It's About Characters, Stupid

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DC doesn't have better villains. They're pretty even in my view. Yes yes, DC has Batman's rogue gallery, Sinestro, etc. but Marvel has provided us with Magneto, Dr. Doom, Loki, Thanos and several others with their own complex view on the world and interesting motivations.

The Avengers did portray Loki as the "MWAHAHAHA I SHALL TAKE OVER THE WORLD" kind of guy/god, but remember his interactions with Thor in that movie, as well as every scene he had in the Thor movie and you can clearly see that he's a conflicted and interesting character.

The reason he and the rest of the characters didn't get a lot of character development in Avengers is because all of that happened during each of the heroes' individual movies. The Avengers was basically one long, drawn out climax to the collective story of each character, and that's pretty much the reason why I prefer most of the individual movies over the Avengers itself.

i see yahtzee hasnt read dc comics...
dc comics is super spectacle
super
SUPER
yahtzee you may want to talk to moviebob, he has a crisis for you to read.
because i believe your coming from the view point of " i think batman sets the tone for the dcu" and he doesn't, he isn't that important actually they usually don't do much with him when stuff goes down its mostly "what if batman had a green lantern ring" or "batman dies" or "alternate universe batman, the owl" kinda thing, hell he is hardly batman anymore whenever his legs are aching he just calls in dick to that bat of the night thing he does real good. dc is just as crazy and crossover driven as marvel is even more so in fact because their justice luege isn't just 6 dudes and occasionally more its a whole bunch of people who do different stuff. those guys communicate, alot.

also i don't think a jl movie would work small, you have the fastest man and his fast ass family, batman, wonder woman, and superman , possibly captain marvel if they wanna get crazy, those guys wouldn't know "subtitle" if it was a super villain. plus single character driven stories, are what single movie franchises for. how are you gonna dice up so many stories into one movie let alone even more considering how huge the jl is and Warner bros. owns the rights to all of them

i agree about the resident evil thing though.

also i agree with the person above, though i also believe a lot dc of people couldn't handle marvel villains or hero's for that matter, but that's just my opinion. hulk has a family, that's a scary thought.

Great article, I like that it wasn't the inevitable "bash RE6" article that every Escapist contributor has had to put out recently. There's a little bit of that, but not nearly as bad.

Yahtzee, you have a great point that DC definitely does better by their villains than Marvel does. The only think I would point out is that X-Men has some pretty interesting villains, not the least of which being Magneto, the Malcom-X to Xavier's Martin Luther King. The X-Men story has some pretty complex characters all around, some enemies become friends and some friends become enemies. But for my money, Lex Luthor is a more compelling villain than any of them.

I think an entire movie focused on DC villains would be great, but the problem I would find with that is that villains tend not to stand on their own very well. Or they at least don't without some super hero to menace. Sure, you could make a plot where they all inevitably betray one another, but it wouldn't be as interesting without their heroic counter parts.

That's just my opinion, of course. It may be interesting to some people.

The best thing to come out of the DC films have been the animated ones.

I'd LOVE to see Superman: Birthright and/or Luthor: Man of Steel animated.

Luthor:MoS is probably one of the best 'examples' of Lex.

I think every story would benefit from Batman showing up at the end and punching someone in the stomach. Try it:

A kid came to my door and asked me if I wanted to buy some candy bars to help his school. I said sure and handed him some money. Then Batman walked up and punched him in the stomach.

While it is a lovely idea watching a Legion of Doom movie, I have very low expectations of any non-Batman movie put out by DC...

I do agree with Moviebob that a Captain Marvel (or 'Shazam') would be epic to watch.

shrekfan246:

You may or may not be disappointed by the answer.

That was 2,000 types of fantastic! That vid made me weirdly happy, thanks for that.

The DC heroes exception that proves the rule...why Doom Patrol of course.

Still, I've always secretly hoped for a Suicide Squad movie...the good '80's Suicide Squad that is, not the new debacle.

Just some random thoughts, but I wondering if the more 'boring' nature of the iconic DC hero's has more to do with being stuck with decades older origin stories. Doing some quick wiki lookups, it seems like the DC cast were all created between 1930-40, while the Marvel cast came around in the 60's. In video game terms there's enough time between the start of Superman and Spiderman to go from the Mario Bros to Commander Shepherd.

I see Yahtzee read my opinion on Lex Luthor. Yes, we definitely need a movie for him. TBH I don't even care about the other villians. Batman villians change so drastically with each adaptation, that I can barely call them by their names. I liked Bane's backstory. Not TDKR Bane, but maksed wrestler on Venom Bane. However, they will never make a movie about the villian when the audience usually doen't know of their existence without the hero. It's just like Transformers. In our niche, here on the internet, it may seem like everyone knows this stuff and it would totally sell well. Not true. Without "Superman" somewhere in the title (or common title, i.e. Man of Steel) the VAST majority won't know it takes place in the same universe. And then once they find out, they will complain why Superman wasn't in it at all/enough (pretty likely chance of that is you saw TDKR reviews).

Actually, how did that all work in Smallville? I never saw a single episode, but it sounds like the kind of thing that would have hours worth of Luthor talking to himself in order to give off more exposition.

Yahtzee Croshaw:
It's About Characters, Stupid

Raising the stakes through ludicrous plot points is a great way to kill a franchise.

Read Full Article

it can't get much bigger then the 'alien invasion' for the avengers?

lol, poor, miss-informed Yahzee.

i have three words for you

The
Infinity
Gauntlet

:3 you have absolutely no idea just how high the bar can yet be raised

gardian06:
in most mediums it's not so much what the person does it's more what we know about the character before they do it. take like the punisher movie for example and just start the movie from the point where he starts hunting down the "bad" people


or most other "vigilantly" superheros take away their back stories and what you have is no real different then the villains they fight.

I think this is a point which Yahtzee in his infinite wisdom saw not to raise (or for whatever reason just left it out) but one which is definitely relevant. I know it's not really how they did it in your example of the Punisher (apologies if that's wrong, I haven't seen it in quite some time) but another reason the writers feel the need to include some huge, universe-threatening crisis is because only that can justify the hero's actions, looked at from that critical perspective. They think to themselves "right, we want a hero, but we know that in the age of cynicism we can't get away with 'super grand awesome mr perfect' but also we'll be damned if we put in the effort to actually give our hero a proper character arc with him overcoming his own personal struggles and facing issues that he would believably have to face. So instead we'll give him a few offscreen implied civilian casualties, and then justify that by making the enemy the great universe-eating monsters of darkness".

Ok, maybe that's a little excessive; there are things like the Toby Maguire Spiderman movies (please don't hurt me, I'm just trying to make a point) where, whether or not you think they did a good job, it does seem pretty clear to me that they were making an effort to give him personal challenges to overcome, but for every case of making that effort, there's ten where they simply toss any but the most token character development out the window and replace it with 'offscreen implied civilian casualties yadda yadda yadda'.

I guess what I'm trying to say is good point, well made

Falseprophet:

Meanwhile, a PG-13 rated superhero movie can level city blocks and tear apart office towers in the middle of the working day, implying thousands of people are killed and maimed, but never really show it. Yeah, the Avengers had some dirty-looking people telling the news about it afterwards, but you didn't see anybody screaming "OH MY GOD I JUST WENT OUT TO GET COFFEE FOR THE OFFICE AND ALL MY COWORKERS WERE CRUSHED TO DEATH BY A METAL SPACE DRAGON!"

You know, I had an estimated death counter in my mind while watching Avengers for a second time. There has to be a minimum of 700 civilian deaths during the final New York battle sequence (30-50 from the one of the onscreen collapsing buildings, over 120 who got hit on the streets, countless more in the office buildings hit by the leviathans and Chitauri)

Generalizing superheroes now?

You've had your fair share of dethroning moments of suck, Yahtzee, but I never thought you'd go and piss on something so objectively kickass as Justice League.

Cid SilverWing:
Generalizing superheroes now?

You've had your fair share of dethroning moments of suck, Yahtzee, but I never thought you'd go and piss on something so objectively kickass as Justice League.

You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.

OT: Generally prefer Marvel over DC for that exact reason - the people the stories are about are more fleshed out than the side characters.

A suicide squad movie would be pretty interesting ... mind you they already screwed up Waller in that green lantern WTF

Lunar Templar:

Yahtzee Croshaw:
It's About Characters, Stupid

Raising the stakes through ludicrous plot points is a great way to kill a franchise.

Read Full Article

it can't get much bigger then the 'alien invasion' for the avengers?

lol, poor, miss-informed Yahzee.

i have three words for you

The
Infinity
Gauntlet

:3 you have absolutely no idea just how high the bar can yet be raised

Not to mention the fact that Joss Whedon has said that they won't raise the stakes in the traditional sense for Avengers 2. It's supposed to be smaller scale and more personal than the first film.

MrFalconfly:

Lunar Templar:

Yahtzee Croshaw:
It's About Characters, Stupid

Raising the stakes through ludicrous plot points is a great way to kill a franchise.

Read Full Article

it can't get much bigger then the 'alien invasion' for the avengers?

lol, poor, miss-informed Yahzee.

i have three words for you

The
Infinity
Gauntlet

:3 you have absolutely no idea just how high the bar can yet be raised

Not to mention the fact that Joss Whedon has said that they won't raise the stakes in the traditional sense for Avengers 2. It's supposed to be smaller scale and more personal than the first film.

Blast, double-ninja'd... Another word, though: Thanos.
Also, I really respect Whedon for not wanting to just use the stuff that has already worked.

Yahtzee, why do you have to give us these ridiculously nice ideas that are so unlikely to see the light of day? Why? I want that Legion of Doom series now; and unfortunately something tells me that it's just not exactly what DC are likely to do... Oh well. We'll figure something out, I guess.

Focused on the characters?

Maybe a game where Jill is recruited to a government special ops due the fact she was the only one left with super powers after RE 5. She is sent to Colombia to deal with the FARCS (or mexican Drug Lords, or anything like that). At the same time she has to deal with heavy PTSD from her time with Wesker (she dyes her hair brown, since it has never returned to normal). In the mission she comes across a new kind of drug, that would lead the users to a massive psychotic spree in a year or two after its consumption (like an intelligent crimson head). This "improved" cocaine is to be sent to rich countries as a latent terrorist attack.

Credossuck:
For example when he got stranded in earths far future, udne a red sun with only vandal savage giving him company...

Haha, that's funny, I saw that episode like 2 hours ago. But yeah, it was a good one. The Justice League animated series annoys me though, because their powers are so insanely variable. Such as Flash, one episode he moves at the speed of light (Sinistro actually says "My beams are as fast as you, the speed of light!") while in another he seems to struggle to catch up with a large van... And Superman.. He keeps getting knocked out by much weaker foes, and seems to be hurt by normal bullets and lasers. Isn't he supposed to be completely invulnerable to such things under a yellow sun? Can anyone explain to me why this is?

Anyway, I'd like to see a sort of aftermath movie, with the hero having finally defeated his nemesis somehow, and how they cope with life afterwards. Just thought about it listening to Gav's Joker's Song just now, with the line "You're the Yin to my Yang" which I thought was right, so what would he do if he actually managed his mission of cleaning up Gotham? Just my 2 cents.

He's Right DCs villains outshine their hero to the point that's not even funny, and Marvel villains are like DC hero's, stale, bland and no personality. In fact any villain that has a personality usually ends up becoming a hero in the Marvel U.

RobfromtheGulag:
have Batman show up at the very end of each one to punch them all in the stomach 'cause he's an empty-headed violent fascist.

Ah, pure comedy gold!

Having just beaten Arkham Asylum, what does Killer Croc symbolise? I wasn't even aware there was a 'Killer Croc' villain until I played the game.

It symbolizes that not all villains symbolize anything or, consequently, that someone can make a point about anything symbolizing something at one point or another. I mean, we like to have our comic book mythology deep and neat, but have we forgotten that the Batman roster includes this?


And this?
And this?
However, I agree that the DC villains are generally more interesting than the ones in Marvel, and more than its hero nemesis; although as people have said the chances of making them more interesting depends on the writer.

And, do we all agree that DC trying to out-Marvel Marvel with their Justice League movie is, in general, a bad move?

Batman, Wonder Woman, and Superman are boring? That's news to me. Then again, I'm familiar with most of the best works featuring these characters. I may be wrong, but I don't think that Yahtzee can say the same thing.

And I don't think that you can really separate the villains from the heroes. Lex Luthor is pretty boring without Superman. Perhaps the observation that the villains are more interesting comes from the fact that stories usually have to have more dramatic appearances for the villains, around whom the story needs to revolve. This doesn't necessarily make the heroes less interesting, just that the development of the hero's character is usually less dramatic and moves at a glacial pace over time, or is mostly established at the beginning.

I mean, maybe Superman is a super powered Mary Sue in some stories that have been put out over 60 years, but he's also a conflicted person, he has had to kill Kryptonians, he hates (Darkseid specifically), he has fears, he doubts himself and his moral compass at times, but despite that, he's a hero, and an unwavering one. Just because he's too strong to be threatened by bankrobbers doesn't mean that he's boring.

I think that's why stuff like Dark Knight Returns and Kingdom Come are so good; they focus and, in many ways, define the characters, despite both being set in the future.

When you read Dark Knight Returns, for example, who is a better character, Batman, or any of the villains, Joker included? I'd venture to say that most people would say Batman. I know I would.

hermes200:

And, do we all agree that DC trying to out-Marvel Marvel with their Justice League movie is, in general, a bad move?

It's probably a terrible idea. I guess it kind of depends on how the Superman movie turns out. Though I'll probably be happy as long as the plot doesn't involve Lex Luthor trying to create oceanfront property again.

You could very easily over analyze nearly any piece of fiction. Especially, when it comes to sci-fi or horror. Do you really take games so seriously that you can't appreciate them? Quit acting like it's supposed to be Shakespeare. I mean why are you even playing games if you're just going to be that cynical? When it comes to sci-fi and horror, the point of the story is never in the details.

In regards to your complaint about Superheroes. What would be the point if the villian didn't threaten the world or an entire city? How would they be "super" heroes if all they did was stop a simple mugging or something any normal cop could prevent? I mean you complain about certain kinds of fiction following a similar suit, when that suit is very well the point of said fiction.

Combine Rustler:
I understand that someone might hate Batman, but it would seem that Yahtzee's entire family was torn limb from limb by the guy. Such seething hatred is rarely seen outside of... um... the Internet.
Nevermind.

Dude, did you just now watch Yahtzee's reviews of the Arkham games? He said he LOVED Batman, like everyone else on the Internet, possibly the most beloved fictional concept more than Firefly.

Frostbite3789:

Falseprophet:
No, but the Joker's the exception to the rule. He's Batman's greatest nemesis, because Batman is all about an orderly, predictable universe where everything can be investigated and analyzed and he can have a plan for every situation. But the Joker is completely unpredictable and his motivations defy examination, so Batman can't really plan for him.

Oh...oh my god. Joker is the Assassins and Batman is the Templar. WE'VE BEEN ROOTING FOR THE WRONG SIDE ALL ALONG.

Good god, I hope not! The Assassin's are about freedom yeah, but Joker only cares about his own freedom. To kill. Batman could enforce order on everyone, but he doesn't. He believes in people's inherent goodness and willingness to do right. He does what he does so no one else suffers.

Yathzee! Don't give people like DC ideas like that!

They have the potential to take extremely awesome ideas like the Legion of Doom and completely screw it up!

C'mon, you really think they will risk 150 million on anything less than a sure thing? It'll be an Avengers clone, poorly done. As poorly done as Green Lantern was a cheap clone of Iron Man (seriously, Green lantern syncs up with Iron Man in so many ways its almost scary).

What happened to the kind of villain that would convince the hero to switch sides with a well thought out, but simple speech. Make some of the good guys the villains.

The Legion of Doom story sounds interesting. "The world is filling up with extraordinary people.", said Nick Fury, and sooner or later the ones on the other side are going to get together. Show these pseudogods just how human they are...

shrekfan246:

You may or may not be disappointed by the answer.

What...was that? I feel like that's something that would play on repeat, as some kind of pyschotropic torture propaganda film. One of those things psychotic leaders play to at dissenters, to make them obey. My eyes shifted focus, I couldn't see straight, and my vision blurred for everything except the video. It's insidiously in my head. If I were strapped to a chair, with this blaring in my eyes and ears, I don't think I am a strong enough person to defend against that. I'd be giving up the lives or secrets of the ones I hold most dear just for them to kill me and make it stop. Holy crap. You have to warn a guy about that stuff, man! I'm not lying about the eye parts, either. That actually happened.

BehattedWanderer:
The Legion of Doom story sounds interesting. "The world is filling up with extraordinary people.", said Nick Fury, and sooner or later the ones on the other side are going to get together. Show these pseudogods just how human they are...

shrekfan246:

You may or may not be disappointed by the answer.

What...was that? I feel like that's something that would play on repeat, as some kind of pyschotropic torture propaganda film. One of those things psychotic leaders play to at dissenters, to make them obey. My eyes shifted focus, I couldn't see straight, and my vision blurred for everything except the video. It's insidiously in my head. If I were strapped to a chair, with this blaring in my eyes and ears, I don't think I am a strong enough person to defend against that. I'd be giving up the lives or secrets of the ones I hold most dear just for them to kill me and make it stop. Holy crap. You have to warn a guy about that stuff, man! I'm not lying about the eye parts, either. That actually happened.

So, basically, you're saying it was this:

And there's a reason I have a gif from that music video as my avatar. :D

Her other music videos are just as wacky, too. It's pretty interesting, to tell the truth. Like I said in another thread earlier, I don't often listen to J-Pop, but when I do, it's Kyary Pamyu Pamyu. :D

shrekfan246:

BehattedWanderer:
The Legion of Doom story sounds interesting. "The world is filling up with extraordinary people.", said Nick Fury, and sooner or later the ones on the other side are going to get together. Show these pseudogods just how human they are...

shrekfan246:

You may or may not be disappointed by the answer.

What...was that? I feel like that's something that would play on repeat, as some kind of pyschotropic torture propaganda film. One of those things psychotic leaders play to at dissenters, to make them obey. My eyes shifted focus, I couldn't see straight, and my vision blurred for everything except the video. It's insidiously in my head. If I were strapped to a chair, with this blaring in my eyes and ears, I don't think I am a strong enough person to defend against that. I'd be giving up the lives or secrets of the ones I hold most dear just for them to kill me and make it stop. Holy crap. You have to warn a guy about that stuff, man! I'm not lying about the eye parts, either. That actually happened.

So, basically, you're saying it was this:

And there's a reason I have a gif from that music video as my avatar. :D

Her other music videos are just as wacky, too. It's pretty interesting, to tell the truth. Like I said in another thread earlier, I don't often listen to J-Pop, but when I do, it's Kyary Pamyu Pamyu. :D

Yes, but hers is worse, much more of an assault, rather than a suggestion. Though, admittedly, the Fashion monster one wasn't as bad. But it, candy candy, and Tsukematsukeru gave me one distinct feeling: I pity the Japanese Alice, for her Wonderland is a far stranger place than I should like to visit, and if this is what she felt when she went through hers, then I admire her bravery, for there was a young girl who would walk where I would dare not tread.

My consolation is that I don't find it all arousing, so there's a plus. That I wonder how far down this particular rabbit hole I could go, however, is another matter.

Batman: The Animated Series.

I liked batman there...

"It's About Characters, Stupid"

Objection, your honor! The old RTS game Homeworld had a great story, and it didn't have a single actual character.

If anyone here wants a limited series DC Comic where they actually DO exactly what Yahtzee is suggesting, get the 'Secret Six: Villains United' series. It starts off being set in the lead-up to Infinite Crisis, where you've got all the camp crappy 70s Batman villains (you know, the ones where all they have is some absurd gimmick, like Umbrella Man who goes around robbing banks with...um...Umbrellas, etc) who don't want to join the bad guys in their 'destroy the world' plan because they're too old for this crap / on parole and don't want to get jailed for missing their curfew checkin / sane enough to realise that they'll get annihilated in a fight between all the villains with actual superpowers vs all the heros with actual superpowers, and so they (a few get killed early, but the 6 end up being Catman - yes, the ultimate 'camp 70s batman villain - Deadshot, Chesire, Ragdoll #2, Scandal, the Fiddler and a random Parademon that's gone AWOL and doesn't know what to do now it doesn't have any orders).

Then they find out that Luthor's collection of supervillains have a policy of killing crappy 70s non-powered villains who turn down their 'invitation' to join, and start shitting themselves until they get a mysterious call from someone called 'Mockingbird' who promises he can keep them safe so long as they do some 'work' for him...

In the process they find out that they're being tracked down by the freaken superheros as well. Not just that, but this bunch of non-powered chumps find out that the 2 characters most intent on tracking them down are none other than the freaken BATMAN on one side and Deathstroke on the other (a major problem as they don't have anyone that can hurt him enough to stop him from just regenerating in a few seconds).

It's an awesome underdog series, with 'victories' like Catman finally getting his dignity back by training until he can fight Batman to a draw while the rest of the team break their captured teammates out of jail. Perhaps not quite an all-out 'villain' series, as the characters range from ones like Catman who acts semi-heroically and respects the non-powered heros like Batman and Green Arrow, but views the superheros as the equivalent of alien invaders imposing whatever 'justice' they feel like upon a helpless population (citing the Dr Light lobotomy as indicative of why he hates them), through to Deadshot who sets the team's rule of 'doesn't matter whether the job is for good or evil - as long as we get paid'.

Again, great idea for a film, particularly because they're limited edition stories so you can kill characters off and build proper character arcs without getting stuck with the 'endless sequels' problem. Would never get made though.

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