The Big Picture: Stuperior

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Stuperior

MovieBob takes us into the controversy surrounding issue 700 of The Amazing Spiderman.

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meh, give it a year and this whole thing will blow over. Poor Spidey just gets hammered by Marvel fanboys that are now editors

I'm with Bob, Doc Ock as the new "Superior" Spider-man, is kinda interesting.

Huh... have to say, I don't understand the uproar either, it does sound like a temporary thing that could turn out pretty interesting if done well.

People are really pitching a fit over this? It sounds interesting to me. Do you think it's just fanboys holding One More Day over the writer?

Yeah I don't read comic books, but I bet this won't last long before they do the whole mental battle for control thing, Peter will win, and BAM, Peter Parker will be Spider-Man again. Either that or they'll contrive some other way to bring Peter back.

EDIT: You know what? I bet this is simply a case of "They changed it now it sucks."

Soooooo... he's not even really dead? What a rip-off!

Bob should do an episode about a comic that isn't weird...at all!

Wait, is there such a comic?

So overall you're not against the changed they did to the character and yet you named the episode title "Stuperior" (from the word stupid right)? I mean I assume you were against it base from the title.

My big problem with 700 was Doc Ock's sudden change of heart. I have no anger towards the body swap because you are right its a comic book and it is weird and over the top and the status quo will eventually go back the way it was. Its also a great way to open up new and interesting stories. What I don't like is that just a few issues ago we have Doc Ock trying to destroy the world so that he would be remembered or something along those lines. Now he is going to be a good guy to end all good guys? It just doesn't feel right. He also does the whole 180 in like the last five pages. I would have felt different about it if this had happened slowly over the three issue arc. But thats it. Its comics and weird shit happens, deal with it. Also the issue of Avenging Spiderman that went along with this issue really shows opportunity for great opportunities. Lets hope Superior can continue this.

First I heard it was the issue where Spider-Man dies... Which I think is stupid enough, because like EVERY superhero, they're just going to bring him back. Then I heard the thing about Doc Ock... Um... Okay, who comes up with this crap? Although the angle of having Doc Ock being a good guy is intriguing.

Didn't Spider-Man give birth to himself once?

Wow, Bob is the first person I've heard talk about Superior Spider-Man in a considered way, and not just as some whinging fanboy.

Thank you Bob.

And thank you for having actually read Slott's (excellent) run on ASM, I wish other people would. :)

I still think this is stupid. The plot concept is stupid then they made a new comic series which isn't a new comic series which will only put more people off reading comics out of this. The characters motivations flick back and forth like a light switch it is mind blowingly bad writing and a great way to turn potential readers away from the medium.

Weird shit happens in comics I get that but don't label a huge mind fuck as a number 1 and toss people just dipping their toes waste deep in it.

Caffeine_Bombed:
Didn't Spider-Man give birth to himself once?

Yes, it's hilariously stupid, just like this was. Poor Spidey has been subject to too many whinging fanboys who now abuse their status as Marvel writers

canadamus_prime:
Yeah I don't read comic books, but I bet this won't last long before they do the whole mental battle for control thing, Peter will win, and BAM, Peter Parker will be Spider-Man again. Either that or they'll contrive some other way to bring Peter back.

Thats why i dont get why the fans are being pissy. If it sucks they can retcon it and if it doesnt they can run with it.

Oh, also...

EDIT: You know what? I bet this is simply a case of "They changed it now it sucks."

Thats how you do it.

As a person interested in comics but by no means the money to collect them all,
I got really interested in this story line,

Any chance someone can mention what issue this arc supposedly starts in?
or what books to pick up?

I feel this might be a good point to get into The Amazing / Superior Spider-man now.

I have not problem when established things try and change the status quo. My ire only rises when it writing is bad. Slots last dozen issues were just bland at best and 698-700 were the most boring. I'm not gonna threaten to kill the man, it just think he's bad at his job. Now, Hawkeye by Matt Fraction. FUCKING GENIUS!
Side not, I re-read seven hundred with:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ljw8FMz17og

Playing in the back ground. Made the thing WAY more enjoyable.

wait Bob did you just say you like one more day? Ok you have to go to this site, http://www.spill.com/ or more accurate http://my.spill.com/profile/LEOGARCHIVE and listen to what day have to say.

Escapist forumgoers use the word "interesting" too much.

Sounds cool I guess, but if Parker is brought back just because his memories overtake his body again, will it really be Parker, or just Doc Ock still in Parker's body, but with a memory problem? Peter will remain dead, and his consciousness will be lost.

As someone who has never followed an American style comic consistently, I never understood how it was possible to care about what goes on in this kind continuity/status quo arrangement when everything that happens that matters/ is significant is generally bound to be undone or retconned out in a year. That kind of seems to undermine the entire point of this kind of infinite continuity if these stories are functionally separate in that they start and end at the same status quo.

I'm sick of listening to people whinge about how this plot twist is something they did not approve of and they are offended because they did not approve of it.

Marvel is planning to do this, "If Spider-Man were Batman" storyline for atleast a year, if not longer. It will not be permanent.

I'm aware of a lot of the twists an turns over the character over the years, even the time when he sold out and got a corporate sponsor, which led to the Spider Buggy creation. This one struck me as not a big freaking deal either.

At best it's a second act plot twist of a much longer plot. At worse, it's semi permanent and Spider-Man will have a Jeckyl and Hyde persona to deal with. Actually, that last one I want to see.

... whoa.

The actual big bad issue, Bob.

You missed it.

If most people are getting their panties in a twist over Spidey dying, that's fine.

The thing they should ACTUALLY be mad about?

ANYONE, INCLUDING AFOREMENTIONED REDHEADED CIPHER, HAVING A SEXUAL RELATIONSHIP WITH SPIDER-MAN.

Basically, Doc HAS to either tell his sexual partners he's actually a reformed supervillain in a superhero's body or else ANYTHING they do could be considered rape by fraud, a very serious, very real crime that he could very easily perpetrate if he's not careful. Heck, by some definition, ANYTHING he does, regardless of what he tells people, could be considered rape... OF PETER PARKER.

Again, I AGREE with you on the fact that this story has a lot of potential for good, twist-on-the-mythos storytelling. But Doc better keep the pistol in his holster or else Spidey comics are going to get VERY uncomfortable VERY quickly.

i have no issues with this.
however, one more day is terrible because what they wanted to achieve was simple, make spider-man single. and they picked the stupidest way to do it, especially considering how Mephisto before or since has never been powerful enough to do that. and the hilarity that almost literal gods are not able to heal a fucking bullet wound. and having Aunt May be the one in peril, it would have made a lot more sense if it was MJ who got shot and everyone else was on a coffee break.
oh and it was condescending to its audience.

Scarim Coral:
So overall you're not against the changed they did to the character and yet you named the episode title "Stuperior" (from the word stupid right)? I mean I assume you were against it base from the title.

Maybe he meant stupendous. :3

OT: Back in the day I read my fair share of comics and from what I recall, yeah, the plot as laid out for this one really doesn't seem like anything out of the ordinary for comics (Marvel in particular). And I'd say that Bob's prediction of "Eh, if it doesn't work out, they'll just say that Parkker's memories gained more of a foothold and ousted Doc Oc's thoughts, leaving Parker back in his own body and in the end absolutely nothing is different" is likely going to be very true.

Beyond that, between this episode and the three week dissertation on Super Girl, I think Bob should start up a (perhaps monthly) show just talking about comic books. :3

While I agree for the most part on the Doc Ock turn, I gotta disagree with "One More Day".

I don't hate "One More Day" because it's ridiculous, poorly-executed, and reeks of editorial mandate. I don't hate it because it results in a lot of mind-bogglingly stupid retcons that effectively give the finger to JMS's work on the series.

No, I hate "One More Day" because during JMS's run, I came to the realization that Spider-Man had been a kid for far too long. He needed to grow up and evolve. He needed to stop talking about responsibility and finally own up to it. And I was totally on board with this.

So when Peter is faced with mounting adversity from his friends and colleagues over the "Civil War" stuff, his beloved Aunt is knocking on Heaven's door, and his life as Peter Parker is thrown to the chopping block after revealing his identity, I thought this was the perfect opportunity for his character to finally hit a milestone.

When Mephisto showed up and offered him an easy way out for a (let's face it) meaningless price, I thought this would be the perfect moment for Peter to prove what the meaning of responsibility was. By rejecting Mephisto's offer not because it wasn't a good deal but because it meant running away from his problems for the sake of his own selfishness, it could have been probably one of the best moments in Spider-Man history. A defining moment.

But then, nope. Peter took the deal. All of his complications and problems? Swept away in an instant. All so that Spider-Man could go back to the way he used to be. He went back to living with Aunt May, his dead best friend came back, he was single, his new powers were gone, and we didn't get so much as a hint of regret from that supposed part of his soul that still remembered what he did.

The thing is... I related to Spider-Man in the events leading up to "One More Day" in a way that I hadn't since I was a kid. I could understand the struggles of responsibility and consequences that come with growing older. And it's not just that I can't relate to the younger, free-spirited Spider-Man or anything, it's just that I can't relate to a guy who, when faced with the problems of the real world that resulted from HIS choices and HIS mistakes, opts to sacrifice something that matters to him in order to cling onto simpler times that he should have grown past long before.

To me, "One More Day" felt like the story of a guy who married young, found out how hard it was, and then opted to get a divorce and move back home to live with his parents because those were the "good old days".

I can understand wanting to keep "Spider-Man" a character for young people to relate to, and I get that they couldn't have Peter retire and get replaced by a new kid because that rarely ever works out. But if they weren't going to have the balls to follow through on all these complications in Peter's life, then they shouldn't have bothered in the first place.

Actually Bob there is a shortage of Peter Parker in comics
Marvel has systematically killed, canceled, or replaced almost every Peter Parker except for Marvel adventures (children comic) and Disney's Ultimate Spider-man (comic based off TV show)

They remain the last Peter Parkers in Comics

As for games, I dunno it been like 2 years since one came out (excluding the movie tie in)

Its a stark contrast to the Ultimate Universe where while I think Ultimate Peter Parker didnt need to die, still went out in a culmination of what made him a hero.

Ultimate Peter went out with a bang. 616 peter went out with a whisper.
And can you be spider-man if your new origin is killing the previous one?

thanks Bob. I needed a Comci are Weird Episode today. I don't know why but i'm feeling over worked and depressed, this is my day off and i needed something good humored. So thank for the video. OT i don't really have an opinion either way. My opinion on twists tends to be similar to yours i'd imagine. if it gives us new and interesting stories i'm on board. If it doesn't they will retcon it.

Bob makes a point in the end: in the end, it's a geek fantasy where the stories we like are just as implausible as the ones we don't.

See also: The Incredible Hulk, who for the sake of the plot, can now suddenly control his rage without any explanation. Which doesn't matter, cause that shot was AWESOME.

Ranorak:
As a person interested in comics but by no means the money to collect them all,
I got really interested in this story line,

Any chance someone can mention what issue this arc supposedly starts in?
or what books to pick up?

I feel this might be a good point to get into The Amazing / Superior Spider-man now.

The arc starts at issue 698. Ignore issue #699.1 (not #699 itself because that's a different thing and actually is part of the story) as it's a prelude to an upcoming Morbius comic series.

My opinion is that this is terrible because Ock himself is an unlikable character to begin with (he was meant to be, so huzzah there) who attempted to mass murder 99.92% of the planet and now because he's suddenly had Peter's memories play through his head for maybe 10 seconds (literally) he's a good guy now and I'm meant to like him? No, he's still a complete asshole and the follow up in Avenging Spider-Man confirmed that. He's a colossal shitbag.

I've read pretty much every Spider-Man comic as well though and I have to say that the statement's regarding his deaths are an exaggeration. Yes, he's died before, but only in ways like in "The Other" (which was mentioned, the cocoon thing) where it was obvious that he wasn't dead because it was part of the story line (I don't think that part 4 or so out of a 12 part story is going to end early just to fuck with us).

I've read Slott's entire run as well and I agree that it's good, not the best thing I've ever read but I've had fun and that the story isn't too poorly written until the end where I felt it became fairly contrived and some of the dialogue from the start of the arc turned out to be a Red Herring (The stuff where Peter is wondering why he's willing to take the help of the villains in the break out and how he's meant to be the hero, etc). The biggest problem is that, especially in the follow up in Avenging Spider-Man #15.1, Ock still comes across as a monster who is treating others like garbage and using people. It's in character, but the character is someone who I want incarcerated and tortured, something which is rarely a desirable trait in these sorts of books, especially Spider-Man books.

Finally, with regards to continuity, yes, this will indeed be wiped out because it's a fucking horrible idea. But people say "It'll be retconned out, why do you care?" To which I say "Major retcons are stains that can't wash out". You listed off a few stupid things which have been retconned out, whilst true in a sense they still happened, The clone saga was a gigantic turd that ultimately amounted to nothing but it's still a big part of the character's history and character. It's like if you're watching a movie where a character is driving on an empty road to work, then suddenly gets beamed up into a UFO and anally probed before being sent back in time to the exact moment he was kidnapped with his memory wiped, only to have this never followed up on in the Movie. It ultimately does not affect the rest of the movie at all but as a whole it fucks things up from a story perspective, in the movie someone would go "why the fuck is this here?", in comics people just say "it's comics, deal with it or you're an idiot". Retcons are to be avoided unless absolutely necessary, not just thrown out there randomly, it's stupid crap like this that causes people to talk about how death in comics is meaningless, well this isn't helping! Avoiding major retcons such as what will come from this would over time maybe repair this reputation, make it so people will take it more seriously, get more involved, but if people just want to throw them around for no reason then that won't happen.

TheSchaef:
Bob makes a point in the end: in the end, it's a geek fantasy where the stories we like are just as implausible as the ones we don't.

See also: The Incredible Hulk, who for the sake of the plot, can now suddenly control his rage without any explanation. Which doesn't matter, cause that shot was AWESOME.

In the context of the movie it's kinda clear that he's managing to keep himself calm (thought people around him aren't sure and think he'll be set off by anything) from things that would anger others, him losing his shit on the Helicarrier is easily explained by extreme stress and panic/anxiety. It's also been shown in his own film (because yay for shared continuity) that Bruce can "guide" the Hulk's rage in a most basic way, sure the Hulk is still a complete idiot, but he's going to attack what he perceives as a threat (and when panicking he's going to lash out at most things, like people are known to do) or an important target. If Banner can control his emotions/anger well enough for this situation (people in real life are known to do this as well, except the Rage Monster part) then he could easily focus all his anger before transforming on the situation at hand and the Hulk, though stupid, is more than capable of differentiating allies (as he has in the past).

This is not a plot hole in any way.

Ranorak:
As a person interested in comics but by no means the money to collect them all,
I got really interested in this story line,

Any chance someone can mention what issue this arc supposedly starts in?
or what books to pick up?

I feel this might be a good point to get into The Amazing / Superior Spider-man now.

The arc starts at issue 698. Ignore issue #699.1 (not #699 itself because that's a different thing and actually is part of the story) as it's a prelude to an upcoming Morbius comic series.

My opinion is that this is terrible because Ock himself is an unlikable character to begin with (he was meant to be, so huzzah there) who attempted to mass murder 99.92% of the planet and now because he's suddenly had Peter's memories play through his head for maybe 10 seconds (literally) he's a good guy now and I'm meant to like him? No, he's still a complete asshole and the follow up in Avenging Spider-Man confirmed that. He's a colossal shitbag.

I've read pretty much every Spider-Man comic as well though and I have to say that the statement's regarding his deaths are an exaggeration. Yes, he's died before, but only in ways like in "The Other" (which was mentioned, the cocoon thing) where it was obvious that he wasn't dead because it was part of the story line (I don't think that part 4 or so out of a 12 part story is going to end early just to fuck with us).

I've read Slott's entire run as well and I agree that it's good, not the best thing I've ever read but I've had fun and that the story isn't too poorly written until the end where I felt it became fairly contrived and some of the dialogue from the start of the arc turned out to be a Red Herring (The stuff where Peter is wondering why he's willing to take the help of the villains in the break out and how he's meant to be the hero, etc). The biggest problem is that, especially in the follow up in Avenging Spider-Man #15.1, Ock still comes across as a monster who is treating others like garbage and using people. It's in character, but the character is someone who I want incarcerated and tortured, something which is rarely a desirable trait in these sorts of books, especially Spider-Man books.

Finally, with regards to continuity, yes, this will indeed be wiped out because it's a fucking horrible idea. But people say "It'll be retconned out, why do you care?" To which I say "Major retcons are stains that can't wash out". You listed off a few stupid things which have been retconned out, whilst true in a sense they still happened, The clone saga was a gigantic turd that ultimately amounted to nothing but it's still a big part of the character's history and character. It's like if you're watching a movie where a character is driving on an empty road to work, then suddenly gets beamed up into a UFO and anally probed before being sent back in time to the exact moment he was kidnapped with his memory wiped, only to have this never followed up on in the Movie. It ultimately does not affect the rest of the movie at all but as a whole it fucks things up from a story perspective, in the movie someone would go "why the fuck is this here?", in comics people just say "it's comics, deal with it or you're an idiot". Retcons are to be avoided unless absolutely necessary, not just thrown out there randomly, it's stupid crap like this that causes people to talk about how death in comics is meaningless, well this isn't helping! Avoiding major retcons such as what will come from this would over time maybe repair this reputation, make it so people will take it more seriously, get more involved, but if people just want to throw them around for no reason then that won't happen.[/quote]

zombie711:
Actually Bob there is a shortage of Peter Parker in comics
Marvel has systematically killed, canceled, or replaced almost every Peter Parker except for Marvel adventures (children comic) and Disney's Ultimate Spider-man (comic based off TV show)

They remain the last Peter Parkers in Comics

As for games, I dunno it been like 2 years since one came out (excluding the movie tie in)

Its a stark contrast to the Ultimate Universe where while I think Ultimate Peter Parker didnt need to die, still went out in a culmination of what made him a hero.

Ultimate Peter went out with a bang. 616 peter went out with a whisper.
And can you be spider-man if your new origin is killing the previous one?

Also this. Ultimate Spider-Man had one of the greatest and most fitting deaths imaginable and was in the end held as a hero by the entire city for what he did when he was just some kid in highschool. 616 dies after saving the entire world? He gets his body stolen by one of the greatest monsters who ever lives who will now go on to fuck the woman he loves (I never notice this sort of shit in media at all but I can't be the only one creeped out by the fact that he's living Peter's life and has decided to pursue MJ, that's like taking someone to bed then, you turn out the lights, get Osama to come into the room and fuck her without her consent and then leave before the lights come back on, this was incredibly disturbing, I know it most likely wasn't Slott's intent but this comes across so Rape-y to me and I've literally never once commented/complained on sexuality in comics, so yeah, this one stood out that much) and rob him of his life, no one even knows, he's left forgotten and unmourned.

Double Posts are bad kids. Triple Posts get you an Unwanted prison-lover named "Big Hank".

My problem is the idea that tragedy is all it takes to be a hero. Because the Doc experience Peter's loss and sadness, now he's a good guy? It's dead wrong. You don't need to have a tragic backstory to be a good hero (see: Booster Gold Pre-Flashpoint). It belittles the things that truly make a hero. Pain and loss have made supervillains far more often than they've made superheroes.

Baron_BJ:

TheSchaef:
Bob makes a point in the end: in the end, it's a geek fantasy where the stories we like are just as implausible as the ones we don't.

See also: The Incredible Hulk, who for the sake of the plot, can now suddenly control his rage without any explanation. Which doesn't matter, cause that shot was AWESOME.

In the context of the movie it's kinda clear yadda yadda on and on about how...

This is not a plot hole in any way.

I'm forced to wonder if there's a point in this reply where you stopped and watched the link in question, realizing that I am not the person who made this claim, and that even the people who made the video loved the movie and thought it was awesome.

leviadragon99:
Huh... have to say, I don't understand the uproar either, it does sound like a temporary thing that could turn out pretty interesting if done well.

Temporary in comics useually means a year minimum.
Ben Riley lasted a few years

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