Jimquisition: Accepting the Isms

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m19:

JudgeGame:

I have a hard time convincing myself this question even deserves an answer.
image

The entire zombie genre dehumanizes people. Literally. It's horror, it's kind of the point. If you think all but a very few men actually get off on this then maybe you are the sick one.

Intent is important.

Bravo. Then tell me, what is the intent of the large breasts?

erttheking:

Very well. First of all, I do believe that that mindset of Lara being raped and us feeling a duty to protect her was a misconception caused by the viewpoint of one developer that clearly wasn't very bright, considering how the rest of the developers trounced over everything that he said.

I didn't know other developers had spoken and they were against this, glad to see this was the ramblings of one person. It is still pretty bad that he spoke for the game at one point.

erttheking:

Secondly, I have seen said scene and...well it's not really rape. It's molestation at the very worst.

It's from 2:20-2:30. It lasts all of ten seconds as Lara knees him in the groin then shoots him in the head. It's not pleasant, but it's not really rape.

From what can be seen in this trailer it does look more like sexual assault and she repels the attacker. But still, I have to ask is this the only way to make us care about the character? Since this version of Lara is not the ridiculous version of the past, with gravity defying boobs and playboy poses, couldn't they find other ways that we saw how difficult her journey is? Must it always be sexual?
I have to stand corrected and will stop using this as an example of sexism and exploitation, but I still think it looks like they could think of something better than just having her assaulted.

erttheking:

Thirdly, Lara seems to be very competent, in the gameplay sections that we have been seeing, she mows down countless mooks, I think she can take care of herself

Combat starts at around 5:30

Well, if she's so competent, why was she captured? I guess we can only answer this after playing the game.

erttheking:

Really it feels like all of the cries of sexism are coming from what that one guy said.

Also, read the head writer's thoughts on the reboot.

http://www.escapistmagazine.com/articles/view/editorials/interviews/9968-The-Craft-Behind-Croft

This really sheds some light on the subject, thanks. I'm really looking forward to this game, I'm just afraid they went too quickly to the T&A option in some parts of it.

Hagi:

JudgeGame:

Hagi:

They put make-up on to look attractive. That does not automatically make it sexual.

Not everything considered feminine is sexual. That's your misunderstanding.

I have no idea what you define as attractive. This is highly amusing to me. I'm also curious about your sexual orientation if you don't mind me asking.

Attractive is aesthetically pleasing.

A waterfall can be attractive. An abstract statue can be attractive. A man can be attractive. A woman can be attractive.

Sexualized means, to me, arousing.

As I'm personally straight I've thus far only found women to be arousing.

So you are in fact attracted to men?

(This assumes the majority of people silencing others are American or British)
This is a sociological issue. American and British culture, compared to other cultures is highly individualist. The "Free Market" and fighting among brands has created a culture based around competition and distrust of things that are different.

When someone has a problem, the people bred with individualism and brand loyalty instantly get defensive for 2 reasons, first, they didn't personally find X thing offensive, so selfishly they declare X is not offensive. Anyone who finds X offensive is a potential enemy and threat to X, so that's why they silence the competition.

The contrary point, finding everything upsetting and offensive is a creation of Hugboxes, mostly on the Internet and best exemplified by Tumblr SJ and Fandom culture. This pampers people into believing X thing is wrong if they didn't like it a 100% or when they interpret it wrong, and while rarely they want X censored or removed they should understand that they may be attacking is not as serious as it is or may even not exist at all. Case in point, people attacking ATLUS for P4's Naoto when it was revealed she was not a trans* character, and how dare ATLUS not make her trans*, well she never was intended to be that.

Strangely enough, most silencers on the Internet have both of these aspects.
This is known as being a narrow-minded prick fanboy.

JudgeGame:

Hagi:

JudgeGame:

I have no idea what you define as attractive. This is highly amusing to me. I'm also curious about your sexual orientation if you don't mind me asking.

Attractive is aesthetically pleasing.

A waterfall can be attractive. An abstract statue can be attractive. A man can be attractive. A woman can be attractive.

Sexualized means, to me, arousing.

As I'm personally straight I've thus far only found women to be arousing.

So you are in fact attracted to men?

Sure, I find some men attractive. Their looks can make me feel at ease and comfortable. I consider that an attractive quality.

JudgeGame:

Bravo. Then tell me, what is the intent of the large breasts?

The intent is the contrast between sex appeal and the horror twist provided. You cannot define it by just the boobs. It is not a sexual fantasy because it's telling you, "Hey something is wrong with this picture!"

wizzy555:

JudgeGame:

Hagi:

They put make-up on to look attractive. That does not automatically make it sexual.

Not everything considered feminine is sexual. That's your misunderstanding.

I have no idea what you define as attractive. This is highly amusing to me. I'm also curious about your sexual orientation if you don't mind me asking.

I have no idea how you define sexualised. Personally I find huge phallus shaped things to be sexual in which case the ponies aren't sexual

(see anyone can play that game)

Listen, I know a lot of girls that freaked out the first time they saw a dick and that doesn't make them lesbians if you know what I mean.

erttheking:
To be perfectly honest I think this website in general has made me more paranoid in general. I don't want to talk about racism sexism or homophobia in video games, Hell, I'm starting to reach the point where I don't want to talk about ANYTHING in video games because this website can be rather volatile. And I defended the Tomb Raider reboot, I didn't think that it was sexist, and I did jump on the Hitman trailer, because I did think that that was sexist. I have opinions I guess I'm just tired of massive flame filled debates that seem to go nowhere. I'm really starting to think that's all that goes on here.

I admit it can be rough, from time to time thus people get carried away- but do not worry my friend, there are civil and reasonable people within The Escapist, more so the before in my opinion. You just have to look in the right places :} but I am sorry you've been flamed for your opinions. If you ever wish to discuss or request help with something, do hit me up. I like helping and befriending people, it's just my thing.

OT: There are things I really dislike in games I love. You can't defend a game and say it's flawless, for nothing is perfect. It can be close to perfect, but I doubt it'd satisfy and please every human being who plays it. Along that, yeah I agree fully Jim we shouldn't be so riled up when someone criticizes a game for having an element of say racism, sexism, or anything bad.

If a game has rape in it... more likely then 97% of the time I am going to say that was totally uncalled for and doesn't give any real significance in a game other then to 'shock' or 'disturb' you in a way that's not very tasteful. Just my opinion however, if they can really pull off the rape scene with importance and reason, I can consider tolerating it but again, I never tolerate rape. Just a gripe I have, along with killing kittens. But apart from all that, everything has it's pros and cons and I will take you seriously if you are honest about a review.

JudgeGame:

xPixelatedx:
I still stand by the collectors edition of Dead Island being offensive, but ok. It's a dismembered torso wearing the flag of the country it's being released in... I am pretty sure their goal was to be offensive, regardless of any apology they may have made. But it's merchandise for a zombie game, so I'd expect it to be something horrible.

That isn't actually a defense. It actually makes it worse, doesn't it?

What M19 said:

m19:

The entire zombie genre dehumanizes people. Literally. It's horror, it's kind of the point.

Exactly! This isn't Mario... Horror is supposed to be horrible. Do you know how many 'offensive' things I've seen on the Walking Dead TV show? But they were supposed to be offensive. Horror isn't there to elicit feelings of goodwill and comfort, if it does then it's failed the genre. Considering how campy, over-the-top and silly the zombie side of the horror genre can get. A mutilated torso in a bikini is exactly on par with what I would expect from it; whether it be a product from a game, movie or just a novelty in Spenser's Gifts at the mall.

Saying that someone does not see an issue in something does not necessary translate into stating that there is no issue at all, as Jim painfully points out.

It is a matter of that person's opinion that they are not offended by the "ism" on hand, however, they might have not spent breath or ink in acknowledging that said "ism" may be offensive to others.

If we go that path, then everything we say must be accompanied by some sort of disclaimer: "hey, I love avocadoes, but I recognise that their cold slimyness may be insulting to someone else's tastebuds"; that is a ridiculous situation and one that oversimplifies that person's intent and strips it off the other elements. On the internet we may need to take things at face value, if someone does not see a problem with a female zombie torso he must have a problem acknowledging social "isms", but that is plain wrong in real life.

For the record, I do not see a problem with said zombie torso, large tits or no, I have never played Dead Island and I don't think I ever will, but that does not preclude my ability to recognise that the torso may offend people (for whatever reason they might find offensive) and that does not make me a douchebag.

Mr Cwtchy:
That Skyrim example is a bit crap. Firstly because the game itself never states that a woman having sex with different men consecutively is wrong, secondly because the quest is given to you by a woman seeking to embarrass another into easing up on her in terms of workload rather than believing what she's doing to be wrong. Your point was solid, just conversely saying that being offended by something in a game, while fine in itself, does not inherently mean the problem is with the game.

You could construct a anti-religion thing here somewhere, since she was simply following her beliefs in Dibella. If one really wanted to, that is. :)

I think there's another cravat to this discussion which people forget: Developers are people too.

Developers, like everybody else, make mistakes. They screw up.

They put a slut-shaming side-quest in their game.

They use the titillation of beating up kinky nuns for promotion.

They allow their strong, independent female heroine to be threatened with rape.

They package their special edition with a lump of plastic with breasts attached.

...

And you know what? That's perfectly okay, so long as they acknowledge the mistake, apologize and, most importantly, don't do it again. Just because a developer includes questionable content, doesn't mean that they support it's contextualization, nor does it mean the rest of the game is rife with the -ism.

We've bred this all-or-nothing-culture: If we're not defending a developer with our very last breath, were sending them death threats and bombing all of their efforts on Metacritic. Why? To what end is this exactly?

Like Jim said in the video, no middle ground. No ability to recognize where a game has merits, no realization of where it has flaws. It's either the patron saint of video games, or it's the digital holocaust.

Herd mentality. That's all I have to say.

It seems I've been successfully avoiding bad sites, because no matter where I look, these ism's are always pointed out and discussed to their fullest. The gaming industry does seem to address these issues properly, with only a vocal minority screaming murder and denying everything.

SecsNoises:

They allow their strong, independent female heroine to be threatened with rape.

Not a mistake when looked at while keeping in mind the right context and not really sexist either. Emphasizing that the event shaped an already existing (although already extremely sexist) female heroine and spouting nonsense like "You're going to want to protect her" is where the sexism popped up and this influenced the view of that scene. The rest of the list you mentioned is just full-blown sexist though.

xPixelatedx:

JudgeGame:

xPixelatedx:
I still stand by the collectors edition of Dead Island being offensive, but ok. It's a dismembered torso wearing the flag of the country it's being released in... I am pretty sure their goal was to be offensive, regardless of any apology they may have made. But it's merchandise for a zombie game, so I'd expect it to be something horrible.

That isn't actually a defense. It actually makes it worse, doesn't it?

What M19 said:

m19:

The entire zombie genre dehumanizes people. Literally. It's horror, it's kind of the point.

Exactly! This isn't Mario... Horror is supposed to be horrible. Do you know how many 'offensive' things I've seen on the Walking Dead TV show? But they were supposed to be offensive. Horror isn't there to elicit feelings of goodwill and comfort, if it does then it's failed the genre.

It's not challenging to offend someone. It doesn't take any skill or cunning, pretty much anyone could do it if they wanted to. Just because it's someone's intention to offend doesn't make it a worthy goal. You can't defend something merely on the grounds that "that's what they intended to do". A racist certainly intends to offend people when he shouts slurs.
It's not Mario, but then again, it ain't exactly the MoMA either. Some of the issues being raised with these debates are very touchy, but they are being tackled with very little tact, insight or thought. You can't defend the torso on grounds such as "it's challenging our sensibilities" like it's something by Damien Hirst. It's not like Triumph of the Will or Birth of a Nation, where you can distance yourself from the message and admire the skill that went into producing them.

Compare and contrast it with Silent Hill 2, which featured the sexy nurses. Noone is complaining about them. Why? Because they are important if you consider their role within the context of the game. They have a good reason to be there, the game would be lesser without them. I don't think anyone was offended by them, because they weren't there for titillation or meaningless shock tactics.
Horror is meant to unsettle us, but there is no reason that we need to alienate a particular group of people while doing so.

wizzy555:
The writers say this is the culture in skyrim, so apparently it is.

That's funny, because I made this game about a planet called Msicar with two races. One is dark-skinned, really likes KFC and is made to work in the cott- space fluff fields by the other.

The other race all have really big noses, are obsessed with money and say 'Oy' a lot.

If anybody complains, I'll just tell them it's part of the culture of Msicar and therefore must be alright. Honestly, I don't see why that would be offensive.

GAunderrated:

wizzy555:
People don't seem to understand that not all stories are moral messages. Skyrim has a mission to abduct a priest into a cannibal cult and EAT him, this is not a "pro-cannibal" message. Like-wise the "slut-shaming" quest in skyrim is not "pro slut-shaming". Skyrim is a true RPG in that it gives you the option to be entirely unethical but lets you stop and do something else should you decide to.

Skyrim is a good example of one of the more gender equalised games on the market. The women (in the unmodded versions) are hardly sexualised and you find people of different genders in most professions.

BTW I'm not telling anyone to shut up, I'm disagreeing with you.

I always find that logical comments never get quoted while the more "troll-like" comments dictate the pace of discussions and normally derail the topic. I just wanted to quote you because I found your post to be quite logical and I would like to hear someone's counter-argument on this stance.

It is quite a logical one, and here is an argument!

Skyrim sells itself as an RPG, which is to say, it sells itself on giving the player choices for their character. Unfortunately, for a lot of the quests, there aren't actual choices. You just get railroaded from beginning to end, and often the only choice is to either keep following the quest or stop and get no reward. Not doing the quests might as well be the same as not playing the game.

I can't help but think that these are the same guys who made a Fallout game, who managed to cater to a whole range of play styles, opinions and character choices. If this were Fallout, or indeed a well written RPG, we'd get a choice to condemn the slut shaming and cannibalism (and get rewarded for it). Whether it was simply too much effort to provide branching dialogue, or just a refusal to be too much like Fallout, the result is a role playing game which lets you choose how you dress and fight, but forces you to be one kind of person; a hero of the people, but also kind of a prejudiced dick.

m19:

JudgeGame:

Bravo. Then tell me, what is the intent of the large breasts?

The intent is the contrast between sex appeal and the horror twist provided. You cannot define it by just the boobs. It is not a sexual fantasy because it's telling you, "Hey something is wrong with this picture!"

So we've established it has sex appeal.

Is it that much of a logical stretch to see the relation between sex appeal and violence against a female body and notice the symbolic association with sexual violence against women. You know, that thing that is talked about on the news and is a serious problem in practically every country on the planet.

Like Jim said, I just refuse to believe anybody with human intelligence and not completely ignorant of society could fail to understand why, to people who care about violence against women, this is pretty offensive, in bad taste and morally horrifying.

And really, you don't even have to look at it from the female perspective. If instead of a woman's tits, it were an erect cock, bloodied at the base, a lot of people would find that really offensive and they would feel scared of anybody who bought that, and in that list of people who would be offended would be me.

mjc0961:
Agree so much with the end of the video about how you can talk about a part of a game being shitty without calling the entire game shit. Not just about the isms, but about ANYTHING. Point out that any game isn't perfect even though you really like it, and there's always a legion of fanboys waiting to pounce on you with the tired old bullshit "Go back to CoD" or the like. Example, I really like my PS3, but Sony and many aspects about the PS3 are far far FAR from perfect. Call out the things that should be improved though (for example, the new Playstation Store is an abomination, a complete downgrade from the previous store in every way. the store itself has its own patches like games do now, the load times are horrendous, and the store is organized so poorly that the specific games section is filled with avatars and going to the "new this week" section doesn't show you everything that came out this week just to name a couple of massive problems that piss me off every time I go on there), and all the Sony fanboys care to say is "get the fuck out here you 360 fanboy". Because, you know, anyone who points out anything wrong with the PS3 can only be an evil 360 lover out to make the PS3 look bad. I hate fanboys so much.

erttheking:
I just want to talk about video games without shouting and without saying what I hate about them every once in awhile.

Then why did you come to a thread for a video that's saying it's okay to talk about when games do something wrong? In fact, you're not even discussing the video at all. You're just pointlessly derailing the thread, which is another thing the people of this forum do far too often.

I was speaking my mind on the situation. I'm not going to apologize for that.

the Dept of Science:

xPixelatedx:

JudgeGame:

That isn't actually a defense. It actually makes it worse, doesn't it?

What M19 said:

m19:

The entire zombie genre dehumanizes people. Literally. It's horror, it's kind of the point.

Exactly! This isn't Mario... Horror is supposed to be horrible. Do you know how many 'offensive' things I've seen on the Walking Dead TV show? But they were supposed to be offensive. Horror isn't there to elicit feelings of goodwill and comfort, if it does then it's failed the genre.

It's not challenging to offend someone. It doesn't take any skill or cunning, pretty much anyone could do it if they wanted to. Just because it's someone's intention to offend doesn't make it a worthy goal. You can't defend something merely on the grounds that "that's what they intended to do". A racist certainly intends to offend people when he shouts slurs.
It's not Mario, but then again, it ain't exactly the MoMA either. Some of the issues being raised with these debates are very touchy, but they are being tackled with very little tact, insight or thought. You can't defend the torso on grounds such as "it's challenging our sensibilities" like it's something by Damien Hirst. It's not like Triumph of the Will or Birth of a Nation, where you can distance yourself from the message and admire the skill that went into producing them.

Compare and contrast it with Silent Hill 2, which featured the sexy nurses. Noone is complaining about them. Why? Because they are important if you consider their role within the context of the game. They have a good reason to be there, the game would be lesser without them. I don't think anyone was offended by them, because they weren't there for titillation or meaningless shock tactics.
Horror is meant to unsettle us, but there is no reason that we need to alienate a particular group of people while doing so.

Agreed. And it is not at all a coincidence that the whole theme of the game is

SecsNoises:

That's funny, because I made this game about a planet called Msicar with two races. One is dark-skinned, really likes KFC and is made to work in the cott- space fluff fields by the other.

The other race all have really big noses, are obsessed with money and say 'Oy' a lot.

If anybody complains, I'll just tell them it's part of the culture of Msicar and therefore must be alright. Honestly, I don't see why that would be offensive.

Oh please, that's absurd.

Skyrim is partly based on a pseudo-viking-medieval society, brace yourself because you're in for a shock, women didn't have much of the equal rights in neither a Viking nor a medieval society. Is it that hard to imagine that a fantasy land has some of the same things as the psuedo-fantasy land of the sort.

Second, your example is an obvious play to stereotypes, whose intent it is to offend. Who seriously is offended that, [i]Oh Dear! Promiscious women aren't looked upped at![i]. The game doesn't even state that sleeping with many people is wrong, or that the fictional woman in question was wrong.

Hagi:

JudgeGame:

Hagi:

Attractive is aesthetically pleasing.

A waterfall can be attractive. An abstract statue can be attractive. A man can be attractive. A woman can be attractive.

Sexualized means, to me, arousing.

As I'm personally straight I've thus far only found women to be arousing.

So you are in fact attracted to men?

Sure, I find some men attractive. Their looks can make me feel at ease and comfortable. I consider that an attractive quality.

I'm happy for you.

Devin Barker:
i am somehow blissfully ignorent of the problems with earthworm jims creator... any one have a link to anything i can read up on?

I don't have a link, but the skinny is that Doug TenNapel has a career as a far right wing media pundit and radio personality. As such, he makes no secret of his views on many of the familiar, controversial issues de jour. It doesn't stop him making good games though. In fact, in some ways, it has helped his games; The Neverhood, for instance, is a brilliant, unique title that is largely inspired by bible stories and his religious upbringing.

JudgeGame:

I don't think anybody has ever argued the ponies aren't sexualized. They are given giant eyes, exagerated eyelashes

Last time I checked, those are traits associated with youth and innocence in cartoons.

See: Most Disney movies.

and quaint, feminine gestures.

I hate to break it to you, but I've yet to meet a Brony who has ever thought "corrrr, I'm going to clop myself sore to those quaint feminine gestures".

The problem isn't within the intention of the animators and writers, but rather your own perception of a children's cartoon.

Honestly a major part of why I simply don't give a shit about the "isms" is due to what I've heard called the "colonialism syndrome" or sometimes the "Holocaust syndrome". Growing up I was exposed to a good decade and a bit of "education" by teachers who wouldn't understand history if it kicked them in the genitals, and after a while pretty much everyone got so utterly sick of hearing about how "evil" their ancestors were for what they did to the Indigenous Australians that they simply stopped caring about the issue completely and embraced apathy, and in some extreme cases actually did a complete 180 and started being actively racist.

You can only bang on about something, no matter how important the topic is, so long before people get utterly sick to death of hearing about it and just want people to STFU. Yes there are problems in the gaming industry, yes colonialism was bad, yes the Holocaust was evil, but if you keep banging that drum without break for long enough otherwise reasonable people will simply tune you out... or worse start opposing you out of sheer spite.

You need to be careful when it comes to "preaching" or you'll do more harm then good... just look at PETA, the organisation that has done more harm to Animal Welfare then Cruella De Vil!

Separately to that, there is also the siege mentality infecting the gaming sub-culture, we've been under attack for so long by so many different groups that any perceived attack is reacted too with extreme negativity. And you know what? That's okay. We've got the freaking NRA attacking us at the moment! We've got Fox News, CNN, and the loony right banging on about how we destroy morality, we need to be watchful, we need to police ourselves, lest we give those turds more ammunition. Unfortunately this leads to the "traitor" mentality, where if a member of the gaming subculture starts looking at things, no matter how reasonable, they are seen as aiding the enemy, giving them a crack in the wall to exploit.

Those people actually do want to take away our games.

You can bring up what you think are real issues all you want, but you should consider if it really matters, and if it does, how you can you make the point without attacking the entire subculture, without appearing like a smug self satisfied git.

maninahat:

GAunderrated:

wizzy555:
People don't seem to understand that not all stories are moral messages. Skyrim has a mission to abduct a priest into a cannibal cult and EAT him, this is not a "pro-cannibal" message. Like-wise the "slut-shaming" quest in skyrim is not "pro slut-shaming". Skyrim is a true RPG in that it gives you the option to be entirely unethical but lets you stop and do something else should you decide to.

Skyrim is a good example of one of the more gender equalised games on the market. The women (in the unmodded versions) are hardly sexualised and you find people of different genders in most professions.

BTW I'm not telling anyone to shut up, I'm disagreeing with you.

I always find that logical comments never get quoted while the more "troll-like" comments dictate the pace of discussions and normally derail the topic. I just wanted to quote you because I found your post to be quite logical and I would like to hear someone's counter-argument on this stance.

It is quite a logical one, and here is an argument!

Skyrim sells itself as an RPG, which is to say, it sells itself on giving the player choices for their character. Unfortunately, for a lot of the quests, there aren't actual choices. You just get railroaded from beginning to end, and often the only choice is to either keep following the quest or stop and get no reward. Not doing the quests might as well be the same as not playing the game.

I can't help but think that these are the same guys who made a Fallout game, who managed to cater to a whole range of play styles, opinions and character choices. If this were Fallout, or indeed a well written RPG, we'd get a choice to condemn the slut shaming and cannibalism (and get rewarded for it). Whether it was simply too much effort to provide branching dialogue, or just a refusal to be too much like Fallout, the result is a role playing game which lets you choose how you dress and fight, but forces you to be one kind of person; a hero of the people, but also kind of a prejudiced dick.

That's only a partial reply, even if the game is railroaded you don't have to interpret it as a moral message. Further more the slut shaming is part of the thieves guild quest which asks you do to a number of morally questionable things. Your choice is not to be in the thieves guild.

How about you explain starting from predicates why it is sexist to begin with, instead of picking at minor points.

PS: "It offends me isn't an answer"

I'm pretty oblivious when it comes to sexism, classism, or anything except the overt like racism or homophobia

I don't mean to be, but it never comes up on my radar.
That said, on the other side of this obliviousness, I rarely know when someone is flirting with me unless it's overt.

franksands:

erttheking:

Very well. First of all, I do believe that that mindset of Lara being raped and us feeling a duty to protect her was a misconception caused by the viewpoint of one developer that clearly wasn't very bright, considering how the rest of the developers trounced over everything that he said.

I didn't know other developers had spoken and they were against this, glad to see this was the ramblings of one person. It is still pretty bad that he spoke for the game at one point.

erttheking:

Secondly, I have seen said scene and...well it's not really rape. It's molestation at the very worst.

It's from 2:20-2:30. It lasts all of ten seconds as Lara knees him in the groin then shoots him in the head. It's not pleasant, but it's not really rape.

From what can be seen in this trailer it does look more like sexual assault and she repels the attacker. But still, I have to ask is this the only way to make us care about the character? Since this version of Lara is not the ridiculous version of the past, with gravity defying boobs and playboy poses, couldn't they find other ways that we saw how difficult her journey is? Must it always be sexual?
I have to stand corrected and will stop using this as an example of sexism and exploitation, but I still think it looks like they could think of something better than just having her assaulted.

erttheking:

Thirdly, Lara seems to be very competent, in the gameplay sections that we have been seeing, she mows down countless mooks, I think she can take care of herself

Combat starts at around 5:30

Well, if she's so competent, why was she captured? I guess we can only answer this after playing the game.

erttheking:

Really it feels like all of the cries of sexism are coming from what that one guy said.

Also, read the head writer's thoughts on the reboot.

http://www.escapistmagazine.com/articles/view/editorials/interviews/9968-The-Craft-Behind-Croft

This really sheds some light on the subject, thanks. I'm really looking forward to this game, I'm just afraid they went too quickly to the T&A option in some parts of it.

Yes, they did. http://kotaku.com/5922228/tomb-raider-creators-say-rape-is-not-a-word-in-their-vocabulary And then everyone accused them of backpedaling...you know, I find it nothing short of astounding that we haven't had a game developer kill themselves yet, I'm not sure I'd be able to handle the stress.

It's ugly, I admit that, but it's reality. There's a reason this game is the video game image for Cerberus Syndrome on tv tropes, they're trying to go for something dark and brutal, and in the cold harsh reality of this world, odds are a gruff thug that's lived on an island in isolation for who knows how long, odds are he wouldn't be hospital. And that isn't the only way that we're supposed to care about her, Lara is going to go through a whole lot of other shit too, including getting attacked by a wolf and being forced to kill a dear for food (something that she was clearly upset about) being forced to fend for herself and forced to kill people. That assault is just one of many things. They writers are forcing Lara to adapt to a harsh environment, while simultaneously turning her into a woobie. http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TheWoobie I've made characters woobies, some of them guys, and they tend to be very popular characters because the reader wants to see them overcome the hardships in front of them and improve their lives.

Because, to be perfectly honest, getting captured happens a lot in video games, even when we're dealing with super badasses. The Lone Wanderer got captured, Jason Brody got captured (speaking of Far Cry 3, there was some male on male ACTUAL rape in there, and I don't think anyone cared. Kinda depressing) Master Chief got captured, Link got captured, Gordon Freeman got captured, and even Solid Snake got captured. It's really just a thing that happens for reasons I don't quite understand.

Well, glad I was able to clear some things up for you.

I'd like to complain a bit about the homophobia example given, since it is a JRPG I think it is a very poor example as you have to remember that it is from Japan which is a country different to the USA in many ways.
Gay characters are found a lot in JRPGs, as over in Japan homosexuality is more accepted by society. I actually feel that it is "because" they are accepted that Japanese games don't get flack for the stereotypes; it is seen as more of a joke than an insult. As such it is not homophobic, as for it to be homophobic it would have to be actually insulting gay people which it likely isn't.

Am I making sense here? I don't think I am.

______________________

Since so many people brung up the tomb raider debate I feel I should throw in my two cents.
I feel the whole argument is absolutely ridiculous. Why? Because in books, movies, heck I've seen anime do rape scenes and people are perfectly okay with it. It is a way to evoke drama, to make a character become tragic and is often a way to develop a female character for better or for worse.
If this wasn't a video game then in my opinion no one would have a problem with the scene, but video games are seen as a child's medium, it has rarely come out of its shell to explore deeper topics like this, to the point that when it tries people get afraid and lash out.

SecsNoises:

JudgeGame:

I don't think anybody has ever argued the ponies aren't sexualized. They are given giant eyes, exagerated eyelashes

Last time I checked, those are traits associated with youth and innocence in cartoons.

See: Most Disney movies.

and quaint, feminine gestures.

I hate to break it to you, but I've yet to meet a Brony who has ever thought "corrrr, I'm going to clop myself sore to those quaint feminine gestures".

The problem isn't within the intention of the animators and writers, but rather your own perception of a children's cartoon.

Look. We all know why bronies get the stick. I have heard no end of comments from people who have never even watched the show that the ponies look too sexy and that they find that disturbing. I really didn't care until I couldn't ignore the outrage any longer. It's pretty much universally accepted that the ponies in MLP are a bit too sexy.

And in answer to your "youth and innocence" argument.

See: Infantilization of female sexuality. A very old and well established concept.

m19:

JudgeGame:

I have a hard time convincing myself this question even deserves an answer.
image

The entire zombie genre dehumanizes people. Literally. It's horror, it's kind of the point. If you think all but a very few men actually get off on this then maybe you are the sick one.

Intent is important.

But still, they expect you to display that thing in your living room... Itīs not meant to be hidden away in a dusty cupboard where it belongs. Sexualised or not, itīs still a decapitated corpse. If it had a head it wouldnīt be as fucked up.

I donīt really mind things like this, but sometimes i think itīs okay to use your common sense and think: "should we make this? is this a good idea?". Thereīs nothing wrong in thinking, that isnīt censorship, thatīs just being rational. Itīs the same with the quest in Skyrim and some of the more creepy Hitman trailers (and the facebook thing...). Now that the things exist, it probably isnīt the end of civilization, and it probably doesnīt ruin Skyrim or Hitman, but itīs still worth discussing and itīs still worth thinking twice whenever you get a "clever" idea.

MrHeteronormative:
Oh Joy! Another week wasted on listening to this preening, self-important git preaching his political ideology at us. I really, really love it when that happens.

You could go and listen to somebody else, you know? Are you into masochism?

Also, are you going for a record ban? Good luck with that.

JudgeGame:

SecsNoises:

JudgeGame:

I don't think anybody has ever argued the ponies aren't sexualized. They are given giant eyes, exagerated eyelashes

Last time I checked, those are traits associated with youth and innocence in cartoons.

See: Most Disney movies.

and quaint, feminine gestures.

I hate to break it to you, but I've yet to meet a Brony who has ever thought "corrrr, I'm going to clop myself sore to those quaint feminine gestures".

The problem isn't within the intention of the animators and writers, but rather your own perception of a children's cartoon.

Look. We all know why bronies get the stick. I have heard no end of comments from people who have never even watched the show that the ponies look too sexy and that they find that disturbing. I really didn't care until I couldn't ignore the outrage any longer. It's pretty much universally accepted that the ponies in MLP are a bit too sexy.

And in answer to your "youth and innocence" argument.

See: Infantilization of female sexuality. A very old and well established concept.

To be honest dude I don't think it's so much universally accepted as your own personal problem.

If you find yourself aroused watching MLP then well... that's your business, but please don't project it onto everyone else.

Hagi:

JudgeGame:

SecsNoises:

Last time I checked, those are traits associated with youth and innocence in cartoons.

See: Most Disney movies.

I hate to break it to you, but I've yet to meet a Brony who has ever thought "corrrr, I'm going to clop myself sore to those quaint feminine gestures".

The problem isn't within the intention of the animators and writers, but rather your own perception of a children's cartoon.

Look. We all know why bronies get the stick. I have heard no end of comments from people who have never even watched the show that the ponies look too sexy and that they find that disturbing. I really didn't care until I couldn't ignore the outrage any longer. It's pretty much universally accepted that the ponies in MLP are a bit too sexy.

And in answer to your "youth and innocence" argument.

See: Infantilization of female sexuality. A very old and well established concept.

To be honest dude I don't think it's so much universally accepted as your own personal problem.

If you find yourself aroused watching MLP then well... that's your business, but please don't project it onto everyone else.

I suppose I should say the same to you. I have no problems with how you decide to deal with your sexuality, but I'd refrain from elaborating on your "physical attraction =! sexual attraction" theory, it isn't going anywhere. Take it as a word of advice.

Hagi:
See, that's the problem with this video. It doesn't take the side of having these issues open to debate. It takes the side of having these issues open to debate but only for everyone who agrees that they're sexist/racist/homophobic.

If someone attempts to silence your point of view then the appropriate reaction is to ignore them, you have a right to your opinion that nobody can take away. The appropriate reaction is not to attempt to silence them in turn, they also have a right to their opinion that you can't take away.

This is just not true, I think. This video takes the side of those who agree that there is a dialogue here worth having. Calling out the silencers as just that, silencers, is not the same as being a silencer in turn. This is something that simply needs to happen to foster a healthy debate that a HUGE part of the video game audience thinks need to be had.

Dexter111:
(1)Except Sterling often changes his opinion about as fast as he changes his underpants and is very often deliberately provocative and using the "hot button issues" as a means to gain hits. He does or rather did this with his reviews too (giving games their highest or lowest score on Metacritic for the sole reason of getting attention) and has even admitted to it in the past, since the thing he craves most is the click-baity attention he gets from it and additional shows and columns promising him even more money.
That's why I would take what he says with a huge grain of salt every time.

(2)There is no side that is categorically "correct", there is just different opinions clashing against each other.
If you are trying to discuss a game being flawed you can only do that by reffering to its gameplay mechanics, plot mechanisms, the strength of the characterization etc. and not via matters of taste or what a certain subset of people considers "offensive". People will have to realize at some point that even games like Dead or Alive: Volleyball or Postal 2 have a reason to exist, and if there's no demand for them the market will reject them and they won't be made anymore. Games are entertainment foremost and not edutainment or otherwise obliged to adhere to and make moral statements for the benefit of all civilization.

(3)If everyone got on his respective soapbox in regards to what he doesn't "like" or what he finds "offensive" in regards to books, movies or music as much as our dear "gaming journalists" seem to do in regards to games lately there'd be shit for choice and entire music/movie genres wouldn't exist to begin with. (from zombie, splatter to any movies containing any sexual content to rap, heavy metal, techno, jazz and possibly even rock - all of these things were (and often still are) considered the devils work at some point)

(1) Even if this was true, and it very well may be, I don't know anything about Mr. Sterling's motivations for doing anything, it would only really be relevant if his concrete point failed to hold water. They don't. His arguments are basically the same that dedicated feminist blogs have been saying for years, re-appropriated for a larger audience. Which is fine, regardless of the motivations behind them, and I have no reason to think that they are anything but noble, because these are points that are sound and needs to be heard and talked about.

(2) Only one side actively tries to subdue and the discussion and silence those they see as "opposition", though, and that is really the root problem. Gamers as a sub-culture should not be afraid to look at games with a critical eye, and you are right, games like DoA & Postal 2 have a reason to exist, but let's not pretend that they are something they are not. They're masturbatory material and, ehhr, I have no idea what Postal is about. I'll assume it's a violence simulator. And that's fine! Let's just not pretend it's anything it's not, and don't try to silence those who wish to analyse how those games fit into the zeitgeist.

(3) I can only speak to blogosphere that deals with literature, fiction mainly, but trust me, the activists who argue for a more critical view of modern fiction as it relates to gender roles, inclusivity, etc, are just as active there, if not more. And fiction is doing just fine, and many many awesome writers have been given the spotlight who would otherwise have remained anonymous. Only good things come from this.

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