It's the same as making a COMIC con or an ANIME con or a VIDEO GAME con. You're just gearing most of the features and/or the community attending to be focused on noticing or accepting a specific facet of gamer culture.
Verkula: Actually, it is, at least a little bit. Maybe not now with the con, but in the end, in a global scale. Altough I doubt Ill live to see that.
I meant the con specifically. There is no argument a straight person can give me that can reasonably justify giving their opinions any degree of weight.
As for the 'global scale', see the rest of my paragraph. If equality is an important matter to you, listen to the people who suffer from inequality. That's far more constructive and important than knee-jerk reactions to things you might not even understand.
Why would gaymers want their own cons? Well, why would lolis want their own con?
(HINT: The subject matter covered is inherently disgusting to CISGENDERED HETERONORMATIVE BIGOTS normals no matter how many episodes of Glee you watch.)
I fully support gaymer-cons and in fact would encourage all gay gamers to stick with those. As many as possible.
I wonder why they would segregate themselves from others and if being gay is normal why they have to make such an issue of it. It just seems that, for instance, black or gay or whatever can have there own clubs but god forbid there is a white only or straight men only event. Gaming bonds all people regardless, doesnt matter what your background is.
Speaking without rancor, I don't think it's a particularly great idea you can insist all you like that the convention is open to everyone but it's still not going to change the fact that most straight people attending would feel just a little bit uncomfortable as the very name implies it's not intended for us. (Maybe that's the point, who knows?)
I think it would have been much more constructive if instead they didn't give it a specific focus on gay culture in gaming and instead simply made it part of their mission brief to be inclusive to all gamers with the promise of removing anyone who showed intolerance towards another part of our culture.
Maybe I've just lucked out here and I just happen to frequent some of the most down-to-earth and unprejudiced gaming hangouts about but I really do think our culture is one of the most inclusive and forward thinking ones around.
My captcha was a picture of a puppy, this pleases me.
Well, I believe so. They've been over-shadowed by the whole brony thing, but MLP collectors have been around for a long time. Similar to Beanie Babies.
Plus, y'know, MLP probably had a large presence at toy conventions even before the brony thing.
I'd like to give a comparison, particularly aimed at the sort of people who think this kind of thing is LGBT people segregating themselves or just shying away from the the harassment and being too sensitive.
I work in a movie theater, it's pretty new and kind of in an awkward location with nothing around, there's another, much bigger cinema right in the heart of the city. When we opened we did practically no business. One demographic we did quite well with? Gay couples. They came because they knew there wouldn't be huge crowds, they new they could be open and it would be less likely they'd be harassed. Is this giving up? No, they still do things in the city, go to bars and restaurants and everything else straight people can do. They don't want to have to defend themselves all the time. They want a safe comfortable environment. Because they don't want the simple act of enjoying media with their partner or even alone to always be about defending their lifestyle. They want to go somewhere where they're the norm.
And when Gaymer X is over they'll probably go to PAX eventually or another big con, they'll probably still be involved in LGBT movements for equality but every once in awhile they get to take it easy and just relax and fit in the way straight people do all the time everywhere they go.
Ickorus: Speaking without rancor, I don't think it's a particularly great idea you can insist all you like that the convention is open to everyone but it's still not going to change the fact that most straight people attending would feel just a little bit uncomfortable as the very name implies it's not intended for us. (Maybe that's the point, who knows?)
You have perfectly encapsulated the feeling most LGBT people feel when they go to regular cons, for the exact same reasons.
Ickorus: Maybe I've just lucked out here and I just happen to frequent some of the most down-to-earth and unprejudiced gaming hangouts about but I really do think our culture is one of the most inclusive and forward thinking ones around.
Occam's Razor states you're probably just unaware. It's okay, it happens.
I am curious about something. Do the creators of this con believe that whatever they are trying to get away from in regular cons will not follow them there? That the very small number of intolerant knuckle draggers they are trying to get away from will not follow them?
The knuckle draggers are a persistent lot, vindictive and petty. Making a con like this is very much like waving a red flag at a bull.
Ickorus: Speaking without rancor, I don't think it's a particularly great idea you can insist all you like that the convention is open to everyone but it's still not going to change the fact that most straight people attending would feel just a little bit uncomfortable as the very name implies it's not intended for us. (Maybe that's the point, who knows?)
You have perfectly encapsulated the feeling most LGBT people feel when they go to regular cons, for the exact same reasons.
Ickorus: Maybe I've just lucked out here and I just happen to frequent some of the most down-to-earth and unprejudiced gaming hangouts about but I really do think our culture is one of the most inclusive and forward thinking ones around.
Occam's Razor states you're probably just unaware. It's okay, it happens.
I think for me it's that I've never seen the walls that apparently exist that cause people to treat others differently based on silly things like sexual preference, race, gender or whatever else you care to think of.
People treat it negatively* but this lack of understanding is what everyone should wish for, if nobody saw the walls they wouldn't exist and the world would be a far better place.
* Just look at some of the posts in this thread to see what I mean.
So conversely, you are saying regular game cons are exclusively for straights? Now if we did THAT we would get sued... double standards gall me. If you're a gamer, be a gamer. There shouldn't be "gaymers" because that creates "straightmers." Lobbying for anything other than equality and unity is divisive. That is why while racism is bad, the Black Panthers and the Rainbow Coalition are also bad. This is why while sexism is bad, N.O.W. is also bad. Men's lobbies, white lobbies, and straight lobbies aren't okay because they're prejudiced. So why is the other way around okay? Be gamers, not "look-at-me-because-I'm-different"mers.
Myrmecodon: Why would gaymers want their own cons? Well, why would lolis want their own con?
(HINT: The subject matter covered is inherently disgusting to CISGENDERED HETERONORMATIVE BIGOTS normals no matter how many episodes of Glee you watch.)
I fully support gaymer-cons and in fact would encourage all gay gamers to stick with those. As many as possible.
Out of curiosity, would a "straightmercon" (nevermind how retarded that reads) be intolerant? A con specifically for straight gamers, gays need not apply?
Nieroshai: So conversely, you are saying regular game cons are exclusively for straights? Now if we did THAT we would get sued... double standards gall me.
This isn't exclusively for gay people. It's to create an environment where homosexuality is the norm, kind of like how heterosexuality is treated everywhere else.
Be gamers, not "look-at-me-because-I'm-different"mers.
That's not what it is about. It's about being comfortable. It's not as easy as you make it out to be. Gaming culture is a hetero-centric one with a lot of passive aggressive gay bashing. I don't think everyone who uses "gay" and "fag" as insults are actually homophobic but it does demonstrate a lack of understanding and creates an uncomfortable environment for LGBT gamers.
Myrmecodon: Why would gaymers want their own cons? Well, why would lolis want their own con?
(HINT: The subject matter covered is inherently disgusting to CISGENDERED HETERONORMATIVE BIGOTS normals no matter how many episodes of Glee you watch.)
I fully support gaymer-cons and in fact would encourage all gay gamers to stick with those. As many as possible.
Out of curiosity, would a "straightmercon" (nevermind how retarded that reads) be intolerant? A con specifically for straight gamers, gays need not apply?
Nope and neither would an exclusively gay con which luckily this isn't. Like I said, they're not gonna make you suck a dick at the door to prove yourself.
Xanex: I am curious about something. Do the creators of this con believe that whatever they are trying to get away from in regular cons will not follow them there? That the very small number of intolerant knuckle draggers they are trying to get away from will not follow them?
The knuckle draggers are a persistent lot, vindictive and petty. Making a con like this is very much like waving a red flag at a bull.
In a regular con, only 20% will genuinely care, at most. Everyone else will either actively not care or just pretend to care because it's the socially acceptable thing to do. The knuckle draggers will not meet that much opposition.
At a gaymer con, it's likely the percentages will be reversed.
Ickorus: I think for me it's that I've never seen the walls that apparently exist that cause people to treat others differently based on silly things like sexual preference, race, gender or whatever else you care to think of.
People treat it negatively but this lack of understanding is what everyone should wish for, if nobody saw the walls they wouldn't exist and the world would be a far better place.
When you're a member of the privileged majority, it's very tempting to close your eyes and pretend everything's fine and go "it's okay guys, you can stop complaining, we reached equality" and treat wilful blindness and ignorance as a way to keep on pretending everything's fine. It's not a malicious thing, but it happens, and it happens alarmingly often. You know who truly knows if we've reached equality or not? The minorities and the oppressed (which are not the same). Ask them if we've reached equality yet or not.
Nieroshai: So conversely, you are saying regular game cons are exclusively for straights? Now if we did THAT we would get sued... double standards gall me. If you're a gamer, be a gamer. There shouldn't be "gaymers" because that creates "straightmers." Lobbying for anything other than equality and unity is divisive. That is why while racism is bad, the Black Panthers and the Rainbow Coalition are also bad. This is why while sexism is bad, N.O.W. is also bad. Men's lobbies, white lobbies, and straight lobbies aren't okay because they're prejudiced. So why is the other way around okay? Be gamers, not "look-at-me-because-I'm-different"mers.
No.
I'm just gonna say it: you're flat out wrong.
It's not that "if you did that you would get sued". You already do that. See my examples in a previous post, the entertainment culture (of which games are a part) already caters almost exclusively to straight white males. Every other demographic has to fight tooth and nail to get recognised. "Straightmers" already exist. They're called gamers. That's why we have "girl gamers" too, because the default is the straight white male.
The reason straight white males have a problem with minorities and the underprivileged fighting for rights and inclusion is because "privileging the straight white male" is seen as normal and the status quo. By trying to change that, straight white males feel threatened because they're no longer being catered to.
I've had this saved from somewhere but I forgot where, now is the time to post it. Here we go.
"I want to belong... by being sorted out !!!"
Yup, that's a common wish, not only shared by the LGBT community, but by pretty much everyone. You can't approach the question of the "Why this convention ? What's the point ?" objectively, because there's no tangible objective argument justifying it, no matter how much some feisty people on this thread will try to convince otherwise.
It's all "justified" by subjectivity, a big mix of frustration of being insulted on online games for a sexual orientation (I'm guessing, based on some arguments I'm reading; and there's probably some other stuff I'd never understand personally, which is fine). It's not a logical move, so trying to understand it like that will hurt your brain.
But it being illogical doesn't make it nonsense : Of course there's an issue, (just look a at multiplayer Call of duty game on Youtube and you'll get the picture). Is this the best way to deal with the problem though ?
As for my own opinion on the conference, I think it's dumb, because it could be integrated as a panel in already existing well-known conventions, thus informing and sensitising more people (and probably the CONCERNED people) to the issue (as it is, it's preaching to the choir).
The "fear of bigots crashing your presentation" argument is just an excuse, I'm sure the Comic con (for example) security is qualified to deal with those idiots. And don't quote me on that, but I'm also inclined to think those panels wouldn't be rejected by conference administrative staff: rejecting a panel of this nature is bad publicity, green lighting it make them look progressive.
"Yes, but it is a tight-knit community with individual that would enjoy meeting people going through the same troubles and sharing the same passion simultaneously."
Well, yeah, that's exactly my point : The main motivation, is to provide a shiny, "my very own thing" kinda feeling, to that community. If you wanna feel like you belong and have fun, that's a good place for you (gaming cons in general are, too), but don't tell me you're trying to tackle the issue with this.
As I said, I think it's dumb, but, if I turn my brain off for a second, I also think it's okay too. Because even though it's not serving the "cause" as well as it could be, according to me, it provides a feeling of satisfaction and belonging to a community that may be craving for it.
Ickorus: Speaking without rancor, I don't think it's a particularly great idea you can insist all you like that the convention is open to everyone but it's still not going to change the fact that most straight people attending would feel just a little bit uncomfortable as the very name implies it's not intended for us. (Maybe that's the point, who knows?)
I think it would have been much more constructive if instead they didn't give it a specific focus on gay culture in gaming and instead simply made it part of their mission brief to be inclusive to all gamers with the promise of removing anyone who showed intolerance towards another part of our culture.
Maybe I've just lucked out here and I just happen to frequent some of the most down-to-earth and unprejudiced gaming hangouts about but I really do think our culture is one of the most inclusive and forward thinking ones around.
The point isn't to make straight people feel uncomfortable, it's just not being the target audience has that effect. The need for such a con is because, your corner of the 'verse apparently aside, the wider gaming community can be quite shockingly homophobic, sexist and exclusionary at times. I'm really glad that situations exist where people can get the opinion of our culture as being forward thinking and inclusive, but the sad fact of the matter is that it is not the case.
Gaming culture is largely reactionary rather than forward thinking. Maybe it's because of our until-recent isolation and underdog status within the wider culture, or maybe not. I don't fancy doing armchair psychology. The fact is though that wider gaming culture is very defensive and monolithic. It's also not very inclusive at all. 5 minutes on voice chat in an online shooter will show you that. I've been called fag more times whilst online gaming than I was after being outed as bi in an all boys church high school.
I'll give you an example. Every year my home city has a festival of queer artistic culture. (Not that my city is particularly inclusive or anything, we have festivals for everything from guitars, to busking, to v8 supercars. We're a very festival-happy city) one of the big highlights of the community aspect of the festival is a big picnic in the town square. Nothing particularly 'queer' about it except that it's set up with the express purpose of being queer-friendly. Straight people are welcome to come along, but they're not the target audience.
You might ask "Why have a gay picnic? What would you do differently at a gay picnic than a regular picnic?" in the same way as you'd ask "Why have a Gaymercon? What would you do differently at a Gaymercon than a regular Gamercon" but you'd be missing the point. It's not about having a con or a picnic with a 'gay theme'.
I went to the picnic for the first time this year, and I had a great time sitting and eating with some friends of mine I didn't get to see very often. The striking thing about the picnic was that we didn't *do* anything different to a regular picnic. The only thing that was different was that as opposed to any other picnic was that here everyone knew or assumed I was queer and /no-one gave a rats/. There I was *normal*, and I don't get to feel that way very often.
So why have a gaymercon? It's not to focus on games with a queer theme, or to provide queer gamers with a place to 'hook up' (I'm not even going to begin to discuss people constantly making that assumption except to say it is a perfect illustration of why we need a con in the first place). It's to provide us a place where everyone either knows or assumes and nobody cares. A place where we can celebrate the gaming subculture whilst feeling normal when we don't get that very often.
It might seem small to you, but you get that everywhere you go, whereas in my experience gaming culture is largely a place where no-one knows or assumes and once they find out *everyone* cares, and you rarely, if ever, get to feel normal.
Case in point. This thread has over 260 replies. The one where Jonathan took a swipe at religion (At Christmas no less) only managed 74.
Is this Con banning non-gay people from attending? (Answer: NO)
If the gay culture is not your thing, then give the convention a pass. All these complaints almost feel like people are afraid that having too many conventions will somehow deplete the non-renewable convention resource! (Hint: it won't, you can have a theoretical infinite number of conventions with infinite themes, given enough geek critical mass)
Discussing whether there is a need for this convention or not is exactly the same thing detractors of videogames or comics argue regarding those conventions. Just because you don't get it, it doesn't mean it's worthless.
Gay Culture lol? Isn't the whole idea that lesbians and gays want to be seen as no different than any straight person? I didn't know that sexual orientations had a whole culture reserved for themselves...
No, they want to be "treated" the same way. Integration is about different people living in harmony, not reducing every culture to a homogenous soup. I mean think about what you just said there. Would you suggest the same thing about a Chinese person? That their culture somehow prevents them from being seen as "the same" as everyone else.
So, I'm confused. Damn-near all cons are made to appeal to straight white males. Gaymer X is just like them, but instead is made to appeal to not straight white males. Straight white males are more than welcome to attend, but the focus simply isn't on them.
Why is this such a big issue? Nobody is excluding anyone, nobody's going to make anyone feel unwelcome, nothing is being taken away from anyone, it's just another video-game convention but just not aimed at straight white males.
Irridium: So, I'm confused. Damn-near all cons are made to appeal to straight, white, males. Gaymer X is just like them, but instead is made to appeal to not straight, white, males. Straight white males are more than welcome to attend, but the focus simply isn't on them.
Why is this such a big issue? Nobody is excluding anyone, nobody's going to make anyone feel unwelcome, nothing is being taken away from anyone, it's just another video-game convention but just not aimed at straight white males.
Again, why is that an issue?
Straight privilege.
EDIT: As I said before, the problem with straight privilege is that straight people perceive being catered to as the status quo, so any perturbation of this is seen as a threat. Wanting a safe area for LGBT people to feel safe and comfortable (emphasis on safety!) is seen as an insult because we're not bending over to make sure they feel catered to.
bartholen: This. Another thing I thought about was that are there even enough "gaymers" that 1) particularly want this sort of thing and 2) live densely enough to make this a big event? I don't imagine one would be willing to drive 500 miles just to get to a gaming convention specifically aimed at their sexuality. Unless gaming conventions are REALLY homphobic events, I really don't see much point in this.
with all due respect, 1) that's actually part of the point of this, 'cause gay gamers totally exist. and 2) for Magic pre-release events, people used to drive a lot farther than that. So there's definitely precedence. Also, I'd be interested in going that far or further to some of the cons I've been interested in.
Also, as people are straight, and many don't notice the subtle privileges that straight people have. Most conventions aren't TOO homophobic but it's still really nice to be able to not have to worry about such things at all, even if only for a short time.
some examples of straight privilege for those who don't like linksPHA+lSBJIGNhbiBiZSBwcmV0dHkgc3VyZSB0aGF0IHRoZSBwZW9wbGUgSSBlbmNvdW50ZXIgd2lsbCBiZSBjb21mb3J0YWJsZSB3aXRoIG15IHNleHVhbCBvcmllbnRhdGlvbjxiciAvPpUgSWYgSSBwaWNrIHVwIGEgbWFnYXppbmUsIHdhdGNoIFRWLCBvciBwbGF5IG11c2ljLCBJIGNhbiBiZSBjZXJ0YWluIG15IHNleHVhbCBvcmllbnRhdGlvbiB3aWxsIGJlIHJlcHJlc2VudGVkLjxiciAvPpUgV2hlbiBJIHRhbGsgYWJvdXQgbXkgaGV0ZXJvc2V4dWFsaXR5LCBzdWNoIGFzIGluIGEgam9rZSBvciB0YWxraW5nIGFib3V0IG15IHJlbGF0aW9uc2hpcCwgSSB3aWxsIG5vdCBiZSBhY2N1c2VkIG9mIHB1c2hpbmcgbXkgc2V4dWFsIG9yaWVudGF0aW9uIG9udG8gb3RoZXJzLjxiciAvPpUgSSBkbyBub3QgaGF2ZSB0byBmZWFyIHRoYXQgaWYgbXkgZmFtaWx5IG9yIGZyaWVuZHMgZmluZCBvdXQgYWJvdXQgbXkgc2V4dWFsIG9yaWVudGF0aW9uIHRoZXJlIHdpbGwgYmUgZWNvbm9taWMsIGVtb3Rpb25hbCwgcGh5c2ljYWwgb3IgcHN5Y2hvbG9naWNhbCBjb25zZXF1ZW5jZXMuPGJyIC8+lSBJIGRpZCBub3QgZ3JvdyB1cCB3aXRoIGdhbWVzIHRoYXQgYXR0YWNrIG15IHNleHVhbCBvcmllbnRhdGlvbiAoZWcuIGZhZyB0YWcgb3Igc21lYXIgdGhlIHF1ZWVyKTxiciAvPpUgSSBhbSBub3QgYWNjdXNlZCBvZiBiZWluZyBhYnVzZWQsIHdhcnBlZCBvciBwc3ljaG9sb2dpY2FsbHkgY29uZnVzZWQgYmVjYXVzZSBvZiBteSBzZXh1YWwgb3JpZW50YXRpb24uPGJyIC8+lSBJIGNhbiBnbyBob21lIGZyb20gbW9zdCBtZWV0aW5ncywgY2xhc3NlcyBhbmQgY29udmVyc2F0aW9ucyB3aXRob3V0IGZlZWxpbmcgZXhjbHVkZWQsIGZlYXJmdWwsIGF0dGFja2VkLCBpc29sYXRlZCwgb3V0bnVtYmVyZWQsIHVuaGVhcmQsIGhlbGQgYXQgYSBkaXN0YW5jZSwgc3RlcmVvdHlwZWQgb3IgZmVhcmVkIGJlY2F1c2Ugb2YgbXkgc2V4dWFsIG9yaWVudGF0aW9uLjxiciAvPpUgSSB3b24ndCBiZSBhc2tlZCB0byBzcGVhayBmb3IgZXZlcnlvbmUgd2hvIGlzIGhldGVyb3NleHVhbC48YnIgLz6VIFBlb3BsZSB3b24ndCBhc2sgd2h5IEkgbWFkZSBteSBjaG9pY2Ugb2Ygc2V4dWFsIG9yaWVudGF0aW9uLjxiciAvPpUgUGVvcGxlIHdvbid0IGFzayB3aHkgSSBtYWRlIG15IGNob2ljZSB0byBiZSBwdWJsaWMgYWJvdXQgbXkgc2V4dWFsIG9yaWVudGF0aW9uLjxiciAvPpUgSSB3b24ndCBoYXZlIHRvIGZlYXIgcmV2ZWFsaW5nIG15IHNleHVhbCBvcmllbnRhdGlvbiB0byBmcmllbmRzIG9yIGZhbWlseS4gSXQncyBhc3N1bWVkLjxiciAvPpUgUGVvcGxlIHdvbid0IHRyeSB0byBjb252aW5jZSBtZSB0byBjaGFuZ2UgbXkgc2V4dWFsIG9yaWVudGF0aW9uLjxiciAvPpUgSSB3b24ndCBoYXZlIHRvIGRlZmVuZCBteSBoZXRlcm9zZXh1YWxpdHkuPGJyIC8+lSBJIGNhbiBlYXNpbHkgZmluZCBhIGZhaXRoIGNvbW11bml0eSB0aGF0IHdpbGwgbm90IGV4Y2x1ZGUgbWUgZm9yIGJlaW5nIGEgaGV0ZXJvc2V4dWFsIGluIGEgcmVsYXRpb25zaGlwLiA8YnIgLz6VIEkgd29uJ3QgbmVlZCB0byB3b3JyeSB0aGF0IHBlb3BsZSB3aWxsIGhhcmFzcyBtZSBiZWNhdXNlIG9mIG15IHNleHVhbCBvcmllbnRhdGlvbi48YnIgLz6VIEkgd29uJ3QgbmVlZCB0byBxdWFsaWZ5IG15IHN0cmFpZ2h0IGlkZW50aXR5LjxiciAvPpUgTXkgbWFzY3VsaW5pdHkgb3IgZmVtaW5pbml0eSB3b24ndCBiZSBjaGFsbGVuZ2VkIGJlY2F1c2Ugb2YgbXkgc2V4dWFsIG9yaWVudGF0aW9uLjxiciAvPpUgSSB3b24ndCBiZSBwcmltYXJpbHkgb3Igc29sZWx5IGlkZW50aWZpZWQgYnkgbXkgc2V4dWFsIG9yaWVudGF0aW9uLjxiciAvPpUgSWYgbXkgZGF5LCB3ZWVrIG9yIHllYXIgaXMgZ29pbmcgYmFkbHksIEkgbmVlZCBub3QgYXNrIG9mIGVhY2ggbmVnYXRpdmUgZXBpc29kZSBvciBzaXR1YXRpb24gd2hldGhlciBpdCBoYXMgc2V4dWFsIG9yaWVudGF0aW9uIG92ZXJ0b25lcy48YnIgLz6VIEkgYW0gZ3VhcmFudGVlZCB0byBmaW5kIHBlb3BsZSBvZiBteSBzZXh1YWwgb3JpZW50YXRpb24gcmVwcmVzZW50ZWQgaW4gbXkgd29ya3BsYWNlLjxiciAvPpUgSSBjYW4gd2FsayBpbiBwdWJsaWMgd2l0aCBteSBzaWduaWZpY2FudCBvdGhlciBhbmQgbm90IGhhdmUgcGVvcGxlIGRvIGEgZG91YmxlLXRha2Ugb3Igc3RhcmUuPGJyIC8+lSBJIGNhbiByZW1haW4gb2JsaXZpb3VzIG9mIHRoZSBsYW5ndWFnZSBhbmQgY3VsdHVyZSBvZiBzZXh1YWwgbWlub3JpdHkgcGVyc29ucyB3aXRob3V0IGZlZWxpbmcgaW4gbXkgY3VsdHVyZSBhbnkgcGVuYWx0eSBmb3Igc3VjaCBvYmxpdmlvbi48YnIgLz6VIEkgY2FuIGdvIGZvciBtb250aHMgd2l0aG91dCBiZWluZyBjYWxsZWQgc3RyYWlnaHQuPGJyIC8+lSBQZW9wbGUgZG8gbm90IGFzc3VtZSBJIGFtIGV4cGVyaWVuY2VkIGluIHNleCAob3IgdGhhdCBJIGV2ZW4gaGF2ZSBpdCkgbWVyZWx5IGJlY2F1c2Ugb2YgbXkgc2V4dWFsIG9yaWVudGF0aW9uLjxiciAvPpUgTm9ib2R5IGNhbGxzIG1lIHN0cmFpZ2h0IHdpdGggbWFsaWNpb3VzbmVzcy48YnIgLz6VIFBlb3BsZSBjYW4gdXNlIHRlcm1zIHRoYXQgZGVzY3JpYmUgbXkgc2V4dWFsIG9yaWVudGF0aW9uIGFuZCBtZWFuIHBvc2l0aXZlIHRoaW5ncyAoZWcuIHN0cmFpZ2h0IGFzIGFuIGFycm93LCBzdGFuZGluZyB1cCBzdHJhaWdodCwgb3Igc3RyYWlnaHRlbmVkIG91dCkgaW5zdGVhZCBvZiBkZW1lYW5pbmcgdGVybXMgKGVnLmV3d3cgdGhhdCdzIGdheSwgb3Igc3RvcCBiZWluZyBzbyBxdWVlcik8YnIgLz6VIEkgYW0gbm90IGFza2VkIHRvIHRoaW5rIGFib3V0IHdoeSBJIGFtIHN0cmFpZ2h0LjxiciAvPpUgSSBjYW4gYmUgb3BlbiBhYm91dCBteSBzZXh1YWwgb3JpZW50YXRpb24gYW5kIG5vdCB3b3JyeSBhYm91dCBteSBqb2IsIGFjY2VzcyB0byBob3VzaW5nLCB0cmVhdG1lbnQgYXQgYSBiZWQgJiBicmVha2Zhc3QsIG9yIHJlc3BvbnNlIGluIGhlYWx0aCBjcmlzZXMuPC9wPg==
bartholen: How does sexuality affect behavior at a gaming convention?
Well, your sexuality doesn't really affect behavior, but the sexuality of others does. For one, straight guys can get very uncomfortable if a guy says that a male character is attractive. Also, just like in most things, gays are a minority and so it is difficult for them to easily be around other gays, and those they do know are not guaranteed to share their interests.
Irridium: So, I'm confused. Damn-near all cons are made to appeal to straight, white, males. Gaymer X is just like them, but instead is made to appeal to not straight, white, males. Straight white males are more than welcome to attend, but the focus simply isn't on them.
Why is this such a big issue? Nobody is excluding anyone, nobody's going to make anyone feel unwelcome, nothing is being taken away from anyone, it's just another video-game convention but just not aimed at straight white males.
Again, why is that an issue?
Straight privilege.
I laughed and laughed and laughed. You'll probably want to add a touch more to your post so you don't get dinged for low content. See you 'round the forum!
Irridium: So, I'm confused. Damn-near all cons are made to appeal to straight white males. Gaymer X is just like them, but instead is made to appeal to not straight white males. Straight white males are more than welcome to attend, but the focus simply isn't on them.
Why is this such a big issue? Nobody is excluding anyone, nobody's going to make anyone feel unwelcome, nothing is being taken away from anyone, it's just another video-game convention but just not aimed at straight white males.
Again, why is that an issue?
Because apparently it's "heterophobia" or excluding straight people.
Well, I believe so. They've been over-shadowed by the whole brony thing, but MLP collectors have been around for a long time. Similar to Beanie Babies.
Plus, y'know, MLP probably had a large presence at toy conventions even before the brony thing.
Oh that doesn't count. That's a toy thing, not a MLP thing.
bartholen: This. Another thing I thought about was that are there even enough "gaymers" that 1) particularly want this sort of thing and 2) live densely enough to make this a big event? I don't imagine one would be willing to drive 500 miles just to get to a gaming convention specifically aimed at their sexuality. Unless gaming conventions are REALLY homphobic events, I really don't see much point in this.
with all due respect, 1) that's actually part of the point of this, 'cause gay gamers totally exist. and 2) for Magic pre-release events, people used to drive a lot farther than that. So there's definitely precedence. Also, I'd be interested in going that far or further to some of the cons I've been interested in.
Also, as people are straight, and many don't notice the subtle privileges that straight people have. Most conventions aren't TOO homophobic but it's still really nice to be able to not have to worry about such things at all, even if only for a short time.
some examples of straight privilege for those who don't like 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
bartholen: How does sexuality affect behavior at a gaming convention?
Well, your sexuality doesn't really affect behavior, but the sexuality of others does. For one, straight guys can get very uncomfortable if a guy says that a male character is attractive. Also, just like in most things, gays are a minority and so it is difficult for them to easily be around other gays, and those they do know are not guaranteed to share their interests.
Ya know... *sigh*
That privilege stuff is really just a broad generalization. One that was enough to make me feel alienated enough that I didn't want to join/help/endorse the GSA in high school. Doesn't just go for the gay thing either, goes for a lot of things.
Everybody has problems. No one is born with acceptance on their back. Everyone feels alienated. Rich, poor, black, asian, whatever.
It's just one of those "Oh you think you got it hard?" blech. Doesn't bring people together, just drives them to be further segregated. Us vs Them. They couldn't possibly understand us and our problems, that line of thinking.
Zen Toombs: I laughed and laughed and laughed. You'll probably want to add a touch more to your post so you don't get dinged for low content. See you 'round the forum!
Thanks, I think you delivered the point far better than I did.
That privilege stuff is really just a broad generalization. One that was enough to make me feel alienated enough that I didn't want to join/help/endorse the GSA in high school. Doesn't just go for the gay thing either, goes for a lot of things.
Everybody has problems. No one is born with acceptance on their back. Everyone feels alienated. Rich, poor, black, asian, whatever.
It's just one of those "Oh you think you got it hard?" blech. Doesn't bring people together, just drives them to be further segregated. Us vs Them. They couldn't possibly understand us and our problems, that line of thinking.
Feminism has a great concept called "the kyriarchy" (from the Greek word kyrios, meaning Lord or Master), which is a way to analyse our current society as a system of interlocking oppression. In it, one integrates racism, sexism, homophobia, classism and all the other -isms and -phobias as a network-like pyramid of oppression. What you're saying amounts to "the kyriarchy is okay because most of us are oppressed one way or another". And that's just tragic, really, because it's the best way to keep us all feeling feeling awful and keeping our society from improving.
Just because most of us are victims of the kyriarchy in one way or another doesn't mean that we should put each other down. It means we should help each other instead.
Zen Toombs: I laughed and laughed and laughed. You'll probably want to add a touch more to your post so you don't get dinged for low content. See you 'round the forum!
Thanks, I think you delivered the point far better than I did.
That privilege stuff is really just a broad generalization. One that was enough to make me feel alienated enough that I didn't want to join/help/endorse the GSA in high school. Doesn't just go for the gay thing either, goes for a lot of things.
Everybody has problems. No one is born with acceptance on their back. Everyone feels alienated. Rich, poor, black, asian, whatever.
It's just one of those "Oh you think you got it hard?" blech. Doesn't bring people together, just drives them to be further segregated. Us vs Them. They couldn't possibly understand us and our problems, that line of thinking.
Feminism has a great concept called "the kyriarchy" (from the Greek word kyrios, meaning Lord or Master), which is a way to analyse our current society as a system of interlocking oppression. In it, one integrates racism, sexism, homophobia, classism and all the other -isms and -phobias as a network-like pyramid of oppression. What you're saying amounts to "the kyriarchy is okay because most of us are oppressed one way or another". And that's just tragic, really, because it's the best way to keep us all feeling feeling awful and keeping our society from improving.
Just because most of us are victims of the kyriarchy in one way or another doesn't mean that we should put each other down. It means we should help each other instead.
Um, no not what I said at all. I didn't say it was okay at all. <.<
Abomination: The question being asked is still - why is this required?
And here is the answer: it isn't required. I have seen no mandate requiring it. This fulfills no needs.
Asking why it's required or needed misses the point of wants. IE: This is something some people want to do.
If it isn't required, if it isn't fulfilling some purpose then WHY is it happening at all?
There -must- be a reason and I'm trying to get to the bottom of it.
I hate to break it to you but there doesn't have to be any underlying reason or purpose for it. Some people just want this and apparently they find whatever exists now insufficient at fulfilling that want.
SaneAmongInsane: Um, no not what I said at all. I didn't say it was okay at all. <.<
Your problem with the discussion of privilege and your assertion that "everyone feels alienated" seemed to indicate that you did. My apologies if I misconstrued your intent.
OfficialJab: [quote="Kartoffelmos" post="6.397621.16238808"] Thing is, you don't get to decide how another person is supposed to interpret the words you use. If you say 'fa*' in front of a gay person and they feel upset about it, "I didn't mean 'gay'" is not a very good excuse.
I absolutely appreciate that you don't use it in front of strangers, but it's not hard to imagine that plenty of people will and have, even if they didn't mean 'gay'. To me, I find it pretty odd that some people think they can just detatch the word from its derogatory meaning with no issue whatsoever, obviously you know how the word has been widely used to put down gay people, so why not just use something else that doesn't have that context around it?
If you're having trouble comprehending how words like 'gay' and 'fag' can be used in the same way as, say, 'shit' and 'crap' without the user even thinking about homosexuality then consider that the word 'gay' used to mean happy or fun.
A words' meaning can change, and in the case of the word 'gay' it's changed twice. Another person made a good point about how british people call cigarrettes fags and we do - if we're feeling lazy. But fag can also mean a gay person in the UK.
I'm a closet bi and for years i've used the word 'gay' as a derogatory term with my friends that know me(but not my sexuality)and my anti-prejudice beliefs. It started off as a kind of 'fit-in' cover as i didn't want to come out and it just stuck and became a regular part of my repetoir. As i have become more accepting of my own sexuality i feel hypocrytical using those words and choose other derogatory terms instead. But i CAN understand how these words can be used without meaning any disrespect to gay people and when i hear them being used as derogatory terms by my friends i remind myself that they are just trying to fit in by parroting tropes, like I once did.
What i've realised is this; the danger of using tropes like 'gay' and 'fag' as derogatory terms is that it re-inforces in a lesbian, gay or bisexual persons' mind that there is something wrong with their sexuality. This happens regardless of intent or the viewpoints of the 'offender' because an assosiation forms in peoples' subconsious: If bad things = gay gay must = bad I'm/they're gay, I/they must be bad.
Even if the person using the word has nothing against gay people it can still do harm, so expand your vocaubulary and choose/invent a different word in the spirit of being the accepting, progressive people that you are.
Just in case anyone gives a monkey's; I'm a closet bi because I don't like the thought of defining myself by my sexuality and don't feel the need to 'confess' it to everyone; even to my closest friends. I only brought up my sexuality here because it's relevant to my arguments.
On topic I can understand why there is this devide - accepting people don't care about sexuality & on the assumption that everyone is as accepting as them they don't see why a gay person would need a gay-friendly convention.
Gay people know not everyone is accepting and want somewhere where they can appreciate their love of video games without fear of hate. Kind of how I and others enjoy the anonymity that the internet provides which allows someone to mention their sexuality without fear of reprisal. Sometimes being gay can be like wearing a mask that itches from time-to-time. To a gay person, A gay-friendly con is like a 'casual-clothes-friday' at work; where we do what we always do, but feel a bit more comfortable doing it.
My veiw on the issue is; it will all sort itself out eventually - things usually do.
I understand the need, in fact I've been tempted by going to Girl gamer events, but then there is always this little thought nagging at me in my head.
this is my point of view, not saying that these conventions are, bad, they fill a crucial need.
I'm a regular goer to gaming conventions, go with a few friends bring our gaming gear and just be gamers for a few days and meet other gamers, it's a lot of fun. but it so painfully obvious that I'm not the one being the target audience, like at all, and straight male interests are being put well above my interests.
this is because of the persistent idea that gaming is a male hobby. there is no lack of women on conventions anymore but as I said the idea persists.
and then comes the thought that maybe a convention focused on my kind of audience would be nice, which is probably true, but in my mind it is lazy and self defeating.
normal "cons" are mainly directed towards straight white men, but it's not called straight-white-male-gamer-con, so why should it be "straight-white-male-gamer-con"? mainly it is because "stright-white-male" is the norm and by definition normal, but the rest of us should considered be normal as well. What I want is not to make a special con for "the specials" but the specials should demand more space on the normal con.
and this is a work in progress, but we are far from there yet. so for me, having "special-cons" makes it valid to also not consider us the norm. "why should we give you space? you already have your own convention for that"
as I said, I understand the purpose, but it is just not for me.
PS. for people saying sexuality has nothing to do with conventions: seriously? have you even been at a convention? or the internet the past few months? I have these two words for you: booth babes, those usually aren't either gay or male, only there for the pleasure of the straight man.
Thanks, I couldn't have said it better myself.