Jimquisition: Previewed, Preordered, Prescrewed

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Jim, I must say, you get better and better for every episode you do.

This one was the first episode that I actually had to pause, because I was laughing so hard I couldn“t hear what you were saying.

Gott mit dir, Jim!

Oh man, that ending XD

I've never per-ordered a game in my life. As a PC gamer all i see 'exclusive content' as is an incentive to pirate a game as that will be the most complete version. I don't pirate games but since i have very limited time like most modern 20-somethings (seriously, where did all my fucking spare time go? I've got a day off and I've still managed to fill it with banal things that needed to be done) i just screen out most AAA games for ones that have less bullshit to them.

It shrinks the market. It's bad business.

From demos to pre-ordering pre-orders... how far we've fallen.
I hope to never pre-order anything again.

kajinking:
To be be more OT I have to wonder if any of the other developers are watching this situation or are even concerned by it? I'd think that a massive wave of anti-preorder feelings might get their attention. Think they might do anything diffrent in it's wake?

There isn't going to be a "massive wave" of anything. It would take several years of morons gamers being consistently shat on by almost every developer and publisher in the industry for the average game-consumer (which we here are in no way representative of) to change their ways. One bad game on its own is like a fart in the wind.

I agree with this but unfortunately I'm still guilty of pre-ordering Crysis 3 and Bioshock: Infinite. Crysis 3 is because it comes with Crysis 1, which I was going to spend $20 on before I found out I'd get it for free with Crysis 3's hunter edition as well as a $20 gift card on Amazon. That means I'm essentially getting Crysis 3 for $20 if I pre-order. I loved the multiplayer beta so I think that's a safe gamble.

As for Bioshock: Infinite the developers, Ken Levine in particular, has more then a decade of trust built up for him. System Shock 2 was and still is one of the best games ever made, and System Shock 1 while not as good was still one of the most terrifying games I've ever played as well as having the usual excellent story and at the least a "unique" atmosphere. Bioshock wasn't quite as amazing as System Shock 2 but still was incredible and I can tell you that just about nothing is going to stop me from getting Infinite because of how much of a fanboy I happen to be for the Shock games. The two franchises are two of the best the gaming medium has to offer and shame on anyone who hasn't played System Shock 2.

I have only pre-ordered 6 games over all my years in gaming and I haven't been screwed once.
Mass Effect 2, Mass Effect 3, Halo 3, Halo ODST, Halo Reach and Halo 4 are all games that I have enjoyed and I don't regret a thing.

The problem with TB is his paranoia of the "Fans." A "fan" to him is a scary being who drags the video game industry back. An evil creature who can't be trusted and is the reason that, he feels, the industry is crap. I mean I also don't like his hatred to consoles but that is another argument.

Pre-ordering is not bad, If you like the free shit you get, do it. I don't get how being screwed on pre-ordering one game makes all of pre-ordering wrong. I get that you are angry because your game sucked but it is one game.

I see Jim's point, but that still isn't going to stop me from pre-ordering Amnesia: A Machine For Pigs if the opportunity arises.

Sorry if that makes me a 'moron', guys. I'll just go sit in the corner with the dunce hat.

Bioshock infinite was the first game i preordered in the last 3 years, it really looks like the dev team put a lot of heart into making it and the fact that they keep pushing the release date back could go both ways; the game is too shit to be released or they really want to ship a ground breaking title. Either way i feel that 2k is one of the few publishers i could trust with publishing a good title.

It's interesting how EVERY game nowadays gets pre order and many variations of Limited Editions, even the brand new franchises that might end up not deserving a special edition get one of those releases, makes no sense to me. I remember when a product's special edition only came AFTER it became a HUUUUUGE success, meaning it would come after the release of the standard edition, which makes sense, since it adds value to the special edition. This goes to movies as well...

Starting at 4:08 I started crying manly tears... that was a beautiful speech, Jim. Just outright beautiful...

It's entierly true, also. Why are we the ones treated as criminals when they are the proven liars?

A friend of mine just pre-ordered Pokemon XY from game... the games only just been announced! I can't talk to much though, I pre-ordered the new Bioshock the other day, not the special version mind you just the standard game, as if they're gonna run out... im a mug.

Also, that ending, hello new ring tone! XD

Mr Cwtchy:
I see Jim's point, but that still isn't going to stop me from pre-ordering Amnesia: A Machine For Pigs if the opportunity arises.

Sorry if that makes me a 'moron', guys. I'll just go sit in the corner with the dunce hat.

Not at all I guess: Amnesia proved itself with the first game. Though I pose you a question, since i believe it's a PC/Mac exclusive, why pre-order if it's available for download via Steam, meaning they will never run out of copies nor will you have to wait in line? Or is there some incentive for pre-order?

Previous pre-orders: Disgaea 4, Final Fantasy XIII, Final Fantasy: Dissidia Duodecim, Dynasty Warriors 7, Dynasty Warriors Gundam 3, Sengoku Basara, Tactics Ogre: PSP.

Current pre-orders: Metal Gear Rising, Dynasty Warriors 7: Empires

Get the idea yet?

Many of these games wouldn't be stocked on the shelves if I had not pre-ordered a copy. The biggest exception (FFXIII) was the worst of the bunch, and my least favorite game this generation so...

Thank god for you Jim!

Whenever one of us mere mortals broaches this subject here at the Escapist, we are bombarded by a constant assault from apologists for the industry. Many of us here have been on that boat for a while, and it had nothing to do with any internet celebrity (I mean who could possibly compare to the one and only Jim Sterling). We have been burned one too many times, that is why. As more and more people get burned as we have, more and more of us will stop pre-ordering. Market wise I can't imagine too many people pre-order outside of the core gamer demographic, and since many of us in the core demographic purchase our own games... well you see where I am going (for everyone else: the core group gets burned on day one dlc and pre-orders until the practice becomes shunned by the very group the publishers are trying to sell to). Until that day though we will be stuck with the wheeling and dealing of the modern game industry.

To all of the apologists out there, this has nothing to do with being entitled, and it doesn't matter if the industry is there to make money. It is our job as consumers to let the industry know what we will put up with. Many of us don't like being taken advantage of, and we don't like seeing our favorite licenses being abused to make a quick buck. It is perfectly natural for customers to speak out when we feel taken advantage of, and it should be encouraged not suppressed as you seem to think it should. Our words will shape the future of the industry, and we would like it shaped in such a way that the customer matters again, instead of just our wallets.

With all due respect, I've been saying this for a while now, and it didn't take Colonial Marines to make me see it. The people who wait almost always get the better deal in the long run, whether it's avoiding the golden boys that turn out to be duds in review or getting all the DLC in a "Game of the Year" edition that cost as much or less than the original release.

Pretty impressive vocal at the end, there, though.

Preordering makes sense for hardware. There's generally a limited supply. Last time I preordered software it was ff8, and even then I got in on the "second shipment". However, these days digital software makes running out of copies mostly a thing of the past. mostly

Its good to see Jim is joining the rest of us who got an uneasy feeling about the introduction of preorder bonuses.

I look forward to this next console generation as this sillyness will probably all be reset in an epic crash. Glad I have steam, can get that preorder discount and more when the games go on sale. This console gen has fucked gaming worse than any other

Yeah only a few companies (atlus, Cd projct red) have gotten a preorder from me in a long time. Almost anything else I'll wait and see probably months down the line. Hell I only got portal 2 last week.

I have said this in the past but it does bear repeating.

Another Video Game crash is coming. It's inevitable. The industry at large has become so bloated and so distanced from it's consumer base that it can't sustain itself. Big ticket publishers are using kickstarter and other crowdfunding hubs (or trying to at any rate) simply because they can't get investors to back them anymore. So yes, a new crash is coming and honestly the THQ bankruptcy is just one of the first major publishers going down.

And I welcome it.

Now don't get me wrong, I don't like the idea of people being out of work as a result, but even non big-ticket games are easily requiring larger budgets than Summer Blockbuster movies which are notorious for being overly expensive in of themselves. Most of this can easily be cut down or cut out completely (you'd be surprised at how much of a budget goes to marketing) which would result in much larger profits over all.

The days of $100+ million games needs to end. Fortunately with Steam, GoG and various other Digital distribution systems, small budget developers like the guys behind SPAZ or Giana Sisters can easily survive such a crash because they have earned the loyalty of their fans. Meanwhile the likes of EA or Ubisoft will watch their multi-million dollar empires crash around them like THQ because their "loyal supporters" finally had enough and walked away.

Consumers involvement in bringing this around so it's favorable for everyone (well those that matter at any rate) is to stop being retarded. These are business you're dealing with so treat them like a business. You don't go to a restaurant and pay for a 3 course meal in advance, then when it arrives and is shit just eat it and move on only to become sick later. You don't pay for a new TV model in advance then when it's delivered broken and non-functional, accept it and use it as house furnishing. So why do gamers put up with this shit? Loyalty is a two way street and it's clear publishers aren't doing their part so why are consumers so willing to cover the slack?

They're businesses, treat them as such and stop supporting them when they screw up. They'll either learn to do right or they'll crash and burn. And it needs to happen sooner rather than later.

Never quite seen the point of pre-ordering. I mean, what happened to the concept of "patience"? And it's not just rubbish games that you have to worry about. In the UK, you need to factor in the strong possibility of the company you ordered the game from going bust (and you waving bye bye to the £10 deposit).

Honestly, I'm not a school boy wanting his dinner. I have other games. Heck, a bit of patience and a couple of months you can buy the game for a lot less than if you preordered it, most of the bonus's will be online as DLC (bit unsporting, TBPH, but those who are desperate for the milkmaid costume and the goat molester 5000 gun can pick them up if they so wish), and the reviews will be out (and the hype backlash begun, if it deserves any). Patience = consumer win.

I only pre-order when it's no money down in advance or a very small "we're going to be swarmed release night and we'll hold one for you so you don't have to put up with that BS" fee of say $5 or so - IF I'm really already self aware enough to know I'm going to want to play the next title in a franchise. Dragon Age springs to mind for that. I'm going to pre-order 3 whatever it is, because I've drunk the kool-aid there and I know it. Very few cups of that stuff make it past my lips but occasionally we all have one that slips by, I'm not ashamed to admit being human. But a whole purchase fee up front for something I'm not putting in my hand that moment? No. No. No. Been there, got burned, want no part of it. Season passes included - shit, if there'd been a 'season pass' for Skyrim I'd have waited more than a YEAR for the dlc I paid for to be delivered to the system I play on! I'd be livid. Thankfully, there wasn't and that is in the process of being resolved, but you can imagine the shit storm if we'd have all opened our wallets a year back for things we'd only be getting now.

Milanezi:

Mr Cwtchy:
I see Jim's point, but that still isn't going to stop me from pre-ordering Amnesia: A Machine For Pigs if the opportunity arises.

Sorry if that makes me a 'moron', guys. I'll just go sit in the corner with the dunce hat.

Not at all I guess: Amnesia proved itself with the first game. Though I pose you a question, since i believe it's a PC/Mac exclusive, why pre-order if it's available for download via Steam, meaning they will never run out of copies nor will you have to wait in line? Or is there some incentive for pre-order?

Well, mostly it's on the principle of supporting the developers. I am a huge fan of the first Amnesia, and while I know they are not technically making the next one it would make me feel like I'm helping. Personal motivation basically.

Also, I don't know whether I'll actually be getting it on Steam yet. Might end up buying it on their store page instead. We'll see. *shrug*

There isn't a pre-order out right now for it, FYI. Just saying that if they do release the option for it I'll be buying it, whether there's bonus stuff or not.

TorchofThanatos:
I have only pre-ordered 6 games over all my years in gaming and I haven't been screwed once.
Mass Effect 2, Mass Effect 3, Halo 3, Halo ODST, Halo Reach and Halo 4 are all games that I have enjoyed and I don't regret a thing.

The problem with TB is his paranoia of the "Fans." A "fan" to him is a scary being who drags the video game industry back. An evil creature who can't be trusted and is the reason that, he feels, the industry is crap. I mean I also don't like his hatred to consoles but that is another argument.

Pre-ordering is not bad, If you like the free shit you get, do it. I don't get how being screwed on pre-ordering one game makes all of pre-ordering wrong. I get that you are angry because your game sucked but it is one game.

To answer your question at the end:
Pre-Ordering is a bad practice because it encourages sales before there is a product to sell. That in and of itself doesn't seem as terrible as all that, but it is. What we encourage by giving our money away before the game is made is allowing the publisher/developer leeway to commit acts that can skew the final product. They know the game will be successful no matter what they do at that point, so they can (if they choose to) stop production on the game you have pre-ordered and still make a profit. While it doesn't mean that is what they will do, it is something that can and has happened.

Imagine you have a child. You give the child a project (lets say: pulling the weeds in the garden) and tell him that when he finishes his project you will give him a new video game. The child will get out there and start working hard and fast to get the project done. He knows that you will come check his work before you give him the game, so he does a thorough job. After he is done and you check the garden, you give him his game. That is how normal business practices work. Now lets see how the pre-order theory works in the same scenario. You tell the child that if he pulls all the weeds in the garden you will give him a new video game. The child goes out and starts working hard and fast, but half way through it he calls you outside to check the garden, you see his work and think he is doing a great job. Seeing as how he is doing so well, you say "wow, wonderful job. Here is your video game kid" and you go back inside. At this point the kid has the video game in his hands, how good of a job do you think he will do on the rest of the garden...

True if the kid is good he will finish the job at the same level he started it, but we are talking about developers who have a habit of screwing their customers over. These people will not continue at the same level they started at. They will rush the rest and go play with their new toy (or your money as it were).

This is why the practice is bad.

I usually tend to pre-order games from an ongoing series that I'm 95% confident will at least be entertaining... So basically, anything with either 'Zelda' or 'Lego' in the title.

The only studio I go out of my way to pre-order almost everything from is Bioware, and I'll admit that I'm going to keep at that trend for the time being. I mean, yeah, Dragon Age 2 and Mass Effect 3 (which, I admit, I got the collector's edition because - hey - it's Mass Effect) had their problems, but I'd be lying if I said I didn't have a blast while playing them.

It would probably take Dragon Age 3 being a colossal failure of the scale of Duke Nukem Forever and Aliens: Colonial Marines combined to get me to lose all faith in that studio.

In fairness Jim, most of us do pay for our fast food before we eat it. This is true for a lot of mediums. We have to buy the book before we can read most of it. We pay in advance for the movie at the theater or buying the DVD. Hell any public show is cash up front. And this makes sense in a lot of areas, especially to a crowd you don't want to enable them to pay to their satisfaction level.

The problem isn't pre-orders, it's PR bullshit surplanting actual quality, and companies arrogant enough to think tricking us is a good long term business practice. In your food example, you pay up front, but companies are too afraid of you taking your business elsewhere, or making a big public stink to get others to do the same they not only have to provide quality, they will usually compensate you for poor quality with only just enough hassle to ensure you aren't a scam artist, or even then. Game companies on the other hand can be summed up as "already got your money dude" and that's really all that matters: that first big week of sales.

There's nothing wrong with wanting money up front, or paying in advance. Hell, most of those that pre-ordered ACM would probably have just bought it day one anyway, so the crux of the argument is more about how fans don't wait for reviews: the same reviews we're starting t think are just an extension of the same PR bullshit and shouldn't be taken as gospel anyway, or are just full of biases of one form or another. While I don't condone making shitty games, I think this is just one area people are looking to lay blame on another because they bought without thinking, would have called any review that blasted it as biases, and are now stuck with shit, and that's just the risk you take when you want it day one. Granted this is slimier than normal, and it should be called out, blaming preorders for lying PR kind of misses the point.

Yes I pre-order, but 99% of the time it's those niche RPGs gamestop only gets 2 copies of, and the otther 1% are collector editions that at least offer a soundtrack.

Hmm, quite a few people have already responded with "Yeah, good point Jim... but I'm still pre-ordering stuff."

Hey guys, I'm currently... er... "developing" a potion of eternal youth and accepting pre-orders via PayPal. Right now its a Work In Progress but it already makes you stay 21 forever. Oh and it makes you smarter and better looking. Pre-order now and receive a free T-shirt! PM me.

Funny thing, if I know that there will be a lot of DLC or a so called "season pass", chances are I'm just gonna skip the game till a "game of the year" edition is released. I did it for Oblivion, Fallout 3, New Vegas and Borderlands.

Next up, Borderlands 2.

Also, I haven't pre-ordered a game since GTA IV.

LordLundar:
I have said this in the past but it does bear repeating.

Another Video Game crash is coming. It's inevitable. The industry at large has become so bloated and so distanced from it's consumer base that it can't sustain itself. Big ticket publishers are using kickstarter and other crowdfunding hubs (or trying to at any rate) simply because they can't get investors to back them anymore. So yes, a new crash is coming and honestly the THQ bankruptcy is just one of the first major publishers going down.

Preach it brother! THE END IS NIGH

I've always been too paranoid about a games quality to jump the gun and throw money at it before a very good amount of time has passed. I usually wait till the impressions from others has settled in about it. Lets just say I wont be buying any Spider-man games anymore.
PLUS, whats that song called when the video enters serious business mode, the one following Jesters Moon?

can I just give one defense to pre-ordering games from gamestop?? For some one that has limited finical means such as myself, it's a way of making small down payment for a game I really do want. Say for example Nisa is going to release disgaea 4 for the ps-vita in 2014. I really like the franchise already and trust their quality for making games. This will allow me a 3-4 month period to pay off a 30-40 dollar game at full retail price with out having to scrap up all that money in one-day.

Saviordd1:
Mass Effect 3 is what got me out of preordering games, this just confirms it for more people.

I honestly hope people take this to heart and don't preorder games based on previews or brand recogn....

image

So much for that idea.

I'm not pre-ordering BioShock Infinite > > I made that mistake with BioShock 2 and was grossly disappointed, even though it isn't bad at all.

Really I very rarely pre-order things anymore, I used to in the PS2 days when you got something for it, I have a few statues and things that prove it, but these days the digital content that comes as a "bonus" is simply never worth it, and it's certainly not worth paying publisher dictated prices (£45 is a fucking rip off, I remember when games cost £30 brand fucking new and you got a finished product) for any of the retailer exclusive day one pre-order horseshit.

I'm also sick of "betas" which are glorified demos of buggy and unfinished games, released to the public with the promise that "we'll fix it soon", Battlefield 3 was buggy and unbalanced and the beta feedback reflected that, it got shifted out soon after anyway.

I've ceased pre-ordering on anything until I can inform myself of it's quality and value to me first, or in the case that I genuinely trust the brand and the publisher and developers. I've pre-ordered Sly: Thieves in Time because I trust Sanzaru and the media from it being out in the US already has proven to be relatively positive and has assured me that it will be good (it's also £30, which is very reasonable), and Luigi's Manion: Dark Moon, because I trust Nintendo and Miyamotos team to deliver a high quality product and not to lie to me.

Grr games industry.

Calm now.

Butter side down indeed capcha.

Cecilthedarkknight_234:
can I just give one defense to pre-ordering games from gamestop?? For some one that has limited finical means such as myself, it's a way of making small down payment for a game I really do want. Say for example Nisa is going to release disgaea 4 for the ps-vita in 2014. I really like the franchise already and trust their quality for making games. This will allow me a 3-4 month period to pay off a 30-40 dollar game at full retail price with out having to scrap up all that money in one-day.

Layaways used to do that before they got largely phased out. In fact, the only difference between the two is with a layaway you were still paying in parts for something guaranteed to be there and in the expected condition instead of a promissory note that may not (and most likely will not) be true.

This is a time when I'm happy that I've never pre-ordered games. I've always waited for reviews and feedback from other gamers before buying. I don't have enough money to spent on wishes.

Also, this same problem can be said about Kickstarter and other crowdfunding. It's nice that some people are trusting enough to give these people money for hopes and dreams. But I need to see the final product before I'm willing to give any of my hard earned cash.

Key thing that most people seem to forget is that these developers say and show us things about their products because they want to sell them. They're salesmen. And I've never trusted those. They don't care about you, they only care about how much they can sell.

Apparently Jim never frequents grocery stores, fast food restaurants or concession stand type vendors.

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