Greg

scw55:

Slow down

yet you're paying a subscription fee to pay. Understand that some players may want to burn through content.
I've experienced with no subscription fee I do slow down and relax.

Blizzard are very good at polishing what already exists. To some people, they want advancement as well as refinement.

Oh you can totally race to the end if you want and there's a lot more content ready for you when you do than in other expansions. I'm just saying with MoP it's more pleasurable than ever to just take your time leveling through the new zones.

This review pretty much reads my thoughts. I couldn't care less about the expansion in the start, because seeing Panda's getting added permanently to the world of warcraft, seemed like a bad joke. Until I try it out and got suckered in. Pandaria is an awesome place with great quests that indeed, want you to slow down and enjoy the ride. Not rush to lvl 90 to start raiding, 'cause that ain't new.

I couldn't care less though still for the pandara as a playable race. Tried one for 10 minutes and I thought, yeah not gonna happen! The monk class is pretty sweet though. Nothing says awesome like roundhouse kicking a bird in the mouth!

Greg Tito:

scw55:

Slow down

yet you're paying a subscription fee to pay. Understand that some players may want to burn through content.
I've experienced with no subscription fee I do slow down and relax.

Blizzard are very good at polishing what already exists. To some people, they want advancement as well as refinement.

Oh you can totally race to the end if you want and there's a lot more content ready for you when you do than in other expansions. I'm just saying with MoP it's more pleasurable than ever to just take your time leveling through the new zones.

I'm glad.
I'm just concerned that players who may be alert of personal cash flow may be too distracted with 'getting value for money' than actually taking time to enjoy themselves.

Nocturnus:
Posting this as an outsider looking in, reading meticulously every change that they have made with the patches leading up to Panederia, but one of the things that I loved the most about World of Warcraft was its talent trees, and how they made every character class feel unique and special.

With Panderia, this feature seems all but removed. You just pick your role, and it assigns your talents for you; giving you access to abilities without much choice or speciality to speak of... with the exception of a few small choices like "increased run speed" every 15 levels.

Why would they do something like this? I mean, it's one of the biggest criticisms that World of Warcraft gets in the MMO Space: that being its extreme simplicity. Why would the developers say "Let's make it easier!" knowing this.

Or am I wrong?

Honest responses please. I could very well be mistaken, but this is how everything seems to read, and it's holding me back from getting Panderia.

Forgive me if this is a bit redundant; you've already gotten some good explanations here.

I feel like this is less about hand-holding and more about providing actual choices to the player. Extra Credits actually did a pretty good job of explaining it awhile back (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lg8fVtKyYxY&feature=g-user-u). During the "leveling phase," most of your talent points went into things that looked useful at the time, and this was fine. But once you hit the "end game content" phase, it all boiled down to: "What will increase my ability to fulfill my role effectively?" This lead to a lot of people complaining about wanting to play a certain way, but that not being an option, because another class/tree was simply mathematically better.

The idea with talent trees now seems to be: how do you want to play? I think there are still some calculations in there (such as damage skills and survival skills on the same tier), but I feel like it's less mandatory to pick only the best talents for your role and more open to pick things you think could be useful (such as another CC or buff for your teammates).

I'm not an expert by any means, but it seems like they were going for choice over calculation.

Capitano Segnaposto:
They constantly have sales where you can buy all the previous games and MoP itself for the price of a single new game. It isn't expensive at all.

Nice sentiment, but doesn't address the core problem. That being that regardless of whether I'm playing or not, the game takes $15 from my wallet per month. No other game in my collection does that to me, and they also "will still be there when I get back".

In other words, I can't exactly say I understand or comprehend the stance of "slow down and take in the sights" in a game where your time is literally money. The only reason I'm able to "enjoy the sights" in GW2 is because it's not taking $15 per month from me. I can also do that for normal console or PC games, like Skyrim or Torchlight or whatever. I can afford to take a short break in those games, and come back to pick up where I left off. That is not the case with WoW.

It's especially damning in WoW where people tell you that you "can't judge the game fairly" if you haven't hit max level. Well, what that basically means is that the game is a rush to max level so you can enjoy the "endgame content". "Slow down" is sort of a counter-intuitive philosophy for a game built around its endgame content being the main draw.

scw55:

Slow down

yet you're paying a subscription fee to pay. Understand that some players may want to burn through content.
I've experienced with no subscription fee I do slow down and relax.

Ding. Here's someone who gets it. Don't charge me 15 bucks a month, and I'll be happy to "slow down and relax" my way through content. But when your game is costing me AAA retail price every 4 months of play, yes, I will very likely rush through it all.

CriticKitten:

Capitano Segnaposto:
They constantly have sales where you can buy all the previous games and MoP itself for the price of a single new game. It isn't expensive at all.

Nice sentiment, but doesn't address the core problem. That being that regardless of whether I'm playing or not, the game takes $15 from my wallet per month. No other game in my collection does that to me, and they also "will still be there when I get back".

In other words, I can't exactly say I understand or comprehend the stance of "slow down and take in the sights" in a game where your time is literally money. The only reason I'm able to "enjoy the sights" in GW2 is because it's not taking $15 per month from me. I can also do that for normal console or PC games, like Skyrim or Torchlight or whatever. I can afford to take a short break in those games, and come back to pick up where I left off. That is not the case with WoW.

It's especially damning in WoW where people tell you that you "can't judge the game fairly" if you haven't hit max level. Well, what that basically means is that the game is a rush to max level so you can enjoy the "endgame content". "Slow down" is sort of a counter-intuitive philosophy for a game built around its endgame content being the main draw.

scw55:

Slow down

yet you're paying a subscription fee to pay. Understand that some players may want to burn through content.
I've experienced with no subscription fee I do slow down and relax.

Ding. Here's someone who gets it. Don't charge me 15 bucks a month, and I'll be happy to "slow down and relax" my way through content. But when your game is costing me AAA retail price every 4 months of play, yes, I will very likely rush through it all.

Sorry. Still think it is a poor excuse. 15 bucks when you are in an expensive hobby like gaming isn't that much. At all. So after two months of playing, what would you have done? Gotten a good 200 hours (generally over two months) for only thirty bucks. Not much money spent at all. Especially considering most games nowadays are around 60 bucks for 20 hours.

Capitano Segnaposto:
Sorry. Still think it is a poor excuse. 15 bucks when you are in an expensive hobby like gaming isn't that much. At all. So after two months of playing, what would you have done? Gotten a good 200 hours (generally over two months) for only thirty bucks. Not much money spent at all. Especially considering most games nowadays are around 60 bucks for 20 hours.

"You're a gamer ergo you should expect to pay through the nose for games" is not a REASON for paying 15 bucks a month, it's a lousy EXCUSE thrown up by people too lazy to assess exactly how wasteful that spending actually is.

Again, I reiterate that you are paying 1 brand new AAA title's worth of cash every four months to WoW. But that apparently isn't concrete enough for you. So let's just measure this price against other popular games on the PC.

* To purchase all of the available content for Magicka, one would need to forfeit 4 months of WoW payments. Alternatively, you could buy a 4-pack of just the normal game and play with your friends for 2 months of WoW payments.
* 2 months of WoW = 1 copy of games like The Witcher 2 (with some included DLC), Deus Ex: Human Revolution, etc that are only a few years old at most.
* 4 months of WoW = 1 copy of relatively new games like Skyrim, Diablo 3, Starcraft 2, etc that all provide hundreds of hours of play.

And of course, there's GW2, which I've logged over 300 hours on since its release, and it cost me 4 months of WoW. And after I hit the 1k mark? It'll still have the same overall cost. That's the thing you don't understand: when you buy any other game, your overall cost doesn't change, but with subscription games, it's ALWAYS increasing, forcing you to log more and more hours to rationalize the expense. Heck, since buying GW1, I've logged nearly 2k hours on it, which I'm pretty sure makes it infinitely cheaper than any amount of hours I could ever log on WoW. I'd have to bend time and space itself to give me extra hours in the day JUST to make WoW statistically cheaper for me than GW1 was. Sorry, but games without subscriptions are going to be cheaper than those with subscriptions, no matter how you measure it. This is an undeniable fact of reality. :P

And keep in mind that those price tags are just covering the recurring fees of the game, and not covering the entry cost of buying all of the expansions, which would currently cost a customer about $60 according to Blizzard's own web site. So basically, WoW is already equal in cost to any other AAA game on the market from the very start, and only continues to grow more expensive than any other market retail game from there.

So yeah, sorry, not buying this ridiculous narrative that WoW is "cheap" for the money....and definitely not buying the narrative that I, as a gamer, am forced to accept that my hobby is expensive just because some random person on the internet says it has to be, especially when a booming indie market proves your narrative wrong all by itself. I buy relatively few games in any given year, so I buy games as cheaply as possible and I pick only the games I intend to juice for a long, long time. WoW can't provide me with either.

You want to spend 15 bucks a month? Go for it. I'm not stopping you. But don't insult my intelligence with this rationalization that you're getting the "better deal" because it offers so many hours of play. You're not getting any deal at all. You're choosing to pay increasingly more money for a game that is, by this point, very much showing its age. And no matter how many hours you log, your cost-to-playtime ratio is going to end up worse than it would with any other non-subscription retail game. If that's your thing, that's fine and dandy. But let's not be stupid and insult people who look at Pandaria and say "yeah, no thanks" for the perfectly valid reasons highlighted above.

I don't play WoW, but came here to say the Blizzard had pandarens before Kung Fu Panda even had trailers. Idk if they show up before W3, but I loved using them as an extra hero :P I even based a monk character in DnD off of the Pandaren brewmaster from DotA, anthromorphic panda and all.

Nocturnus:
Posting this as an outsider looking in, reading meticulously every change that they have made with the patches leading up to Panederia, but one of the things that I loved the most about World of Warcraft was its talent trees, and how they made every character class feel unique and special.

With Panderia, this feature seems all but removed. You just pick your role, and it assigns your talents for you; giving you access to abilities without much choice or speciality to speak of... with the exception of a few small choices like "increased run speed" every 15 levels.

Why would they do something like this? I mean, it's one of the biggest criticisms that World of Warcraft gets in the MMO Space: that being its extreme simplicity. Why would the developers say "Let's make it easier!" knowing this.

Or am I wrong?

Honest responses please. I could very well be mistaken, but this is how everything seems to read, and it's holding me back from getting Panderia.

Being forced to waste your time researching the best talent distribution while having no say in the matter is not "choice".

It's like saying Diablo 2 offered so much build freedom - no it didn't, you just had to do your homework and make one of the few viable builds or else you couldn't farm at peak efficiency. Diablo 3 threw it out and of course people whined about the lack of permanency, by which they meant the game was less punishing to other people and therefore "less fun" to them.

I think that the majority of people complaining for the monthly fee aren't capable of paying $15 a month and/or can't play the game enough to justify the cost.

Seriously, $15 a month isn't that much for an MMO and arguably it's one hell of a price for the amounts of entertainment you get for it.

That said, It's been a long while since the last time I played WoW... and I'm a bit curious now.

el_kabong:

Whispering Death:
I know i'm just a killjoy but... mists of panderia, kind of racist?

Absolutely. At least, most of the voice acting is. Almost every main villain sounds like everyone's impression of an angry Japanese man (including the occasional "L"/"R" switch-up).

I don't think that there's any real harm intended, but you can't deny that it's stereotypes a-plenty.

Sure, but you have to blame Tolkein for that. The idea that races are distilled into very specific stereotype in fantasy is nothing new.
And anyhow, we've had the stereotypical tauren native american thing for a while now, and the troll Caribbean thing

SupahGamuh:
I think that the majority of people complaining for the monthly fee aren't capable of paying $15 a month and/or can't play the game enough to justify the cost.

Seriously, $15 a month isn't that much for an MMO and arguably it's one hell of a price for the amounts of entertainment you get for it.

That said, It's been a long while since the last time I played WoW... and I'm a bit curious now.

Ah yes, the claim that it's "it's not THAT much money"....we have dismissed that already above.

But to summarize since people obviously choose not to read: "it's not that much money" is what you say when you're making a EXCUSE for your purchase. It's not a REASON for your purchase.

If you're happy buying it, that's fine and dandy, but don't lie to yourself or others by claiming it's not that expensive. It is. You just don't realize HOW expensive because you're only spending $15 at a time. This is why microtransactions tend to be such an amazing way to make money in MMOs these days....people will generally end up spending far more money on a microtransaction item that costs $1 than they would on an item that costs $10 because they perceive the $1 mark as so low that they can spend more frivolously.

What you need to look at is the totals and the ratios, and the numbers are staggeringly against WoW and much more in favor of the GW2 model (the same model that all other non-MMO retail games use). Let's illustrate with an example:

WoW costs $60 to buy now, and $15 per month, so approximately $240 for a year. GW2 costs $60.

Assuming a person plays GW2 for about 4 hours a day for an entire year, they get 1460 hours of gameplay for $60, a ratio of 0.0411 hours per dollar. Pretty solid.

For a player to get roughly the same value out of WoW, they would need to log about 5840 hours, or 16 hours per day.

Numbers don't lie. WoW is statistically MUCH more expensive than comparable games, and it's all thanks to that "cheap" subscription cost you guys keep pretending doesn't amount to anything. In fact, it makes all the difference in the world.

CriticKitten:
Snip.

Sure, whatever you feel comfortable with, I still think it isn't that much money and I'm not actively playing any sub based MMO currently (though I loved The Scret World), to me, it's not an excuse.

SupahGamuh:

CriticKitten:
Snip.

Sure, whatever you feel comfortable with, I still think it isn't that much money and I'm not actively playing any sub based MMO currently (though I loved The Scret World), to me, it's not an excuse.

But it is. It's most definitely not a reason.

"I pay because I love the game" is a reason to pay for a service.

"I pay because I appreciate the customer service and love how the company pays attention to its customers" is a reason to pay for a service.

"I pay because it's cheap" is NOT actually a reason for your behavior at all. If you are only buying it because it's cheap, then you're claiming that you based your purchase and continued support of the game not on the qualities of the game itself, or the customer service you've received, but rather ENTIRELY on the price sticker on the box. You're basically describing yourself as the sort of person who buys everything they see when they go to the store, even stuff you don't need, just because "it's cheap". I'm pretty sure that most people don't actually MEAN that when they're saying it. When people say "I pay for it because it's cheap", they're not giving a reason for paying the subscription, they're making an excuse to rationalize the subscription. And it's either because they were struggling to come up with a way to express their actual reasons, or (for some reason) because they feel their behavior needs to be defended.

Let's not get mistaken here. I don't mind if you feel it's worthwhile to pay because you enjoy the game, that's perfectly fine. If you like WoW, I'm not telling you that you're not allowed to like it or to feel as though you're getting value for your money.

What I was taking issue with is this two-pronged notion that
a) the subscription isn't expensive (it is);
b) that gaming is an expensive hobby and therefore it's impossible to avoid expenses (it's not).

Whether or not you find value in the game is an entirely separate thing from whether or not the subscription financially stacks up as "cheaper" than its competition.

CriticKitten:

"I pay because it's cheap" is NOT actually a reason for your behavior at all. If you are only buying it because it's cheap, then you're claiming that you based your purchase and continued support of the game not on the qualities of the game itself, or the customer service you've received, but rather ENTIRELY on the price sticker on the box. You're basically describing yourself as the sort of person who buys everything they see when they go to the store, even stuff you don't need, just because "it's cheap". I'm pretty sure that most people don't actually MEAN that when they're saying it. When people say "I pay for it because it's cheap", they're not giving a reason for paying the subscription, they're making an excuse to rationalize the subscription. And it's either because they were struggling to come up with a way to express their actual reasons, or (for some reason) because they feel their behavior needs to be defended.

Allow me to turn this one around: "I only play games that are free because all I care about is that it's free, regardless of how good or bad the game is." I see this a lot in regards to The Secret World, which is not only a shame, but makes me scratch my head.

Tangent: Why is it that consoles are judged solely on their price point, games are judged by their graphics, and MMOs are judged by this (in my opinion) stupid calculation of hours played versus money spent? Whatever happened to judging a game by how much fun you have playing it (like Yahtzee tends to do)? Why the need for all these (again, in my opinion) pointless excuses for not liking something? Does the amount of money you spend on a hobby really matter if you ENJOY said hobby enough?

On-topic, MoP looks fun but I'm burned out on medieval fantasy games. I've got STO and TSW and that's enough for me.

JesterOfFire:
Allow me to turn this one around: "I only play games that are free because all I care about is that it's free, regardless of how good or bad the game is." I see this a lot in regards to The Secret World, which is not only a shame, but makes me scratch my head.

We aren't in disagreement on this point.

Tangent: Why is it that consoles are judged solely on their price point

They're not.

games are judged by their graphics

Because people are stupid.

and MMOs are judged by this (in my opinion) stupid calculation of hours played versus money spent?

Woh now, did you read this thread or did you only read the last post? I didn't initiate the whole "number of hours you get from the game" talking point. That originated from other people in this thread defending the high purchase price by claiming that the number of hours they got out of it rationalizes their purchase. I was merely replying to that point by showing that it really doesn't, because if you're assessing PURELY on hours per dollar, WoW is not as much of a value as other games. You'd have to play the game almost non-stop to compare with other titles on the market after only a year's worth of playing, and it just gets worse from there.

As I've said no less than three times already, if you like WoW and find it a value for your money, that's perfectly fine because it's a subjective assessment of value, and opinions will differ. That's not the same as claiming "the game is cheap" (which is a statement, and a provably false one), or that "the number of hours you get from the game makes up for its cost" (which, again, is provably false as there are many other games which provide far superior buying power), or "gaming is an expensive hobby, so you should expect things to cost a lot" (which is just a stupid statement all around).

I do wish people would read what I've actually said before throwing their two cents in. I wouldn't have to keep repeating myself then.

Whatever happened to judging a game by how much fun you have playing it (like Yahtzee tends to do)? Why the need for all these (again, in my opinion) pointless excuses for not liking something? Does the amount of money you spend on a hobby really matter if you ENJOY said hobby enough?

Yes, quite frankly, price DOES matter. If I can get a similar experience from a competitor for much less money, I think it's perfectly logical to call out someone for having prices that are too high. WoW's subscription costs may have made sense back when the game was released, but in this modern age, the pricing schema is woefully outdated and isn't going to draw the numbers like it used to, as many of WoW's would-be competitors have learned. Even WoW is learning this lesson, as their subscription count has plunged well below its peak from a year or two ago, and will likely drop off again once Pandaria has been out for a little while.

Just downed the first raid boss on Heroic last night :)

Helluva lot more fun than DS ever was!

So far, I'm loving this xpac. I'm a completionist, and thus I do every single daily everyday + all of the other extremely fun things!

Honestly, haven't had this much fun in WOW since BC / early Wrath.

Ok, just to get it out of the way: orientalism. Comparatively benign (not nearly as racist as...well...everything about Trolls), and pretty minimal, but it's still worth keeping an eye on.

In terms of mechanics, I have a theory about what Blizzard is doing with the spec system and it goes like this: They've said they wanted to eliminate "cookie cutter builds" by making all talents viable and wholly dependent on how you personally want to play. The thing is, over the course of vanilla, dozens of updates and 3 expansions they've been tweaking the talent trees over and over again for years, cutting and replacing things. Problem is, if there are underlying causes for the cookie cutter effect (which it seems there were) you'll never get near them by simply pruning outlying branches. So they decided to go right to the core mechanics of the system and tear out everything that looked unnecessary or like it would confine player choice to certain talents and builds.

Here's the thing: if they're playing the long game (which after 4 expansions I'm gonna assume they are) then this shouldn't be intended to permanently remove all variation from the system. Having cut off all dead weight (and possibly a few good things that didn't seem good during the culling) they are now free to rebuild the spec mechanic with a better understanding of the mistakes they made the first time. If they can keep the element of choice and avoid creating new non-viable talents or builds, we can have the variation back plus the ability to modify our specialization to our own tastes without compromising our usefulness to parties, raids and guilds.

So that's my theory. I could be wrong, maybe it's just all dumbed down pap for the idiots and 12 year olds of the internet, but I'm gonna be optimistic on this one. The dev team has a pretty good track record for learning from their mistakes.

el_kabong:

Now, for you PvE people, this really doesn't matter. However, I play Horde on Sargeras. It's PvP and the percentage of Alliance on our server is 90%. I have seen Horde players unable to continue questing because there are groups of Alliance that simply pounce on whatever Horde are around. Not because it's a group of people who are intentionally griefing Horde zones, but because when one Alliance decides that he's going to jump on Horde for a little PvP fun, 4 other Alliance are around and more than happy to gang up to get a free Honor Kill.

It's funny, because I play Alliance, and that EXACT SAME THING happens to us on my server! I play Bleeding Hollow, and while I don't think the Alliance/Horde ratio is that skewed for us, it's still impossible to push forward with questing sometimes due to being ambushed by random Horde. I'm not sure if it the same happens to the Horde, but I definitely agree: giving Ally and Horde the exact same quests and questgivers in the new zones was a bad idea.

Find it rather entertaining other than that, though. Although I only started playing last summer, so Cata is all I have to compare it to.

el_kabong:

Whispering Death:
I know i'm just a killjoy but... mists of panderia, kind of racist?

Absolutely. At least, most of the voice acting is. Almost every main villain sounds like everyone's impression of an angry Japanese man (including the occasional "L"/"R" switch-up).

I don't think that there's any real harm intended, but you can't deny that it's stereotypes a-plenty.

Which is absolutely nothing new when you look at the original vanilla races, the BC races, and even the cata races. Using ethnic attributes that people can easily identify with to give character to...well, characters is not racist, nor is it particularly bad. If it were, you'd probably have to get rid of the better part of all media ever created.

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