The Big Picture: Enough With The Batman Already!

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ThrobbingEgo:

immortalfrieza:

They already tried that, behold the result:
image
...and it turned out to be one of the most universally reviled superhero movies in existance.

The fact is, nobody wants an Adam Westing Batman anymore.

I suppose you aren't a fan of Batman Brave and The Bold? It's 70% campy Silver Age Comic weirdness, 30% and continuity nods.

Figured somebody would counter with Batman Brave and the Bold. BBB is good because it calls back to the Silver Age comics and the Adam West show and the campyness of it, but at the same time it has it's serious moments to balance it out. The Silver Age comics and the AW show go completely overboard with their campyness and weirdness, and it's impossible to get invested in anything that happens as a result.

shadowmagus:
1) I actually agree with Bob that maybe it is time to put Batman away for awhile and lets try making GOOD (and I emphasis that word) movies for the other characters in the DC canon.

2) I disagree that Batman has nothing to bring to the table. The truth is that in many cases, Batman is capable of doing what the others heroes can't or won't do. Make no mistake, in that little list of super humans Bob rattled off, none of them are a half-decent detective and I wouldn't trust any of them to do any kind of real infiltration. Sorry Bob, but just because you're tired of him doesn't mean he isn't one of the most important parts of the Justice League for more then just "being Batman".

Actually, the Martian Manhunter (J'onn J'onzz)'s human identity was a detective, the Barry Allen Flash was a "police scientist" (later revealed to be a forensic scientist), and the Question was an investigative journalist so they ARE half-decent detectives

Ironically even in the comics, Batman's detective skills are near the bottom of 'things we effectively use' pile and sometimes he comes off as stupid. Tower of Babel saga aka Justice League: Doom‎ case in point--you have this database on your fellow Leaguers and you do NOT have a system that tells you if the files are accessed without your knowledge in place? Let the face palming begin.

As for "real infiltration" the Martian Manhunter was doing it for decades (pretending to be a human) and via his telepathic powers could impersonate a person the crooks KNOW...something Batman could have a problem with. Wally West Flash was able to pretend to be Barry's arch enemy Professor Zoom (Reverse Flash) for a while and in the comics Superman has taken on MANY identities (usually without knowing who he really is) and fooling everyone in the process! In the comics he has been the President of the United States (Action Comics Vol 1 #371), a professional wrestler (Action Comics Vol 1 #372), Public Enemy #1 (Action Comics Vol 1 #374), and I think you get the idea. And all these successful impersonations were him without actually trying!

I think the real reason for Batman being the go to DC character is that of all the main members of the League he is the cheapest to put off in terms of abilities (his gadgets are another story).

They're going to do more Batman, because Batman is the only real blockbuster character DC has.
Outside of Batman and Robin, the films are quite successful.

But how about some of those other big hitters in DC?

Superman? We had Smallville, and it's a miracle that such insipid mediocrity went on as long as it did.
The last "good" thing (least mediocre/offensive) involving Superman that I can think of in film, was Lois and Clark.

Green Lantern? complete disaster. (and it blows my mind how badly they fucked up; I saw the cartoon movie First Flight that predated the live action film, and it was actually quite good overall)

Wonder Woman? Did you SEE the aborted pilot episode for that series? ABORTED disaster.

I don't know what it is but they just cannot seem to get anyone but Batman right.
Marvel had to salvage their film reputation to get to The Avengers, but they managed it.
(Elecktra, Daredevil, Hulk, X-Men 3, X-Men Origins: Wolverine...)

Does anyone at DC really care? I mean, they don't HAVE to make any more of those films just because Marvel is cleaning house. Given the half-hearted attempt we saw to cash in with Green Lantern (a well-funded, CGI flop), I thinking "no".

You know what? MOAR BATMAN!

I love the Batman and there should be more Batman.

I'd prefer for DC to continue their stellar releases of animated adaptations to ACTUAL comic book stories than a live action movie. Let Marvel have the live action since nobody wants to just simply adapt a already workable and complete story from the comics and make up their own stuff.

Imagine if a JL movie was adapted from the first arc from the current JL comic or if the next Batman movie was adapted from the first arc in detective comics or even the court of the owls arc. Just do what the JL cartoon did or the comic and dont worry about origin stories and characterize the heroes as you go along.

ThrobbingEgo:

How about Jason and the Argonauts? The 'normal guy who leads an army of demigods' isn't exactly a new trend.

Too true. You could even compare Batman's ubiquitous use of 'comic book technology' to Jason's own frequent use of magical artifacts.

ThrobbingEgo:

Aside from Bane and The Joker, Batman has R'as Al Ghul, a villain who has greater resources, comparable intelligence, and is still dangling the Wayne family on his strings. I'd say R'as is Batman's Moriarty.

That's a fair call. But lets look at the superheroes that have managed to remain popular long enough into the current period to break out onto the silver screen and make it big in Hollywood.

Batman - A very intelligent bat-themed ninja, who masquerades as a trust fund raised billionaire playboy.
Ironman - A second-generation genius, who is not only scientist but also engineered his own suit of powered armour.
The Hulk - Yet another tormented scientific genius, who turns into a literally unstoppable green rage monster when he loses his cool.
Thor - An arrogant and obnoxious bully of an overgrown child finally grows up, who was and still is almost as thick as the hammer he wields. Spends almost all of his screen time between Thor and The Avengers trying to redeem his far more intelligent, slightly-deranged younger brother.
Spiderman - A nerdy, shy and awkward high school boy is blessed with awesome after being accidentally bitten by a special spider that grants superpowers.

Seeing a common thread that links this lot together? Only X-men (Read: Mostly Wolverine, but on the other hand they did heavily feature Magneto and Professor X who are definitely no slouches when it comes down to intelligence. But mostly Wolverine.) and Captain America really seem to buck the trend when it comes to the modern superhero genre's obsession with smarts.

I am glad I am not the only one, and judging by the comments I am one of many, that is done with the Batman and would like to see any other DC character get a little of the big screen treatment. If they do a JLA film Batman will have to make an appearance so that is that sorted. Now just try make one of your other characters work, maybe reboot Green Lantern? Also the TV show Arrow seems popular so give him a feature film?

I don't know, I just loved the JLA comics growing up, especially Kingdom Come, and would love to see a film that could recreate the same feeling. But at this point I feel Batman is being milked and am quite frankly getting tired of him.

maximara:

shadowmagus:
1) I actually agree with Bob that maybe it is time to put Batman away for awhile and lets try making GOOD (and I emphasis that word) movies for the other characters in the DC canon.

2) I disagree that Batman has nothing to bring to the table. The truth is that in many cases, Batman is capable of doing what the others heroes can't or won't do. Make no mistake, in that little list of super humans Bob rattled off, none of them are a half-decent detective and I wouldn't trust any of them to do any kind of real infiltration. Sorry Bob, but just because you're tired of him doesn't mean he isn't one of the most important parts of the Justice League for more then just "being Batman".

Actually, the Martian Manhunter (J'onn J'onzz)'s human identity was a detective, the Barry Allen Flash was a "police scientist" (later revealed to be a forensic scientist), and the Question was an investigative journalist so they ARE half-decent detectives

Ironically even in the comics, Batman's detective skills are near the bottom of 'things we effectively use' pile and sometimes he comes off as stupid. Tower of Babel saga aka Justice League: Doom‎ case in point--you have this database on your fellow Leaguers and you do NOT have a system that tells you if the files are accessed without your knowledge in place? Let the face palming begin.

As for "real infiltration" the Martian Manhunter was doing it for decades (pretending to be a human) and via his telepathic powers could impersonate a person the crooks KNOW...something Batman could have a problem with. Wally West Flash was able to pretend to be Barry's arch enemy Professor Zoom (Reverse Flash) for a while and in the comics Superman has taken on MANY identities (usually without knowing who he really is) and fooling everyone in the process! In the comics he has been the President of the United States (Action Comics Vol 1 #371), a professional wrestler (Action Comics Vol 1 #372), Public Enemy #1 (Action Comics Vol 1 #374), and I think you get the idea. And all these successful impersonations were him without actually trying!

I think the real reason for Batman being the go to DC character is that of all the main members of the League he is the cheapest to put off in terms of abilities (his gadgets are another story).

Alright, I'll give you Martian Manhunter, but even then what he is doing isn't so much detective work as it is reading the minds of other people.

Tower of Babel was a case of writer-induced stupidity. Doesn't count.

Flash impersonating an arch-nemesis with essentially the same power set and costume. Not much of a stretch there if you get down to brass tacks.

As for Superman, where to begin. All three of your examples are from Silver Age, and everyone knows Silver Age Superman could do anything. Find me an example of that post-crisis. Second, this is the same canon from which sprung the idea that his glasses were magical so no one could recognize who he was when the glasses we off. Again, not his own skills.

Paradoxrifts:

That's a fair call. But lets look at the superheroes that have managed to remain popular long enough into the current period to break out onto the silver screen and make it big in Hollywood.

Batman - A very intelligent bat-themed ninja, who masquerades as a trust fund raised billionaire playboy.
Ironman - A second-generation genius, who is not only scientist but also engineered his own suit of powered armour.
The Hulk - Yet another tormented scientific genius, who turns into a literally unstoppable green rage monster when he loses his cool.
Thor - An arrogant and obnoxious bully of an overgrown child finally grows up, who was and still is almost as thick as the hammer he wields. Spends almost all of his screen time between Thor and The Avengers trying to redeem his far more intelligent, slightly-deranged younger brother.
Spiderman - A nerdy, shy and awkward high school boy is blessed with awesome after being accidentally bitten by a special spider that grants superpowers.

Seeing a common thread that links this lot together? Only X-men (Read: Mostly Wolverine, but on the other hand they did heavily feature Magneto and Professor X who are definitely no slouches when it comes down to intelligence. But mostly Wolverine.) and Captain America really seem to buck the trend when it comes to the modern superhero genre's obsession with smarts.

It's interesting that you come to that conclusion, considering we have a long history in the west of associating intelligence with evil. The obsessive mad scientist, the scheming Machiavellian, the malevolent trickster. Usually the introverted loner who shouts 'FOOLS!' and starts monologuing isn't the good guy...

Superman has Lex Luthor, Batman has R'as and Scarecrow, Spiderman has like 16 villains who have PhDs.

shadowmagus:
Tower of Babel saga aka Justice League: Doom‎ case in point--you have this database on your fellow Leaguers and you do NOT have a system that tells you if the files are accessed without your knowledge in place? Let the face palming begin.

If someone can break into Batman's computer system, can't we assume that they're savvy enough to bypass the date-modified timestamps? Considering it'd have to be on a log or .plist file somewhere, I don't think it'd be too difficult.

If someone gets administrator access to your computer, they can pretty much do whatever they like with it. Security measures can only get you so far.

Atmos Duality:
They're going to do more Batman, because Batman is the only real blockbuster character DC has.
Outside of Batman and Robin, the films are quite successful.

Hell, even Batman and Robin was financially successful. Budget of $140 million, box office $238 million. Plus merchandising, tie-ins, and a very decent soundtrack. (The End Is the Beginning Is the End, anyone?)

Yes, give us a break. Put a moratorium on Batman for the next ten years.

I took a break from Batman after the reboot. I'm still on break. Where's my goddamn Zelda movie?

ThrobbingEgo:
It's interesting that you come to that conclusion, considering we have a long history in the west of associating intelligence with evil.

Have we ever had so much cause to identify with stories that are about intelligent people? Now that most knowledge that most people will ever wish to know of is ever only a Google search away via the internet, isn't easier than any other point of history to feel just a little smart and knowledgeable about something?

ThrobbingEgo:
The obsessive mad scientist, the scheming Machiavellian, the malevolent trickster. Usually the introverted loner who shouts 'FOOLS!' and starts monologuing isn't the good guy...

And when these sorts of villains do appear they're increasingly being defeated by heroes that are more quick-witted, resourceful and intelligent then they themselves are.

ThrobbingEgo:
Superman has Lex Luthor, Batman has R'as and Scarecrow, Spiderman has like 16 villains who have PhDs.

I didn't mention Superman because his first foray into the modern superhero genre a bit of a flop. His primary nemesis started off as an evil mad scientist, but it was only when he was reinvented as a scheming, power-hungry and morally bankrupt capitalist did he really break out and capture the public's attention.

Why more Batman?

But seriously, yes, too much Batman right now. Let him rest for a few years. Let the people WANT another Batman movie first.

teamcharlie:
Here's one immediate, easy way to make Batman new again: Adam West him the fuck up. Make him an archaic, ridiculous symbol of oldschool machismo, bring back the sexy 60s-looking ladies to fawn over and/or catwoman him, give him one of his sillier opponents to fight as a B-plot with waves of implausible goons and make everything as goofy as possible. That sounds like several gallons of fun in my book. Hell, I'll just bet that Jon Hamm would jump at the chance to be Bruce Wayne for pennies on the dollar.

Oh Lord this is the best idea ever!

Totally sorts out the whole power gap problem and "Why doesn't Superman go to Gotham" issue by making that the point of Batman, although I would support actually giving Adam West the role, then they could go by the explanation that Batman was before the time of the rest of the Superheroes, and now he's a pretty paranoid, washed up mental case because he hangs out with people that do his job yet could literally tear him in two with their little fingers, but everyone still respects him because he was the first great superhero and still has the public perception of being a great hero (also they totally need access to his money and gadgets, so they have to humour him)

Actually that just sounds really sad now, not humourous at all! Poor Batman, outclassed and crazy, yet unable to leave the game.

ThrobbingEgo:

Paradoxrifts:

That's a fair call. But lets look at the superheroes that have managed to remain popular long enough into the current period to break out onto the silver screen and make it big in Hollywood.

Batman - A very intelligent bat-themed ninja, who masquerades as a trust fund raised billionaire playboy.
Ironman - A second-generation genius, who is not only scientist but also engineered his own suit of powered armour.
The Hulk - Yet another tormented scientific genius, who turns into a literally unstoppable green rage monster when he loses his cool.
Thor - An arrogant and obnoxious bully of an overgrown child finally grows up, who was and still is almost as thick as the hammer he wields. Spends almost all of his screen time between Thor and The Avengers trying to redeem his far more intelligent, slightly-deranged younger brother.
Spiderman - A nerdy, shy and awkward high school boy is blessed with awesome after being accidentally bitten by a special spider that grants superpowers.

Seeing a common thread that links this lot together? Only X-men (Read: Mostly Wolverine, but on the other hand they did heavily feature Magneto and Professor X who are definitely no slouches when it comes down to intelligence. But mostly Wolverine.) and Captain America really seem to buck the trend when it comes to the modern superhero genre's obsession with smarts.

It's interesting that you come to that conclusion, considering we have a long history in the west of associating intelligence with evil. The obsessive mad scientist, the scheming Machiavellian, the malevolent trickster. Usually the introverted loner who shouts 'FOOLS!' and starts monologuing isn't the good guy...

Superman has Lex Luthor, Batman has R'as and Scarecrow, Spiderman has like 16 villains who have PhDs.

Yes but Superman and Lex Luthor are Intellectual equals Same as Batman and Ra's and same as Spiderman and Green Goblin.

Britisheagle:
I just loved the JLA comics growing up, especially Kingdom Come, and would love to see a film that could recreate the same feeling. But at this point I feel Batman is being milked and am quite frankly getting tired of him.

Funny you should mention that in this thread. In Kingdom come, it appears Bruce Wayne doesn't want to help Superman. He then offers that Captain Marvel, whose power in on par with Superman's, and other super villains, are about to engage in war. What, he asks, is a mortal supposed to do about that. Happily, with some mechanized armor, he figures it out.

There are so many takes on this character he can always seem fresh and new. There is no reason not to keep putting him in movies.

Yes no more batman movies for a while...Can we have a Robin movie, though? Please? You know it would at least have a good performance if Joseph Gordon was playing Dick Grayson, or even Tim Drake.

I personally loathe this concept on the grounds that it's the "safe bet" that Time-Warner's executive board, populated by Liches whose phylacteries are their company's net worth, will execute in the wake of this Avengers-flavored Beatle-mania.

Aquaman should be shown at about the same power level as Wonder Woman, and the that the two of them should be portrayed as strong enough to be able to fight together against Superman for it to result in a draw. I really want the Guy Gardner or Kyle Rayner Green Lantern more than the other two humans, they're too overexposed in recent adaptations. The Flash is going to be difficult to nail in live action with the others due to speed being his power, and the fact that there have been a few guys using that moniker. Barry Allen is a cold-case cop that moves AND thinks at light speed (sometimes faster), so Batman is kind of superfluous with that guy around.

I just want Geoff Johns to be nowhere near this thing: he's proven in recent years that when he writes a diversified ensemble cast he sucks. Green Lantern Corps was the exception since the skill-sets for all of those space cops were "fancy space MacGuffin + imagination."

I for one would look forward more to a Captain Marvel... I mean SHAZAM! movie, but I'll never get that bit of awesomeness, especially that part where the internet speculation had Dwayne "The Rock" Johnson being cast as the only person capable of portraying Teth Adam. I want this JLA film to do well enough to warrant a JSA movie, but that's an unsafe bet for any of those misers. Golden Age heroes were just campy enough to be great. Thinking on it; the Secret Six, as Gail Simone's "Villains United" and follow-up mini presented them, would make for the exact antithesis of Marvel's unstoppable movie universe franchise.

Batman prints money so I doubt they'll shelf him anytime soon. But hell, as long as they use the money to fund things like the Guillermo Del Torro "Justice League Dark" movie, I'm all right with it.

shadowmagus:

maximara:

shadowmagus:
1) I actually agree with Bob that maybe it is time to put Batman away for awhile and lets try making GOOD (and I emphasis that word) movies for the other characters in the DC canon.

2) I disagree that Batman has nothing to bring to the table. The truth is that in many cases, Batman is capable of doing what the others heroes can't or won't do. Make no mistake, in that little list of super humans Bob rattled off, none of them are a half-decent detective and I wouldn't trust any of them to do any kind of real infiltration. Sorry Bob, but just because you're tired of him doesn't mean he isn't one of the most important parts of the Justice League for more then just "being Batman".

Actually, the Martian Manhunter (J'onn J'onzz)'s human identity was a detective, the Barry Allen Flash was a "police scientist" (later revealed to be a forensic scientist), and the Question was an investigative journalist so they ARE half-decent detectives

Ironically even in the comics, Batman's detective skills are near the bottom of 'things we effectively use' pile and sometimes he comes off as stupid. Tower of Babel saga aka Justice League: Doom‎ case in point--you have this database on your fellow Leaguers and you do NOT have a system that tells you if the files are accessed without your knowledge in place? Let the face palming begin.

As for "real infiltration" the Martian Manhunter was doing it for decades (pretending to be a human) and via his telepathic powers could impersonate a person the crooks KNOW...something Batman could have a problem with. Wally West Flash was able to pretend to be Barry's arch enemy Professor Zoom (Reverse Flash) for a while and in the comics Superman has taken on MANY identities (usually without knowing who he really is) and fooling everyone in the process! In the comics he has been the President of the United States (Action Comics Vol 1 #371), a professional wrestler (Action Comics Vol 1 #372), Public Enemy #1 (Action Comics Vol 1 #374), and I think you get the idea. And all these successful impersonations were him without actually trying!

I think the real reason for Batman being the go to DC character is that of all the main members of the League he is the cheapest to put off in terms of abilities (his gadgets are another story).

Alright, I'll give you Martian Manhunter, but even then what he is doing isn't so much detective work as it is reading the minds of other people.

Tower of Babel was a case of writer-induced stupidity. Doesn't count.

Flash impersonating an arch-nemesis with essentially the same power set and costume. Not much of a stretch there if you get down to brass tacks.

As for Superman, where to begin. All three of your examples are from Silver Age, and everyone knows Silver Age Superman could do anything. Find me an example of that post-crisis. Second, this is the same canon from which sprung the idea that his glasses were magical so no one could recognize who he was when the glasses we off. Again, not his own skills.

In the Dominus Saga (1998 triangle 21-36) Superman was split into Golden Age (Superman, The Man Of Steel), Silver Age (Adventures of Superman), Bronze Age (Action comics), and 2999 (Superman) versions.

A year later The Kingdom with its concept of Hypertime (where ALL the old stories did happen...someplace) came into being showing what Dominus has some form of Hypertime power.

Infinite Crisis (2005 - 2006) threw everything into a blender with Superman picking up more and more of the Silver Age as time when on and Action Comics #864 (June, 2008) showed the Silver Age Legion was still around.

In the 52 realities that existed after Infinite Crisis you had Earth's 16 (Supersons), 17 (Atomic Knights, Kamandi), and 26 (old Earth-C) holding some of the old Silver Age realities. The add to the fun they made Brave and the Bold TV series Earth-23 so you get that as well.

On October 2, 2011 in his Facebook page Dan DiDio (Vice President-Executive Editor of DC) stated "Brace yourself, but after further review, there have been no Crisis events in the New DCU." Ie Crisis on Infinite Earths did NOT happen in the post Flashpoint DCU. Never mind that the whole post Flashpoint DCU continuity making the Post-Crisis pre-Zero Hour Hawkman mess look understandable (Green Lantern and Batman are totally FUBARed)

So no matter how you slice it the Silver Age Superman (and his stories) existed Post Crisis.

shadowmagus:
1) I actually agree with Bob that maybe it is time to put Batman away for awhile and lets try making GOOD (and I emphasis that word) movies for the other characters in the DC canon.

2) I disagree that Batman has nothing to bring to the table. The truth is that in many cases, Batman is capable of doing what the others heroes can't or won't do. Make no mistake, in that little list of super humans Bob rattled off, none of them are a half-decent detective and I wouldn't trust any of them to do any kind of real infiltration. Sorry Bob, but just because you're tired of him doesn't mean he isn't one of the most important parts of the Justice League for more then just "being Batman".

I think your missing the point, and getting it all at once. Flash has outplayed a cosmic mind in chess by running his mind at superspeed. He also has the testing knowledge of a scientist. Martian Manhunter has proven more than once his ability as a detective, and whats more can READ MINDS taking out a part of Batman's appeal. Wonder Woman did at one point lose her powers, and work as a Detective. I'm not going to discuss her success in her endeavors there for a point I'll make below.

What makes Batman Batman is his badassness. His power is to be super-prepared, to the point that he prepared for being unprepared by being more prepared. He can beat anyone because he knows everyone's weakness. He has so much badassness he kind of outdoes superman. This has been explored. It has been explored from every angle, under multiple lenses, and with many different cameras. He is fully explored by everyone, and there is a reason, he's cool. The problem is, he's kind of too cool, because he's now rudely stepping on EVERYONE else's toes.

I liked Avengers, but one thing a friend said that stuck with me because I kind of agree is that it could have been called "Iron Man and the Avengers" and no one would have blinked. He is in that movie what I think Bob doesn't want Batman to be in Justice League. I think Bob is saying let some other people get some screentime. DC is full of awesome characters, the large part of which are often misunderstood, or not represented correctly. I, too, am sick of DCs recent moves to make all live action super hero products copies of Batman.(See Arrow, Wonder Woman Pilot, etc.) The only other attempt from this Superman movie was Green Lantern, and you could just tell no one was trying.

Zachary Amaranth:
Maybe? Maybe?

MB202:
Bob mentioned this in one of his Junk Draw episodes, in that we drove Boba Fett and Chuck Norris into the ground, now we're doing the same with Batman... I guess that WAS enough to fill out and episode episode.

'Course, we drove Batman into the ground well before either was a thing, and neither were worth driving into the ground in the first place. Hell, the Chuck Norris craze was the failure to recognise a parody.

Now, I thin kthe big thing with Batman and filling an episode is that circumstances have changed.

It's weird... I didn't know who Chuck Norris was before the meme, and whenever I tried to ask about, everyone got all offended and said Chuck Norris would kick my ass without actually answering my question. So for the longest time, I only had these facts to go on, even though I knew they were gross exaggerations.

MB202:
even though I knew they were gross exaggerations.

Much like his career.

BOOM!

(Not that he doesn't have a big career, but he does have a tendency towards even bigger claims...)

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