Jimquisition: Accepting the Isms

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Even once you get around the issues raised by Jim, people fall back to the next like of defence: filling the comment section with "I didn't see anything wrong", "you're being over-sensitive" and "you're just looking to be offended" remarks. These aren't smart things to say, people. You're basically either admitting being oblivious, or simply dodging the issue by confronting the person instead of their argument. Neither are very convincing and there are better ways to tell someone they are wrong.

maninahat:
Even once you get around the issues raised by Jim, people fall back to the next like of defence: filling the comment section with "I didn't see anything wrong", "you're being over-sensitive" and "you're just looking to be offended" remarks. These aren't smart things to say, people. You're basically either admitting being oblivious, or simply dodging the issue by confronting the person instead of their argument. Neither are very convincing and there are better ways to tell someone they are wrong.

*sigh* I guess I could see the problems some people have with Tomb Raider. I highly disagree and I would be eager to explain and debate why I don't think it's sexist though.

So you mean instead of trying to destroy things we don't agree with, we should listen to the points people make, and then make our counterpoints until we both come to an impasse and make a compromise that both parties can agree on?

<_< Hmmmm.... :) Well I like it and I'll support it, but I don't know if such a strange new idea will gain popular support.

:D Good luck, and thank God for you Jim!

I think it depends, we should not always forgive a game for offensive material. If the offensive material is a core part of the game, for example DoA Extreme Beach Volleyball, which can be considered sexist and misogynistic and it's a core part of the game: we cannot take off the bouncing boobs and etc without virtually removing the whole game. I think that should be the rule of thumb: if removing offensive bits the game as a whole is still functional and engaging, it's acceptable.

Jimothy Sterling:

Calibanbutcher:

Jimothy Sterling:

Aww, you don't have to feel like compensating for missing the point of my video. :)

So Jim, all this talk about "compensating"...
Are you trying to tell us something?

Yes.

Instead of a penis, I have a really small talking car between my legs. It sings at night.

It's driving yur nuts!

erttheking:

maninahat:
Even once you get around the issues raised by Jim, people fall back to the next like of defence: filling the comment section with "I didn't see anything wrong", "you're being over-sensitive" and "you're just looking to be offended" remarks. These aren't smart things to say, people. You're basically either admitting being oblivious, or simply dodging the issue by confronting the person instead of their argument. Neither are very convincing and there are better ways to tell someone they are wrong.

*sigh* I guess I could see the problems some people have with Tomb Raider. I highly disagree and I would be eager to explain and debate why I don't think it's sexist though.

Please tell me in a civil and logic manner why Lara being a victim of rape, just so we as the player could try to "protect her" is not sexist?

If only this was possible actual conversations about sexism in general media could be had,but so far the conclusion is: most people are OK with it to a certain extent where it becomes uncomfortable. My example would be not killing Lady Boyle in Dishonored,maybe I should have just thrown her into the river,the investigation would have found out that she was just drunk :D
As for Hitman 4B0M1N4T10N nun trailer,while spectacular,it didn't appeal to me with the Saints, and I just find the Dead Island marketing stunt just to be distasteful.

Also Jim...this might interest you: http://tmblr.co/Zmo4ytby_kd-

I don't mind people not liking the games that I like, but I don't like it when people expect games to be politically correct and then making a fuss about it.

The reason for that is that due to a vocal minority making a fuss about a stereotypical character here or a sexist remark there, developers and publishers might actually decide to make their games as politically correct as possible. This very thought makes me puke in my mouth a little.

Also, if some people can't stand the possible backlash for pissing a lot of people off, they should reconsider doing that. People can and will make plenty of counter-arguments and/or make empty death threats.

As for that quest in Skyrim: I'm pretty sure that her secret was that she was practicing the Dibellan arts in secret - which means using men as a means to commune with the goddess Dibella without them knowing about it. This is considered inappropriate regardless of gender. She thinks that she'll get run out of town, but there's no way to know for sure if that'll happen, since you can only extort her or do nothing. No sexism, just a feminist trying to find sexism where there's none.

Source: http://uesp.net/wiki/Skyrim:Haelga

erttheking:

maninahat:
Even once you get around the issues raised by Jim, people fall back to the next like of defence: filling the comment section with "I didn't see anything wrong", "you're being over-sensitive" and "you're just looking to be offended" remarks. These aren't smart things to say, people. You're basically either admitting being oblivious, or simply dodging the issue by confronting the person instead of their argument. Neither are very convincing and there are better ways to tell someone they are wrong.

*sigh* I guess I could see the problems some people have with Tomb Raider. I highly disagree and I would be eager to explain and debate why I don't think it's sexist though.

That's all I ask for. If people can lay out their reasons for why something isn't [...]ist, then that's all well and good. It is far better to do that than to simply argue "I didn't see it so it isn't there" or "it's not sexist because you're an idiot".

It would not be so bad, if people wouldnt call out everything from here to the moon to be sexist, racist or what ever.
All these topics have reached the point of "The Boy Who Cried Wolf".

Whilst I agree with Jim in a general sense I must say Sophia's article seems a tad...contrived. One of her key arguments is that Skyrim lacks any decent female authority figures, which is patently untrue. I mean; the ruler of Skyrim is a woman (unless you're a stormcloak, but I've no time for sedition), the leader of the Blades and central main plot authority figure is a woman, the head of the Thalmor is a woman. That's not to mention all the women Sophia brought up and then summarily dismissed because she didn't like them very much.

Her argument seemed to hinge around the faction-members blithely stepping aside to make way for the player, but that's not exactly restricted by gender.

Aw, come on Jim, I call bullshit on the whole Shadow Hearts thing.
Gay humor? Yes, low brown and childish - and I had some laughs.
Homophobic? Come on, was there actually anything discriminating? Was there ever anyone who said that being gay was wrong? Anastasia Romanov even thought it was "cute" when Joachim Valentine and The Great Question were doing some... things... after the battle of a hundred stages (it's left ambiguous what is really going on).

And what's with that "trying to have sex with any and all men"-shtick? They're chasing Yuri, they're only into Yuri. That's part of the joke. The fact that there's always a shop available, even in the darkest dungeon, because the two cartoony over-the-top flamboyant homosexuals are stalking the main character.

So, yeah, they use homosexuality in their humor. You can call it silly, you can call it low brow, you can call it childish - and if you're a snob, you can even call it insulting. But I do believe calling it homophobic just isn't really correct.

Now look what you've you've done, I've started ranting.

People don't seem to be able to understand nuance.

If I like a game but I criticise one particular part of it, for example homophobic or sexist content or marketing, I'm likely not doing it because I hate the game or want to destroy it. I'm doing it because I enjoy the game and want it to improve.

If anything you should criticise the games you like more harshly, holding them up to a higher standard so that the things holding them back are worked upon for the future, making them even better.

And while you're all debatin', no matter which side you're on, there are some video game execs sitting in an office somewhere, raising a toast and exclaiming "Look at all this free publicity and shit!"

sorry, double post.

franksands:

erttheking:

maninahat:
Even once you get around the issues raised by Jim, people fall back to the next like of defence: filling the comment section with "I didn't see anything wrong", "you're being over-sensitive" and "you're just looking to be offended" remarks. These aren't smart things to say, people. You're basically either admitting being oblivious, or simply dodging the issue by confronting the person instead of their argument. Neither are very convincing and there are better ways to tell someone they are wrong.

*sigh* I guess I could see the problems some people have with Tomb Raider. I highly disagree and I would be eager to explain and debate why I don't think it's sexist though.

Please tell me in a civil and logic manner why Lara being a victim of rape, just so we as the player could try to "protect her" is not sexist?

It's how character motivation works in stories. In a high school setting you see people bullying "nerds" to establish who the bullies are and that you are suppose to dislike them.

And it wasn't rape, it was sexual assault (defined broadly).

predictable reply: oh but if she was a man she would just have got beat up not sexually assaulted

well done, you've proved the nasty pirate character in fact discriminates by gender. Perhaps we should have equal opportunity villians in all our games.

maninahat:

erttheking:

maninahat:
Even once you get around the issues raised by Jim, people fall back to the next like of defence: filling the comment section with "I didn't see anything wrong", "you're being over-sensitive" and "you're just looking to be offended" remarks. These aren't smart things to say, people. You're basically either admitting being oblivious, or simply dodging the issue by confronting the person instead of their argument. Neither are very convincing and there are better ways to tell someone they are wrong.

*sigh* I guess I could see the problems some people have with Tomb Raider. I highly disagree and I would be eager to explain and debate why I don't think it's sexist though.

That's all I ask for. If people can lay out their reasons for why something isn't [...]ist, then that's all well and good. It is far better to do that than to simply argue "I didn't see it so it isn't there" or "it's not sexist because you're an idiot".

If your argument is "it's distasteful" there's no need to reply an more logically than "it isn't".

If you have a logical argument why it is distasteful or immoral (something a lot of people are unable to give) then you can have a logical response.

Meh I don't care about sexism or other potentially hot button topics in games so long as it fits the setting. The witcher 2 was a good example of this for me.

Having sex with many men in a medieval high-fantasy?

franksands:

erttheking:

maninahat:
Even once you get around the issues raised by Jim, people fall back to the next like of defence: filling the comment section with "I didn't see anything wrong", "you're being over-sensitive" and "you're just looking to be offended" remarks. These aren't smart things to say, people. You're basically either admitting being oblivious, or simply dodging the issue by confronting the person instead of their argument. Neither are very convincing and there are better ways to tell someone they are wrong.

*sigh* I guess I could see the problems some people have with Tomb Raider. I highly disagree and I would be eager to explain and debate why I don't think it's sexist though.

Please tell me in a civil and logic manner why Lara being a victim of rape, just so we as the player could try to "protect her" is not sexist?

Very well. First of all, I do believe that that mindset of Lara being raped and us feeling a duty to protect her was a misconception caused by the viewpoint of one developer that clearly wasn't very bright, considering how the rest of the developers trounced over everything that he said.

Secondly, I have seen said scene and...well it's not really rape. It's molestation at the very worst.

It's from 2:20-2:30. It lasts all of ten seconds as Lara knees him in the groin then shoots him in the head. It's not pleasant, but it's not really rape.

Thirdly, Lara seems to be very competent, in the gameplay sections that we have been seeing, she mows down countless mooks, I think she can take care of herself

Combat starts at around 5:30

Really it feels like all of the cries of sexism are coming from what that one guy said.

Also, read the head writer's thoughts on the reboot.

http://www.escapistmagazine.com/articles/view/editorials/interviews/9968-The-Craft-Behind-Croft

maninahat:

erttheking:

maninahat:
Even once you get around the issues raised by Jim, people fall back to the next like of defence: filling the comment section with "I didn't see anything wrong", "you're being over-sensitive" and "you're just looking to be offended" remarks. These aren't smart things to say, people. You're basically either admitting being oblivious, or simply dodging the issue by confronting the person instead of their argument. Neither are very convincing and there are better ways to tell someone they are wrong.

*sigh* I guess I could see the problems some people have with Tomb Raider. I highly disagree and I would be eager to explain and debate why I don't think it's sexist though.

That's all I ask for. If people can lay out their reasons for why something isn't [...]ist, then that's all well and good. It is far better to do that than to simply argue "I didn't see it so it isn't there" or "it's not sexist because you're an idiot".

I already made a post explaining why. I'd rather not copy it out again because I included two videos and a link, ergo it's rather long. Please check it out.

franksands:

erttheking:

maninahat:
Even once you get around the issues raised by Jim, people fall back to the next like of defence: filling the comment section with "I didn't see anything wrong", "you're being over-sensitive" and "you're just looking to be offended" remarks. These aren't smart things to say, people. You're basically either admitting being oblivious, or simply dodging the issue by confronting the person instead of their argument. Neither are very convincing and there are better ways to tell someone they are wrong.

*sigh* I guess I could see the problems some people have with Tomb Raider. I highly disagree and I would be eager to explain and debate why I don't think it's sexist though.

Please tell me in a civil and logic manner why Lara being a victim of rape, just so we as the player could try to "protect her" is not sexist?

Well because to me gaming is all about protecting the character. Be it Laura or the hands holding the gun in the latest Call of Duty. So when he said that I felt that hey this is giving me more reason to want to protect her other than I need to for the win.

There is sexism, racism and "homophobia" in reality. The only thing people forget: nobody NEVER EVER was, is or ever will be equal. Women are "hard-wired" differently than men. Real (not media and environment enduced, which is a problem our time) homosexuals also are DIFFERENT, as in - how the brain and the body works.
Noone will ever ever ever ever be equal.
Off topic: DNF was pretty cool.

I find the minority of the Skyrim Modding community hilarious with regards to Isms.

There's a lot of scanty itemised female mods for Skyrim. It's embarrassing.
You know what some outraged Modders are doing? They making scanty itemised male mods for Skyrim. Because clearly that's not ironic. They also say they'll never do a female equivalent with such bitterness it's amusing.

I think everyone who plays video games and posts opinions on the internet have to study a Degree in The Arts. If the Course is a good one, you'll learn the skill of OBJECTIVE OBSERVATION. Because frankly, even the greatest artworks have flaws or is sexist. A lot of the 'masterpiece' nudes are actually just Posh-Porn Pin-Ups. You can appreciate/like a painting whilst still seeing the glaring flaws or problems with it.

minimacker:
Having sex with many men in a medieval high-fantasy?

This is what popped in my head when I saw this video.

I just find it weird how people start screaming "Sexism" just because they feel a bit uneasy.

"Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity." (Hanlon's Razor)
It's ok to find things tasteless, everyone has limits, but acting inconsiderate doesn't immediately turn you "sexist".

Still, it IS an important topic to talk about, and should be discussed reasonably.

What a crap in example department. Most "ism" outrages come from putting a label "sexism" on everything even remotely near to, I don't even know how to call it, "making a woman something bad-ish". Say, Skyrim! The quest mentioned in the overview. While gender equality in Tamriel is far from medieval and obviously much more progressive then in our modern world, you claim a usual blackmailing (which could as easily be applied to anyone who claims him or herself as monogamic) as a form of sexism. What a bullcrap! The game would be sexist if females OR males were obviously inferior to opposite sex in every way, or if the game would propagate such approach. Blaming in any form of sexism the game which depicts a fucking much more advanced in this aspect society is downright and plain stupid. As it comes to 80+% of such accusations.

Some of you people -game journalists and bloggers especially - seem to enjoy seeking for those -ism to point out your moral superiority and progressiveness. But it's nothing more than clowning.

thank FSM for jim.

wizzy555:
People don't seem to understand that not all stories are moral messages. Skyrim has a mission to abduct a priest into a cannibal cult and EAT him, this is not a "pro-cannibal" message. Like-wise the "slut-shaming" quest in skyrim is not "pro slut-shaming". Skyrim is a true RPG in that it gives you the option to be entirely unethical but lets you stop and do something else should you decide to.

Skyrim is a good example of one of the more gender equalised games on the market. The women (in the unmodded versions) are hardly sexualised and you find people of different genders in most professions.

BTW I'm not telling anyone to shut up, I'm disagreeing with you.

I always find that logical comments never get quoted while the more "troll-like" comments dictate the pace of discussions and normally derail the topic. I just wanted to quote you because I found your post to be quite logical and I would like to hear someone's counter-argument on this stance.

Consider this: what if the game knows about it's own whateverist content because it intentionally built that into the setting and is using that aspect of its setting to explore the issue in it's own way? I think it's a bad idea to attempt to make games so clean and free of anything that might be considered offensive or not politically correct, because then you're on the same page as the people who want to censor Huck Finn because of its racist content. These are issues that need addressing and exploring and we can't do that as long as we're avoiding the issue.

franksands:
Please tell me in a civil and logic manner why Lara being a victim of rape...

Please don't bring up "civil and logic[sic] manner" if you're going to attempt to start a discussion with a blatant falsehood. We can't have a civil and logical discussion if you're lying from the get-go.

Jim, I know that as an example of shining hope for humanity, you assume better of people than I do, but I think it's important to accept that racism, sexism and homophobia are rampant in gamers. While it may be some people are afraid their pastimes will be taken away, but there are a lot of people who will actively harass and discriminate based on race, genitals, or whose genitals you are attracted to.

I'm not sure of the actual ratio, but I would certainly call this a major reason people try and shut down debate on sexism and the like. Remember, we have guys who think it's okay to sniff their teammates and be basic creepers or worse.

Women harassed at cons tend to get the whole "she was asking for it!" treatment, and there are numerous reports of security being crap at these events. People ask why gays feel they need a safe space, but I'm surprised any woman dares show up at cons these days at all either.

No, it's easier to say the person who is bringing it up is a bad person, because the character of the actual gamer is quite often at issue.

Calibanbutcher:
So, you are telling me that no-one wants to take my games away from me?
Can I finally come out of the basement then?
Or will all these "isms" suddenly unfold and steal my library?

It's a trap! Jim is working with the isms! In fact, you can't spell "Jimquisition" without ISM!

I am, whoever, a bit weary of people crying out that "OMG EVERYTHING NEEDS TO CHANGE SO NOTHING EVER IS OFFENSIVE EVER AGAIN ANYMORE", because if we go that far, we will be sitting in front of blank screens, lest we offend the colour-blind who can't play, listening to nothing, so as not to offend the deaf.

Okay, who the hell is actually saying that? Seriously.

Jimothy Sterling:

I would argue that trying to bury those little things, hiding them, and acting sensitive whenever they're brought up can only HELP those trying to undermine it. Accepting them, and using them as jumping points for rational and provocative discussion, will only solidify gaming's status.

Indeed, denying the existence just makes us look...Well, bad. It could be bad for a bunch of reasons; we could be childish, stupid, naive, combative/petulant, addicted or any of a number of other states. It comes off as "LALALALALALALALA! I CAN'T HEAR YOU!"

Though gamers can hear the criticism, and take it poorly.

Regarding that torse; if that had been a male torso, there would have been no problem whatsoever. That strikes me as sexist too, but hey, aslong as its only males getting horribly murdered it's all cool right?

What I mean is, what gets me with all the honking about sexism is that no one ever gives any time to the idea that maybe, just maybe, sexism goes both ways. Just think about how many males you kill playing through cod, and I think no females.

Just saying there's two sides of every coin, and Im fucking tired of one side being portrayed as the good defenders of morality and divine wisdom, while just voicing that "hey, maybe you aren't the only victims, just maybe" gets you branded as a mysoginist.

Which I am sure to be for this.

RJ Dalton:
Consider this: what if the game knows about it's own whateverist content because it intentionally built that into the setting and is using that aspect of its setting to explore the issue in it's own way? I think it's a bad idea to attempt to make games so clean and free of anything that might be considered offensive or not politically correct, because then you're on the same page as the people who want to censor Huck Finn because of its racist content. These are issues that need addressing and exploring and we can't do that as long as we're avoiding the issue.

Of course, nobody here is talking about making games free and clear of all offensive content. Except the people clubbing that strawman into the ground. Similarly, the only people who seem to bring up "political correctness" are the ones trying to demonise it.

On that note, we really don't have games that equate to Huck Finn in terms of actual content. When a game is racist, it's generally just racist. And you know the funny thing? The people who bring it up most are gamers, the same gamers who don't call for the banning of such games.

bunji:
aslong as its only males getting horribly murdered it's all cool right?

Will the males be wearing bikinis and have implant-augmented tits shoved in them? Because then you might have a fair comparison.

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