No Right Answer: Greatest Cybernetic Threat to Humanity Ever

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Greatest Cybernetic Threat to Humanity Ever

Kyle and Dan finally take the fan's advice and add some serious debate structure. Do you guys like what you see?

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So Dan, you think the Borg are The_root_of_all_evil?
We're never getting rid of zombies are we?

From what I can tell, the Borg brainwash you(not really, but something akin to that) which is way more evil and terrifying than just being outright killed; suppressing my free will and using me as a tool to destroy everything I cherish is a scarier notion than just being killed/outbred by the Cylons.

I'm a bit perplexed by the new system, perhaps thats the hangover.

OT: Yeah, the BORG are far more terrifyin. Having my free will suppressed is far more horrible than being infiltrated, at least in my books.

Maybe I'm not too familiar with "debate structure", but it didn't seem all that different to me. Only thing was them defining requirements at the beginning.

I'll go with the Cyber Cthulhu, Reapers. (There is an anime Mass Effect so it counts ;) )

I would have said Borg years ago, but then Voyager happened.... I am surprised the Daleks or Cybermen didn't make the battle.

Borg assimilate technology not culture Dan. If they assimilated our culture they'd have to take in Justin Beiber and then they'd end up with a brain aneurysm.

The Borg win over the cylons because they're not exclusive--they're out to conquer everyone whereas the Cylons just have a grudge against humans.

Not sure about the "serious" approach. Maybe with some practice it'll get better.

Guys, it's the microwave. The evil you least expect.

I think Skynet's cyborg assassins get points for having infinite do-overs via time travel.

Annnd it's relevant XKCD comic time!

image

The Borg are a Homogenising Swarm as defined by von Neumann probes idea.

The Cylons are AI/ALF, not cyborgs.

Well I love Star Trek, but really, this is a competition?

The Borg are completely pathetic against humanity. They were defeated again and again and again by a single ship or even single human (which one depends on the series). They were almost wiped out a few times, saved only by human mercy. Even the Borg queen stated several times how they will never be able to defeat humanity with their standard methods. So they tried to adapt... And failed. Again. Pathetic.

Now Cylons on the other hand, have wiped out several planets at once, defeating all the humanity defenses with a single stroke, killing pretty much everyone except of a few thousands. And they achieved it by being smart.

Now, Borg are definitely able to wipe out or assimilate entire races, but as a thread against HUMANITY, they're less dangerous than cockroaches. And let's not forget their debacle with species 8472.

One more thing: humans were able to infiltrate Borg easily several times, beginning with a young couple travelling with a small child. They were assimilated only when they became too arrogant. Cylons infiltrated the highest human military positions and most were discovered only when they went 'oh hai btw we're cylons'. Again, Borg = stupid and pathetic, Cylon = smart and deadly.

What? No Cybermen? No Skynet/Terminators? I am disappoint...

PLEASE tell me some of you are disappoint as well.

I think the fact the Borg won was right but for the wrong reason. What makes them terrifying to me is that every moment you are transformed you can fell the implants going into your skin and limbs and bodyparts being removed and cut off. Until your mind is locked you feel everything that is happening even the implants being put into your brain and that is truly horrifying.It sort or makes Jigsaw's torture from saw look tame. The Psylons, you're going to die or manipulated which you can recover from but the borg.... even if you get rescued some how. You will never be the same person your were before.

GamemasterAnthony:
What? No Cybermen? No Skynet/Terminators? I am disappoint...

PLEASE tell me some of you are disappoint as well.

Yea, I agree they left some pretty big contenders out of the argument.

God dammit, it all comes down to the Godwin's law doesn't it.

I think the definition of Cyborg needs to be expanded on a bit, because from where I sit cybord needs to be a melding of biological and mechanical which the Borg are and the Cylons aren't, they just fake it really well. IMO it has to be the reapers from Mass effect

Smokey the Bear walks out....

"Only you can prevent zombies."

Shalok:
Cylons aren't [Cyborgs], they just fake it really well.

^This, which also rules out Skynet as a whole, although the later films do involve at least one true cyborg. I'm not an expert on the canon though.

Also, I think that "biggest threat" is an interesting statement. It could mean in absolute terms - so a "bigger threat" would be the one which could kill more humans - or relative terms - so a "bigger threat" would be more likely to wipe out humanity, or stunt our growth indefinitely.

Finally, people are suggesting the Cybermen as a contender her but I think that's a little pointless given how much more of a threat the Daleks (Who perhaps should have been considered) were shown to be at Canary Wharf :P

I loved the comparison of Facebook to the Borg. Genius.

The Replicators!

Now i have to type a few more words so I don't get another warning

The borg easly. Why? well when Picard become Locutus of borg he admitted to still being their, in the back of its hive, trying to help trying to stop what he become and failing, can you imagine that horror, to have your consciousness their and be slowly destroyed while you are powerless to do a thing about it. SCARY FUCKING SHIT.

Oh so you're using 8bits healthbar eh?

Anyway to me the Borg view as the bigger threat since they weren't just assimilating the human race, they were assimilating any alien races they encounter! Last time I've check the Battlestar remake was just Cylon vs human while the original did had some aliens in it but I can't remnember if the Cylon attacked them aswell. So for the Borg attacking everyone make them as the bigger threat in my view.

I laughed at the "join us on facebook", when you described the borg. It's too true, and why I try not to use facebook more than I need too.

I liked this episode, not sure what you did, but it felt more thought through than the others I've seen. I have not seen that many to be honest though.

Captcha: Nercolas Cerg. lol. Feels strangely relevant.

GamemasterAnthony:
What? No Cybermen? No Skynet/Terminators? I am disappoint...

PLEASE tell me some of you are disappoint as well.

While I was thinking skynet when I first saw the title and cybermen are awesome, kind of like the borg when you think about it, both of them are constantly being thwarted by a couple of people and an outdated machine. Skynet by John, his mom or girlfriend, or just his mom and dad depending on what terminator you're watching, and an old T-100. The cybermen by the Doctor, whoever happens to be his companion at that time, and an older model, somewhat unreliable, TARDIS with broken camouflage. The people and machines are all still very impressive, but even the doctor is just one person, usually, and he would have probably been killed, killed more/permanently I guess, if his enemies weren't constantly putting their evil plans on hold to hear him give a speech.

Ethnic cleanse, being worked on by Herbal Essence

I almost fell out of my chair laughing :)

GamemasterAnthony:
What? No Cybermen? No Skynet/Terminators? I am disappoint...

PLEASE tell me some of you are disappoint as well.

While I was thinking skynet when I first saw the title and cybermen are awesome, kind of like the borg when you think about it, both of them are constantly being thwarted by a couple of people and an outdated machine. Skynet by John, his mom or girlfriend, or just his mom and dad depending on what terminator you're watching, and an old T-100. The cybermen by the Doctor, whoever happens to be his companion at that time, and an older model, somewhat unreliable, TARDIS with broken camouflage. The people and machines are all still very impressive, but even the doctor is just one person, usually, and he would have probably been killed, killed more/permanently I guess, if his enemies weren't constantly putting their evil plans on hold to hear him give a speech.

I'd have to say the Borg. The Cylons have a better chance of winning, but that's because their enemy is so pathetic. I can't count the number of Battlestar Galactica episodes I've seen where the Cylons don't even do anything, and everything still manages to go to shit. If the enemies were switched the Borg Collective would have assimilated all of humanity already, and the Cylons would probably have been dealt with a long time ago.

The machines from the Matrix. They won...even when they lose, they still win. They drove humanity to the brink on several occasions and would have continued were it not for Smith...and an awful script.

You know, I think you missed some fairly major points on both sides here. The Borg have got the whole body horror, invasion of personal and mental space thing going for them. If I get assimilated, I'm still alive, but I just got violated and mind raped and reduced to a tiny voice in the corner of my brain overwhelmed by the voice of the Collective. In my opinion, that's worse than death. This also plays into fears about the dark side of the onward march technology.

On the Cylon side (note, I've never actually seen an episode of BSG - this knowledge is largely coming from TvTropes...) you've got questions of identity - you don't actually know whether you're human, or whether you're an infiltrator Cylon that just hasn't been activated yet. That's a constant life of terror - especially if (as I think is correct) it's possible for you to be replaced, with all of your memories intact in the new Cylon you, so even if you've somehow checked in the past that you are human, you still might not be NOW.

Back to the Borg - there's two more 'minor' issues. One: They own a good third of the Galaxy, so they vastly outnumber us. Two, they adapt to any strategy used against them. In combination: You either need a superweapon to take them all out at once, or you're in for a War of Attrition where you must be constantly innovating. So, in the long run, I think Borg beat Cylons hands down.

To say the Borg got trounced by Humanity in all the episodes well that is true, but they were fighting on almost equal levels of technology. After Wolf 359 Starfleet had so much brown faecal matter in its trousers that it built dedicated warships for the first time in its history.

The Borg also reduce your mind to one of Trillions swimming around in a massive 'cloud' which main purpose is to make that 'cloud' bigger and better. Your body is to serve the function of the Collective and your mind is there to process all that information. The person that is you is in a corner, and observer of all the things that your body is doing no matter how much you try to take back control.

You guys got the health bar backwards; when a person made an argument, their health bar went down, and Dan won by having less health at the end.

I thought the cylons were technically Androids...

I'm going with the Borg as well. Mostly due to the whole eaten alive thing from the inside out thing. And fundimentally, the Borg are actually about a technological threat to us. The Cylons? Not so much...

My problem with the Cylons as a concept, is that anytime you try and explain why they're evil, you start to sound at best like General Ripper, talking about the pollution of his precious bodily fluids. And at worse like a race/religion supremacist, talking about how (for example) gay people and other minorities are 'corrupting' our culture. Especially when you fixate on the humanoid models in the slinky red dresses, which for all intents and purposes reduces Cylons to a nation/minority of humans. A key idea behind the Cylons is that it is okay, and indeed, a civic duty, to fear and hate such groups.

Yes it's a TV show, and it's supposed to be about terrorism, (and this is a very silly video not meant to be about anything serious) but that's still a seriously screwed up message which audiences which have and will apply to other groups that are far less deserving of such views, and it should not be encouraged. And it has absolutely nothing to do with cybernetics in any sense of the word. So yeah. They loose by default.

In other media, yes the Daleks and Terminators are also extremely strong contenders, and both arguably more so than the Cylons. Pity it can't be a four way.

The Cylons should have been disqualified right off the bat. The Cylons are robots, entitely aritificial intelligences, as opposed to Cyborgs (a man/machine fusion).

What's more when you get into the basic concepts of the respective series, when you omit all of the trippy space angel stuff they through into the new Battlestar Galactica to try and wrap up the series in a profound way when they had no frakking clue what they were doing, the basic Cylon threat was more a failure of humanity. You basically had a genocidal machine uprising, humanity won, but then due to morality decided "we are going to show mercy and spare these maniacs", creating a peace treaty which was admittedly "violated" by a handfull of people who still had a brain keeping an eye on them, people who were basically ignored due to moralists making "peace at any price" arguements and not wanting to accept the continued threat or the central problem of what amounted to genocidal robots. In some respects BSG mirrors modern right wing vs. left wing politics, in the way we tend to ignore threats by foreign powers for moral reasons, demonoize the destruction of entire cultures and ways of life that happen to be a threat to everyone else, and other things while those groups continue to build up. An example of sorts with be "North Korea" we laugh at them while they build failing missle programs and threaten to nuke the US, but we pretty much continue to let them exist and keep plugging away at it, it won't be so amusing if they succeed due to sheer "can do" attitude and actually DO develop the technology to start launching missles into the US. It's similar to how in the "new" Battlestar Galactica people ignored the Cylons until they developed infiltrators, viral weapons to shut down technology, and a huge space fleet, and attacked. On some levels it can be taken as a sort of warning about our attitudes towards groups like North Korea, China, The Middle East, etc... albiet through analogy to not offend anyone. The original BSG also had these elements which pretty much came down to a less developed "hey, the Cylons have killed everyone else, but let's believe they want peace... it's the moral thing to do to lower our defenses and open negotiations" that didn't end well, and pretty much the one ship full of militants who didn't entirely stand down became the last hope for humanity... whether you agree with the political analogies or not (and most here will not) the bottom line is that not only are the Cylons not really cyborgs, but artificial life (as far as I understand it) but they only represent a threat because people were morons in dealing with them. It's more a matter of "look at how stupid we were, and the mess we got into", leading to tales in both series about how a handfull of military people who did their job are left trying to protect the last surviving human civilians from the result of their own stupidity which brought humanity to the edge of genocide. I mean there is kind of a reason why everyone is kind of busting Adama's stones for being a "paranoid" at the beginning of the new series in paticular, while he keeps his "flying museum" combat ready, only to find out he's right, which should have been kind of obvious when you look at the big picture, but it goes to say that even today in real life people don't want to see it.

At any rate, when it comes to "The Borg" it should be noted that they represent a threat that even with very intelligent and motivated action... pretty much every galactic empire there is rapidly coming to the realization that there is no negotiation here, and putting them on a "kill on sight" list, these guys keep coming, and coming, and becoming increasingly stronger while attacking on new and exciting fronts like time and experimenting with transdimensional technologies just to try and kill/adapt everyone else. They are like cockroaches, something you just can't get rid of no matter how uniited you are, except in this cases the cockroaches are aggressive, intelligent, have adaptive technology, and the abillity to not only decimate planetary populations, but become stronger by doing so.

Now if you want more of a cybernetic threat a better match up with have been to put The Borg up against the Daleks (who are organic, and rely on a symbiotic relationship with machines to survive) or perhaps the old school "Mechanoids" created by Palladium, before they got a little more common sense and made them more realistic/common sense oriented when they were brought into the RIFTS era. Old School Mechanoids were pretty much "yahoo" science fiction at it's finest with the then less seasoned writers talking about fleets of like 40 billion ships fighting and dying without any conception of how big those numbers were (as well as some rather bad math when it came to space travel speeds if I remember because that really wasn't the point so much as "hey look, murderous cyborgs that have already conquered 5 galaxies and turned them into non-stop production factories and now their armies are coming for you!). The mechanoids are not only blobs linked into ginormous cyborg bodies, but also happen to be highly psionic. :)

I'm always sad when Kyle is opposite my choice :(

The Borg are by far more dangerous.
Humans in Star Trek are extremely intelligent beings who are able to weigh bigger issues at a glance and always seek out peaceful resolutions(While this isn't always the case, that's the point of Star Trek, striving to become more than you are, be a better person, seek enlightenment through others. Obviously this would be extremely boring to watch, so there are still humans, even high ranking starfleet officers, who are narrowminded and eager to go to war).

The Borg are the ultimate threat in every way. They cannot be reasoned with, they are technologically far more advanced, they are smarter than us(logically), they are more durable, they have no fear, regret or interest in peace and they pose a much greater threat than simply just killing humans.
They strip humans of individuality, they remove all wants and needs, all adversity which makes us stronger, all spirituality. They become stronger as humans become weaker. While there is a end in sight with Cylons, there is no end to the Borg. If they ever brought their fleet to Earth, humanity would lose in moments.

Cylons just want to kill us. It's a mostly quantifiable threat for everyone, as sneaky as they may be, you just point at them and shoot. They make us stronger, by being so pointlessly "evil", it's much easier to rise up against.

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