It Doesn't Matter

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Zachariah Wheeler:
As a film studies major, thank you very much. Not enough people fight against the rampant and juvenile cynicism found throughout internet film criticism. As RedLetterMedia's Half in the Bag stated: It feels like every movie review is either "Well what were you expecting from a movie like that?" or "This film is overrated"

Everything is either so awful that you're wrong to criticize it, or it's good, but not as good as everyone says it is. I find the latter opinion to be expressed almost exclusively by people attempting to set themselves apart as "edgy". "Oh man you like (insert popular critically acclaimed movie), I mean it's good, but people only like it because they aren't as film literate as I am"

I think it's not so much they want to be edgy but that to actually invest into something emotionally and saying "Cloud Atlas is pure awesome!" Is much more risky with viewers because if a viewer thinks (more often assumes) the movie is bad he won't stick around because he'll think since you don't agree with him you're wrong and not worth listening to. But having your hook as it's good but not great lets them think that if they continue they'll see you echo their own opinions.

It doesn't matter now what happens I will never give up the fight
There is no way I will run away from all of my frights
Long as the voice inside me says go, I will always keep on running
There is no way to stop me from going to the very top
It doesn't matter who is wrong and who is right

Sorry, I had to do that.

Movie Bob:
If something utterly impossible, nonsensical or unbelievable plays out in front of you and you're so wrapped up in the experience thanks to the music, action, performances and overall verisimilitude that you don't even think about something not having made sense until later, if at all, that's good!

Agreed. But in my head, that is what Cinema Sins is doing: pointing out the moments that break my suspension of disbelief /later/. I know others don't necessarily agree with me, but I enjoy fridge logic, and laugh at the ridiculous of things in movies I never noticed. But I don't generally let them change my opinion of the movie. I've seen both honest trailers and cinema sins version of the Avengers and neither of them impacted my opinion of the movie in the slightest. It was still fun, had great dialogue/banter and exciting action sequences. The fact that all the heroes act like they have ear pieces when they clearly do not only made me laugh a little. I know that movies aren't perfect and that there are always going to be problems.

I'm still going to defend cinema sins. If you do what cinema sins does the first time you see a movie, then I'd argue you are setting out to hate a movie. But if you notice these things on a second, fourth, or tenth viewing, you are just using your brain and observation skills now that the immediate impact of the film has worn off.

I agree and disagree with Movie Bob

I refer you to youtuber 'Mrbtongue's first video. (the guy who made a 40min review of mass effect story telling)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7MlatxLP-xs&t=23m0s

Narrative coherence; when so many internal inconsistencies, mistakes, unexplained stuff happens the movie starts falling apart.

And he makes a really good point...you can overlook 1 or 2 'problems' but they build up.

I still don't understand how the CIA can trace the list in Mission impossible 1 but that's ok cos that's just one problem...however in Prometheus there are about 15 problems that are equal or bigger then this (not even including the crap character development) so yh it is a problem.

So while cinema sins is nit picky and annoying at times...it's not entirely useless...and I'm pretty sure it's made for fun

So, we're criticizing criticism now?
image

For me, when I come into something without any biases, I find myself liking it much more... and then when I find real, legitimate complaints in it, depending on my nostalgia filter, I find that thing only slightly less appealing. Take Sonic Adventure 2 Battle for the Gamecube. I freaking loved that game. Seeing the review on Sonic Retro? It really did call out some poor design choices, but in the end, playing it with my mate months later didn't affect me being able to appreciate the game for what it was. The longer I harbor good feelings for something, the harder it is to change my opinion of it. Maybe it's a universal truth in people, or maybe it's me, who knows, who cares?

Avengers Count: 3

Aw man, and to think you could actually go for an entire week without mentioning your favorite overhyped comic-geek fantasy, after multiple specials, countless blog posts, and a review that'd make IGN's advereviewers look and go "...damn, man." This is like a twist ending to a horror movie, where the protagonist finally hopes "maybe I can move the fuck on, after this sad, sad thing", and then the monster decides that its hunger is insatiable, never to fucking stop and it all comes into one final twist ending! Oh well, time to sum up that hope in a YouTube video!

MovieBob:
For example: Entire planets dominated by a single geographic feature, but capable of sustaining life? Willing to buy it. A pre-teen blowing up a space station by accident in the same universe? Too far...

who blew up a space station in Phantom Menace?

That was a Battleship that Jr Vader blew up (disguised as a cargo ship)

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Lucrehulk-class_LH-3210_cargo_freighter

If you are going to complain about something the least you could do was get it right, google isnt so hard to use. :P

I'm probably a minority in this, and honestly not much a movie person in the first place, but I tend to enjoy movies more for the settings and occasionally characters they establish then anything that happens to them. The context more then the substance. While I'm not likely to gripe about such and such not being realistic, plot holes and inconsistencies I realize later often... for lack of a better word taint the enjoyment I might've had with it earlier. So I find them a bit important, and am thankful when I know to avoid a movie because of them, as there's few things that illicit the same sort of disappointment as watching a movie, loving it, watching it again and coming away frustrated with it's flaws. Those who nitpick the things you only notice when paying close attention on multiple viewings can be helpful to some people.

As a huge fan of MS3TK, Unskippable, and yes, even Spoony, I would argue that it is possible appreciate the inspired real-time intellectual assault on a movie AND the movie itself (though not at the same time). I consider Wizard people dear reader to be one the the greatest comedic achievements of our times; however, Harry Potter is pretty good too ;)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wizard_People,_Dear_Reader

I think that maybe we are starting to see the backlash against the idea that you have to turn you brain off to enjoy a movie. I know I've gotten tired of people saying the reason I didn't enjoy some Hollywood big, loud, and stupid film was because I dared to think during the movie.

I shouldn't have to leave my brain in the car because I've seen outrageous stuff in movies that test my suspension of disbelief, but with good film making I can say oh what the heck that spaceship can somehow bank in space. Sure movie make me think the impossible can happen but don't assume that people buying a ticket are stupid.

I find it ironic that the man who nitpicked The Amazing Spider-Man to death is now criticizing someone else for nitpicking movies to death. Not saying he's a hypocrite; just making a point. Good article otherwise.

I think the concept of "movies are supposed to be experienced a certain way" is flawed. Surely, every moviemaker wants their movie to be experienced a different way and sometimes the audience (critics included) decide not to play on the moviemaker's terms at which point the moviemaker can only go and eat shit. Ultimately, everyone can experience anything however they want and everybody can expect other people to experience different way and in the end none of this makes any difference to the resulting experience. That's one existential can of worms that just got open.

Bob I have to say this article really felt like a cloaked attempt to voice your dislike of CinemaSins. And a really misguided one at that.

Your points would all, of course, be totally valid if "Everything Wrong with _________ in three minutes" was a legitimate review show. It isn't. It is a video series that pokes fun at fridge logic, by definition. I'm positive that those who make the videos generally like the movie because, y'know, you'd have to in order to notice everything.

Other than that, yes, I get it. Tbh I think the video to explain it best is

When MrBTongue talks about Narrative Cohesiveness. That basically sums it up. When there are enough plot holes/inconsistencies that they hinder your enjoyment of the story, then it's a problem. For example, I thought this happened in the Dark Knight Rises. It got to a point where I lost interest in such a nonsensical narrative. However, poking fun at the stuff in Avengers is good because it doesn't bother you during the film.

SpidersBySystem:

My old roommate was basically a walking Cinema Sins. He actively tried to compete with any movie he saw, picking up on any excuse to tear any movie off of any pedestal he thought it might have been on and then wondered why nobody liked watching movies with him. I don't talk to him anymore, but i sure hope he never finds out about Cinema Sins.

He's probably the person that runs the website.

"some of them are really a stretch"... hahaha... saying this cause they were really spot on on the Avengers!
Super Heroes pretending to use headsets... face it... it was a bad movie... with one of the worst villains.
See to me the fact that they created a build up of 5 movies before doing the Avengers was not enough for me to appreciate it. It was bad. Yes it's a first in cinema history... but even with that in mind... it's hard to appreciate the movie for what it is in front of your eyes. Anyway... they nitpick errors and non sense in movies... they don't say the movies are bad, or that you are stupid to like these movie. Just pointing out stuff that made no sense. And now it's up to everybody else to decide if they are bothered by that or not.

I don't care if some people read it as condescending, THIS is the kind of writing and insight I enjoy the most from MovieBob and I really wish he would spend more time doing this sort of thing. Succinctly written and an important lesson that a lot of us need to get and would probably never have access to otherwise.

I'm seriously done reading or watching anything from Bob. He just can't accept any other opinion or view except his own.

And you know what? Avengers was crap.

I've recently found both Honest Trailers and Cinema sins, and I must say, I enjoy both. If the message of Cinema Sins is 'because of this list of plot holes, the films suck and really deserve to go to hell', it sure as hell doesn't come across to me. With such 'sins' as 'Scene does not contain lapdance', it's pretty obvious they don't take themselves too seriously.

To me, it seems they're just making jokes about movies. What's so bad about that? Yeah, I wouldn't recommend acting this nitpicky while or before watching the movie. (Hence why I haven't seen the Looper video, I still mean to watch that one) But after the movie is over, why not crack a few jokes about the silly things in it?

Vault101:

you have to draw a line between "reasonable" and "unreasonable" suspension of disbelif

This. Looper is a movie that asks you to believe a lot. For this sins episode to make fun of time travel is low hanging fruit.

I just saw Die Hard 5. It is a mess. It isn't just that there are plot holes but that there is no logic to the movie at all.

Some things will take you out of the picture they're so bad. The Dark Knight is probably my all time favorite at this time. But when Batman "saves" Rachael by falling off a building with her, I'm thinking, "WTF?" Luckily, I was able to move past that enjoy the movie.

But if you're going to complain that Iron Man would just be a lot of goo inside the iron suit after being hit by things the Iron can withstand, but a human cannot, I think you have some work to do on suspending disbelief. You're missing out on the logic of the movie itself, and the good time it provides.

Falseprophet:

No, my problem with Prometheus is that the characters in question were so thin and their motivations so vague and ill-defined that my mind had nowhere else to go but to linger on how little sense everyone's behavior was making.

That's it exactly. Prometheus wanted me to care about its characters when it hadn't done any work to make me do so. Alien, on the other hand, made sure I'd gotten to know and even care about the Nostromo crew so when they start doing stupid things, I had a lot more empathy for them.

Yeah, it's like in The Thing: again, like Alien, its basically a slasher movie with a vaguely justified sci-fi premise, but you can accept character flaws and even characters acting stupid, because they feel grounded and relatable enough to make sense.

Take this character from Alien:

image

She spends the entire movie panicking, sobbing and getting in the way. That sort of thing would take you out of the movie in poorer films, but due to good characterisation and a well established situation, you can easily accept that, yes, some people would be this useless. It feels far less frustrating than when a poorly established character in Prometheus blunders into a deadly situation and makes all the worst decisions.

Jacob.pederson:
As a huge fan of MS3TK, Unskippable, and yes, even Spoony, I would argue that it is possible appreciate the inspired real-time intellectual assault on a movie AND the movie itself (though not at the same time). I consider Wizard people dear reader to be one the the greatest comedic achievements of our times; however, Harry Potter is pretty good too ;)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wizard_People,_Dear_Reader

That's less about nit-picking and more about riffing though. They both involve combing through a movie to look for things to complain about, but the latter is about poking some good natured fun whilst still enjoying movie, whilst the former is just about showing off at the expense of the movie.

maninahat:

That's less about nit-picking and more about riffing though. They both involve combing through a movie to look for things to complain about, but the latter is about poking some good natured fun whilst still enjoying movie, whilst the former is just about showing off at the expense of the movie.

Kindly explain to me what makes 'Everything wrong with ... in X minutes or less' nitpicking while Spoony or ThatGuyWithTheGlasses are riffing. It just seems like a different style of going through all the weird bits in the movie and making jokes about them, namely by listing them off in rapid succession. I don't see what Cinema Sins is doing as something other than 'poking some good natured fun'. They might not like every movie they reviewed (though I think they actually did enjoy some of them), but have you seen Spoony during his 'Ultima IX' review?

And as far as MST3K goes, I find that Bob's comment about watching movies the wrong way would apply to that show much more than to Cinema Sins. MST3K is supposed to be how you watch the entire movie, with snipping comments talking over the movie. Funny comments perhaps, but still. Cinema Sins is supposed to be watched in a few minutes after you've seen the movie. It doesn't need to affect how you watch the movie proper. I see in now way implied that Cinema Sins encourages you to make a mental list of sins while you're watching any movie.

I really don't get Bob's problem with CS, while loving MST3K for doing explicitly what he accuses CS from allegedly endorsing implicitly.

Thespian:

When MrBTongue talks about Narrative Cohesiveness.

That's awesome. Thanks for the link. The way he conveys his point there is really excellent.

bificommander:

maninahat:

That's less about nit-picking and more about riffing though. They both involve combing through a movie to look for things to complain about, but the latter is about poking some good natured fun whilst still enjoying movie, whilst the former is just about showing off at the expense of the movie.

Kindly explain to me what makes 'Everything wrong with ... in X minutes or less' nitpicking while Spoony or ThatGuyWithTheGlasses are riffing. It just seems like a different style of going through all the weird bits in the movie and making jokes about them, namely by listing them off in rapid succession. I don't see what Cinema Sins is doing as something other than 'poking some good natured fun'.

I suppose what counts as good natured fun riffing and nitpicking is whether I'm having fun as the viewer. With Cinema Sins I'm not, and that's mostly down to somewhat uninspired comedy writing, which feels less like jokes and more like lists of alleged mistakes. The purpose of these movie criticisms is to provide entertainment whilst educating me on the flaws, but Cinema Sins does neither, which leads me to conclude that he has achieved nothing beyond nitpicking.

I agree that Spoony's most recent reviews have felt a little like this too, but generally, the fun is to be had in how upset Spoony gets, or in how cleverly Spoony can mock the problem - which was certainly the case in his older reviews.

I agree that what a film makes you feel during it is the most important thing, but some of us are more analytical than others. Some of us consume media in order to feel something, and some of us use it to sharpen our ability to logically think through complex systems. Obviously, speculative fiction and hard sci-fi are the best places to exercise this, but other forms of media can work for it, as well. You don't make a compelling argument for why your way of reacting to a film is more genuine than mine.

I think this largely depends on what kind of story the film is attempting to tell. Small mistakes stand out a lot more in something that presents itself as "smart" like The Da Vinci Code or National Treasure than in something that never pretends to be anything other than what it is, like Independence Day. As a rule of thumb, if you can't write an aspect of your story well, minimize it instead of trying to fake it. Audiences can readily detect bullshit, but they'll generally ignore it if there's not very much.

P.S. Thanks

maninahat:

I suppose what counts as good natured fun riffing and nitpicking is whether I'm having fun as the viewer. With Cinema Sins I'm not, and that's mostly down to somewhat uninspired comedy writing, which feels less like jokes and more like lists of alleged mistakes. The purpose of these movie criticisms is to provide entertainment whilst educating me on the flaws, but Cinema Sins does neither, which leads me to conclude that he has achieved nothing beyond nitpicking.

I agree that Spoony's most recent reviews have felt a little like this too, but generally, the fun is to be had in how upset Spoony gets, or in how cleverly Spoony can mock the problem - which was certainly the case in his older reviews.

Well, I guess it comes down to a matter of personal taste then. I am having fun with it. It's a different style of comedy than a Spoony or ThatGuyWithTheGlasses style review, which generally have more time for a build-up or dressing up of the jokes about a particular odd thing in a movie. But I find the rapid-fire nature of the various weird things, plus the way he describes some of the odd things, funny enough in their own right. Others may not find it witty. So it goes.

Guy Jackson:
That's awesome. Thanks for the link. The way he conveys his point there is really excellent.

Oh yes. Tasteful understated nerdrage is the best thing to come out of the Mass Effect 3 ending debacle. I watch it whenever I feel frustrated by the ending :P
The section of the video where he talks about narrative coherence really applies to what Bob is saying here. Nitpicks are only appropriate if a) the genre is appropriate and b) they get in the way of the plot enough to hinder your enjoyment of the piece in the moment.

Thespian:
Bob I have to say this article really felt like a cloaked attempt to voice your dislike of CinemaSins. And a really misguided one at that.

Your points would all, of course, be totally valid if "Everything Wrong with _________ in three minutes" was a legitimate review show. It isn't. It is a video series that pokes fun at fridge logic, by definition. I'm positive that those who make the videos generally like the movie because, y'know, you'd have to in order to notice everything.

Thanks for stating what i thought.
It seems like a kind of "my kind of criticism is right, your is bad and cynical and whh i dont like it"

sight. i live nitpicking. I even love nitpicking the shit out of movies and games BECAUSE I LOVE THEM.
Its like a bromancy lovely word-fight which culminates into calling someone funny names and teasing them for little fails they made-but under friends, so for other people it might look more serious than it actually is.. so i love nitpicking, I don't know why but its fun to me and I ha a hellot of fun watching these moviesins-videos, more than the honest trailers-but maybe because the honest trailers aren't so over the top (lapdances anyone?)

and well, it seems that mr. bob has a problem with this show and I really don't understand why-I think it is clearly satirical while its poking fun at the moves-and it shows the amber in the ashes.

so because i have no clue what his(well not only bobs... if I read this thread, there are many users which say "me too dont like".) problem is, i will make assumptions a lot.^^ and because my English is crap be prepared for ghibberish.

i like deconstruction and picking apart (of movies, games, even books) and having my disbelief-its the kind of person I am, i tend to see every little shit nobody sees-this kills immersion but I am very susceptible for that.
Im used to it. after times I began to actually like to spot this things but I think most people don't -and maybe the problem is not that people like the movie-sin-guy or me are better in spotting plot-holes and fails, its the problem that we like to tell people about it, we nag and babble and-well annoy the ones who want to watch the movie. (but nobody has to see the youtube-videos, you can shut them by closing the window.)

it seems to me that these people might feel that this nitpicking takes the fun out of their experience and maybe they transfer their feelings toward nitpicking on other. Maybe they think that, because the nitpicking would kill their experience, ours must be awful?)

i dont know, maybe bob can explain.

but I love moviesins, so thanks for mentioning the videos, this made my night a little bit happier- I just had fun because of that.
I can see movies I couldn't see before and laugh about them getting torn apart. I can have fun out of them. and i could see parts of inception. \o/
(I cant see it.. i cant stand it-not because of the movie, because of the stupid idea of those DURGHS to use the Edith piaf song on this movie. I HATE THEM. id love to see this movie but i cant because some derp chooses this one song out of a bazillion of songs and i bet my ass there were a thousand songs which ould have fit in better than "Non, Je Ne Regrette Rien".. They could, well, aehm, actually make ALL of their Film-music on their own *gnargh.
okay, my mother could ve chosen another one for her burial.. the cunt. sometimes i hate my family..

grm, my day just got worse. i am such an idiot^^

p.s:captcha: bratwurst und sauerkraut: duh, that thing knows what i ve eaten yesterday. okay,it was a vegan bratwurst and fried sauerkraut(tasty!) but a creepingly good guess.

I think it's a bad sign that everyone is trying to riff movies now. It's almost as if it's impossible to just watch and, God forbid, enjoy something these days. I know that nothing's perfect, but that doesn't mean that you need to dedicate so much time to ragging on something with nitpicks, which often times are just hyperbole, strawmen and downright lies. The RLM reviews of the prequels come to mind, yeah they make some good points. But if you watch them to completetion, then more a few of the so called "flawless critiscisms" are exaggerations or lies.

But of course, fans just like to say "It's just comedy"...until they make a 'good' point, then all of the sudden it's a genius review.

This, I think, sums up the problem with CinemaSins just fine.
http://www.film.com/movies/jurassic-park-flaws

Ironically bob, you introduced me to both honest trailers and Cinema Sins, both of which I enjoy. So thanks for that. That's right, I said I enjoy both honest trailers and cinema sins 'everything wrong with x movie in y minutes" videos. Does either make me feel any different about the movie in question? no.

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