Jimquisition: Previewed, Preordered, Prescrewed

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*chuckles*
So basically...Marketing is dishonest?
Yeah no shit, Jim.

Hmmm. How do we know whether or not to trust the devs? Because I don't think that whats being said here is to NEVER preorder a game, but how are we supposed to know if we can trust what we're being shown?

I've preordered KH3D, and wasn't disappointed. I'm considering preordering Bioshock Infinite, despite having never gotten a game from it's devs before.

So how can we tell if the makers of the products are trustworthy?

Imperator_DK:
Ever better graphical production values don't come cheap

I'm going to have to challenge this idea considering graphical quality has hardly been increasing exponentially, and tools to use them are becoming cheaper and of increased productivity.

I mean have you seen the amount of content in Steam's various Workshops? That's made by complete amateurs in their free time. The assets are easier to make and easier to outsource. In the past trying to make a 3D object and animate it was a nightmare, now it's at a level open to anyone.

Cheap and widespread engine licensing means those assets made can more easily be brought together.

What is getting more expensive are things like marketing. I mean mass effect being advertised during the superbowl half-time? That's INSANELY expensive.

Publishers are playing crazy games with money, the simple expenditures in development match well with returns from business, especially over the long tail of sales if there is a long tail, such as with games sold on services with continuous discounting and price cuts such as Gog or Steam.

chiefohara:

irishda:
snip

You are on the ball with a lot of what you are saying, but the movie trailer anaolgy isn't really fair.

You watch a movie trailer, you know all that footage is going to be in the movie. The A:CM trailer showed a lot of stuff that wasn't in the game. Thats where the main fault is.

Unless the footage is from a deleted scene

Not an issue for me, I rarely buy games less than a year after they come out. I finally bought Bioshock a week ago.

Thus far I have pre-ordered:

-Dragon Age II
-Fable 3
-Dead Space 2
-Dishonored
-Mass Effect 3
-Dead Space 3
-Assassin's Creed: Revelations
-Assassin's Creed 3
-Kingdoms of Amalur: Reckoning

Not one of these games have made me lament my purhcase. I don't like some of them as much as I hoped I would, but I have yet to be dissappointed with a game that I made a pre-order on. I tend to pre-order games from series or publishers that I have consistently gotten good games from, though. Actually the games I've hated have been the ones I've picked out of bargain bins at EB Games. If they weren't on sale for like, $10 I wouldn't have bothered with them. There's some games you just KNOW are going to be bad looking at them...

AyaReiko:

Like I said, I know it won't happen, but name me one other industry other than the video game industry that's developed such an immense and callous disregard for its customers.

All American based industries hate their customers, especially foreign ones. No to mention that the Music and Movie industries are more politically corrupt than the Games industry.

Hey guys, I need your help: I need to know how to download Escapist videos for on-computer playback.

Because the sight of Jim slapping a game off his podium with a giant dildo required it becoming an animated .gif image the moment it came into existance.

Atmos Duality:
*chuckles*
So basically...Marketing is dishonest?
Yeah no shit, Jim.

His point that with such a degree of dishonesty it's been taken to with Colonial Marine it's clear that the industry could use a bit of reform.

I know I've said this before but this is your best video yet Jim, love it.

irishda:

chiefohara:

irishda:
snip

You are on the ball with a lot of what you are saying, but the movie trailer anaolgy isn't really fair.

You watch a movie trailer, you know all that footage is going to be in the movie. The A:CM trailer showed a lot of stuff that wasn't in the game. Thats where the main fault is.

Unless the footage is from a deleted scene

Deleted scene still comes on the dvd.

Also pretty big price difference between a 10 euro movie/dvd and a 60 Euro game.

So yeah... still not a fair analogy

Only thing I've ever preordered is the Witcher 2. Because DLC was promised free, and DRM free really floats my boat. Other than that, I'm happy to wait and see what the game's going to turn out like before I shell out cash. Usually wait until the price comes down a bit as well, season pass and DLC are bullshit. I still prefer the days of working demos and shareware, that was awesome.

irishda:

chiefohara:

irishda:
snip

You are on the ball with a lot of what you are saying, but the movie trailer anaolgy isn't really fair.

You watch a movie trailer, you know all that footage is going to be in the movie. The A:CM trailer showed a lot of stuff that wasn't in the game. Thats where the main fault is.

Unless the footage is from a deleted scene

But with A:CM It's like the trailer for the movie was showing a great, tense film with Morgan Freeman and Joseph Gordon Levitt, directed by Christopher Nolan. And then when you go to see the film it's actually starring Tyler Perry and Hayden Christensen, and is directed by Michael Bay. What that trailer showed was nothing of what you got in the game

Aardvaarkman:

Lord_Jaroh:
What's funny about all of those things is that if you are not happy with the final "product" you can take your product back for a refund...

Kickstarter is less like a pre-order and more of an investment, however.

You can get a refund on games you are not happy with... since when wasn't this the case? How is this different from the food situation?

Kickstarter is not an investment. You aren't buying shares in the company. You don't get any royalties or dividends if the project succeeds. I really don't understand what you're trying to say here, because it is doesn't match reality.

"Investment" does not have to equal monetary return. I am giving them money and in return, I will get a game from it, provided everything works out.

As well, if I purchase a shitty game, let's say Final Fantasy XIII, and I play through it and decide that I do not like this thing, trying to return it to Gamestop or wherever, they will look at me like I am inebriated and offer to purchase that used game off me...

After Dragon Age 2, I am not preordering anything until I read reviews of it.

Games I'm generally interested and excited about these days, I refuse to preorder now, thanks to Fable 3, Mass Effect 3, and Aliens which I ironically didn't preorder, I was just happy to hear I saved myself $60. Remember Me looks real good despite some goofiness, it reminds me of Oni which I loved as a kid. But I'm waiting for the reviews to come out the day after the game releases, I'm waiting to hear both critics and consumer/fan reaction. I can't afford to spend $60 on something that isn't going to entertainment when I can buy something $10 from two or three years ago. Yeah I probably already played it, but I know it's good.

No matter what cool things they put with the preorder and the special editions, for example the Tomb Raider special edition is looking awesome, but I've got a real strong feeling that game is going to fail, and fail hard. Stronger than the newbie Remember Me. Sorry, it doesn't settle well with me, a long time Tomb Raider fan, to hear multiple dudes working on this game and dudes advertising this game say things like, "men can't relate to women" and "we designed the game so men can feel like they are holding her hand and protecting her" and "she's in a situation where she might get raped!" The pictures and video look pretty for this game, but ever since those guys opened their mouths and the Lara started moaning and crying, I've been very judgmental.

And don't give me the whole, her behavior is realistic, they should do this with all heroes bs. That's the problem, people are open to accepting a woman behaving weak because that's been the norm in stories for a very long time. It would be revolutionary if they took a male character and put him in a weaken position, instead of letting him get old they should cut him back several years to fresh teens/early twenties. Make him where he's legit scared, screaming and crying for help, saying he doesn't think he's capable of doing something, and possibly under threat of rape. They wouldn't dare make such a game, because people believe it wouldn't seem realistic of a young man to behave that way, it takes away power fantasy play from the male player and they would call him too whiny and not touch the game.

irishda:

chiefohara:

irishda:
snip

You are on the ball with a lot of what you are saying, but the movie trailer anaolgy isn't really fair.

You watch a movie trailer, you know all that footage is going to be in the movie. The A:CM trailer showed a lot of stuff that wasn't in the game. Thats where the main fault is.

Unless the footage is from a deleted scene

Well it also shows a much higher quality of graphics and technology. Going into the code Aliens: CM apparently doesn't even support graphics cards newer than 5 years ago. Backround details like the alien twitching in a tank, and other things are missing, and while a lot of the same sequences exist, they have the cool bits like placing turrets and so on removed... combined with the aliens being unable to do a lot of the things (like wiggle through tight spaces and such) that were shown during the demo. It's not just missing scenes, but a whole level of quality and polish. We know what they promised was possible, they showed it to us, but they didn't deliver it.

It's sort of like going to see a movie trailer, and then finding out they couldn't afford the actors or FX for anything more than making the trailer, so they decided to do the entire movie with animated stick figures and family members of the producer filling in the voices.

Atmos Duality:
*chuckles*
So basically...Marketing is dishonest?
Yeah no shit, Jim.

Well the point is more than we shouldn't tolerate it anymore, since it's crossed a line it shouldn't have and done it enough to become a problem, rather than a shock about what it's doing per se.

Jim was sort of covering this in pointing out the outrageous lies by people like Peter Molyneux, and how we let it go, leading to things like what we're seeing with Aliens: CM.

Basically we need to start holding developers and publishers responsible for what the marketing people do. What's more in cases like Aliens: CM it's showing the developers being complicit with the marketing deceptions, something that has long been suspected, especially seeing as devs just luv to say "it wasn't us, it was marketing, blame them!". Of course we also saw the same thing with ME3 where the game developers and their statements were used for marketing and it turned out that they were lying, and what's more even released a documentary as an app admitting that the devs knew they were lying.

We shouldn't just sit back and accept this as being "the way things are" and letting people keep lying to us. One way of dealing with that is to stop pre-ordering games.

It is a rare game indeed that deserves to be bought at full pop. I don't understand why more people don't wait 3-4 months and get the game for at least $20, or more if it is a steam sale.

Be smart and save yourself some money.

Funny anecdote: I preordered exactly ONE game in the last ~15 years of gaming. It was good. It was scary. It was Aliens vs. Predator (PC, 1999). Oh, the irony!

Therumancer:

We shouldn't just sit back and accept this as being "the way things are" and letting people keep lying to us.

I don't accept nor tolerate it, but enough of the market has made it clear that they will.

Simple logic dictates, that the practical need for pre-orders dies with the advent of digital downloads, since the point of pre-orders wasn't to "support the developers" (which doesn't actually happen anyway) or "get extra goodies" (which they will gladly sell outside of pre-orders at a premium), but to reserve a copy of an (initially) limited stock of physical media.
Remove the need for physical media, and all that pre-orders exist for is marketing.

Believe me, I agree with you, but good luck convincing the masses to grow a spine and accept higher standards.

Grenge Di Origin:

His point that with such a degree of dishonesty it's been taken to with Colonial Marine it's clear that the industry could use a bit of reform.

Yeah, I've been preaching that line for years; well before Jimquisition ever existed.
The solution is remarkably simple, but most gamers lack self-control or any sort of understanding of marketing-manipulation UNTIL they get bit by such a scheme.

I could elaborate at great length about Trust as a commodity and its recent exploitation, but I'd just be wasting everyone's time.

TheSniperFan:

MagmaMan:
[...]As for Bioshock: Infinite the developers, Ken Levine in particular, has more then a decade of trust built up for him. System Shock 2 was and still is one of the best games ever made, and System Shock 1 while not as good was still one of the most terrifying games I've ever played as well as having the usual excellent story and at the least a "unique" atmosphere. Bioshock wasn't quite as amazing as System Shock 2 but still was incredible and I can tell you that just about nothing is going to stop me from getting Infinite because of how much of a fanboy I happen to be for the Shock games. The two franchises are two of the best the gaming medium has to offer and shame on anyone who hasn't played System Shock 2.

Is SS2 really that good?
Those games are from the time before I was a gamer. I've been playing some games from back then however, because neither the next Half-Life, nor the next Fallout are in sight and there weren't any releases lately that I really looked forward to.
I played Half-Life and loved it. I have recently purchased Deus Ex on Steam and will play it as soon as I have more time. SystemShock 2 is also often mentioned as one of the best games of that time. I don't own BioShock myself, but played it a bit years ago. Now it's on the first place of my Steam-wishlist and I will get it once it's on sale. I loved it back then.

I adore it for being so expertly put together. I also want to assure you I'm not saying this with Nostalgia Goggles on, I got into the game a while after I heard of Bioshock. Trust me, it's the better game. Cheaper too on GoG.com.

Only Game I've ever pre-ordered was Ni No Kuni after reading the brilliant review of one Jim Sterling
Thank God for him! (and later european releases for once)

As I buy most Games after they've already been released for quite a while, they sure need to earn my money (except for EA, who can continue to not try as far as I'm concerned, because I just don't see how they could convince me to ever buy what they publish again....but that's another story)

Also: That Ending with an MJ-interpretation "Aliens Song" was amazing...and almost heart-wrenching

*off to grinding while ignoring "neato"-remarks*

I somehow managed to buy Borderlands 2 from a store after it went on sale with the pre-order bonus content. Not sure how that happened. Did not pre-order Aliens Colonial Marines as I did not have the money in the first place, also thought it a bit suss they were already lowering the price before it came out.

Well, if you want them to stop doing that...
Gather an angry mob with torches and pitchforks, go to their studio, burn it down and run their hearts through with a wooden stake.

...Or was that for vampires?

Ken seems like a pretty cool guy.

RT @danrwilliams: @iglevine give me a reason to preorder. --Nope. I love it but I can't promise you will. We just make the best game we can.- Ken Levine (@IGLevine) February 20, 2013

TheSniperFan:

MagmaMan:
[...]As for Bioshock: Infinite the developers, Ken Levine in particular, has more then a decade of trust built up for him. System Shock 2 was and still is one of the best games ever made, and System Shock 1 while not as good was still one of the most terrifying games I've ever played as well as having the usual excellent story and at the least a "unique" atmosphere. Bioshock wasn't quite as amazing as System Shock 2 but still was incredible and I can tell you that just about nothing is going to stop me from getting Infinite because of how much of a fanboy I happen to be for the Shock games. The two franchises are two of the best the gaming medium has to offer and shame on anyone who hasn't played System Shock 2.

Is SS2 really that good?
Those games are from the time before I was a gamer. I've been playing some games from back then however, because neither the next Half-Life, nor the next Fallout are in sight and there weren't any releases lately that I really looked forward to.
I played Half-Life and loved it. I have recently purchased Deus Ex on Steam and will play it as soon as I have more time. SystemShock 2 is also often mentioned as one of the best games of that time. I don't own BioShock myself, but played it a bit years ago. Now it's on the first place of my Steam-wishlist and I will get it once it's on sale. I loved it back then.

If you don't mind dated graphics then SS2 is damned excellent. I actually wasn't that keen on Bioshock, I found it painfully lacking, linear and not at all scary. Sure it was wierd, but both gmaes have that in abundance. SS2 genuinely freaked me out, it just has this amazing atmosphere and the story progresses so much better, more through experiences, rather than just recordings, despite the fact that the map is more open to exploration. Also, The Many.

Can we please make something more out of this episode? A movie maybe?
The hatred, the love, the intrigue and loyalty, the drama and tragic towards the end, the roars of despise and the bitter-sweet song of loss. This had everything! I'm so touched.

On topic: You are absolutely right, as always of course. I have never pre-ordered any game, or anything by that matter until now and i think i haven't lost anything by doing so. The way game-developers & publishers use "hype" right now is, ehm, "interesting"?! I don't want to say it is utter shit, because those who get hyped are just as part of it as those who utilize it and honestly, while i'm seldom hyped, sometimes it just happens. For me, lately it happened with Skyrim and Dishonored and while both aren't perfect, i was not disapointed. I'm also more or less hyped on Bioshock Infinite, as it was already brought up as another example which is hyped right now but hard to predict if it can stand up to this hype. I loved Biosock and B2 and even tried some Systemshock 2 in between, loved all of it and therefore want Infinite to succeed in this series, but at the same time i got an eye on most of the trailers and stuff and became skeptical, if some of the bigger changes - like giving the protagonist an actual face and character and by that maybe cutting the focus on the ideas presented throughout the game - will be for better or worse. And while i haven't preordered it, it is likely i will get it rather soon after it hits the stores. Will have to see if i really want this series to continue or not and if i will praise or rant on the developers for riding the hype train on that one.
However, i'm starting to wonder if the game-industry, or the majority of the entertainment industry for that matter, might need another breakdown to realize, that the ways it is run now might not be "the best".

And as always, an amen and thank god for you, Jim.

tell me if this sounds stupid. You want me to pay you for something that you have not completed, can't show me even a prototype of said product, and it won't be finished for at least a full year from today!? And yes there are people stupid enough to have actually done that, just ask your local gametop rep

The last time I was going to pre-order a game was when Starcraft 2 was coming out, but then I canceled it because of their complete bullshit Bnet thing and other restrictions.

This loss of trust has been going on longer than that though. It should have always been that they make the money for making a great product, not us getting swindled and treated like thieves because of all their shitty excuses. I still can't believe how bland all the media has become these days.

wolfyrik:

If you don't mind dated graphics then SS2 is damned excellent. I actually wasn't that keen on Bioshock, I found it painfully lacking, linear and not at all scary. Sure it was wierd, but both gmaes have that in abundance. SS2 genuinely freaked me out, it just has this amazing atmosphere and the story progresses so much better, more through experiences, rather than just recordings, despite the fact that the map is more open to exploration. Also, The Many.

Having just played through SS2 recently (finished it last night)..
It's actually quite linear in places; not nearly to the same degree as Bioshock (which also had open-ended stages, actually. It just seems more linear if all you do is blindly follow the objective arrow), but with the exception of the Operations and Recreation decks, most of the game is linear or looped.

Incredible game though. It can be ball-crushingly difficult too; compared to Bioshock's complete lack of difficulty.

kajinking:
OK First off at the end there I really half expected Jim to break out some bagpipes or something and give the alien a proper Spock funeral (Althought I doubt Jim just happens to know how to play bagpipes or even own any)

(snip)

To be be more OT I have to wonder if any of the other developers are watching this situation or are even concerned by it? I'd think that a massive wave of anti-preorder feelings might get their attention. Think they might do anything diffrent in it's wake?

I was expecting something more along the lines of this:

And to respond to your OT: Not necessarily. A lack of preorder purchases won't hurt a good game at all, since people will just wise up and buy it later (And it won't even be on sale! Can you believe that?) If the people all speak together, then maybe, MAYBE, developers will quit trying underhanded tactics to get people to pre-order terrible games like this, but they'll still do pre-orders for pretty much every game even if pre-orders decrease. They'll just change the tactics a little bit.

As far as my OT: I can say that pre-orders are extremely rare for me. I think I can list all of the pre-orders I ever made:
LittleBigPlanet 2 (It was a collectors edition even.) I was confident in their abilities, and I was a big enough fan that I probably would have gotten it unless it was absolute and total trash. (it was not)

Patapon (1, 2, and 3 even.) These were all 5 dollar pre-orders, not full pre-orders. Admittedly I did it mostly for the extra content (which they ended up releasing for free a couple days before the launch each time anyways) The "extra content" was a demo that you'd get an extra in-game item for beating. Usually either a spear or a decent hat.

My only real transgression would be pre-ordering Quantum Conundrum. It was largely for the slight price decrease and the TF2 items. I was admittedly caught up in just the same hype as everyone else. I mean, it was a puzzle game by one of the minds behind Portal, and the concept sounded just great! Thankfully it still turned out pretty good (enough that it was worth 15 dollars anyways).

Atmos Duality:

wolfyrik:

If you don't mind dated graphics then SS2 is damned excellent. I actually wasn't that keen on Bioshock, I found it painfully lacking, linear and not at all scary. Sure it was wierd, but both gmaes have that in abundance. SS2 genuinely freaked me out, it just has this amazing atmosphere and the story progresses so much better, more through experiences, rather than just recordings, despite the fact that the map is more open to exploration. Also, The Many.

Having just played through SS2 recently (finished it last night)..
It's actually quite linear in places; not nearly to the same degree as Bioshock (which also had open-ended stages, actually. It just seems more linear if all you do is blindly follow the objective arrow), but with the exception of the Operations and Recreation decks, most of the game is linear or looped.

Incredible game though. It can be ball-crushingly difficult too; compared to Bioshock's complete lack of difficulty.

I don't doubt that you're right. Rose tinted lenses and all that. I think for me the tho, it's more personal taste. Elements that were in SS2 which didn't appear in Bioshock, so small that no oensel would really notice them individually, but for me the the lack of the many just pushed it over the edge.

Don't get me wrong, Bioshock is an amazing piece of work in it's own right, good story, well designed enemies and a beautiful world to explore, it just wasn't quite what I was hoping. The pschological effect of the many, the nannies were much more horrific to me. I think it's the fact that these things you were fighting, were once people, transformed against their will and their minds enslaved. Recordings and visions made you feel sorry for what they had become, empathise with them even, which is profoundly horrific. It's the Same reason the Borg and Cyber-men are such popular enemies. Whereas the splicers, most of them were dicks who turned themselves into super-powered, crazy dicks. It just doesn't have the same impact.

Anyways this is waaaaay off topic. Sorry.

As for the Avp2010/A:CM comparison vids, I didn't remember how great AvP looked in multiplayer or realise how bad A:CM was til I saw the comparison of MP mode. My heart just sank further. I've got and played through both games, but it wasn't til seeing them side by side that the true blasphemy of A:CM really hit me.

Dissapointed!!!

Preorder, don't prepurchase. If you want the extra bells and whistles of the bonuses or just the fact you know you can walk into a store and buy it. ((fire emblem awakening was sold out for weeks till finally restocked ;p))

You can always cancel the preorder later and at worse they will hold the bonus and game for AT LEAST 48 hours, long enough for review embargos to lift and to watch some guy streaming it on twitch.

But ya screw season passes, if your not giving me something RIGHT NOW it's wasting time.

This is why only pre-order from publishers I 120% trust. CD Projekt Red and Valve come to mind.

This video has made me think about games I've pre-ordered. All have been for this generation:

Alan Wake - Loved it. Bought based on Remedy's Max Payne games.
Bioshock 2 - Mildly disappointed. Bought based on previous game.
Mass Effect 3 - Mostly liked it. Bought based on previous games.
Max Payne 3- Loved it. See Alan Wake.
Resident Evil 5 - Liked it. Sold by a pre-release demo.

Curently have a pre-order on GTA V.

I tend to pre-order only if I trust a developer/publisher or have good experiences from previous games in the same series. I tend to be way of unproven IPs.

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