Jimquisition: Emotions, Polygons, and Ellen Page

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cyvaris:
That was....interesting and a great parody.

Not really.

David Cage may appear to commit the crime of pretentiousness at times, however that is often the case with those who are both passionate and creative.

Until Jim actually demonstrates some talent in respect to the latter, he strikes me as guilty to a far greater degree.

I'm reminded of that snippet from L.A. Noire, as played by Two Best Friends.

"Look at my detailed face, officer! Can't you see my EMOTIONS?!?"
"I can see them!"

That was a good parody; I chuckled a fair amount. I think that bloating his statements from the Sony thing into some big ol' thing is a bit much. Still funny, and extra points for committing to the joke the whole video.

But the implication that Cage's games are 'filth' (EDIT: I guess he said film.) in the beginning there? I mean... I thought they were good...

I found this episode very boring, maybe if I cared who David Cage was I would have cared more.

JohnnyDelRay:
Another thing that comes to mind, the Extra Credits episode a while back about game soundtracks. Why are they so much more 'memorable' and amazing from the 8 and 16-bit days? Because of the limited sounds and instruments that could be programmed into each game, they had to rely on making the melodies really catchy and stick in your mind, and also to not get annoying. This took a lot of work and ingenuity of course.

But does that mean that nowadays, we shouldn't have the beautifully composed, layered orchestras that accompany games like Final Fantasy and Mass Effect, or Jesper Kyd's atmospheric sounds? That option is to us, and does it not succeed in creating emotion when used effectively? Do you want to go back to 16-bit sounds? Ok, I myself remember soundtracks from games I played in those days, very guilty of it in fact (hardly remember themes of these days longer than a few months after putting a game down, except for Skyrim), but I'm glad we have the technology and continue to push it. There's nothing wrong with pushing these boundaries, people!

The thing is that the "rules" for creating good music have remained constant. Additional tools have certainly empowered game music, but it's interesting to note that a lot of the best video game music is modern arrangements of those 8 and 16-bit classics. Having authentic instruments playing those pieces absolutely makes them better, in my book. But they were composed so gracefully in the first place that they don't hinge on modern technological capacities in delivering music within video games, and there's no doubt a lot of modern games suffer from a lack of good music -- especially the ones in a place to deliver something amazing.

Many of the biggest games of our generation have failed to deliver memorable music. God of War, Call of Duty, World of Warcraft and so on. These are games that have earned a lot of attention, money and gameplay hours, but they don't have a musical experience that's just as effective outside of the game. In comparison, games like The Legend of Zelda and Final Fantasy have extremely memorable music that carries the meaning of its original context outside of the game experience itself.

Legion:

O_O omg why is she sad?

.... i dont even emotion.

Also agree that the joke wore on for a bit, wanted a bit of Jim Sterling raging in there.

Therumancer:

LazyAza:
If ever their was a human being literally crammed too far up their own ass, it's David Cage. I watched a lets play of Heavy Rain a few months back and I gotta say, wow, like I knew it was bad but eeeesh. I've seen god knows how many crappy movies that weren't as crap as that "game".

Well, the thing is that "Heavy Rain" got a lot of praise, especially when it was new, for moving the genere along in terms of art and so on. Objectively it was kind of crap. A return to the era of "interactive movies" of the sort that choked game shelves when CD Roms were new for PCs and portables, and the industry went through a phase of being obssessed with digitizing real actors to play the role of characters in various games. This lead to things like "Ripper", or "Daedaelus Encounter" (starring Tia Carerra), and numerous others. The ill-fated 3DO was really into this and wound up featuring some of the most godawful games ever featuring terrible actors dressed in even worse costumes. The period DID have a few cult classics though like "The Horde" which starred Kirk Cameron (from Growing Pains) where the digitization didn't have much to do with the gameplay.

A lot of people like me pointed out that this was pretty much the same kind of garbage, just replacing the digitized actors with high quality "uncanny valley" animations to create a semi-interactive cartoon with a "serious" plotline, and got kind of battered badly even if we saw where it was going (that happens with me now).

Today guys like David Cage, high on the hype and praise they received before the gamers and the industry regained their sanity, suffer from cases of unwarrented self importance, and come accross as being both out of touch with reality and utterly pretentious.

That said, Heavy Rain *does* deserve praise for pulling of a few high quality, and sometimes fairly gruelling, scenes. But that's more a standout for a game that came accross as a movie, and had fairly good direction for a movie. It also admittedly touched some chords with some people in the interactions (like father and son) but again, you really can't do a lot to really "play" the game or signifigantly alter the outcome. At the end of the day it's a movie that let's you do exciting things like take control of brushing your character's teeth, and other exercises in sometimes absurd monotiny, on the way to it's handfull of genuinely clever moments.

Such are my thoughts. People praised some of the things the best moments of Heavy Rain made them feel, which has actually caused David Cage to forget pretty much everything everyone said about it, especially once the hype died down, and indeed occasionally sound like a self-help guru setting out to form his own cult of virtual polygon emotions.

Geezus dood write a god damn book why don't ya. Cage is a hack but sure his games are admiral in some respects, his company is one of few trying to do some unique things with the medium in regards to further expanding what a game can and cannot be and do but the way they keep missing so many key things and relying so crucially on just copying film is completely against how games should be evolving story telling wise. I like what they "want" to achieve bout the how, why and final results are laughable. A single environment in Half Life 2 tells a better story than any moment in Heavy Rain.

Zimushumzimushunzimushumzimushunzi!

The_Echo:
That was a good parody; I chuckled a fair amount. I think that bloating his statements from the Sony thing into some big ol' thing is a bit much. Still funny, and extra points for committing to the joke the whole video.

But the implication that Cage's games are 'filth' in the beginning there? I mean... I thought they were good...

I haven't played any of his games but they do seem intriguing, Beyond Two Souls looks like it's going to be good but not good enough for me to buy a PS3 this late in the generation. Still the sort BS reminded me of the PS4 announcement thing.

Surely the mechanics are the most important part of a game, then the writing/story, and then the graphics. After all you play games rather than watch them.

I didn't understand this. :(

Something to do with polygons and emotions? What's the connection?

AyaReiko:

Legion:
Hmm, I liked the subject matter, and it was a good parody, but I think it'd have worked better if perhaps the David Cage mockery was done for maybe the first minute or so, then the rest as normal.

It was good, I just felt the joke was wearing a little thin by the end.

Agree, I pretty much fell asleep after the first minute.

I made it half way through the video before saying "Well thats enough of that.."

Joke woulda been fine for 1-2 minutes, but it just dragged on, get to your normal stuff jim ~.~

Jim your David Cage comes off as a bit Tommy Wiseau. But then again, everyone one in Ethan's family in "Heavy Rain" had that accent. You should wear a David Cage mask to conventions and say "Oh hi, Mark" to people. It would be glorious! And creepy! GLORPY!

The_Echo:
That was a good parody; I chuckled a fair amount. I think that bloating his statements from the Sony thing into some big ol' thing is a bit much. Still funny, and extra points for committing to the joke the whole video.

But the implication that Cage's games are 'filth' in the beginning there? I mean... I thought they were good...

He didnt say filth, he said film, implying that David Cage would rather be a movie director than make video games.

Gah, he went crazy, someone call the guys with the straitjackets in pack...

On topic:
Ok, point taken, partially because of the mind melting parodie, i admit, but please, don't do that again.
Wasn't it last year when some devs explained over the latest high end graphics, that video game graphics can hardly get any more hyperrealistic and that this is the very reason devs should reconsider their focus or something?
But honestly, as long as there are others who know how to prove douches like David Cage wrong and bring us stuff like 'Lone Survivor', 'To The Moon' or in a way even 'Hotline Miami' (mind tripping as it is) i won't really care about those rather ridicules statements.

I loved this episode so much

zebon:
Needed less David Cage impression and more discussing why his views are delusional.

I think it did a perfectly good job of showing why his views are delusional.

So... that was pretty fucking pointless. Seriously, was this whole episode just about making fun of David Cage? Because I didn't get any other content out of this.

Usually I love watching Jimquisition for the great points he raises, but this one seemed more like a red herring...

Block Jim on twitter... that's a paddlin'

Tell Jim you're gonna "fuck him up" for dissing someone on Twitter... that's a paddlin'

Seems like if you want a Jimquisition episode devoted to you or someone you love, giving Jim flak on twitter is the way to go.

Can we get back to the jurnalizm bit now?

s_h_a_d_o:

cyvaris:
That was....interesting and a great parody.

Not really.

David Cage may appear to commit the crime of pretentiousness at times, however that is often the case with those who are both passionate and creative.

Until Jim actually demonstrates some talent in respect to the latter, he strikes me as guilty to a far greater degree.

Have you played any of Quantic Dreams' games?

Trollhoffer:

JohnnyDelRay:
Another thing that comes to mind, the Extra Credits episode a while back about game soundtracks. Why are they so much more 'memorable' and amazing from the 8 and 16-bit days? Because of the limited sounds and instruments that could be programmed into each game, they had to rely on making the melodies really catchy and stick in your mind, and also to not get annoying. This took a lot of work and ingenuity of course.

But does that mean that nowadays, we shouldn't have the beautifully composed, layered orchestras that accompany games like Final Fantasy and Mass Effect, or Jesper Kyd's atmospheric sounds? That option is to us, and does it not succeed in creating emotion when used effectively? Do you want to go back to 16-bit sounds? Ok, I myself remember soundtracks from games I played in those days, very guilty of it in fact (hardly remember themes of these days longer than a few months after putting a game down, except for Skyrim), but I'm glad we have the technology and continue to push it. There's nothing wrong with pushing these boundaries, people!

The thing is that the "rules" for creating good music have remained constant. Additional tools have certainly empowered game music, but it's interesting to note that a lot of the best video game music is modern arrangements of those 8 and 16-bit classics. Having authentic instruments playing those pieces absolutely makes them better, in my book. But they were composed so gracefully in the first place that they don't hinge on modern technological capacities in delivering music within video games, and there's no doubt a lot of modern games suffer from a lack of good music -- especially the ones in a place to deliver something amazing.

Many of the biggest games of our generation have failed to deliver memorable music. God of War, Call of Duty, World of Warcraft and so on. These are games that have earned a lot of attention, money and gameplay hours, but they don't have a musical experience that's just as effective outside of the game. In comparison, games like The Legend of Zelda and Final Fantasy have extremely memorable music that carries the meaning of its original context outside of the game experience itself.

Also, the difference in cost of producing an 8-bit track and an orchestral theme is tiny in comparison to the money the average AAA game pisses away on graphics.

Preacher zer0:
Block Jim on twitter... that's a paddlin'

Tell Jim you're gonna "fuck him up" for dissing someone on Twitter... that's a paddlin'

Seems like if you want a Jimquisition episode devoted to you or someone you love, giving Jim flak on twitter is the way to go.

Can we get back to the jurnalizm bit now?

That's a pretty stack of irony you've built there.

JudgeGame:

s_h_a_d_o:

cyvaris:
That was....interesting and a great parody.

Not really.

David Cage may appear to commit the crime of pretentiousness at times, however that is often the case with those who are both passionate and creative.

Until Jim actually demonstrates some talent in respect to the latter, he strikes me as guilty to a far greater degree.

Have you played any of Quantic Dreams' games?

Yes.
Which one of those critically-acclaimed games did you have in mind, particularly?
(and perhaps, a point to make?)

s_h_a_d_o:

JudgeGame:

s_h_a_d_o:

Not really.

David Cage may appear to commit the crime of pretentiousness at times, however that is often the case with those who are both passionate and creative.

Until Jim actually demonstrates some talent in respect to the latter, he strikes me as guilty to a far greater degree.

Have you played any of Quantic Dreams' games?

Yes.
Which one of those critically-acclaimed games did you have in mind, particularly?

The ones that had cringeworthy dialogue, really uncanny character animations and a plot that seemed to be written while dropping acid (i.e. almost all of them).

PS I forgot to add that they are cliche-riddled in the worst way.

JudgeGame:

[snip]

The ones that had cringeworthy dialogue, really uncanny character animations and a plot that seemed to be written while dropping acid (i.e. almost all of them).

PS I forgot to add that they are cliche-riddled in the worst way.

And what was your point?
I'm not debating a lack of pretension on the part of Cage - merely indicating that it is at least born of passionate creativity (the success or failure of which is irrelevant). Jim's display of that same trait stems from critical negation and destruction, and therefore has less merit.

s_h_a_d_o:

JudgeGame:

[snip]

The ones that had cringeworthy dialogue, really uncanny character animations and a plot that seemed to be written while dropping acid (i.e. almost all of them).

PS I forgot to add that they are cliche-riddled in the worst way.

And what was your point?
I'm not debating a lack of pretension on the part of Cage - merely indicating that it is at least born of passionate creativity (the success or failure of which is irrelevant). Jim's display of that same trait stems from critical negation and destruction, and therefore has less merit.

I don't see the creativity. Nothing about Indigo Prophecy or Heavy Rain shows any evidence of intention. They are just the result of regurgitating random segments of other people's work at a canvas hoping it sticks not knowing why you are doing it.

I fail to see why you want to shoe-horn Jim into the discussion when:
a) Your claim that he has no creativity is discounted by the 100+ videos he's posted on this site alone, without even considering his much, much larger body of work.
b) Your argument of calling out hypocrisy would only make sense if Jim's was an isolated opinion, which it isn't. There are a lot of people who question Cage's abilities and his lack of self-awareness.
c) Coming out with such an unfounded claim only serves to further discredit your opinion.

While I do think David Cage is incapable of creativity, I'm not saying there is nothing to praise in Quantic Dreams' games. A lot of people work on these games and some of those people manage to inject their own energy into them. This doesn't mean that the writing isn't terrible, the characters aren't rendered like homonculi or that it's possible to make any sense out of these schizophrenic narratives. When David Cage gets up on stage to spout his delusional, borderline harmful insights into what makes a good game, it's difficult to hear him say games need more mature stories and more realistic looking characters when his own work looks like the result of a 6 year old's Summer homework. It's hard to see him do that while he continues to gain attention and influence and not come out and declare that the emperor has no clothes.

Preacher zer0:
Block Jim on twitter... that's a paddlin'

Tell Jim you're gonna "fuck him up" for dissing someone on Twitter... that's a paddlin'

Paddlin' without a canoe? You better believe that's a paddlin'...

On topic (tangentially), Jim did a piece a little awhile ago about how the gaming tech is only as good as the game it supports. Cage's attitude seems to be directly symptomatic of that conceit.

"Sure our game is boring and lifeless with all the soul of an American teen pop-star. But check out how cooooool it looks."

This is gaming industry wide and it's getting worse. So I thank Jim for his piece.

And thank GOD...for Jim.

JudgeGame:

I don't see the creativity. Nothing about Indigo Prophecy or Heavy Rain shows any evidence of intention. They are just the result of regurgitating random segments of other people's work at a canvas hoping it sticks not knowing why you are doing it.

Your myopia is not the issue, and I don't equate creativity with innovation.

I fail to see why you want to shoe-horn Jim into the discussion when:
a) Your claim that he has no creativity is discounted by the 100+ videos he's posted on this site alone, without even considering his much, much larger body of work.
b) Your argument of calling out hypocrisy would only make sense if Jim's was an isolated opinion, which it isn't. There are a lot of people who question Cage's abilities and his lack of self-awareness.
c) Coming out with such an unfounded claim only serves to further discredit your opinion.

I did not state Jim wasn't capable of creativity, only that imho he doesn't show much talent in that regard, and thereby his own stance seems more pretentious than the one he rails against.

While I do think David Cage is incapable of creativity, I'm not saying there is nothing to praise in Quantic Dreams' games. A lot of people work on these games and some of those people manage to inject their own energy into them. This doesn't mean that the writing isn't terrible, the characters aren't rendered like homonculi or that it's possible to make any sense out of these schizophrenic narratives. When David Cage gets up on stage to spout his delusional, borderline harmful insights into what makes a good game, it's difficult to hear him say games need more mature stories and more realistic looking characters when his own work looks like the result of a 6 year old's Summer homework. It's hard to see him do that while he continues to gain attention and influence and not come out and declare that the emperor has no clothes.

Once again, you're putting words in my mouth. I don't argue in support of Cage's proselytising, but rather that he at least takes an approach that strives to advance creativity, in contrast to Jim's approach which is to mock and denigrate in a non-constructive manner.

s_h_a_d_o:

JudgeGame:

I don't see the creativity. Nothing about Indigo Prophecy or Heavy Rain shows any evidence of intention. They are just the result of regurgitating random segments of other people's work at a canvas hoping it sticks not knowing why you are doing it.

Your myopia is not the issue, and I don't equate creativity with innovation.

I fail to see why you want to shoe-horn Jim into the discussion when:
a) Your claim that he has no creativity is discounted by the 100+ videos he's posted on this site alone, without even considering his much, much larger body of work.
b) Your argument of calling out hypocrisy would only make sense if Jim's was an isolated opinion, which it isn't. There are a lot of people who question Cage's abilities and his lack of self-awareness.
c) Coming out with such an unfounded claim only serves to further discredit your opinion.

I did not state Jim wasn't capable of creativity, only that imho he doesn't show much talent in that regard, and thereby his own stance seems more pretentious than the one he rails against.

While I do think David Cage is incapable of creativity, I'm not saying there is nothing to praise in Quantic Dreams' games. A lot of people work on these games and some of those people manage to inject their own energy into them. This doesn't mean that the writing isn't terrible, the characters aren't rendered like homonculi or that it's possible to make any sense out of these schizophrenic narratives. When David Cage gets up on stage to spout his delusional, borderline harmful insights into what makes a good game, it's difficult to hear him say games need more mature stories and more realistic looking characters when his own work looks like the result of a 6 year old's Summer homework. It's hard to see him do that while he continues to gain attention and influence and not come out and declare that the emperor has no clothes.

Once again, you're putting words in my mouth. I don't argue in support of Cage's proselytising, but rather that he at least takes an approach that strives to advance creativity, in contrast to Jim's approach which is to mock and denigrate in a non-constructive manner.

I don't think you kmow enough about Jim Sterling to make that claim with any kind of legitimacy. If you did, you probably wouldn't want to. On another note, Jim's video had plenty of perfectly constructive criticism. It is hidden under a thin layer of sarcasm but it is there if you want to listen to it.

hahaha. this here /[o.O]\ has more emotion than that old guys wooden unmoving face.

Thinking about it, jim just made a 5 minute reference video to something that only he seems to know a lot about it. Coulda used a link or something to clarify his animosity. That said I think he's offkey on this. This is a french company that makes these games. I think a lot of that is lost in translation. I watch a lot of french and foreign and find that the emotion is found onscreen and not in dialog. In Heavy Rain I found that while teh dialog and pacing stung my senses a bit what was actually shown onscreen was very touching.

I would argue that Team Bondi got alot closer to the goal with their facial capture tech in L.A Noire.
I played Heavy Rain and enjoyed it, but I feel a certain dislike for David Cage because of the way he speaks in interviews
and press conferences. he comes off as extremely arrogant and sees himself as a visionary, he actively dismisses other game genres and games developers as meaningless and violent and speaks as though his games are the inevitable future of all video games, as if the only way to express anything valuable is through the language of film. I think there is room in the world for his games but I would like to see him give some more credit to his team of artists, and put a bit more "game" into his games.

for once, a really enjoyable show

This is seriously one of the best episodes yet. I laughed so hard, and yet it still managed to deliver your point completely.

hrm... really not feeling this one at all.

Seņor Sterling just comes off as a bully, making fun of the little fat boy who likes ballet. Following him around and doing exaggerated, parodic impressions of him in the halls between classes so that all the other kids will laugh at him.

Nobody is forcing you to go to his recitals Jim.

I don't really see the point, the purpose or the motive behind this kind of engagement other than that Jim might just be a giant fucking douchebag.

Flunk:
I found this episode very boring, maybe if I cared who David Cage was I would have cared more.

Here ya go. Rage with the rest of us. :P

http://www.screwattack.com/shows/partners/game-overthinker/episode-82-never-grow-old

Quick summary, the guest speakers talk a few good points. But go about it the wrong way. It's a 20+ minute long show. So get yourself comfortable. :P

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