Jimquisition: Dumbing Down for the Filthy Casuals

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aegix drakan:

Rooster Cogburn:
[quote="girzwald" post="6.395777.16097808"]They are able to make the game the way it is precisely because they only have the one mode to consider. Go ahead, tell me that adding a fully featured flight sim mode to Halo 5 won't drain resources and distract from the design focus.

That's a false equivalency and you know it.

Tweaking a few things here and there in an optional mode that's there to allow people who are not skilled enough to beat Normal to enjoy the game is NOT the same as adding a totally different gameplay time with new models, controls, graphics and engine to a game that's of a different genre.

You simply don't appreciate the extent to which difficulty drives the mechanics, experience and design focus of Dark Souls. EDIT: I almost said "wait, I should explain why that is. But do I need to, really? We're talking about Dark Souls. Dark Souls.

It is WAY closer to my example then you are making it out to be.

anthony87:

Rooster Cogburn:

anthony87:
That was actually done with Devil May Cry 3. Basically our "Normal" difficulty mode was the Japanese "Hard" mode, our "Hard" was their "Dante Must Die" mode etc. The release of Devil May Cry 3: Special Edition fixed all that and even made it so that if you die you had the option of ressurecting and not starting the level over again provided you had the right item.

Surprisingly the world didn't burn with the existence of this easier version of a balls hard game.

There is no more clear way to demonstrate how badly you misunderstand this topic and Dark Souls generally then to point to the fact that you think adding easy mode to Dark Souls is merely adding an "easier version of a balls hard game."

Oh look, more of this "You don't get it/understand" nonsense.....

It has been explained and explained and explained. You don't engage it. The fuck am I supposed to do at that point?

Church185:

girzwald:

Church185:

I'll answer your question simply. It's taken time away from making Dark Souls II, for a group of people that may not even care enough to buy the game to play said easy mode.

Those aren't answers to my questions. You in fact answered and addressed zero of them. While again spewing more false premises.

You continue to speak like making an easy mode would take away so much resources and so much time that not only will it do damage to dark souls 2, that it will be irreparable damage to the game and it will now be horrible because they took the eternity it would take to make a few tweaks. And you know, if they added in an easy mode, more people might buy the game meaning......OMG........more resources for dark souls 2, to make it better!

And of course its a risk that people might not buy it. Thats called life. And the developers were at least looking at the option so they at least thought in theory it would be worth it. But before the idea could really even get off the ground, the idea was shot down by the frothing nerd rage of teh hardcorez. And if anything is going to make people not want to buy dark souls, its the dark souls community. I've seen more polite and less egotistical people in a game of league of legends.

The Dark Souls community was very helpful to me when I first started and didn't know proper build planning from my elbow. Forums full of helpful people giving me hints, tips, and strategies for making my life in that bleak place better. Even for the people who don't want to take the time to seek out that portion of the community I think that From Software made a brilliant decision to reward players for helping out their fellow player and promoting "Jolly Cooperation". If anything, the Dark Souls community is the only reason I didn't walk away the first time I was frustrated with the game because I felt that it was unfair.

Wait... You asked a question about a game and you weren't flamed for it?

What madness have I stumbled into?

aegix drakan:

That's a false equivalency and you know it.

Tweaking a few things here and there in an optional mode that's there to allow people who are not skilled enough to beat Normal to enjoy the game is NOT the same as adding a totally different gameplay time with new models, controls, graphics and engine to a game that's of a different genre.

The way Dark Souls was designed does not allow for an easy modal difficulty. I described this here, but you must have missed that;

http://www.escapistmagazine.com/forums/read/6.395777-Jimquisition-Dumbing-Down-for-the-Filthy-Casuals?page=12#16097670

girzwald:

BioRex:

So should we make a easier version of chess because I'm really bad at it? Should those those sim games add platforming because I don't find its main mechanic engaging? Should Starcraft auto-create my units since I don't know what I should build when? Should soccer fields be shorter since I can't run worth a damn? Should tetris include markers telling you where to put the blocks because my planning ahead skills suck? Should large novels come with a cliff-notes version because I lack patience? I could do this all day, why is it so absurd that if one wants to take part and enjoy something they learn the basic skills needed to understand that thing? It would be rather rude of me to go to some people playing magic and demand we play by my house rules just because I owned a deck.

I will completely blow your post away with two words.

Why not?

To all of it. If someone wants to play that way and can find others that want to play that way, then they should be able to. And yes, you WOULD be rather rude to go to someone people playing magic and demanded that THEY play YOUR way. Except people who say an easy mode should be available for dark souls aren't saying you should play THEIR way, you are saying they have to play YOUR way.

Why not leave chess as it is and play something else?

BioRex:

girzwald:

JustanotherGamer:

Dark souls is easy if you LEARN how to play it......

You =/= everyone else.

Whats easy for you =/= easy for everyone else.

So should we make a easier version of chess because I'm really bad at it? Should those those sim games add platforming because I don't find its main mechanic engaging? Should Starcraft auto-create my units since I don't know what I should build when? Should soccer fields be shorter since I can't run worth a damn? Should tetris include markers telling you where to put the blocks because my planning ahead skills suck? Should large novels come with a cliff-notes version because I lack patience? I could do this all day, why is it so absurd that if one wants to take part and enjoy something they learn the basic skills needed to understand that thing? It would be rather rude of me to go to some people playing magic and demand we play by my house rules just because I owned a deck.

You already play a dumber version of chess. Unless you're playing against grandmasters, you're playing an easier version of the game. By your own logic, you have no right to play chess, as your "casual gaming" cheapens and invalidates the true chess played by masters. Logic which is faulty. Someone enjoying an easier version of something does not cheapen your own enjoyment.

Soccer fields are made shorter for children. This does not invalidate professional soccer players. Large novels are made with cliffnotes. People who want the challenge and the full experience read the book instead. And people play Magic with stupid casual house rules. Tournament players could care less though, as those houserules have no effect on them.

Other games do just fine with a difficulty setting, and still maintain the challenge. Look at Mount and Blade. Heck, most people even rate the game to be impossible without turning down the difficulty.

Answer me this. How does another person playing an easier version of a game invalidate your own enjoyment? Do you enjoy the game because its hard, or because you can brag online about how you beat that super-hard game? Personally, I could care less how many difficulty settings a game has. I enjoy Dark Souls at its current difficulty, and I certainly wouldn't choose an easy mode, as I feel that I lose the purpose of the game. But for me, the difficulty is part of the fun. For another person, it may not be. For another person, if they want it easier, I could frankly care less.

girzwald:

BioRex:

So should we make a easier version of chess because I'm really bad at it? Should those those sim games add platforming because I don't find its main mechanic engaging? Should Starcraft auto-create my units since I don't know what I should build when? Should soccer fields be shorter since I can't run worth a damn? Should tetris include markers telling you where to put the blocks because my planning ahead skills suck? Should large novels come with a cliff-notes version because I lack patience? I could do this all day, why is it so absurd that if one wants to take part and enjoy something they learn the basic skills needed to understand that thing? It would be rather rude of me to go to some people playing magic and demand we play by my house rules just because I owned a deck.

I will completely blow your post away with two words.

Why not?

To all of it. If someone wants to play that way and can find others that want to play that way, then they should be able to. And yes, you WOULD be rather rude to go to someone people playing magic and demanded that THEY play YOUR way. Except people who say an easy mode should be available for dark souls aren't saying you should play THEIR way, you are saying they have to play YOUR way.

Ok let me blow away your point with one word.
Why?
I mean really why? Is it wrong that I like to see people better themselves and triumph over something? Is it wrong to have some bars of difficulty that don't simple change to accommodate people? Why should we change to accommodate people? No really why?

girzwald:
Except people who say an easy mode should be available for dark souls aren't saying you should play THEIR way, you are saying they have to play YOUR way.

If you want to play Halo, you have to play an FPS. It totally blows my fucking mind how people are twisting and warping something like that into a perceived imposition.

JustanotherGamer:

girzwald:

BioRex:

So should we make a easier version of chess because I'm really bad at it? Should those those sim games add platforming because I don't find its main mechanic engaging? Should Starcraft auto-create my units since I don't know what I should build when? Should soccer fields be shorter since I can't run worth a damn? Should tetris include markers telling you where to put the blocks because my planning ahead skills suck? Should large novels come with a cliff-notes version because I lack patience? I could do this all day, why is it so absurd that if one wants to take part and enjoy something they learn the basic skills needed to understand that thing? It would be rather rude of me to go to some people playing magic and demand we play by my house rules just because I owned a deck.

I will completely blow your post away with two words.

Why not?

To all of it. If someone wants to play that way and can find others that want to play that way, then they should be able to. And yes, you WOULD be rather rude to go to someone people playing magic and demanded that THEY play YOUR way. Except people who say an easy mode should be available for dark souls aren't saying you should play THEIR way, you are saying they have to play YOUR way.

Why not leave chess as it is and play something else?

I am starting to think that they feel like they would be left out. That they can't handle having that one game they can't play.

Rooster Cogburn:

It seems overwhelmingly true that people assume we don't want there to be easy mode to exclude the casuals. That is close-minded because it is preventing them from truly listening when we try to inform them of other possibilities.

Once again, as an outsider, what possibilities are these? To me it seems that the standard approach presented by those who don't want an easy mode to exist in general is:

summon something called a 'sunbro' which apparently makes the game a cake walk
read guides online
use forums online
skip large sections of the game

I don't understand why cheating yourself out of gameplay is considered a viable alternative to having an easy mode, and I don't understand why this easy mode couldn't simply involve copious tooltips, hints, more obvious checkpoints/traps/platforming rather than reduced health or damage without damaging your immersion of the game. From what I've read in this thread it seems near-paramount that the player use not only in-game options but out of game options to make the game manageable in terms of difficulty, so why not simply take those out of game options and add them to an easy mode, and make the in game options more obvious?

/eyeroll Oh boy, more political commentary. Because that is totally what readers come to The Escapist for.

RaikuFA:

Church185:
The Dark Souls community was very helpful to me when I first started and didn't know proper build planning from my elbow. Forums full of helpful people giving me hints, tips, and strategies for making my life in that bleak place better. Even for the people who don't want to take the time to seek out that portion of the community I think that From Software made a brilliant decision to reward players for helping out their fellow player and promoting "Jolly Cooperation". If anything, the Dark Souls community is the only reason I didn't walk away the first time I was frustrated with the game because I felt that it was unfair.

Wait... You asked a question about a game and you weren't flamed for it?

What madness have I stumbled into?

The most maligned and misunderstood community in the history of video games.

I think this thread is over and done with folks considering we have a nice little select few people in this thread who shoot down any argument for an easy mode because they feel so damn threatened it's not even funny.

Seriously give these guy's rights to publish their book of arguments and let them have a radio show so they can preach more of how ignorant we apparently are and how underserving we are to have an optional mode in place.

That and we now know from the select few that it would take forever to create an optional mode because this game is apparently so fucking unique that we should all give the fuck up on everything else and praise it while shitting on those that don't and those that would like an easy mode.

For the select view you know who you are and I don't give two shits about how adding an easy mode will destroy your game because quite frankly it does come off as elitist no matter what argument you pull out of your ass it will still come off as one because of pulling the "you just don't understand card" followed by "well it's just not the game for you", seriously just learn to accept that other people want an optional mode of difficulty rather than feeling super threatened and desiring to shoot down any argument they have because in the end it does make you look fucking childish.

If the hard mode is it's main selling point why don't you just jog on and go play some hardcore mode tetris to take your fanboy rage off of things because there should be more to a game other than "balls hard mode".

if you desire to quote me in an attempt to call my childish,stupid,ignorant you'll get fucking nowhere I will tell you this right now because it's going to be fruitless and will accomplish nothing.

For those that don't want an "easy" mode placed into the game why not get off your whiny little asses and go straight to the studio and tell them and make sure your thoughts are expressed in such a way that it does happen and then come back and brag about how you told them to do something you wanted them to do against other peoples wishes.

They are able to make the game the way it is precisely because they only have the one mode to consider. Go ahead, tell me that adding a fully featured flight sim mode to Halo 5 won't drain resources and distract from the design focus.

Thats not even close to being the same thing. And the fact that you have to go so far out on a limb in an attempt to make a point is very telling.

No they weren't. Stop spreading misinformation.

http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2012-09-04-dark-souls-director-considering-adding-optional-easy-mode

You are the one spreading misinformation.

Tell me again how it's us who are the offensive, insulting, elitist douche bags who have to boss everyone around.

Ok. You are. I mean, someone says. "there should be an easy mode". And we get "stop dumbing down games" "its easy, you just suck". are plenty more gems.

I'd bet hard money you were a complete ass to Dark Souls fans and now you're blaming them for not getting off on the wrong foot. It's confirmation bias. You're a dick to us and then you act like we're the ones who are insulting and unreasonable even though it's overwhelmingly the opposite.

Your prejudice against us is blinding you to the realities of the situation.

Ya, I was a complete jerk to people I didn't even know and never met before. No, sorry. Dark Souls fans have the reputation to be complete douche bags and its well earned IMO. Everyone who doesn't think dark souls is easy is bad and should feel bad is pretty much the attitude.

That's all it is Korten they wana be able to say i like it too. I have no idea why they fail to understand that the difficulty is what makes the game worth playing with out it it would be utter tripe mediocre rpg with no story or reward. But then they could get 1000 gamer score so by todays gamers standards that would be awesome.

Rooster Cogburn:

girzwald:
Except people who say an easy mode should be available for dark souls aren't saying you should play THEIR way, you are saying they have to play YOUR way.

If you want to play Halo, you have to play an FPS. It totally blows my fucking mind how people are twisting and warping something like that into a perceived imposition.

Super hard action adventure role playing game is not a genre. Sorry.

Korten12:

I am starting to think that they feel like they would be left out. That they can't handle having that one game they can't play.

You guys cant seem to handle not having a game only you can play

Prosis:

BioRex:

girzwald:

You =/= everyone else.

Whats easy for you =/= easy for everyone else.

So should we make a easier version of chess because I'm really bad at it? Should those those sim games add platforming because I don't find its main mechanic engaging? Should Starcraft auto-create my units since I don't know what I should build when? Should soccer fields be shorter since I can't run worth a damn? Should tetris include markers telling you where to put the blocks because my planning ahead skills suck? Should large novels come with a cliff-notes version because I lack patience? I could do this all day, why is it so absurd that if one wants to take part and enjoy something they learn the basic skills needed to understand that thing? It would be rather rude of me to go to some people playing magic and demand we play by my house rules just because I owned a deck.

You already play a dumber version of chess. Unless you're playing against grandmasters, you're playing an easier version of the game. By your own logic, you have no right to play chess, as your "casual gaming" cheapens and invalidates the true chess played by masters. Logic which is faulty. Someone enjoying an easier version of something does not cheapen your own enjoyment.

Soccer fields are made shorter for children. This does not invalidate professional soccer players. Large novels are made with cliffnotes. People who want the challenge and the full experience read the book instead. And people play Magic with stupid casual house rules. Tournament players could care less though, as those houserules have no effect on them.

Other games do just fine with a difficulty setting, and still maintain the challenge. Look at Mount and Blade. Heck, most people even rate the game to be impossible without turning down the difficulty.

Answer me this. How does another person playing an easier version of a game invalidate your own enjoyment? Do you enjoy the game because its hard, or because you can brag online about how you beat that super-hard game? Personally, I could care less how many difficulty settings a game has. I enjoy Dark Souls at its current difficulty, and I certainly wouldn't choose an easy mode, as I feel that I lose the purpose of the game. But for me, the difficulty is part of the fun. For another person, it may not be. For another person, if they want it easier, I could frankly care less.

Well duh my point was a bit silly, however the main point I was making is that just because I have trouble with something does not mean the creator of that thing has to accomodate to me. The chess example would be making it less diverse, or checkers lol. The soccer example still holds because I am an adult so I should be expected to play by adult rules and standards.
It's not about invalidating my enjoyment, I enjoy the games difficulty fine, and its not about rubbing in peoples faces I just like the challenge. My issue is that if one made it easier then that person will not have the sense of accomplishment that comes from beating a tough challenge, which was the point of these games. Also as stated it would take time and money away from the next game and frankly not work without a large overhaul.

girzwald:

http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2012-09-04-dark-souls-director-considering-adding-optional-easy-mode

You are the one spreading misinformation.

That was a mistranslation. You are still the one spreading misinformation. This is the real quote.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/erikkain/2012/09/06/dark-souls-developer-says-easy-mode-comments-were-a-translation-error/

'This fact is really sad to me and I am thinking about how to make everyone complete the game while maintaining the current difficulty and carefully send all gamers the messages behind it.'

JustanotherGamer:
That's all it is Korten they wana be able to say i like it too. I have no idea why they fail to understand that the difficulty is what makes the game worth playing with out it it would be utter tripe mediocre rpg with no story or reward. But then they could get 1000 gamer score so by todays gamers standards that would be awesome.

This is what sterling meant when he said "And frankly, it's pretty insulting to Dark Souls if you think ALL it has to offer the world is difficulty."

what part of the comunity did you interact with because a spent ages helping people out on the wiki chat as did everyone there. As long as the question wasn't what's the best weapon?

Shadow-Phoenix:
I think this thread is over and done with folks considering we have a nice little select few people in this thread who shoot down any argument for an easy mode because they feel so damn threatened it's not even funny.

Seriously give these guy's rights to publish their book of arguments and let them have a radio show so they can preach more of how ignorant we apparently are and how underserving we are to have an optional mode in place.

That and we now know from the select few that it would take forever to create an optional mode because this game is apparently so fucking unique that we should all give the fuck up on everything else and praise it while shitting on those that don't and those that would like an easy mode.

For the select view you know who you are and I don't give two shits about how adding an easy mode will destroy your game because quite frankly it does come off as elitist no matter what argument you pull out of your ass it will still come off as one because of pulling the "you just don't understand card" followed by "well it's just not the game for you", seriously just learn to accept that other people want an optional mode of difficulty rather than feeling super threatened and desiring to shoot down any argument they have because in the end it does make you look fucking childish.

If the hard mode is it's main selling point why don't you just jog on and go play some hardcore mode tetris to take your fanboy rage off of things because there should be more to a game other than "balls hard mode".

if you desire to quote me in an attempt to call my childish,stupid,ignorant you'll get fucking nowhere I will tell you this right now because it's going to be fruitless and will accomplish nothing.

For those that don't want an "easy" mode placed into the game why not get off your whiny little asses and go straight to the studio and tell them and make sure your thoughts are expressed in such a way that it does happen and then come back and brag about how you told them to do something you wanted them to do against other peoples wishes.

actaully i like that a few of them, call this game crap and that they only play it because its hard

Shadow-Phoenix:

If the hard mode is it's main selling point why don't you just jog on and go play some hardcore mode tetris to take your fanboy rage off of things because there should be more to a game other than "balls hard mode".

Edit, derp wrong button.
That same argument could be used on the other side. Go play some easy mode "insert game of your choice" instead of playing dark souls.

VyceVictus:

JustanotherGamer:
That's all it is Korten they wana be able to say i like it too. I have no idea why they fail to understand that the difficulty is what makes the game worth playing with out it it would be utter tripe mediocre rpg with no story or reward. But then they could get 1000 gamer score so by todays gamers standards that would be awesome.

This is what sterling meant when he said "And frankly, it's pretty insulting to Dark Souls if you think ALL it has to offer the world is difficulty."

yea it has the feeling of achievement when you batter a boss or when you finally upgrade that +15 weapon, the adrenaline rush when you invade and batter a guy and his two buddies. This game on easy would lack everything that makes it awesome. Just like me asking snoop dog to start singing ballads because i don't like rap......

sonofliber:

actaully i like that a few of them, call this game crap and that they only play it because its hard

It's more the case that the narrative structure lends itself to difficulty. I mean you are an undead little guy/girl in a land full of danger and monsters, it would be odd if you didn't die.

BioRex:

Well duh my point was a bit silly, however the main point I was making is that just because I have trouble with something does not mean the creator of that thing has to accomodate to me. The chess example would be making it less diverse, or checkers lol. The soccer example still holds because I am an adult so I should be expected to play by adult rules and standards.
It's not about invalidating my enjoyment, I enjoy the games difficulty fine, and its not about rubbing in peoples faces I just like the challenge. My issue is that if one made it easier then that person will not have the sense of accomplishment that comes from beating a tough challenge, which was the point of these games. Also as stated it would take time and money away from the next game and frankly not work without a large overhaul.

Not really. Do you play soccer on a professional length field, against soccer pros? If not, then you are not a true soccer player. You shouldn't be allowed to play soccer, as you won't get the feeling of accomplishment that a world soccer champion gets with the challenge of a professional game. Or rather, you shouldn't be able to finish a game of soccer if you can't compete at the international level.

It wouldn't take time or money away from production either. A mere number adjustment would make the game easier. 75% health on enemies and 75% damage from enemies. It's quick, its cheap, its not a true "easy mode", but it makes the game a bit easier for those who want it easier. Or even go down to 50%. Sure, there'd still be people who couldn't beat the game. But it'd be a bit easier for those who aren't quite up to the Dark Souls challenge.

Would they enjoy it more if they actually beat the game on its original difficulty? Yeah, probably. Would you enjoy soccer more if you beat a professional team? Yeah, probably. But some people just want to kick the ball around. And some people just want to play a video game for the grim setting and dark story.

JustanotherGamer:

VyceVictus:

JustanotherGamer:
That's all it is Korten they wana be able to say i like it too. I have no idea why they fail to understand that the difficulty is what makes the game worth playing with out it it would be utter tripe mediocre rpg with no story or reward. But then they could get 1000 gamer score so by todays gamers standards that would be awesome.

This is what sterling meant when he said "And frankly, it's pretty insulting to Dark Souls if you think ALL it has to offer the world is difficulty."

yea it has the feeling of achievement when you batter a boss or when you finally upgrade that +15 weapon, the adrenaline rush when you invade and batter a guy and his two buddies. This game on easy would lack everything that makes it awesome. Just like me asking snoop dog to start singing ballads because i don't like rap......

Lush worlds, mysterious story, atmosphere, great combat, impressive massive bosses.
The game has a lot more to offer than just obstacles to get your hardcore gamer junkie rocks off.

where is the atmosphere with no fear in dark souls? the combat would be boring if you only need to sneeze on the mobs to kill them and they have to whale on you for ages to kill you.
I can't explain how deep this game is it's been years since i have enjoyed beating a game like i did DS. And yes i truly beat it Ng+8 done no cheats sl 220 i have played over 500 hours it is to me a very rare gem in a sea of shit. Those of you asking for an easy mode to me don't understand or appreciate what the developers have made. To those who bought it and gave up i say try once more to crack it feel that rush wash over you and try to understand you can't enjoy everything in life even if you can buy it i like art do i ask every painting be made to my likes?

Prosis:

BioRex:

Well duh my point was a bit silly, however the main point I was making is that just because I have trouble with something does not mean the creator of that thing has to accomodate to me. The chess example would be making it less diverse, or checkers lol. The soccer example still holds because I am an adult so I should be expected to play by adult rules and standards.
It's not about invalidating my enjoyment, I enjoy the games difficulty fine, and its not about rubbing in peoples faces I just like the challenge. My issue is that if one made it easier then that person will not have the sense of accomplishment that comes from beating a tough challenge, which was the point of these games. Also as stated it would take time and money away from the next game and frankly not work without a large overhaul.

Not really. Do you play soccer on a professional length field, against soccer pros? If not, then you are not a true soccer player. You shouldn't be allowed to play soccer, as you won't get the feeling of accomplishment that a world soccer champion gets with the challenge of a professional game.

It wouldn't take time or money away from production either. A mere number adjustment would make the game easier. 75% health on enemies and 75% damage from enemies. It's quick, its cheap, its not a true "easy mode", but it makes the game a bit easier for those who want it easier. Or even go down to 50%. Sure, there'd still be people who couldn't beat the game. But it'd be a bit easier for those who aren't quite up to the Dark Souls challenge.

Would they enjoy it more if they actually beat the game on its original difficulty? Yeah, probably. Would you enjoy soccer more if you beat a professional team? Yeah, probably. But some people just want to kick the ball around. And some people just want to play a video game for the grim setting and dark story.

They could play darksiders or one of the many dark grim games thats gets made.
If we continue the soccer analogy this is someone who has access to a free field and a pro field. They can play in a relaxed fashion at the free field and if they go to the pro field they can play but its a lot harder.
However somebody decides to go the pro field and expects the rules be accommodated to him/her, when told that they can just go to the free field/learn to play better that person calls the pro players elitist.

VyceVictus:
[quote="JustanotherGamer" post="6.395777.16098271"]
Lush worlds, mysterious story, atmosphere, great combat, impressive massive bosses.
The game has a lot more to offer than just obstacles to get your hardcore gamer junkie rocks off.

Without the difficulty, which requires players to be observant of their surroundings and put serious consideration and understanding of a variety of play styles, no one is going to notice any of that.

BioRex:

Shadow-Phoenix:

If the hard mode is it's main selling point why don't you just jog on and go play some hardcore mode tetris to take your fanboy rage off of things because there should be more to a game other than "balls hard mode".

Edit, derp wrong button.
That same argument could be used on the other side. Go play some easy mode "insert game of your choice" instead of playing dark souls.

But you see you've just displayed exactly what my room mate loves to do to no end in a debate: he loves to neutralise it to a point where nothing is resolved and he gets to carry on being an asshat so while it can go both ways some of us want an easy mode and you can carry on with your hard mode rather than not letting us who want an easy mode a chance at all.

EvilRoy:

Rooster Cogburn:

It seems overwhelmingly true that people assume we don't want there to be easy mode to exclude the casuals. That is close-minded because it is preventing them from truly listening when we try to inform them of other possibilities.

Once again, as an outsider, what possibilities are these? To me it seems that the standard approach presented by those who don't want an easy mode to exist in general is:

summon something called a 'sunbro' which apparently makes the game a cake walk
read guides online
use forums online
skip large sections of the game

I don't understand why cheating yourself out of gameplay is considered a viable alternative to having an easy mode, and I don't understand why this easy mode couldn't simply involve copious tooltips, hints, more obvious checkpoints/traps/platforming rather than reduced health or damage without damaging your immersion of the game. From what I've read in this thread it seems near-paramount that the player use not only in-game options but out of game options to make the game manageable in terms of difficulty, so why not simply take those out of game options and add them to an easy mode, and make the in game options more obvious?

It would take a while to explain it completely, and I don't have time for another rant right now lol. If you want to know more, send me a PM and I'll reply later. But let me tell you a secret that Dark Souls experts are sworn to keep by Hidetaka Miyazaki himself after they speed run New Game +++++:

Did I just blow your mind? lol. The first time you try each encounter, you say "This is impossible. No one can beat this." But you can. There is a way. It's not that hard at all! There is a trick, and usually it's a combination of things to learn, that will make the encounter easier. And the fun is in going from "This is impossible. No one can beat this" to "I... AM... GOD!!!" The difficulty of Dark Souls is an essential tool. But the main point, and we should always remember it, is to instill a sense of accomplishment. Don't think of the tools available to the community as "cheating yourself". They are features! You see, it's all about LEARNING.

Summoning Sunbros is part of how you make the game easier for yourself. Same with online guides, asking the community, and finding shortcuts. Your level of participation in these things is very much up to you. The idea of Sunbros is to learn by summoning someone to show you how to succeed. But they made the game too easy for me, and I wanted a greater challenge. So I didn't use them much.

The game is designed with the intention that you will use forums and guides based on your preferences. Most players simply need the benefit of the community's experience just to understand the story, unless they put an ass-ton of time in the game. Then they added innovative Coop features, a coop covenant (Sunbros lol), and a message system to provide hints for other players in-game. You can see the ghosts of other players as they die, so you can learn from their failure. Remember, this is a game that most players will spend most of their time in alone- but is obviously intended to be played online! We all have to help each other get through. That's the fun! Be sure to PM me if you ever get the game. You need the community to succeed! And people want to add an easy mode to that? What the actual fuck?

The game is hard. Brutal, even. Unforgiving. But there is a way. And we will find it through Jolly Cooperation. We will not be defeated. Together we are strong!

And yet... so... isolated. And lest ye forget, every rose has it's thorn...

image

Shadow-Phoenix:
But you see you've just displayed exactly what my room mate loves to do to no end in a debate: he loves to neutralise it to a point where nothing is resolved and he gets to carry on being an asshat so while it can go both ways some of us want an easy mode and you can carry on with your hard mode rather than not letting us who want an easy mode a chance at all.

Everyone talking about what they prefer regarding games is being selfish. This includes all the people arguing against an easy mode in Dark Souls including me, and those arguing for one. It's all about what we want. That argument goes both ways.

ENB: Some people enjoy games like Dark Souls because other people can't hack it. Whether they should or shouldn't, or whether it's rational or not I don't know but I do know that it's not likely to change any time soon. People are competitive, and often adversarial. And Dark Souls in some ways reflects this really well with the invasion system but I digress. The point I'm trying to make is you can tell people "You shouldn't care. You shouldn't care. You shouldn't care." but other people obviously do care. It's really something when I see the selfish card being played like "Oh you're just being selfish because you don't want this added. You shouldn't care." The other person does care, so they can accuse you of being selfish to. The street goes both ways.

Shadow-Phoenix:

BioRex:

Shadow-Phoenix:

If the hard mode is it's main selling point why don't you just jog on and go play some hardcore mode tetris to take your fanboy rage off of things because there should be more to a game other than "balls hard mode".

Edit, derp wrong button.
That same argument could be used on the other side. Go play some easy mode "insert game of your choice" instead of playing dark souls.

But you see you've just displayed exactly what my room mate loves to do to no end in a debate: he loves to neutralise it to a point where nothing is resolved and he gets to carry on being an asshat so while it can go both ways some of us want an easy mode and you can carry on with your hard mode rather than not letting us who want an easy mode a chance at all.

It's certainly not my intent to give you no chance, however it is a fair point to bring up since so few games of recent years give people challenge like dark souls, hell after a while you want the game to be harder.
Hell I would provide some tips on how to play without taking much away from your experience if asked.
My main point isn't that this game is hard and there is nothing else, many seem to think that is what DK fans mean when we say the difficulty is so important. Its that the difficulty is the glue that binds the aspects of the game together.

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