Jimquisition: Dumbing Down for the Filthy Casuals

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VyceVictus:

Korten12:

I am starting to think that they feel like they would be left out. That they can't handle having that one game they can't play.

You guys cant seem to handle not having a game only you can play

Actually that's the problem: nothing is stopping anyone from playing the game. I mean, do the people wantig easy mode have some cripling infirmity preventing them from doing better, or is it that they've come to expect easy victory from other games that have minimized or elimiated the cost of losing? Lose in Bioshock, no problem, the boss' health wont even regenerate. Lose in borderlands, no sweat, just a cash donation you can probably afford. Keep losing and we'll drop the difficulty or toss you the "easy win" item. Heck, we'll make whole Lego games where you'll never die.

No one is stopping anyone from playing, but some of us don't think we should be garunteed a win if we play, and if someone can't play if they aren't always winning they have issues to deal with. The way I see it, if a blind man can beat Occarina of Time, then no one not missing an arm has the right to compalin about a game's difficulty curve.

Mortrialus:

VyceVictus:
[quote="JustanotherGamer" post="6.395777.16098271"]
Lush worlds, mysterious story, atmosphere, great combat, impressive massive bosses.
The game has a lot more to offer than just obstacles to get your hardcore gamer junkie rocks off.

Without the difficulty, which requires players to be observant of their surroundings and put serious consideration and understanding of a variety of play styles, no one is going to notice any of that.

Horseshit. All those elements are obvious in the first 15 minutes of the game. You dont have to be an elite super hardcore guy to have (or notice the designers had) some attention to detail.

BioRex:

They could play darksiders or one of the many dark grim games thats gets made.
If we continue the soccer analogy this is someone who has access to a free field and a pro field. They can play in a relaxed fashion at the free field and if they go to the pro field they can play but its a lot harder.
However somebody decides to go the pro field and expects the rules be accommodated to him/her, when told that they can just go to the free field/learn to play better that person calls the pro players elitist.

I don't think that analogy holds up. The game, soccer, is relatively the same whether its on the free field or the professional field. The difficulty, competitiveness, and strategy increases dramatically on the pro field, but they're both playing soccer, defined by the same rules.

A separate video game is a different game entirely. It would be like having the options of playing pro soccer, and if you couldn't do that, you have to play basketball. In particular, Darksiders is not really a "dark" game. It's artstyle is cartoony, and gameplay focuses on puzzles and platforming rather than on RPG mechanics.

I think an easy mode would be like the free field, and the normal mode would be like professional field. The pros who want the challenge can play normal mode, and the casuals can play the easy mode.

Now, I don't think the developers absolutely "have to" cater to casual players. There's nothing wrong with a game lacking an easier mode. And if they aren't up to the challenge, they can play something else. But when the developers have expressed an interest in creating an easy mode, I don't think there's a downside to adding one. That is, players are not entitled to an easy mode, but I don't think there's anything wrong with one being available.

Redd the Sock:

VyceVictus:

Korten12:

I am starting to think that they feel like they would be left out. That they can't handle having that one game they can't play.

You guys cant seem to handle not having a game only you can play

Actually that's the problem: nothing is stopping anyone from playing the game. I mean, do the people wantig easy mode have some cripling infirmity preventing them from doing better, or is it that they've come to expect easy victory from other games that have minimized or elimiated the cost of losing? Lose in Bioshock, no problem, the boss' health wont even regenerate. Lose in borderlands, no sweat, just a cash donation you can probably afford. Keep losing and we'll drop the difficulty or toss you the "easy win" item. Heck, we'll make whole Lego games where you'll never die.

No one is stopping anyone from playing, but some of us don't think we should be garunteed a win if we play, and if someone can't play if they aren't always winning they have issues to deal with. The way I see it, if a blind man can beat Occarina of Time, then no one not missing an arm has the right to compalin about a game's difficulty curve.

With years of work and help from friends. Lots of people aint got that kind of time, even with both hands. So should no game be criticized for being unbalanced or pointing out its flaws? Thats what this site is all about.

BioRex:

They could play darksiders or one of the many dark grim games thats gets made.
If we continue the soccer analogy this is someone who has access to a free field and a pro field. They can play in a relaxed fashion at the free field and if they go to the pro field they can play but its a lot harder.
However somebody decides to go the pro field and expects the rules be accommodated to him/her, when told that they can just go to the free field/learn to play better that person calls the pro players elitist.

Except then its not dark souls. Its darksiders.

And your analogy still doesn't work because. Why does it matter how someone else plays on the field if it doesn't affect THEIR game. Like if the pros only played on the weekends and other non pros wanted to use it on the weekdays.... your argument is akin to....

The pros : You're ruining our game!
Others : How? You aren't even playing.
The pros : You aren't playing the way we play, you're ruining our game!
Others : You guys only play on the weekends, we play by more lax rules because we aren't as good as you. We aren't affecting your game at all.
The pros : By your mere existence and not playing by our rules, you are cheapening and ruining our game!

VyceVictus:

Horseshit. All those elements are obvious in the first 15 minutes of the game. You dont have to be an elite super hardcore guy to have (or notice the designers had) some attention to detail.

Have you ever heard of First Order Optimal Strategies? They were actually discussed in the latest episode of Extra Credits.

If you provide an easy mode where recklessly rushing and attacking everything is a viable strategy for completing Dark Souls, almost no one is going to notice the amount of depth to the weapons systems, the great variety of weapons all with varied movements, the spells both utility and offensive, all the possible armor options. It's just something that happens in games. If players are giving a single strategy that always works, they don't bother to learn anything else. The depth to the combat system will be lost to them.

If you never have to worry about death and don't have to take your time and move cautiously in a zone most people are going to blaze through every area in the game in about 10-15 minutes. All those lush worlds and mysterious story and atmosphere might as well not even be there.

Prosis:

BioRex:

They could play darksiders or one of the many dark grim games thats gets made.
If we continue the soccer analogy this is someone who has access to a free field and a pro field. They can play in a relaxed fashion at the free field and if they go to the pro field they can play but its a lot harder.
However somebody decides to go the pro field and expects the rules be accommodated to him/her, when told that they can just go to the free field/learn to play better that person calls the pro players elitist.

I don't think that analogy holds up. The game, soccer, is relatively the same whether its on the free field or the professional field. The difficulty, competitiveness, and strategy increases dramatically on the pro field, but they're both playing soccer, defined by the same rules.

A separate video game is a different game entirely. It would be like having the options of playing pro soccer, and if you couldn't do that, you have to play basketball. In particular, Darksiders is not really a "dark" game. It's artstyle is cartoony, and gameplay focuses on puzzles and platforming rather than on RPG mechanics.

I think an easy mode would be like the free field, and the normal mode would be like professional field. The pros who want the challenge can play normal mode, and the casuals can play the easy mode.

Now, I don't think the developers absolutely "have to" cater to casual players. There's nothing wrong with a game lacking an easier mode. And if they aren't up to the challenge, they can play something else. But when the developers have expressed an interest in creating an easy mode, I don't think there's a downside to adding one. That is, players are not entitled to an easy mode, but I don't think there's anything wrong with one being available.

Actually it turns out that was a translation error, it seems what he meant it that they want more people to play so the game is multi-platform a Pc version is being made from the get go. Also I suppose I could argue the assumption of an "upside" of an easy mode but that is treading old ground. The statement of "if they aren't up to the challenge, they can play something else" is how I think its going to stay.

girzwald:

BioRex:

They could play darksiders or one of the many dark grim games thats gets made.
If we continue the soccer analogy this is someone who has access to a free field and a pro field. They can play in a relaxed fashion at the free field and if they go to the pro field they can play but its a lot harder.
However somebody decides to go the pro field and expects the rules be accommodated to him/her, when told that they can just go to the free field/learn to play better that person calls the pro players elitist.

Except then its not dark souls. Its darksiders.

And your analogy still doesn't work because. Why does it matter how someone else plays on the field if it doesn't affect THEIR game. Like if the pros only played on the weekends and other non pros wanted to use it on the weekdays.... your argument is akin to....

The pros : You're ruining our game!
Others : How? You aren't even playing.
The pros : You aren't playing the way we play, you're ruining our game!
Others : You guys only play on the weekends, we play by more lax rules because we aren't as good as you. We aren't affecting your game at all.
The pros : By your mere existence and not playing by our rules, you are cheapening and ruining our game!

You do know dark souls is multiplayer right? Thus either the two groups will knock heads with one having an unfair advantage, either from stats or skill. Or that From would have to spend the money to make two servers for the different modes. Its more akin to the non-pros having shoes that make them kick harder run faster or some such madness. The analogy does break down after a while doesn't it? Ok lets go full crazy mode, the non-pros get turned into bears by voodoo magic, bears with JETPACKS!!! OH YEAH!!!!

This show has seriously jumped the shark

Man has this got ugly or what? It just seems that the pro-easy mode people just can't understand (or accept) the fact that there are downsides to it. Simple as that. Why aren't the people who are negatively impacted by some consequence(s) of adding an easy mode allowed to be against it?

VyceVictus:

Redd the Sock:

VyceVictus:

You guys cant seem to handle not having a game only you can play

Actually that's the problem: nothing is stopping anyone from playing the game. I mean, do the people wantig easy mode have some cripling infirmity preventing them from doing better, or is it that they've come to expect easy victory from other games that have minimized or elimiated the cost of losing? Lose in Bioshock, no problem, the boss' health wont even regenerate. Lose in borderlands, no sweat, just a cash donation you can probably afford. Keep losing and we'll drop the difficulty or toss you the "easy win" item. Heck, we'll make whole Lego games where you'll never die.

No one is stopping anyone from playing, but some of us don't think we should be garunteed a win if we play, and if someone can't play if they aren't always winning they have issues to deal with. The way I see it, if a blind man can beat Occarina of Time, then no one not missing an arm has the right to compalin about a game's difficulty curve.

With years of work and help from friends. Lots of people aint got that kind of time, even with both hands. So should no game be criticized for being unbalanced or pointing out its flaws? Thats what this site is all about.

I'm not saying it's a readially repeatable feat, just that others are too quick to jump on the "it's too hard" bandwagon when they didn't beat the boss after 2 or 3 tries while someone else decided a very legitimate handicap shouldn't stop him. One is very respectable, that in light of, makes the other seem very small, petty and entitled. I mean, if Dark Souls were more story based I could at least sympathize (how many of us never saw the end of NES Ninja Gaiden until youtube), but without some strong narative people are genuinely frustrated to not see, all I get is a sense of anger that winning the game isn't as easy as they'd like it to be, and that a game built around a punishing challenge somehow reminds them how neutered games have become, invalidating the sense of accomplishment they feel when they beat the game with the "help me" item.

Sande45:
Man has this got ugly or what? It just seems that the pro-easy mode people just can't understand (or accept) the fact that there are downsides to it. Simple as that. Why aren't the people who are negatively impacted by some consequence(s) of adding an easy mode allowed to be against it?

Because there is no real negative consequence. Its just gamers mad that people will "ruin the integrity" or some contrived bullshit. Im not even for easy mode per se, as I think the issue is a balance design aspect that could be tweaked. An improvement that also promotes accessibility doesn't outright have to alter the core experience in any way. One example brought up about the "sunbros"; just make the "easy" mode closed off to multiplayer and have in game avatar guides. Done. Thats just one of many possible examples. The core game never has to be altered.

BiH-Kira:

Church185:

BiH-Kira:

Adding an easy mode will take 3 days at most, few hours at best. It's simply editing some numbers nothing more. And it won't take away from the game because there is always a part of the dev. team that isn't working on anything at the moment which means they are free to work on the easy mode anyways.

You seem to know an awful lot about game development and how much work goes into changing things. May I ask where you got your experience? I would loved to be proved wrong by someone who knows what they are talking about.

Currently at a local university, studying to be a programmer.

In the first few lessons you learn that numbers that could change with updates/patches should be saved so that you can easily change them.

i.e. Make a file for enemies, every line would have name, health, damage, armor. If From finds out that some units are too powerful/weak, they can change only few numbers and patch them without making any serious changes. If all the stats are saved that way (and any competent developer will do something similar), you can make an easy mode by simply having another lane for easy and depending on the mode you chose at start, the game will pick either 1 or the other lane. or you could add few lines of code to take the numbers from the normal game mode and multiply them by 0.67/0.67/0.5. Now the enemy has 33% less health and armor while dealing 50% less damage.

And how I know that there is always a part of the dev. team that isn't currently working on the core game? A part of the team will have to wait for another part to finish before they are able to do their job. That part can be working on a different game or even on DLC's which is lately more common.

Neat meaningful dialogue. The stat changes seems relatively simple, as you've pointed out. But how will they deal with other game mechanics like curse from seethe the scaleless? If you don't know (can't remember if you have played the game or not, sorry) one of the biggest dangers fighting this boss isn't that he does high damage, it's that he'll build your curse status meter until you are insta-killed by it. Once you've been killed by curse, when you come back your health is reduced by half until you remove the curse. Or the challenge of fighting multiple enemies and being stun locked or knocked of a ledge. I'm sure there are other examples, but wouldn't From Software have to change certain boss and game mechanics as well as change stats for an easier mode? I don't think the stat changing solution is as easy as it originally seems.

I have several reasons I don't want or see the need for an easy mode.
One, easy modes are usually always arbitrary and simply decrease enemy damage output and HP, and maybe increase player damage output. This is really shoddy and horrible game design and FROM really shouldn't step down to that level.
Now, they could put time and effort into an easy mode, that changes enemy AI, placements, weapons, etc. but then they take precious time away from the development of the game itself, and I don't want more cut content areas in the game.
Secondly, easy modes already exist in the game, both for offline and online players. Summon someone, use the drake sword, fucking grind the forest or wyvern bridge for loads o souls. FROM put these areas in place (maybe not the soul grinds though) with the intention of being a crutch for players who are struggling, it's an easy mode right there that people keep fracking ignoring.
Third, it's going to frack up the online. They can only fix it by either dividing the world populations up based on difficulty (horrible idea), or just cut access of for easy mode player. If that was to happen I guarantee so many people would frackng whine.
And having an easy mode in the game goes against the very essence of dark souls itself. The game isn't impossible and if you want an easier game to play, go play something else. FROM should just introduce more crutches that become shitty mid game and harder/easier optional areas.

VyceVictus:

Sande45:
Man has this got ugly or what? It just seems that the pro-easy mode people just can't understand (or accept) the fact that there are downsides to it. Simple as that. Why aren't the people who are negatively impacted by some consequence(s) of adding an easy mode allowed to be against it?

Because there is no real negative consequence. Its just gamers mad that people will "ruin the integrity" or some contrived bullshit. Im not even for easy mode per se, as I think the issue is a balance design aspect that could be tweaked. An improvement that also promotes accessibility doesn't outright have to alter the core experience in any way. One example brought up about the "sunbros"; just make the "easy" mode closed off to multiplayer and have in game avatar guides. Done. Thats just one of many possible examples. The core game never has to be altered.

But if the game has sunbro's why does the developer need to do anything, honestly there are few challenges up to when you can have people help, is it too much to ask for people to give the game the good old try, try, try again until that point? There is a bit of a hurdle to easy mode come on I know you can do it. Note I'm trying to be condescending, I enjoy helping people and seeing them exceed at hard things.
Also negative consequence, they spend hours that could be put to other things putting in the easy mode.

Rooster Cogburn:

EvilRoy:

Rooster Cogburn:

It seems overwhelmingly true that people assume we don't want there to be easy mode to exclude the casuals. That is close-minded because it is preventing them from truly listening when we try to inform them of other possibilities.

Once again, as an outsider, what possibilities are these? To me it seems that the standard approach presented by those who don't want an easy mode to exist in general is:

summon something called a 'sunbro' which apparently makes the game a cake walk
read guides online
use forums online
skip large sections of the game

I don't understand why cheating yourself out of gameplay is considered a viable alternative to having an easy mode, and I don't understand why this easy mode couldn't simply involve copious tooltips, hints, more obvious checkpoints/traps/platforming rather than reduced health or damage without damaging your immersion of the game. From what I've read in this thread it seems near-paramount that the player use not only in-game options but out of game options to make the game manageable in terms of difficulty, so why not simply take those out of game options and add them to an easy mode, and make the in game options more obvious?

It would take a while to explain it completely, and I don't have time for another rant right now lol. If you want to know more, send me a PM and I'll reply later. But let me tell you a secret that Dark Souls experts are sworn to keep by Hidetaka Miyazaki himself after they speed run New Game +++++:

Did I just blow your mind? lol. The first time you try each encounter, you say "This is impossible. No one can beat this." But you can. There is a way. It's not that hard at all! There is a trick, and usually it's a combination of things to learn, that will make the encounter easier. And the fun is in going from "This is impossible. No one can beat this" to "I... AM... GOD!!!" The difficulty of Dark Souls is an essential tool. But the main point, and we should always remember it, is to instill a sense of accomplishment. Don't think of the tools available to the community as "cheating yourself". They are features! You see, it's all about LEARNING.

Summoning Sunbros is part of how you make the game easier for yourself. Same with online guides, asking the community, and finding shortcuts. Your level of participation in these things is very much up to you. The idea of Sunbros is to learn by summoning someone to show you how to succeed. But they made the game too easy for me, and I wanted a greater challenge. So I didn't use them much.

The game is designed with the intention that you will use forums and guides based on your preferences. Most players simply need the benefit of the community's experience just to understand the story, unless they put an ass-ton of time in the game. Then they added innovative Coop features, a coop covenant (Sunbros lol), and a message system to provide hints for other players in-game. You can see the ghosts of other players as they die, so you can learn from their failure. Remember, this is a game that most players will spend most of their time in alone- but is obviously intended to be played online! We all have to help each other get through. That's the fun! Be sure to PM me if you ever get the game. You need the community to succeed! And people want to add an easy mode to that? What the actual fuck?

The game is hard. Brutal, even. Unforgiving. But there is a way. And we will find it through Jolly Cooperation. We will not be defeated. Together we are strong!

And yet... so... isolated. And lest ye forget, every rose has it's thorn...

image

So..... Beautiful!

If only I were so grossly incandescent!

Elois:

girzwald:
And if anything is going to make people not want to buy dark souls, its the dark souls community. I've seen more polite and less egotistical people in a game of league of legends.

That is provably untrue if you look at this thread. Not once have I seen anyone in the "no easy mode" camp screaming in all caps or insulting anyone, but I can find plenty of it from your side.

If this is how people are gonna present themselves when asking for our game to be easier, why do we want them in our community?

Dark Souls players have been the most polite, respectful group of players I have ever seen on Xbox live. If there is any hostility coming from us I have to conclude you are just projecting it onto us.

Thank you for recognizing that not all of the community is comprised of Darkwraiths :D

BioRex:

VyceVictus:

Sande45:
Man has this got ugly or what? It just seems that the pro-easy mode people just can't understand (or accept) the fact that there are downsides to it. Simple as that. Why aren't the people who are negatively impacted by some consequence(s) of adding an easy mode allowed to be against it?

Because there is no real negative consequence. Its just gamers mad that people will "ruin the integrity" or some contrived bullshit. Im not even for easy mode per se, as I think the issue is a balance design aspect that could be tweaked. An improvement that also promotes accessibility doesn't outright have to alter the core experience in any way. One example brought up about the "sunbros"; just make the "easy" mode closed off to multiplayer and have in game avatar guides. Done. Thats just one of many possible examples. The core game never has to be altered.

But if the game has sunbro's why does the developer need to do anything, honestly there are few challenges up to when you can have people help, is it too much to ask for people to give the game the good old try, try, try again until that point? There is a bit of a hurdle to easy mode come on I know you can do it. Note I'm trying to be condescending, I enjoy helping people and seeing them exceed at hard things.
Also negative consequence, they spend hours that could be put to other things putting in the easy mode.

For me, personally, this is a detraction to the design. This is the similar to how people say "wahts the point of a single player campaign in COD if all everybody does is multiplayer?". I dont play multiplayer. I get the intent of a communal experience, but that to me is a fundamental design flaw if I have to be online in game to get help in my single player journey in which others could potentially hurt it. Now some would say that is the point, to showcase the theme of a hard world of mistrust. To me and others, its just one of several cheap contrivances that takes away from other great parts of the game. "Faux Co-Op MMO-not realy single player RPG" is not a genre, this is an RPG with other MMO elements, and I and others felt its simply one of the design aspects that do not work.

VyceVictus:

Sande45:
Man has this got ugly or what? It just seems that the pro-easy mode people just can't understand (or accept) the fact that there are downsides to it. Simple as that. Why aren't the people who are negatively impacted by some consequence(s) of adding an easy mode allowed to be against it?

Because there is no real negative consequence. Its just gamers mad that people will "ruin the integrity" or some contrived bullshit.

There's nothing contrived or bullshit about it. An easy mode is at a direct contradiction with the theme and setting of the game. It's supposed to be a cruel, tough and unforgiving world that doesn't give a rats a** about the player. But then it' suddenly supposed to take every player into consideration so that they can complete it.

Im not even for easy mode per se, as I think the issue is a balance design aspect that could be tweaked. An improvement that also promotes accessibility doesn't outright have to alter the core experience in any way. One example brought up about the "sunbros"; just make the "easy" mode closed off to multiplayer and have in game avatar guides. Done. Thats just one of many possible examples. The core game never has to be altered.

Something like this would be way better than pretty much anything mentioned before in this topic. What I would like to see the most though is simply a smoother learning curve for the uninitiated and more explanation on mechanics so the need for wikis and forums wouldn't be so great.

Shadow-Phoenix:
I think this thread is over and done with folks considering we have a nice little select few people in this thread who shoot down any argument for an easy mode because they feel so damn threatened it's not even funny.

Seriously give these guy's rights to publish their book of arguments and let them have a radio show so they can preach more of how ignorant we apparently are and how underserving we are to have an optional mode in place.

That and we now know from the select few that it would take forever to create an optional mode because this game is apparently so fucking unique that we should all give the fuck up on everything else and praise it while shitting on those that don't and those that would like an easy mode.

For the select view you know who you are and I don't give two shits about how adding an easy mode will destroy your game because quite frankly it does come off as elitist no matter what argument you pull out of your ass it will still come off as one because of pulling the "you just don't understand card" followed by "well it's just not the game for you", seriously just learn to accept that other people want an optional mode of difficulty rather than feeling super threatened and desiring to shoot down any argument they have because in the end it does make you look fucking childish.

If the hard mode is it's main selling point why don't you just jog on and go play some hardcore mode tetris to take your fanboy rage off of things because there should be more to a game other than "balls hard mode".

if you desire to quote me in an attempt to call my childish,stupid,ignorant you'll get fucking nowhere I will tell you this right now because it's going to be fruitless and will accomplish nothing.

For those that don't want an "easy" mode placed into the game why not get off your whiny little asses and go straight to the studio and tell them and make sure your thoughts are expressed in such a way that it does happen and then come back and brag about how you told them to do something you wanted them to do against other peoples wishes.

Wow, why are you so upset that I don't want my game to change because of people who don't play it? And why do you take such a pugilistic approach to discussing our issues with easy mode? I've done my best to be polite, I even apologized for a joke that I made that could have been mistaken for a personal attack.

I'm afraid that the addition of an easy mode will take too much time away from the core experience and that the series will turn into a hollow shell of what it used to be. I lament that more people can't experience the game for what it is because of the pressure to be skilled, but you don't need to be skilled to beat it as long as you use the community as a tool, even if its just in game summoning. I don't want them to turn chess into checkers because some people don't like chess.

girzwald:

They are able to make the game the way it is precisely because they only have the one mode to consider. Go ahead, tell me that adding a fully featured flight sim mode to Halo 5 won't drain resources and distract from the design focus.

Thats not even close to being the same thing. And the fact that you have to go so far out on a limb in an attempt to make a point is very telling.

No they weren't. Stop spreading misinformation.

http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2012-09-04-dark-souls-director-considering-adding-optional-easy-mode

You are the one spreading misinformation.

Tell me again how it's us who are the offensive, insulting, elitist douche bags who have to boss everyone around.

Ok. You are. I mean, someone says. "there should be an easy mode". And we get "stop dumbing down games" "its easy, you just suck". are plenty more gems.

I'd bet hard money you were a complete ass to Dark Souls fans and now you're blaming them for not getting off on the wrong foot. It's confirmation bias. You're a dick to us and then you act like we're the ones who are insulting and unreasonable even though it's overwhelmingly the opposite.

Your prejudice against us is blinding you to the realities of the situation.

Ya, I was a complete jerk to people I didn't even know and never met before. No, sorry. Dark Souls fans have the reputation to be complete douche bags and its well earned IMO. Everyone who doesn't think dark souls is easy is bad and should feel bad is pretty much the attitude.

you should read more current news

http://www.ign.com/articles/2012/09/07/dark-souls-easy-mode-comments-were-mistranslated

girzwald:
Thats not even close to being the same thing. And the fact that you have to go so far out on a limb in an attempt to make a point is very telling.

It's way closer then you are willing to admit. This game is designed around difficulty the way Call of Duty is designed around shooting things.

http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2012-09-04-dark-souls-director-considering-adding-optional-easy-mode

You are the one spreading misinformation.

It was a translation error.
http://www.forbes.com/sites/erikkain/2012/09/06/dark-souls-developer-says-easy-mode-comments-were-a-translation-error/

I chose Mr. Kain's article because he includes where Metro implies they think Miyazaki did say he was considering easy mode. I don't want to look like I'm cherry-picking. I don't believe he said that because it is uncharacteristic of Mr. Miyazaki and the misinformation about this series out there is already ridiculous. For example, Dark Souls II was supposedly announced ages ago. Judge for yourself I guess.

Ok. You are. I mean, someone says. "there should be an easy mode". And we get "stop dumbing down games" "its easy, you just suck". are plenty more gems.

Did you see the video this thread is about? Read this thread. The hate is on the PRO easy mode side by a landslide. It's not even close.

Ya, I was a complete jerk to people I didn't even know and never met before. No, sorry. Dark Souls fans have the reputation to be complete douche bags and its well earned IMO. Everyone who doesn't think dark souls is easy is bad and should feel bad is pretty much the attitude.

You are projecting to support your fantasy that the people you're antagonizing are the REAL bad guys. You're prejudiced against us because of our reputation.

Rooster Cogburn:
You don't understand what he is saying. The very fact that there IS NO OPTION to make Gaping Dragon easier is what makes him so scary. Whether or not I would actually choose it is beside the point. The man running at me with a knife isn't quite as scary when I know I have a concealed fire-arm, even if I ultimately CHOSE to duke it out (which is totally what I would do). Thank you for addressing this argument.

It seems overwhelmingly true that people assume we don't want there to be easy mode to exclude the casuals. That is close-minded because it is preventing them from truly listening when we try to inform them of other possibilities.

Wouldn't the answer to that be to just lock the difficulty level at first start? I don't really understand this notion that a option makes playing on hard worse. One wouldn't pick the firearm, when they specifically chose to leave it behind. I mean you can also soul farm and the game will get easier automatically, but still doesn't make it any less badass when you are able to defeat every opponent without wearing armor.

Mortamus:

I think you misunderstood my argument with the other fellow. I'm not asking to be able to "press X to win", but having a simpler option available to those of who don't have the time to invest in the game as much as others due to either family, work, or school. Things that naturally inhibit a gamer's ability to wholly invest in his product, but we really want to be able to experience it without having to make the only thing we play in order to get that experience. Meaning, if I pay the same price as you, I want to actually get that experience. Entertainment is there for you, you're not there to satisfy it.

I think I understood perfectly, you are saying whether you realize it or not that you don't care enough to bother to try to get good enough on your own to the get the game's content as those who have already beaten a game so you want an easier mode added to the game, and you are in favor of making future games in the series easier so you don't have to put in the effort again. Also, not having enough time is a poor excuse, it's a video game, just pick it up and play it whenever you can manage to squeeze in an hour or 2, you have the rest of your life to find the time to play a game, just as you have the rest of your life to find a an hour or so each day to train to run in a Triathlon. If you don't have the time or the dedication to play ANY game to it's conclusion not just Dark Souls you shouldn't be playing that game period, and it doesn't matter if a game has an easy mode or not. An easier mode should not be added to the current game or a future one in the series just because you lack the drive necessary to beat the game as is, there isn't a single video game in history that can't be beaten through persistence, and there never will be a true video game that can't be beaten that way.

Movies, TV, and books are entertainment that you can sit back and enjoy just because you decided to shell out some cash, VIDEO GAMES ARE NOT! Video games are things you have to play and beat on your own ability to experience the content, just like sports are, (if you're participating instead of watching of course) so yes, you ARE there to satisfy it, doesn't matter what game it is. Adding an easier mode to any game series that didn't already have it because SOME people don't care enough to get through it on their own would be like, to continue my Triathlon analogy, a guy was in a race, ran for a couple miniutes and complained that it was too hard, so they gave him a motorcycle, sure, he could still at least get to the finish line if not win just by trying hard enough, but why bother? He could just complain until he gets it easier than everybody else, worse, his complaining would end up causing the Triathlon running event to give everybody motorcycles in the future, so now it's.

What would REALLY happen in such a situation is they'd laugh at that guy and throw him off the track, just like we people that are against putting an easy mode in Dark Souls or any future game in the series are laughing at you people that are for it and want you thrown out. It's not because we are "elitist," but because you don't deserve to get through those games, we do, because WE actually gave enough of a damn to earn our way through. It doesn't matter what game or game series it is, you don't care enough to get through it, you don't deserve to get through it, the fact that you shelled out money for that game doesn't mean you deserve it either. When so many people talk about how so many gamers are having this "entitled" attitude, what you are saying is one the things they are talking about.

Personally, I have yet to beat Demon Souls or even pick up Dark Souls but I will keep trying until I win, I won't demand that the devs make things easier for me so that I can win, I would be a spoiled brat to do that, and I'm 25!

The hate is on the PRO easy mode side by a landslide. It's not even close.

You are projecting to support your fantasy that the people you're antagonizing are the REAL bad guys. You're prejudiced against us because of our reputation.

Oh, such irony.

DayDark:

Rooster Cogburn:
You don't understand what he is saying. The very fact that there IS NO OPTION to make Gaping Dragon easier is what makes him so scary. Whether or not I would actually choose it is beside the point. The man running at me with a knife isn't quite as scary when I know I have a concealed fire-arm, even if I ultimately CHOSE to duke it out (which is totally what I would do). Thank you for addressing this argument.

It seems overwhelmingly true that people assume we don't want there to be easy mode to exclude the casuals. That is close-minded because it is preventing them from truly listening when we try to inform them of other possibilities.

Wouldn't the answer to that be to just lock the difficulty level at first start? I don't really understand this notion that a option makes playing on hard worse. One wouldn't pick the firearm, when they specifically chose to leave it behind. I mean you can also soul farm and the game will get easier automatically, but still doesn't make it any less badass when you are able to defeat every opponent without wearing armor.

Locking the easy mode out would be the same exact thing, it would still be a way of making things easier, which comes back to the same exact problem that Rooster mentioned. Just because it's locked behind some conditions doesn't make a locked out easy mode any different then just having the easy mode out there available from the start.

immortalfrieza:

Locking the easy mode out would be the same exact thing, it would still be a way of making things easier, which comes back to the same exact problem that Rooster mentioned. Just because it's locked behind some conditions doesn't make a locked out easy mode any different then just having the easy mode out there available from the start.

why? the issue seems to be that you can always know that you can go easy, but if you started on normal then you will have to abandon that data if you want to restart on easy. going easy is no longer easy, unless you did it from the start. Basically, it's not a valid alternative to beating an enemy.

Here is someone talking about the easy mode, who actually knows the game.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-b91BWzLigs&NR=1&feature=endscreen

DayDark:

Rooster Cogburn:
You don't understand what he is saying. The very fact that there IS NO OPTION to make Gaping Dragon easier is what makes him so scary. Whether or not I would actually choose it is beside the point. The man running at me with a knife isn't quite as scary when I know I have a concealed fire-arm, even if I ultimately CHOSE to duke it out (which is totally what I would do). Thank you for addressing this argument.

It seems overwhelmingly true that people assume we don't want there to be easy mode to exclude the casuals. That is close-minded because it is preventing them from truly listening when we try to inform them of other possibilities.

Wouldn't the answer to that be to just lock the difficulty level at first start? I don't really understand this notion that a option makes playing on hard worse. One wouldn't pick the firearm, when they specifically chose to leave it behind. I mean you can also soul farm and the game will get easier automatically, but still doesn't make it any less badass when you are able to defeat every opponent without wearing armor.

It's a common suggestion, because it actually is pretty thoughtful.

But this is about how I experience the encounter on an emotional level. The options I am GIVEN bear as directly on that as the options I actually choose. As it is, Gaping Dragon is an indomitable force to be truly feared. If it helps, think of this like it's a story. Suppose the main character could defeat the bad guy at any moment. But he just doesn't. But he COULD. But instead he just goes through the motions AS IF he couldn't. Can't you see how that is not as exciting as the real thing?

EDIT: In terms of how I respond to the game on an emotional level, knowing that I could have made it easy is more-or-less equivalent to knowing I still can. I will always know there is another copy of Gaping Dragon out there that isn't scary. That's not as riveting as the GENUINE apprehension I currently experience.

DayDark:

immortalfrieza:

Locking the easy mode out would be the same exact thing, it would still be a way of making things easier, which comes back to the same exact problem that Rooster mentioned. Just because it's locked behind some conditions doesn't make a locked out easy mode any different then just having the easy mode out there available from the start.

why? the issue seems to be that you can always know that you can go easy, but if you started on normal then you will have to abandon that data if you want to restart on easy. going easy is no longer easy, unless you did it from the start. Basically, it's not a valid alternative to beating an enemy.

If an easy mode is locked instead of avaliable from the start, you can then do whatever you need to unlock it anyway. Then the easy mode is now freely available, and you get back to the problem of the gaping dragon losing it's teeth and thus becoming less scary and beating it less meaningful if there's an easy option that Rooster mentioned.

While im sure there are plenty of others who have said it by now (as im sure im not the only dark souls fanatic out there), the difficulty is really what defines Dark Souls.

To be honest, its not even that hard. A little bit of knowledge, and you can walk through the first 25% of the game no problem. But the idea comes in that, "If there was an easy mode, there wouldnt be accomplishment". When youre on your way to the boss, and you read the messages of "I give up" scrawled on the walls, and the knowledge that many have failed before you really starts to sink in, it takes the game to the next level. If you just "Beat the boss" your first time in the game, youre not going to feel that accomplishment. The accomplishment that you really did do it. Youve been slapped around, hammered into lunch meats, and thrown off cliffs. Youre mad as hell, and you arnt going to take it anymore.

This is a feeling you wont get with an "Easy Mode". The game can be beaten in less then 2 hours by anyone who knows what they are doing, and to be honest, replay-ability is scarce unless youre planning on doing a lot of PvP, which isnt for everyone. So if they gave the Dark Souls series (as it exists now) and easy mode, the game would be far too short. The length of the game comes from it being punishingly hard, and not allowing much error.

Dark Souls itself is about the journey. The brutal, chaotic, painful drudge through what can only be described as "Hell" by a first time player, is what makes Dark Souls such a memorable game. Putting an easy mode into it removes the one aspect that makes Dark Souls truly what Dark Souls is.

Am i against an easy mode? Not entirely. They could make it easier to learn the game. Make parry windows slightly longer, and give shields more stability, so you can actually live long enough to learn. But anything more than that, and youre just ruining the main aspect of the game. And thats to die. To die over and over again. To learn from death, and to put your new knowledge to use. If they make it "easy", you wont die as much, and you wont really learn what the game and is about.

immortalfrieza:

Mortamus:

I think you misunderstood my argument with the other fellow. I'm not asking to be able to "press X to win", but having a simpler option available to those of who don't have the time to invest in the game as much as others due to either family, work, or school. Things that naturally inhibit a gamer's ability to wholly invest in his product, but we really want to be able to experience it without having to make the only thing we play in order to get that experience. Meaning, if I pay the same price as you, I want to actually get that experience. Entertainment is there for you, you're not there to satisfy it.

I think I understood perfectly, you are saying whether you realize it or not that you don't care enough to bother to try to get good enough on your own to the get the game's content as those who have already beaten a game so you want an easier mode added to the game, and you are in favor of making future games in the series easier so you don't have to put in the effort again. Also, not having enough time is a poor excuse, it's a video game, just pick it up and play it whenever you can manage to squeeze in an hour or 2, you have the rest of your life to find the time to play a game, just as you have the rest of your life to find a an hour or so each day to train to run in a Triathlon. If you don't have the time or the dedication to play ANY game to it's conclusion not just Dark Souls you shouldn't be playing that game period, and it doesn't matter if a game has an easy mode or not. An easier mode should not be added to the current game or a future one in the series just because you lack the drive necessary to beat the game as is, there isn't a single video game in history that can't be beaten through persistence, and there never will be a true video game that can't be beaten that way.

Movies, TV, and books are entertainment that you can sit back and enjoy just because you decided to shell out some cash, VIDEO GAMES ARE NOT! Video games are things you have to play and beat on your own ability to experience the content, just like sports are, (if you're participating instead of watching of course) so yes, you ARE there to satisfy it, doesn't matter what game it is. Adding an easier mode to any game series that didn't already have it because SOME people don't care enough to get through it on their own would be like, to continue my Triathlon analogy, a guy was in a race, ran for a couple miniutes and complained that it was too hard, so they gave him a motorcycle, sure, he could still at least get to the finish line if not win just by trying hard enough, but why bother? He could just complain until he gets it easier than everybody else, worse, his complaining would end up causing the Triathlon running event to give everybody motorcycles in the future, so now it's.

What would REALLY happen in such a situation is they'd laugh at that guy and throw him off the track, just like we people that are against putting an easy mode in Dark Souls or any future game in the series are laughing at you people that are for it and want you thrown out. It's not because we are "elitist," but because you don't deserve to get through those games, we do, because WE actually gave enough of a damn to earn our way through. It doesn't matter what game or game series it is, you don't care enough to get through it, you don't deserve to get through it, the fact that you shelled out money for that game doesn't mean you deserve it either. When so many people talk about how so many gamers are having this "entitled" attitude, what you are saying is one the things they are talking about.

Personally, I have yet to beat Demon Souls or even pick up Dark Souls but I will keep trying until I win, I won't demand that the devs make things easier for me so that I can win, I would be a spoiled brat to do that, and I'm 25!

Relating a video game to a triathlon or any physical contest is lauhghabale. One is a true testament to human conditioning and endurance. The other is a fucking game. Thats like saying watching a movie marathon is a sport. You know who "earns" the rights to a game? someone who paid money for it. Gaming is a past-time, not a special meter of your worth. Challenge is just one core gaming aspect. The other is the feedback, the stimulus you get from input to output. You are not their to satisfy the game, the satisfaction comes through the interaction. You were never meant to "satisfy" Pong. It was a challenge, but it was also engaging to play. If the imediate feedback wasnt so fun and engaging, youd just go out and play real tennis.

girzwald:

The hate is on the PRO easy mode side by a landslide. It's not even close.

You are projecting to support your fantasy that the people you're antagonizing are the REAL bad guys. You're prejudiced against us because of our reputation.

Oh, such irony.

You are blowing up simple criticisms as if they were unbearable hateful insults while I'm being called an ass-hat and a douche-bag and a whiny bitch and every bad thing imaginable. And then you're calling my side the hateful insulting ones while we endure all this.

VyceVictus:
Relating a video game to a triathlon or any physical contest is lauhghabale. One is a true testament to human conditioning and endurance. The other is a fucking game. Thats like saying watching a movie marathon is a sport. You know who "earns" the rights to a game? someone who paid money for it. Gaming is a past-time, not a special meter of your worth. Challenge is just one core gaming aspect. The other is the feedback, the stimulus you get from input to output. You are not their to satisfy the game, the satisfaction comes through the interaction. You were never meant to "satisfy" Pong. It was a challenge, but it was also engaging to play. If the imediate feedback wasnt so fun and engaging, youd just go out and play real tennis.

Why do we all have to be prisoners to whatever you think gaming is? Why can't you have all the games but one and I will just have the one? Why isn't that good enough for you?

Rooster Cogburn:
It's a common suggestion, because it actually is pretty thoughtful.

But this is about how I experience the encounter on an emotional level. The options I am GIVEN bear as directly on that as the options I actually choose. As it is, Gaping Dragon is an indomitable force to be truly feared. If it helps, think of this like it's a story. Suppose the main character could defeat the bad guy at any moment. But he just doesn't. But he COULD. But instead he just goes through the motions AS IF he couldn't. Can't you see how that is not as exciting as the real thing?

I can understand where you are coming from, or at least I think what you say makes sense. That said, it probably is exciting for anyone who plays on easy, because they specifically chose to go that route, not talking specifically dark/demon souls, but just in general. I mean I can imagine myself going down to easy in a game, if I had spent 25+ tries on passing a difficult path, that's a lot of hours or life I lost replaying the same data. I imagine it's not really that exciting anymore to be honest, if there was no easy mode I would probably just return the game, because even if I could eventually beat the game normally, it would already not be worth the energy I spent already.

EDIT- The last bit is possibly a exaggeration, I would probably turn to the internet, but even then, to some that's the same as returning the game.

People should learn than "making something easier =/= adding an easy mode in addition to the already harder one"

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