Jimquisition: Emotions, Polygons, and Ellen Page

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zebon:
Needed less David Cage impression and more discussing why his views are delusional.

The discussion is in the impression, in the red light that goes off in the mind when confronted with the idea that 'polygons are emotions' or that books and older movies can't convey emotions. That's my take, at least.

David Cage, what's wrong with your face in this video? It's all rigid, as if it's just a mask someone else is wearing.

.....

Clearly, this video needs higher definition so I can see all of your emotions!
NEED. MORE. EMOTIONS!!!

For realzies: the only Quantic Dream game I've played is Heavy Rain, which I thought was a really fun game that I'll never play again. The concept was great and there are some moments in that game that are incredible, but the execution overall was...meh. It tried to force the sadness down my throat, and that got annoying after a bit.

I found Mr. Cage's statements about graphics and emotion to be completely ridiculous, and I'm very glad Jim feels the same way. Well parodied, sir!

I like Quantic's stuff, to be honest.
I think Cage has some... severe perception issues, but I really do like their games.

He did not mention that Willem Defoe would be in the next David Cage game...
That alone leaves me in shock.

DVS BSTrD:
image
For a man who equates polygons to emotions, you do seem a little... out of shape Mr. Cage.

Damnit, DVS I was going to use that gif!

Anyway, I believe that David Cage has actually found that emotions are not good enough to show emotion. Hence why he has got Willem Dafoe for his next game, because only with Dafoe can we get the perfect emotion.

It shall be known, and forever revered as

WILLEMOTIONS!

Gaming was close to Willemotions here

image

when Everything Or Nothing came out, however we did not have the technology to express true Willemotion.

Now however, in Beyond: Two Souls, we can see each and every Willemotion, as if we were experiencing them ourselves.

I think I shed a tear. Then I realized it didn't have polygons.

I am a cold-hearted bastard.

There are so many reasons this could be the best Jimquisition ever. So very emotions, but so un-polygonned.

The old man head near the end, those are the emotions I felt while playing a game where I had to watch my kid do his homework and eat dinner...then I sent Heavy Rain back to gamefly, with an emotion of thankfulness that I only rented it.
I obviously could not handle such heartwrenching polygons.

Ok Jim, seriously get the point you're making and I get why it's funny but the accent made my hair stand on end, 'twas a combination spanish, french and russian moste foul....

As for the whole polygons = emotions hilarity, makes me laugh. Sure good graphics are kinda nice, but entirely meaningless if they aren't showing anything of value.

captcha: Exercise more
....Fuck you Solvemedia....

I had to pause the video half way through to have a rage
I know Jim wa just taking the piss out of the whole "Graphics are emotions" thing, but he really laid it on a tad too thick
I find the whole "We need better Graphics/Photorealism to make try emotions in games" arguement to be bullshit
When I hear people talk about it, I just bring up a little game called "Thomas was Alone", a game where you guide a block from one place to another, and yet has had people ball their eyes out over
I remember 2K brought the arguement up a good while back, around the same time their Bioshock Infinate Trailer came out & had people getting all worked up over it, shooting them in the foot faster than any human being could
For me, I look at Photorealism & go "Why"
Its a unperfected art style, that requires a crap tonne of different elements and variables to be perfect for it to work, limiting the practicle uses of the style
On top of that, the games industry is currently suffering a problem where games are now so expensive to make, that the need to make millions on launch day to be worth the effort put into the development
Why is this?
I don't know, maybe its because a lot of these games pour so much money into their visuals
Photorealism is not cheap...
At all
To the point, I don't even thing its worth it
But thats proberbly just me

Did anyone else jump back at 4:11? Dat shit aint right yo.

Zackmeister:

I haven't played the game, or anything by Quantic Dream, honestly. (Please, no stoning. I'll get around to it, I promise.) But I don't think the cry is for more spunkgargleweewee. I think the cry is more for that it's okay to be a bit more subtle with emotional, and character-based narrative. Heavy Rain was probably really good at what it did, but there's nothing wrong with saying "Maybe tweak it a bit." If I'm reading Jim- er, David correctly, it's that the push for better graphics to mean you can do more with characters and story is a bit of a misguided idea. Hell, I got more depressed while playing Monster Rancher than I did with a few scenes in Mass Effect.

also he talks about story telling in games like he invented it, and then tries to tie it directly into graphical fidelity. For a lot of Heavy Rain I was thinking that certain choices where made because the designer wishes he had the same respect as a movie director, so he was trying to make his game as much as a movie. This wasn't a bad thing, but I expect future games in this style to get old fast. Cage seems to think he's ushering a new era of gaming, when in reality his games will probably just be a novelty for a while.

I kinda liked Fahrenheit, haven't played Heavy Rain yet (PC master race and all...) and Beyond looks interesting, because Ellen Page. I don't get what the problem is here. In fact, i appreciate that his company is trying something different.

Did I miss something in the news or something?

I mean, more polygons means more *potential* for emotion, yes, but people hardly utilize it and the amount of 3d modelers on this planet that can create truly great characters that that truly hold their own against the best in other forms of art, I can count with my fingers.

im so glad im not the only one that was kinda annoyed during the PS4 thingy that all they were making it out to be was more graphics = better games. Yes..... of course it does....morons

Kuro Serpentina:
snip

Kinda confused: you make out like that's a dig at Jim's onion when you just completely agreed with him...

I like Ellen Page and Willem Dafoe. I really was perturbed that David Cage in the PS4 equaled more technological power with more emotion available, but really emotions in games are created with good writing, music and game direction. Graphics and voice acting are only ways to enhance emotional responses, not really create it.

Emotion. I wish i had the polycount to fully express how awesome this episode was. Also emotion.

David Cage is your standard game maker who confuses being obtuse with being deep. They both look the same at the surface, but you figure out pretty quick which is which once you actually step in it.

While yeah the idea that emotion can't be conveyed unless through stunning visual clarity, is a bit misguided. I'm glad David Cage makes the games he does. Instead of just jumping on the fps bandwagon.

Not enough man-boob fondling in this one. Sorry to say, Jim.

I've recently completed Persona 4 Golden and now am playing Persona 3 Portable. This game made me cry several times and feel overflown with emotion. Too bad that happened during visual novel parts. You know, the ones without polygons.

Now, thing about David Cage. He gets a free pass because videogame standards for story and emotions are overall relatively low. By movie standards Cage's stuff is yesterday garbage.

chiefohara:
Joke went on too long.

Im wondering was this video to annoy David Cage or to annoy the scumbag that threatened you last week.

To be honest Jim, 90% of the time you are righteous in your videos but this week it just didn't seem right, targeting one guy whose only crime was talking whimsical crap at a PS4 launch doesn't really click im afraid.

Joke indeed went on too long but I don't David Cage needs attacking because people either love him or like me just don't give a crap about a word he says.

Alright, how many people got the joke? Hands up?

Great ep Jim

-M

Cage's approach to pathos is completely borked.

Consider Omikron. It was a decent game, but the plot and structure didn't call for much in the way of emotional delivery. Indigo Prophecy traded its fun first few hours for nonstop Matrix porn in the form of QTEs, and Heavy Rain's plot was so predictable it was painful. Seeing characters painfully squeeze tears or pseudo-anguished expressions out of situations that don't make much sense really didn't help much.

As for Kara, while it's impressive on a tech demo level, I seriously failed to feel anything beyond the average and fairly basic need to interpose myself. Not because Kara was in danger, but because the whole demo felt like one of those instances that would be broken up with QTEs. Y'know - "Mash X so the Pretty Cyborg Lady doesn't get dismantled! YOU ALONE CAN SAVE HER!"

Pathos doesn't come from polygons and shaders. Pathos comes from story and plot construction. There's a reason why you'll still hear people saying Aeris' death in Final Fantasy VII shocked them, despite the awfully low-poly and obvious FMV status of the sequence in question. Squaresoft was always a little too big on sappy drama and cut-rate protagonists saddled with a Tragic Past (TM), but you could still feel them honestly trying, and successfully adding pathos to the scene in question.

Compare that to Ethan Marsh's cutting his finger off for the sake of his son's life. I didn't feel much, personally. If anything, I felt that this was just another gameplay sequence in a B-Grade crime flick you'd probably see on a lazy weekday afternoon.

If I could tell Cage one thing, it would be to drop his persona, to start using his actual name and maybe grow enough balls to occasionally deliver keynotes in French. I'd tell him to go sit his ass in a Narratology class and a few Literature seminars until he breaks free from the fairly cloying fallacy that HDR graphics are required for any kind of meaningful connection to be established with the player. Christ, I've connected with Zola and Flaubert's little puppets in the past, and they're made of precisely zero polygons! Just words. Plain and simple words on a page, delivered with enough skill so that they come together into a compelling personality and an interesting situation that deeply invests the reader.

As-is, he's just the perfect mouthpiece for graphics card manufacturers. "Buy our shit or you'll never be able to emotion the way we can emotion! Your emotional life will be incomplete, emotion! Emotions, emotions, emotions!"

From this video I got the following:
Emotion, Emotion, Emotion, TITS!
Emotion, Emotion, Emotion, TITS!

Well Jim...
As I've said before, I see where you are coming from, I personally despise David Cage's approach to the medium, and I feel that his PS4 statements were profoundly ill conceived, but it's undeniable that some people find "realism" appealing, and I personally don't feel it's anyone's place to tell them they "feel for the wrong thing" (as he is doing).
In the end I think that your parody ridiculizes your commentary too, because you end up taking his very silly statements out of context as well, to the absurd, to the extent that its hard to see your point, since you are shooting down a pursuit that very well could be a valid emotional output as any other.

Agustín Reche paints Hyperrealistic landscapes interrupted by reflections, as a comment in itself of the struture of society, and the inability to control progress and time. This is not WRONG, or less "emotional" than pop-art, he uses this technique because it is his method of choice to express the idea. Telling David Cage that he's an idiot for seeking the pinnacle of his expression is denying his creative choice (even if his writing is poor and his PS4 statements were profoundly absurd).

So yeah, I'd say, tone it down, I also feel that he is completely lost, but I think his work has its worth and his efforts are not completely stupid. I am not on his side creatively, but as an intelligent viewer I get that he means that he is actually hoping to achieve the technological fidelity to portray realistic phisical emotions of Humans in the form of poligons, and for this particular purpose, the more poligons allow him further emulation of photorealistic expressiveness. It's his way of saying that a medium has enough tools to express his personal vision.

Vitagen:
As someone who's never played any of David Cage's work, is his writing really that bad, or does he just get an exceptionally bad rep because he thinks he's some sort of transcendent genius but in reality isn't?

It's a bit of both tbh, I have heard a lot of different opinions, but I would say that the writing in Indigo Prophecy is probably the worst I have ever experienced. It is not so much that it is technically horrid, but that it shows an amazing lack of focus and restraint, like a 12 year old writing "THE MOST AWESUM MOVIE EVURR!".

-spoiler- there is an old blind lady that turns out to be like... THE INTERNET -end spoiler-

On the other hand, I felt that Heavy Rain was a LOT better, since it at least manages to keep the plot free of any fantasy elements. However, it is still plagued with clichès, and although in videogame terms it could be considered average, technically the writing has more holes and is as emotional as an average CSI miami episode.

An example of a functionally very game that improves on most the important aspect of Quantic Dream's games would be The Walking Dead. And notice that this isn't considering the graphics as an important aspect.

Now if DC kept quiet, it would probably work in his advantage, because he ends up defending his games as the narrative flagships of the medium, when they are simply underpar, although graphically impressive, adventure games. He calls out other developers for their "lack of innovation" when most gamers understand that graphics have never really been so important for games.

Great episode Jim! Loved the parody impersonating David Cage.

There are plenty of games that tell a great story without going overboard on the visuals. Bastion, for one. Did anyone else feel pissed at hell during the "All Your Base Belong To Us" segment?

And what about Reccetear? I don't know about anyone else, but I really wanted that adorable little girl to succeed.

Andy Shandy:
Snip

As great a portmanteau as "Willemotions" is, I think you mean "Willem Dafoetions", because it flows off the tongue more smoothly.

OT: I cannot believe I have been so blind all this time. To think, I thought that personality and characterization were what conveyed emotion. I have been a fool! Thank you, Jimid Sterlage, for showing me the truth!

I could no longer restrain myself, I had to create an account just to say it! Thank God for Jim!

That mask creeps me out a little too much. It's sad how I wouldn't doubt the diamond thing from David Cage.

Zachary Amaranth:

MrBaskerville:
He should focus on his writing instead, cause he really isn´t that talented a writer and desperately needs to improve if he is ever going to achieve his vision.

Thankfully, polygons can more than make up for shit writing.

They don't and they can't. Just tesselating something to an incredible point will not make it better (even if that just seems to be Cage's idea). On more than one occasion I've seen high-poly models completely wasted because they weren't aligned correctly so that the seams showed.
Doing good visual design (like Gearbox with Borderlands 2) helps a lot though.

You're damn right how many emotions is people.

Emotional has become one of those buzzwords that everbody who wants to make their story sound good uses.

To be honest I dislike books as a way to tell story's because there not visual.

I enjoyed the joke. Little bit jarring, at first, but I got into it. It's funny that Cage puts so much hard work into making faces look as realistic as possible, but the audience isn't going to be able to relate to them unless the writing behind the emotions they're conveying is half-as-good, which, unfortunately, it never is. I enjoyed Heavy Rain, don't get me wrong, but it never made me emotional. And both kids looked creepy as hell. I'm glad one of them didn't make it past the opening chapter.

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