The Big Picture: Enough With The Batman Already!

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They have Batman. An Superman played by Reeves. Thats as far as the DC series of comic book movies goes. The rest are unknown to most of the public. Most of the DC characters are just uninteresting or just to strong and powerful to be pointless. I dont think DC should even try a JL movie, it will fail miserably because no one gives a crap about any of them apart from Superman and Batman. A new Batman could suck, and if Superman fails in the boxoffice then just kill the idea of a JL movie.

TwiZtah:

-Dragmire-:

TwiZtah:
Yes please, I fucking hate Batman.

He might be the biggest villain in the DC universe, because he KNOWS that The Joker etc. will escape from Arkham and kill more people, therefore he is also indirectly responsible for those killings.

Couldn't you extend that complaint to commissioner Gordon and all police who Batman gives custody of the Joker to?

Batman has so much more power to just kill the fuckers, but nooo, "MY PARENTS DIED :'(". Fucking get in line, 95% of all damn superheroes has lost their parents. Oh, on that note, I'm disgusted by them and their unability to just end the villains.

When dealing with the Joker, a gun is just as efficient. A cop might say, "It's my job to apprehend you and not kill you" but Batman could say the same thing, just with less justification due to the whole vigilante angle.

mrseriousguy:

I have to agree with Bob on the there is too much Batman. I love Bats but come on there are so many other characters and there are Heroes who are detective and are good at infiltrating and intimidation; The Question, Martian Manhunter and even the Flash(He's got a brain in there). The Only reason you don't see them much is the focus for any detective story seems to be Batman is the "Worlds Greatest" everyone else isn't good enough to highlight. Just keep Writing him and other characters into molds that needs to be broken.

This is probably my biggest issue with a segment of Bat's more extreme fans, and unfortunately it includes some comic writers, the idea that coolness is a zero-sum game. It's not enough that Batman be cool, he has to be cooler then everyone else, and actively make them less cool. he can't just work alongside Superman, he has to be able to beat him; he has to have more will then any Green Lantern and so on.

please don't suck, please don't suck, please.... hahaha

Yeah, After watching all (currently available) "young justice", Red Hood, Both Green lantern animated, JLA:DOOM... I can say... it's hard to top the animated stuff, I think the movies of the DCs are just not good enough, they are so afraid to let their imagination run.... I for one didn't like the new BatMan "realistic approach" reboot... it's less batman, more... I know not what that was... even X-men redeems them selves with "first class"... well... please don't suck any more... DC.... or I'll just have to stick with "I like Marvel more anyways..."

On the contrary. I think Batman is the LEAST likely to be put in auto-pilot. He is the character most people are interested to see, and the only one with profitable movies in recent history on his belt. If it wasn't because WB didn't anticipated the success of the Nolan version and the avengers movies, I would have guess Batman would be their advance franchise to justify having a JL movie. Instead, they are putting all their hopes in the Superman movie, because its the only other character they seem to get right once in a while...

That doesn't change the fact that part of the charm of the Avengers movies was to see all the characters being played by their respective actors from movies in recent history. As such (and I haven't kept in touch with casting news for this movie), but I hope they are saving a pretty big check for Bale and another one for Nolan, because if those two are not involved in the next movie, all the marketing in the world won't save it.

If anything, most other characters are allowed to be on auto-pilot a lot more. I don't expect Martian Manhunter and Wonder Woman being more defined than "I am like Superman, but green/woman", so I don't expect more than 10 minutes will be dedicated to those characters.

In other words, I am too a little bit tired that the only character that seems to be in any way relevant to WB, DC movies and the JL in general is Batman; but they can only blame themselves for that, and it would take them a lot of years for them to make the public care about anything new so, if they want to make a JL movie before even Avengers become irrelevant, they are going to use current Batman, current Superman and introduce a bunch of other characters; and the movie will be called "Batman and his Superfriends"...

NathanS:

mrseriousguy:

I have to agree with Bob on the there is too much Batman. I love Bats but come on there are so many other characters and there are Heroes who are detective and are good at infiltrating and intimidation; The Question, Martian Manhunter and even the Flash(He's got a brain in there). The Only reason you don't see them much is the focus for any detective story seems to be Batman is the "Worlds Greatest" everyone else isn't good enough to highlight. Just keep Writing him and other characters into molds that needs to be broken.

This is probably my biggest issue with a segment of Bat's more extreme fans, and unfortunately it includes some comic writers, the idea that coolness is a zero-sum game. It's not enough that Batman be cool, he has to be cooler then everyone else, and actively make them less cool. he can't just work alongside Superman, he has to be able to beat him; he has to have more will then any Green Lantern and so on.

recently That's John's lame writing to be quite honest, when it comes to Batman he teeters on both sides of the spectrum making him either inadequate compared to the rest or overly awesome to roll your eyes point of things.
Not to hate on the guy or anything, other righter, even the good ones do this from time to time.

I guess when someone like Batman stands shoulder to shoulder with gods he NEEDS to seem more exceptional.

what I think some writers should try to do is ring home the sad truth that no one should want to be Batman, he is quite a tragic guy when you think about it :P

Re: Don't suck. Yeah, I'd have to second you on that. The problem is, as you've pointed out, Warner Brothers has shown no clue in how to produce superhero movies except for the Batman series. I guess that's not surprising. I can't believe I'm about to say this, but of all DC's heroes, Batman is probably the most realistic. He's not an alien, he wasn't hit by a bolt of lightning and a bunch of chemicals, he's not already dead. The problem I think WB has had with the other superheroes is that they just don't know what to do with them.

I'm hoping Superman and (if we ever see it) the Justice League don't suck as well, but I'm not taking any bets.

Red X:
recently That's John's lame writing to be quite honest, when it comes to Batman he teeters on both sides of the spectrum making him either inadequate compared to the rest or overly awesome to roll your eyes point of things.
Not to hate on the guy or anything, other righter, even the good ones do this from time to time.

I guess when someone like Batman stands shoulder to shoulder with gods he NEEDS to seem more exceptional.

what I think some writers should try to do is ring home the sad truth that no one should want to be Batman, he is quite a tragic guy when you think about it :P

It goes back much further then Johns. The flood gates to it started as early as "The Dark Knight Returns" which I know a few people who were big fans of bats LOVED to bring up because "Batman is cooler then Superman because he's human, also he's so cool he can beat Superman! See says so right in this comic!" Morrison add by "creating" "prep-time" with his comments about being able to beat Galactus and Waid cemented the whole thing with "Tower of Babel."

exobook:
Yes your right bob, but since the only other superhero they tried failed (Green Lantern) I suspect they view Batman as their only card at the moment that they can sell the movie to the public at the moment (Superman is at the moment an unknown and all their other superhero projects are either in development or unreleased).

The result is they have to sell it on Batman because that the only thing the accountants can see as selling.

Eh, I hated Green Lantern the movie, but did the character fail or did the movie? They never used him correctly (Hal Jordan in comics is Cocky and sure, Hal Jordan in the movie ran from everything and was a wuss), the Green Lantern battles were horrible. It could have done something, but it was like they purposefully wanted to mess it up to say "SEE?! THIS IS WHAT HAPPENS WHEN WE TRY SOMETHING NEW!! NOW WHERE ARE MY 17 NEW BATMAN PROJECTS?!"

ThrobbingEgo:

LadyRhian:
I was trying to think about what villain WB could bring to the table that could be powerful enough to take on the entire Justice League... and the only thing I came up with is Darkseid, And Batman dealing with Darkseid would be like nipples on a Batsuit-unnecessary, as well as outclassed.

Quick question: Do you know who Batman is? Due to writers compensating for putting the guy in a batsuit on a team with demigods, Batman has become the most feared and ruthless hero of DC's entire roster. His power is being the goddamn Batman.

And that's why I'm so glad that people are starting to call Batman out on his ridiculousness. The 'Iron Will' Schtick might as well just be called a super power because of how it just bends the fabric of reality now. He won't fail because he won't allow it. His back won't break from being bitch slapped through a really thick stone pillar because is presence of mind is stronger than physics?

And yet, supposedly Batman never takes a life. Yet people are always scared that he will. I mean, people call Superman out that he'll never do anything to them more serious than a pummeling. Then they'll cower to Batman... who will never do anything serious than a pummeling.

Batman has the best power of them all. He has the Authors and the Fans behind him. So he will never lose. He can will his body to maintain it's peak muscle efficiency even though I can't remember the last time he worked out (and as a personal trainer, that always bugged the hell out of me), he can always somehow move just a bit faster than people who can move at light speed to take out just the thing that he prepared ahead of time in case this happened... He's Mary Sue, the character. I love the games, I love the comics when he's in Gotham and he isn't dealing with Beyond Gods, but when he's out of Gotham, he gets ridiculous.

Captcha: try the Booyah way!

Fuck right, you creepy sentient programming! What about Cyborg?! BOOYAH!!

I completely agree with Bob, with a caveat. WE as geeks would be unfair to any up coming movies with Batman in, the general public wouldn't care. I'm fairly convinced that they would simply be eager to see some one else play Batman and the Joker again to see whether he does live up to Ledger.

NathanS:

Red X:
recently That's John's lame writing to be quite honest, when it comes to Batman he teeters on both sides of the spectrum making him either inadequate compared to the rest or overly awesome to roll your eyes point of things.
Not to hate on the guy or anything, other righter, even the good ones do this from time to time.

I guess when someone like Batman stands shoulder to shoulder with gods he NEEDS to seem more exceptional.

what I think some writers should try to do is ring home the sad truth that no one should want to be Batman, he is quite a tragic guy when you think about it :P

It goes back much further then Johns. The flood gates to it started as early as "The Dark Knight Returns" which I know a few people who were big fans of bats LOVED to bring up because "Batman is cooler then Superman because he's human, also he's so cool he can beat Superman! See says so right in this comic!" Morrison add by "creating" "prep-time" with his comments about being able to beat Galactus and Waid cemented the whole thing with "Tower of Babel."

I know, i only meant recent but i agree.
People forget that in TDKR Batman had luck planning and Superman... "good" nature on his side, fandom needs to remember half of what Morrison says isn't meant to be taken seriously, i've met him, he's insane :P
Tower of Babel? I'll give you that in the book (and JL: Doom) it's made pretty clear he can only do what he did as individuals together he'd have no chance :)

Every now again writers do calm down or bring things into perspective, for instance Batman: Hush. Loeb makes it clear under different circumstances even at his peak Batman still had no chance against Superman.

I just want a good Wonder Woman well, anything, before I shuffle off this mortal coil in roughly 50 odd years.

Today's Big Picture Topic:
Superman Fanboy complains about superior character's attention-grabbing anti-charisma.

I would personally love to see a Plastic Man movie....but that's just me.

If they're smart, the only thing we'll see of "Batman" in the first movie is a piece of equipment in the Justice League headquarters (being built at the end of the movie) that's labeled "Wayne Enterprises". That way they guarantee themselves a sequel.

I'm OK with taking a cinematic break from Batman, since Man of Steel id going to look like WB learned their lesson and figured out how to make a GOOD superhero movie. You only need to have the bare minimum of Batman in the Justice League flick, and you may not even have to say he's Bruce Wayne. Give everyone on the team, whoever that may be, their one "hell yeah" moment.
At first I thought Bob was pointing out a problem with the many comics starring Batman and spinoff characters, but that's another story.

Thank you Bob, that needed to be said. I agree with you completely when it comes to giving other characters more exposure, and especially on the "Please don't suck" part.

Blasphemy! Ive got a fever and only 2 things can cure me. More batman and more cowbell!

I agree with Bob on so many things and I love how passionate he can be. Which is why I hate it when I disagree. What's worse is, this was a lazy episode of Big Picture. I'm pretty sure he spent five minutes asking "Do we really need Batman?" in as many different ways as he could, instead of offering his usual insightful opinions.

Anyway, Batman... I love Batman. lots of people love Batman. He makes money and if you just throw him in there there's a risk of losing money. Sure, everyone knows who he is but you have to give him some flesh.

I'm a bit fed up of people hating on Batman in this way. I'm fine with folk not liking him, that's fine! Fine! It's not liking him because he's overexposed or because he has no superpowers or because his main thing is thinking ahead that bothers me. Batman is kind of a genius. Not even kind of. He IS a genius. He has plans with how to deal with every super being known to man, he's an expert fighter- ah, you know the rest.

If at any time he comes off as a prick or a little too smart (to the point of Deus Ex Machina) it's down to the writers. Whether you like it or not, Batman still has the potential to be a character full of life, mystery and badassery.

Also, Batman has a huge rogue's gallery that is untapped by Hollywood or anywhere else other than the comics. The only thing that I like the look of with the new CG show is the fact they use unknown bad guys. Batman regularly deals with Psychos, supervillains and so on that aren't given any mention. They don't HAVE to use the Joker, they never do. All they need to do is use one of the other villains. Zsaz, Scarface, Anarky, etc.

I can see why people don't like him. On the surface he's a rich boy who beats on poor people and that's what they stick with. I mean, he's also obsessive, filled with rage, self destructive, etc. He's had more tragedy than having his folks shot, you know. But I know folks who don't like him because he's miserable. I'd prefer that than the other stuff. Saying you don't like him because his real talent is his intelligence is silly.

I'm not questioning Bob's knowledge of Batman and I'm not saying this is how he sees the character but a lot of people do see that. I also realise that Bob's major grudge here is the overthinking of Batsy in the JL film; I kind of agree there. His origin has recently been set up in the movie-verse so that's covered. Personally, I don't think they should do one at all. Marvel set out to do this, WB is just doing it to catch up. I'd rather see a Flash movie first. I really would. DC does have a huge stable of heroes that need exposure. I just get worked up when Batman hate comes up. Not even hate, just criticisms that I find pointless or unfounded. Sorry for the pointless rant.

Yep think Batman is about used up. I for one want to see a female super hero get the spotlight for a while and who better than Wonder Woman, if only their were hope of her movie not being shit though.

"Yes Mistress"... heh. That's good.

ObsidianJones:
And that's why I'm so glad that people are starting to call Batman out on his ridiculousness. The 'Iron Will' Schtick might as well just be called a super power because of how it just bends the fabric of reality now. He won't fail because he won't allow it. His back won't break from being bitch slapped through a really thick stone pillar because is presence of mind is stronger than physics?

And yet, supposedly Batman never takes a life. Yet people are always scared that he will. I mean, people call Superman out that he'll never do anything to them more serious than a pummeling. Then they'll cower to Batman... who will never do anything serious than a pummeling.

Batman has the best power of them all. He has the Authors and the Fans behind him. So he will never lose. He can will his body to maintain it's peak muscle efficiency even though I can't remember the last time he worked out (and as a personal trainer, that always bugged the hell out of me), he can always somehow move just a bit faster than people who can move at light speed to take out just the thing that he prepared ahead of time in case this happened... He's Mary Sue, the character. I love the games, I love the comics when he's in Gotham and he isn't dealing with Beyond Gods, but when he's out of Gotham, he gets ridiculous.

Captcha: try the Booyah way!

Fuck right, you creepy sentient programming! What about Cyborg?! BOOYAH!!

People mistake that "Iron Will" for silliness. It's a mental illness, man. That's what Bats is all about. He's obsessive comulsive. That's why they fear him.

Superheroes fear him because they know he's a genius. Also, he has access to their weaknesses and has the ability to kill them if he needs to. The fear of Bats snapping is the same as the fear of Supes snapping. He's insane and dangerous. He's spent nearly all his life becoming that.

Although, yeah, he's not as cool outside of Gotham with the Gods and stuff. That's lazy writing, though. All the best Bat stories are self contained and set in Gotham City.

Yeah, I agree. I've kinda had my fill of Batman.

ninjaRiv:

Superheroes fear him because they know he's a genius. Also, he has access to their weaknesses and has the ability to kill them if he needs to.

Except, they surely know by now that, he won't.

He won't even murder the person that killed one of his robin's, and he's not even super-powered.

Personally, I would like Batman to take a more behind the scenes role.
He finds a way to deactivate the Deus Ex, he gets the vital Intel, he turns the tide with a well placed gadget, but leaves fighting the actual big bad to the super-powered once.

That's not to say he can't have his action scenes, I bet they can pull off a great few with henchmen, or even a Mini-boss, while gathering this stuff. But don't have him standing next to Superman duo-punching the badguy like they're equals in strength.

Honestly, there's one path for Wonder Woman that makes complete and utter sense if you think about it. Superman's called "The Big Blue Boy Scout." Yet in a way, he always has to hold back with that due to the secret identity. Wonder Woman, however? Do the isolated island. Do the fish out of water thing. But also do the "doesn't need a secret identity" angle. Friend to all, she could be a truly unhampered 'girl scout'.

And if you want a suit up sequence for her, give her the golden armor.

How about a Red Hood movie?

Ranorak:

ninjaRiv:

Superheroes fear him because they know he's a genius. Also, he has access to their weaknesses and has the ability to kill them if he needs to.

Except, they surely know by now that, he won't.

He won't even murder the person that killed one of his robin's, and he's not even super-powered.

Personally, I would like Batman to take a more behind the scenes role.
He finds a way to deactivate the Deus Ex, he gets the vital Intel, he turns the tide with a well placed gadget, but leaves fighting the actual big bad to the super-powered once.

That's not to say he can't have his action scenes, I bet they can pull off a great few with henchmen, or even a Mini-boss, while gathering this stuff. But don't have him standing next to Superman duo-punching the badguy like they're equals in strength.

I think people forget that comics work a little differently. The time periods and such are different, you know? We've seen him almost use his contingency plans a whole lot but the characters have not die to retcons, the passage of fictional time, etc. His contigency plans are better when left as a threat, rather than something he actively uses, though. I think that goes along with the thing about his best stories being away from the JL.

Yeah, the equals punching thing is silly.

Have you checked out Dark Knight returns? That's a pretty good example of how Batman can snap, how he can rebuld and how he can deal with Superman.

How's about we just have batman doing the deus ex machina thing like what the Hulk did for The Avengers movie.

Okay, now that may be derogatory and flat, but let me lay it out in detail: Batman is the dude that hates working with people, especially other people who are really prone to causing a lot of collateral damage (like Superman and what not), so we instead have him constantly being pestered and searched for by the Justice League, maybe even talking to him through a computer screen or something like that, but no matter what he won't join them. Batman will be played up as the dude who's done his time and maybe might give tech crap to 'The League' at one point or another, but then, right when the third act is climaxing and it seems as if it will turn to shit for all the non-pessimistic characters, suddenly: BATMAN.

He shows up, does some crazy martial arts/science stuff, they win, and then everyone gets cake.

Now, doesn't that seem like just enough Batman for us? I mean, come on, I haven't heard so much as a murmur or moan about people like The Flash for years in the movie business, how about when we have the Big B. sulking for 5/6ths of the movie, we see some cool stuff and story on the other characters? It'd be nice!

Even better is that it wouldn't create the need for another string of movies!

ninjaRiv:
All the best Bat stories are self contained and set in Gotham City.

not true in the slightest, Morrison JLA run especially the Promethium arc, Tower of Babel was good too and a few more like with the Outsiders.
People always remember the extremes and forget the good examples.

Loved the "Space Jesus, Human Sonic-the Hedgehog, Yes Mistress" bit.
I think they should have some costumed but otherwise human investigators helping the main justice league, with Batman helping them rather than being part of the core team.
DC does need to diversify things a bit. They should also try introducing other less well know characters through the main characters films, like Marvel did with Hawkeye and BlackWidow.

Red X:

ninjaRiv:
All the best Bat stories are self contained and set in Gotham City.

not true in the slightest, Morrison JLA run especially the Promethium arc, Tower of Babel was good too and a few more like with the Outsiders.
People always remember the extremes and forget the good examples.

I actually can't stand the majority of Morrison's work, mostly his superhero stuff, so I personally disagree with you there. I was speaking more in personal opinion.

shadowmagus:
1) I actually agree with Bob that maybe it is time to put Batman away for awhile and lets try making GOOD (and I emphasis that word) movies for the other characters in the DC canon.

2) I disagree that Batman has nothing to bring to the table. The truth is that in many cases, Batman is capable of doing what the others heroes can't or won't do. Make no mistake, in that little list of super humans Bob rattled off, none of them are a half-decent detective and I wouldn't trust any of them to do any kind of real infiltration. Sorry Bob, but just because you're tired of him doesn't mean he isn't one of the most important parts of the Justice League for more then just "being Batman".

Absolutely correct. Also, I don't the movies have done a great job at making Batman a gazillionare and a dubious job at making him a detective. He should be able to use his brain to solve a problem instead of just gadgets. But yeah, there is an amazing stable of characters they could weave some rock'n stories around.

Also, while I realize that Aquaman's weirdest power is of limited use when interacting in the surface world, I think he'd make a heck of a movie if done right. Where he'd be a tough character to develop for a major series he'd have the possibility for some major 2-3 hour set-piece stories.

ninjaRiv:

Red X:

ninjaRiv:
All the best Bat stories are self contained and set in Gotham City.

not true in the slightest, Morrison JLA run especially the Promethium arc, Tower of Babel was good too and a few more like with the Outsiders.
People always remember the extremes and forget the good examples.

I actually can't stand the majority of Morrison's work, mostly his superhero stuff, so I personally disagree with you there. I was speaking more in personal opinion.

Fair enough :)

I find it a little sad how WB (not giving them full credit) can get most if not all of the DCU right and film just staggers along (you van make the same argument with the DCnu but i digress). DC have so many untapped heroes that would easily go into film. How the hell did they F-up Jonah Hex? Geez, give it to Tarantino at this rate.

image
Jack Knight 4TW!

Is Bob seriously not aware of the "Bat Embargo" that has plagued the animated Batmen for YEARS?!

Character I really want to see in a JLA movie? Zatanna.

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