The Big Picture: Continuity Wars

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It always bothered me how Yoshi's Island in Yoshi's Island is like a 100 times bigger (and funnier) than in Super Mario World.

Wait, the Mushroom Kingdom's flora affects those two Toads in New Super Mario Bros. Wii and WiiU.

Gizmo1990:
Also will their ever be a Big Picture on the New 52 as I know very little about it and really want to know why Bob seems to hate it.

New 52 is simply the latest (and most blatant) example of how DC reboots its continuity every ten years with a new manufactured "crisis" in order to alter certain "established" traits in favor of wanting to take a character in a new direction.

Their one BIG crisis arguably had the greatest shakeup, knocking off among others Supergirl (whom they wanted to end) and Barry Allen-Flash (whom they wanted to replace with Kid Flash, Wally West). It eventually turned into their continuity crutch, by which they demonized Hal Jordan, replacing him with a character who belongs in a Green Lantern outfit about as much as Raiden belongs in Metal Gear Solid, then rehabilitating his image with yellow brain aliens or something, and a hundred other equally dubious decisions.

TLDR; DC uses stupid reboots to change stupid stories into other stupid stories, and also, Geoff Johns.

I wonder if Bob works Mario-themed games into his continuity, cause it seems like it would be pretty easy to blow his mind, e.g., Birdo is in Mario Tennis.

I'm sure they'll keep bits and bobs from the EU. I wouldn't be surprised if the Solo twins are in the next one, for instance (although they very well may not be). And I'd personally like a KotOR-era film someday. But no Vong plz.

Anyway as a comics nerd I dig continuity but I can accept that the realities of decades of storytelling will mean that not everything is going to line up just right.

I enjoyed the Mario digressions. Mario as John Carter/Superman = pretty slick.

Also kudos on the double use of 'ephemera'.

While I can understand the protectiveness that Star Wars fans have towards their Expanded Universe, as I happen to be one of those geeks who really got into the books when I was a kid (I mean, I used to play on a forum post-based Star Wars RPG), there's a real problem with the EU that makes me wonder if it's even worth preserving in the movies.

A lot of it is really bad.

No, seriously. Some of the books are terrible, almost to the point of being unreadable. This normally would be easy to write off, except one of the most important parts of the EU canon, the establishment of Skywalker's rebirthed Jedi Order, is also written by one of the worst writers in the EU. Seriously, this guy is bad. Really bad. He is overly fond of pulling new superweapons out of nowhere that make the Death Star look like a wiffle ball, he writes beloved characters as though they are complete morons, and spins a slew of plotlines that are never resolved elsewhere. He kills at least two characters through means of pure stupidity. It was so bad that another author basically had to write a Fix Fic (obligatory TVTropes link) to tie up all the loose ends and point out what idiots everyone was being in this time period. It's glorious.

Granted, that aforementioned book was from the perspective of a borderline Mary Sue character, but I digress.

Basically, I'm just trying to point out that while there are a lot of people who love the Star Wars EU, it is rife with flame wars over the quality of different authors and plot lines, whether so-and-so should have died in the process of stopping some evil-dark-unholy threat from creating a new age of darkness or survived the ordeal, and various minutiae. There are screaming arguments over the various retcons and "plot twists," in the canon. It gets to the point that I want to read through the tubes of the Internet and grab these flame warriors by the shoulders and shake them while screaming in their faces "Do you guys even LIKE Star Wars?"

....

....

Hold on. Is this how comic book nerds feel about their material?

YES. YES. WE KNOW. They won't adapt any of that EU canon into new Star Wars stuff. (Even though Lucas nodded to some of it, making Coruscant a real place in the prequels is proof he was paying attention to what was being written about it.)

The thing I think most of us EU fans were looking forward to was that Disney might consider adapting the Thrawn Trilogy, since those books SCREAM Star Wars and would be easy to adapt into movies. Then after they won over the fans, they could do whatever spin-offs they wanted.

But no. And that's fine by me. Now I'm hoping that the original cast reunites for at least one more adventure in the SW universe.

Falseprophet:
I thought the Clone Wars cartoon was writing over a lot of EU canon anyway. And it's not like this is the first time this has happened. The prequels undid a lot of EU material that existed up to that point.

If you read through the extensive discussion of canon on Wookiepedia, it's clear that through the whole history of the franchise, whatever happened in the live-action films is canon, and any other media is generally accepted as canon until Lucasfilm decides it isn't.

Lucasfilm has the right to mine whatever ideas they like from EU canon, and they probably will use a couple. But adopt that byzantine web wholesale? Not likely.

Yeah that's pretty much what I've been thinking all along, though personally I doubt they will adopt anything from the EU.

I'm okay with that but at the same time I think it would be really cool if they kept Grand Admiral Thrawn around as the bad guy. You can completely re-write the story, but just keep Thrawn as the leader of the imperial remnants.

Out of all the EU universe stuff, the first thing that comes to mind when people talk about it is the Thrawn trilogy. And that's because Timothy Zahn made a legitimately awesome Star Wars villain here. The guy has everything, great name, distinct features, awesome MO. There's a reason why everyone remembers him and those that don't know any of the EU will love him all the same. I'd give it a 99% chance the new writers won't be able to come up with something better, just like how Darth Maul or Count Dooko could never live up to Darth Vader. It would be a great gesture towards the hard core Star Wars fans as well.

I recently found out that Tarantino's films have a continuity... shit's banannas!

I hate to say it... but that Mario continuity stuff was terribly engrossing. I would love to see another episode discussing that, if you fancy the idea, Bob.

Darth_Payn:

Gizmo1990:

Also will their ever be a Big Picture on the New 52 as I know very little about it and really want to know why Bob seems to hate it.

He already did. It's called Continanity Reloaded, I think.

ShadowKatt:
I never once expected them to pick up the EU. Lucasarts never did, why would Disney. It's not as if the legwork is already done for them and they would just have to throw their infinite supply of money at it until they worked out a script with only a fraction of the effort. That would just be insane.

OK, time out. LucasArts CONTRIBUTED to the SWEU with lots of great video games (in no particular order: Dark Forces and the Jedi Knight Series, KOTOR, Shadows of the Empire, The Rogue Squadron Trilogy, Republic Commando) and there's no reason to think those will POOF disappear when the new movies arrive.

They were endorsed, yes, but beyond that there is t much that really makes them any ki d of canon. There is very little that ties them Into anything save the jedi knight series, and only then because of a couple familiar faces. Its not the same as if they did a movie that really showed Luke building or at least starti g the new jedi order. Lucasarts contribultio s to the EU have more or less been not suing people who had the same Ideas LA had before they made it into a game.

Though I havent played the rogue squadron games, so maybe im missing something supendously spectacular there that somehow contributed greatly.

I'll admit, I love canon debates and their associated madness. But, this kind of stuff doesn't really get to me because I just look at stories set in well-established universes less seriously. When it comes to Mario, Sonic, even Star Wars, I tend to see only set pieces. Their universes have certain rules that must be played by, and it's up to whoever is holding the pen to come up with an interesting way to break those rules and tie it back in to the original plot. As far as I was concerned, every new Star Wars media became ascended fandom a long, long time ago.

Falseprophet:
I thought the Clone Wars cartoon was writing over a lot of EU canon anyway. And it's not like this is the first time this has happened. The prequels undid a lot of EU material that existed up to that point.

If you read through the extensive discussion of canon on Wookiepedia, it's clear that through the whole history of the franchise, whatever happened in the live-action films is canon, and any other media is generally accepted as canon until Lucasfilm decides it isn't.

Lucasfilm has the right to mine whatever ideas they like from EU canon, and they probably will use a couple. But adopt that byzantine web wholesale? Not likely.

I think I remember one writer actually quit because their depiction of their favorite race (which they'd built into 'better than jedi' mary sues) was overridden when the toon showed them as villainous mercenaries. (I think irony was enjoyed by the fanbase as said author was reputedly infamous for trampling all over everyone else's established continuity if it served their stories).

anyways, I thought the official standpoint was that the EU was canon unless the movies/tv series said otherwise, so totally not surprised at all that they are ignoring it (and again, makes aforementioned authors tantrum all the more childish).

Soviet Heavy:
Thing is, I don't give a shit about Mario continuity. I came in with the promise of hearing about Star Wars, and left with nothing useful being said and a two minute tangent on why fucking Shy-Guys are interdimensional beings.

Arqus_Zed:
Cute.

He spends about one third of the entire episode talking about it. In great detail. With information that seems disturbingly well thought about. Questioning various theories in rapid succession. He probably wanted to let it come of as a joke, but if you're not too dense, it's quite obvious he's really being quite serious.

It's like that Moviebob episode where he pretends to have seen a private screening of a new high budget Super Mario movie. The episode was basically: "If I had half a billion dollars, this is the Mario movie I would make." Yeah, it was disguised as an April fools episode, but he just wanted to get all his "super cool ideas" to the masses.

I'm going to address both of you at once, because the response is the same.

Lighten up! He was taking a crack at the fact that nerds tend to obsess over ultimately frivolous entertainment endeavours (the message of the video, if you were listening) by going humourously overboard on his analysis of the Mario continuity - a series of games that don't really have a continuity, being entirely frivolous entertainment endeavours. The fact that I have to explain the joke to you kind of destroys its humour, but really, it was very obvious he was joking, and the fact that you two both seem to think he had a serious beef with the Mario continuity frankly amazes me.

He's basically saying "Continuity bugs me as much as it does you, but it's actually way more fun if we just sit tight and enjoy it." And you guys are just going "Rah rah, not enough Star Wars, too much Mario, I'm a very serious person who is inexplicably grumpy about the videos produced by a film critic I clearly don't like very much to start with."

ShadowKatt:
I never once expected them to pick up the EU. Lucasarts never did, why would Disney. It's not as if the legwork is already done for them and they would just have to throw their infinite supply of money at it until they worked out a script with only a fraction of the effort. That would just be insane.

Coming up with a plot for a film is not the time/money-consuming part. There are thousands of writers in Hollywood churning out screenplays to pick from. Polishing up a rough screenplay into something good enough to film takes a little more time, and is the reason why many Hollywood film scripts are first written by a complete unknown (who'll get paid comparatively little), but then rewritten by the likes of Ted Elliott and Terry Rossio.

The entire writing process (including re-writes ad-nauseam) is still the tiniest fraction of the investment needed to make a film. Even if some of the expanded universe was already in screenplay form, it's a negligible cost to Disney to just start from scratch (which gives them far more freedom).

Any not retarded Star Wars fan is going to say

Star Wars - Good
Empire - Great
Return - ok

ANYTHING else starwars related - Meh to eh.

Don't get me wrong the Zahn books and a few others are decent reads but no one "really" cares or ever expected them to be canon and lucas never acknowledged them. Hell no one acknowledges his awful prequels and frankly if disney decided not to consider them canon you'd get a round of applause.

I think the general consensus from fans who have been around since the 80-90s is very very cautious optimism. Screw canon we'd just be happy if its not painfully bad.

shadowmagus:

If George Lucas' words are to be believed/followed, nothing outside the movies is direct canon.

And I, in turn, selectively like to believe that nothing outside of the original trilogy is canon.

We need an episode about Mario's continuity and timeline now, Bob.

so the moral of this video is...

that Nintendo needs to release a "mushroom kingdom historia" much like they did with zelda explaining the triple-split time line within the mario games? Obviously Super Mario World and Yoshi's Island can't be in the same timeline due to massive geographical changes that just aren't possible within the 30-40 years that mario has been away. Also there has to be a third timeline where Bowser is only a jerk but still a close friend since they keep inviting him and some of his goonies to football/basketball/volleyball/tennis/go-karting all the time.

It would also explain why some power ups appear where others don't which means we can safely put all the tanooki suit games in the same timeline (on a related sidenote: fuck that suit I want my super cape back >:C, yes I know they're essentially the same)

oh boy.... I kinda want that book to happen :/

Gizmo1990:
How could anyone think they would use any of the EU? The little I know makes it out to be an incoherent clusterfuck.

Also will their ever be a Big Picture on the New 52 as I know very little about it and really want to know why Bob seems to hate it.

I was mainly hoping they would adapt the Kyle Katarn story aka. Dark Forces II, Mysteries of the Sith, Jedi Outcast and Jedi Academy.

It's the least clusterfucky content of the Expanded universe and fit in quite well with what came before in the films.

I too subscribed to the theory that the expanded Star Wars universe would be left out in the cold, because Lucas has pretty much come out and said that it's all non-canon anyway, since it contradicts the stories he was trying to tell in the prequel trilogy. Like or hate the idea behind the new Disney-produced films, the idea of a cohesive Star Wars canon went out the window when Lucas began telling the prequel trilogy some fourteen years ago.

Besides, a fresh start is really what Star Wars needs. I would personally like the new films to be as far removed from the original trilogy as possible.

I always enjoy how people are so quick to disregard the EU, but I often find that they always add an addendum to say "except KOTOR".

So much love for this episode. Thank you.

A big problem for me, among many, is the expanded Star Wars universe made better sense (to me) of Anakins conundrum. His grandson succumbs to a similar problem in the way I told a buddy it should have un-folded. Backing up: a number of conservatives said, if Hitler couldn't murder his son, that wouldn't suddenly make him a good person. Darth Vader could only be redeemable if he only turned to the dark side if, in a moment of claravoyance, understood it was the only way to defeat the emperor. That ultimately is something Anakin's own grandson does. I'm sorry that will never make it into the movies.

As for Star Trek, historically, Spock, et al. would go into the past to fix it if someone traveled backward and broke time. It feels like the current guys are happy to be part of a "fake" continiuty. Someone from 75 years in the future should come back to the "present", fix things, and make the current cast, as we know them, disappear.

It causes a kind of cognitive disonence that can ruin things for us.

I've always felt trying to impart any kind of solid continuity to Mario's world is an exercise in futility- nearly impossible, and a waste of time even if it was done. There's just too many conflicting ideas and different 'universes' and all that sort of stuff, and at the end of the day, it isn't going to make my enjoyment of Mario games any richer. Mario has never really been about the story- it doesn't matter why Bowser is trying to rule the universe one day and will enter kart races with his nemesis the next day. All the story has to do is give me a reason to run across the world, or to collect as many stars as I can. Also, it's also possible that Shy Guys, Bob-ombs etc. were in Mario's dream because he'd seen them before while he was awake. That, or Christina Hendricks is some kind of dream-hopping demigod in the real world.

Safaia:
http://www.cracked.com/article/167_5-reasons-star-wars-sequels-would-be-worse-than-prequels/

Written over three years ago. Thank you cracked.

Nearly all of these assume that they will use Star wars comics or novels as a basis. There are more plots than cloning palpatine and building bigger weapons for that cloned palpatine.

Soviet Heavy:
I always enjoy how people are so quick to disregard the EU, but I often find that they always add an addendum to say "except KOTOR".

Didn't KOTOR happen thousands of years before Star Wars and not really have anything to do with Star Wars, so it really doesn't matter all that much.

As long as the new movies don't piss on the Dark Horse comics (not likely since they came almost immediately after the original trilogy, so the actors' age won't allow it), the Thrawn trilogy (not likely either; same reason), the New Jedi Order series (has a definite possibility of being screwed over), or the Fate of the Jedi series (another almost definite) then I'll be happy. If they do... well, there's a reason something called Fanon Discontinuity exists. God knows I've had to use it more than once on this bloody franchise.

Also, I've been waiting for MovieBob to make a Super Mario Bros. vid since this series started. It's obvious he want to do one now too, so just do one already man!

Do4600:

Soviet Heavy:
I always enjoy how people are so quick to disregard the EU, but I often find that they always add an addendum to say "except KOTOR".

Didn't KOTOR happen thousands of years before Star Wars and not really have anything to do with Star Wars, so it really doesn't matter all that much.

Except you always get these people shouting "oh the EU sucks so much!" and then put KOTOR aside. So in essence, in their minds, everything sucks except for what they like, regardless of if they've read it or not.

Do4600:

Safaia:
http://www.cracked.com/article/167_5-reasons-star-wars-sequels-would-be-worse-than-prequels/

Written over three years ago. Thank you cracked.

Nearly all of these assume that they will use Star wars comics or novels as a basis. There are more plots than cloning palpatine and building bigger weapons for that cloned palpatine.

Also, somewhat ironically, Cloned Palpatine and the Dark Empire was some of the EU that George Lucas actually likes. When it was first published, he gave copies away to his staff for Christmas he liked it so much.

As a die-hard Star Wars fan who has read a lot of the expanded universe material, it doesn't actually bother me that there will very likely be two separate continuities. I was already accepting of this fact like you Bob when the annoucenment came and figured sure they could throw in some of the characters from the books and it could work but I won't be disappointed if they don't. First and foremost I just want them to make a great Star Wars film, that's really all I care about. I guess I'm more laid back when it comes to continuity (at least continuity between books and film/tv, the internal logic of the films/TV should be consistent) so bring on the alternative universe if it means we get good original stories set after Return of the Jedi starring Luke, Leia and Han in at least some capacity, as that's what I've wanted the most.

DVS BSTrD:

I'm Bob, and I'm a Nintendo fanboy

Dude does that still bother you?

Ok as an EU fan, when they first started working on the EU back in the early 90s, most of us took it as a symbol that they(Lucas) may never get to Episode 7 and beyond. The fact that a bunch of writer agreed to taking sections of the future story and working off already EU established work made it nice to read. A long drawn out story that hardly contradicts although sometime creating crazy and ridiculous scenarios.

It not that we(all) thought the movies would follow the EU, it that the new movies now throws a lot of the good stories out the window is kind of sad.

Eric the Orange:

DVS BSTrD:

I'm Bob, and I'm a Nintendo fanboy

Dude does that still bother you?

No, just stating a fact. I was never bothered by that.

I just have one damn question, Bob....

Could you tell me where the image from 1:08 is from? Because I would read the hell out of that book.

Awesome video as always, dude. While I love the DC characters more than the Marvel ones... I can't help but look over at Marvel and regard that continuity with some jealousy.

DC are a little afraid of their history, I think.

Look, just adapt Vector Prime, and I'll call Star Wars VII the best thing ever. Okay, Abrahms?

Here is the current official stance on canon, in order of importance

G-canon is George Lucas Canon; the six Episodes and any statements by George Lucas (including unpublished production notes from him or his production department that are never seen by the public). Elements originating with Lucas in the movie novelizations, reference books, and other sources are also G-canon, though anything created by the authors of those sources is C-canon. When the matter of changes between movie versions arises, the most recently released editions are deemed superior to older ones, as they correct mistakes, improve consistency between the two trilogies, and express Lucas's current vision of the Star Wars universe most closely. The deleted scenes included on the DVDs are also considered G-canon (when they're not in conflict with the movie).[1]

T-canon,[2] or Television Canon[3], refers to the canon level comprising the feature film Star Wars: The Clone Wars and the two television shows Star Wars: The Clone Wars and the Star Wars live-action TV series.[4][5] It was devised recently in order to define a status above the C-Level canon, as confirmed by Chee[6].

C-canon is Continuity Canon, consisting of all recent works (and many older works) released under the name of Star Wars: books, comics, games, cartoons, non-theatrical films, and more. Games are a special case, as generally only the stories are C-canon, while things like stats and gameplay may not be;[7] they also offer non-canonical options to the player, such as choosing female gender for a canonically male character. C-canon elements have been known to appear in the movies, thus making them G-canon; examples include the name "Coruscant," swoop bikes, Quinlan Vos, Aayla Secura, YT-2400 freighters and Action VI transports.

S-canon is Secondary Canon; the materials are available to be used or ignored as needed by current authors. This includes mostly older works, such as much of the Marvel Star Wars comics, that predate a consistent effort to maintain continuity; it also contains certain elements of a few otherwise N-canon stories, and other things that "may not fit just right." Many formerly S-canon elements have been elevated to C-canon through their inclusion in more recent works by continuity-minded authors, while many other older works (such as The Han Solo Adventures) were accounted for in continuity from the start despite their age, and thus were always C-canon.

N is Non-Canon. What-if stories (such as stories published under the Infinities label) and anything else directly and irreconcilably contradicted by higher canon ends up here. N is the only level that is not considered canon by Lucasfilm. Information cut from canon, deleted scenes, or from canceled Star Wars works falls into this category as well, unless another canonical work references it and it is declared canon.
D is Detours Canon, used for material hailing from Star Wars Detours.[8]

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