Every Other Game Ever

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Every Other Game Ever

It actually is a valid point.

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I always had to laugh about that. In every shooter, you kill (at the very minimum) a small countries populous worth of enemies; and your character just moves on like nothing abnormal is happening. Uncharted was the absolute worst about this (although I hear the new Tomb Raider is pretty bad about it as well).

Oh come on! It's not like any of them had name tags. Everyone knows minions are a free pass.

IIRC this is an almost literal quote from Spec Ops: The Line, amiright?

I have depopulated countries.

True, it'd be nice to see a game where these one man armies try to re-integrate into a normal civilian life

Don't they actually admit it's a valid point in Metal Gear Rising?

My answer: "No I'm not, this is my pacifist run." If there are bodies on the floor, they're probably just unconscious, probably.

mayney93:
True, it'd be nice to see a game where these one man armies try to re-integrate into a normal civilian life

Not a game, but here's how it might go:

image

Grey Carter:
Yes, including Tetris.

Pfft, not true at all. You launch the nuke after finishing Tetris...

Problem is, it's about as valid a point as "You had to kill innocent german soldiers to stop Hitler!"

In some cases, it's the exact same argument.

Especially the ones you don't think of. Perhaps it's true of action games, but think of the sheer horror one inflicts on almost completely innocent and often outright docile creatures, people and beings in, like, the Kirby games? Or We Love Katamari!

Goddamn Katamari rolls up almost every sentient thing in the universe (and their possessions) because that clumsy King fucker dropped his wine glass or served a clumsy shot in a game of tennis. It's sadistic.

Meh, depends on the game and context. More often than not, the reason you massacre a small nations worth of people is because those people try and kill you on sight. If the game allowed you the choice of killing those people or not, then the point would be valid if you choose the former.

I love that the premise of Taken 2 was pretty much about the repercussions of what this strip addresses.

This is why I mainly use the Morningstar sniper rifle in Borderlands 2. Constant reminder of my murderous ways...

Heh, well context counts for a lot. If the protagonist's motivation was to stop the villain from, say, setting off a bomb under a school for underprivileged orphans or something equivalently malevolent, then yeah, he may be killing a lot in terms of numbers, but it's cause he's trying to protect innocent folks from a bunch of bloodthirsty ass holes.

On the -other- hand, if he's going around cracking smart ass remarks like Duke Nukem...then yeah, he is pretty psychotic.

In short; the protagonist may be deranged, that's true...but that doesn't justify the villain's own demented behavior, either. Like Sylvester Stallone said in "Demolition Man," send a maniac to catch one.

AnarchistAbe:
I always had to laugh about that. In every shooter, you kill (at the very minimum) a small countries populous worth of enemies; and your character just moves on like nothing abnormal is happening. Uncharted was the absolute worst about this (although I hear the new Tomb Raider is pretty bad about it as well).

Actually if you don't kill everyone you meet on sight if you eavesdrop on the conversations the game does a decent job of making everyone you kill fill like they an individual that later or earlier enemies refer to... Except when you are in areas where you have to be spotted and 15+ enemies show up over the next few minutes those guys tend to not have names but at one point a conversation can be heard along the lines of:

Guy:Come on, she's just one girl!!
Guy 2: Yeah but that one girl is kick'n are asses.

But the story does "mostly" kind of explain how they have such an army on the island. Though I find the "Oni" completely puzzling. (Shudder) Unless what I just thought of might be an answer.

I'm a mass murderer? THEY ATTACKED ME FIRST! It was only self-defense. If they would have ignored me, I would have ignored them. (Or potentially thrown a rock at their head to piss them off at each other or something)

Doesn't Metal Gear Solid do this good?

Snake knows not to glorify killing and acknowledges that heroes aren't so different from mad men

Been playing through the series and that's the message I'm getting

And it lets you go for a no kill playthrough and to only kill when it is absolutely necessary

Well, in almost any video game, or PnP RPG for that matter, you easily rack up more kills than any real soldier or warrior likely did IRL in order to maintain a constant enviroment of action and challenge. The needs of an adventure game pretty much create a need for an unrealistic set of circumsances, which makes trying to judge things by conventional wisdom impossible, if occasionally amusing.

My basic arguement in situations like this is that it's justified due to all of these minions choosing to join the evil organization and follow the big bad, and/or by them trying to kill you. I mean technically your average soldier of the evil empire (whether it's a Nazi or a member of the Imperial military in Star Wars) could have chosen to not enlist, desert, etc... and take the penelties for that rather than deciding to tote a gun and try and use it on you. Given that the plot of these games also usually involves you doing something over the top, like say preventing the Nazis from summoning Cthulhu, it's even less morally ambigious since all of those guys between you and the big bad pretty much decided it was better to see the world flamed (probably due to promises of personal wealth and power) than try and stop the guys behind it themselves, or just plain out refuse to be part of something like this. In most games, though not all, your dealing with exceptional situations where any kind of real perspective is irrelevent. I mean even "historical" games trying to be realistic seem to give guys like Hitler an endless array of super-secret weapon programs hidden inside of mountain doom fortresses for you to go after and remove all moral ambigiouity from the situation.... the context of a game manages to make things both noble and a hero sane within their own own little virtual world, which is presenting a crazy situation to begin with. I mean it's hard to judge killing 1,000 people with a shotgun in a video game seriously to begin with given that killing that many people in personal combat is pretty much impossible to begin with, even for career soldiers in the middle of war. I suppose maybe you might be able to do it with artillery or cruise missles or whatever, but that wouldn't be the kind of personal combat we see in games.

As far as "Spec. Ops: The Line" goes, I never thought much of it's twist. But then again I've never been a big fan of deconstructionist movements when it comes to fantasy. You have to get into reconstuctionist movements for things to really get good to me. It's relatively easy to point out how silly the idea of a super hero is, or how F@cked up the events in a shooter video game are when viewed outside of their intended context, but when you can do that, acknowlege the points, and then rebuild it back into more or less what it was before, then your dealing with non-stop awesome.

To put things into a comics context, the deconstructionist movement was when people started trying to deal with super heroes in the real world (so to speak). Pointing out that costumes and masks were stupid, and asking the question as to why someone would rob banks or whatever when they could probably get people to pay them millions of dollars to use their powers in the private sector. The reconstructionist movement is when people started to point out that people still have conflicts, and those things are going to fuel confrontations, which in a world of super heroes means that those with powers are going to get involved. Wearing a mask is a way of avoiding accountability, since even as a good guy you don't want people to run around sueing you for saving their lives due to all the collateral damage if nothing else. People would rob banks because it's hard to finance a large scale agenda that people might not agree with if your earnings can easily be traced, etc... it all goes back to the same place it was to begin with, just with better explanations and more realistic motivations involved on all sides.

I think once people manage to concede some of the points made in "Spec Ops." but then manage to turn it back into say "Serious Sam" or "Duke Nukem" or other basic shooter while conceding it, it will be when the genere's writing has really come into it's own. The trick isn't so much to point out the absurdity of the number of people being killd like this strip and how the person doing it must be insane, but when you can acknowlege that, while still also conceding that the hero is sane and heroic despite everything he's done, with a full understanding of it.

My god, the blood bath that is Tetris. Thousands and thousands of blocks exploding, the mayhem!

Its not like there are no examples in other medias. Look at your average action/adventure film or novel and you will likely find a "hero" willing to depopulate a small village to get his.

crimson sickle2:
Don't they actually admit it's a valid point in Metal Gear Rising?

Yes, but then he conveniently forgets about it by the end of the level.
I think it was an interesting moment but got diluted by the Platinum wackiness that soon follow, and the number of soldiers that you are still "forced" to kill casually after that.

"Hey, Dudebro, you forgot some pickups on that box, near the dead guy. The other dead guy."

The really annoying part is when the protagonist leaves the big bad guy alive after killing dozens of dudes to get to him.

"You're not worth it!" yea bro, I bet the 15 guards you tossed off the Vatican wish that they weren't worth it.

DVS BSTrD:
Oh come on! It's not like any of them had name tags. Everyone knows minions are a free pass.

Yeah, everyone knows evil minions and villainous henchmen don't count.

It;s different when I do it!

bdcjacko:
I have depopulated countries.

To be fair, you are Augusto Pinochet.

this is why, in the context of the gaming worlds, Saint's Row has the most logical plot in all of gaming. for two longs, games have hidden psychotic protagonists right under our nose, and like a sociopath, we feel we are always justified.

it really reminds me of Falling Down when (SPOILERS!) at the end Michael Douglas just stops "....I'm the bad guy?"

hermes200:
Yes, but then he conveniently forgets about it by the end of the level.
I think it was an interesting moment but got diluted by the Platinum wackiness that soon follow, and the number of soldiers that you are still "forced" to kill casually after that.

You mean that section before Monsoon? Because at the end of the scene, his takeaway is that he doesn't care that he's murdering any more, and he doesn't consider himself a hero, something he's quick to remind people of.

ccdohl:
The really annoying part is when the protagonist leaves the big bad guy alive after killing dozens of dudes to get to him.

"You're not worth it!" yea bro, I bet the 15 guards you tossed off the Vatican wish that they weren't worth it.

You have Tir McDohl as your avatar. I love everything you post now, regardless of content.

(but funny point never the less)

Marik2:
Doesn't Metal Gear Solid do this good?

Snake knows not to glorify killing and acknowledges that heroes aren't so different from mad men

Been playing through the series and that's the message I'm getting

And it lets you go for a no kill playthrough and to only kill when it is absolutely necessary

Actually, the whole Big Boss story arc is about it!

You see, even as I fan of the series, I find that whole "Patriots/nanomachines/AIs/talking hands" too crazy for my taste. But, to me the whole Metal Gear Solid series can be seem as the tragic story of Big Boss.

Heroes, villains and mad men. Naked Snake is a bit of all these things, in some point he became more evil than what he was trying to fight.
It's like Star Wars, but his fall is much better realised than that of Anakin Skywalker.

Kojima ain't that good of a writer (but one of the best game designers in the world IMHO) and his limitations are showing more with each iteration.
But Big Boss is a helluva character and it keeps me mildly interested in the story.

hermes200:

crimson sickle2:
Don't they actually admit it's a valid point in Metal Gear Rising?

Yes, but then he conveniently forgets about it by the end of the level.
I think it was an interesting moment but got diluted by the Platinum wackiness that soon follow, and the number of soldiers that you are still "forced" to kill casually after that.

Well, I wouldn't say it got dilluted.
Actually, if you use the codec right after his team is a little shook up from what happened, and he is apologetic, but not denying what happened, what he said, or what he is.

To me that was a great moment for the character and he stood his ground as a maniacal killer. He goes so far as saying the he was fighting to save other people from the same fate as him.

Of course, then the game ends with a fight with "Senator Colossus" and a very long lecture about the dangers of letting Kojima Production writers unsupervised with their typewritters. That's dilluting, yes. But of the game as a whole and not of Raiden's "Jack the Ripper" revival.

IMO! :)

martyrdrebel27:
this is why, in the context of the gaming worlds, Saint's Row has the most logical plot in all of gaming. for two longs, games have hidden psychotic protagonists right under our nose, and like a sociopath, we feel we are always justified.

it really reminds me of Falling Down when (SPOILERS!) at the end Michael Douglas just stops "....I'm the bad guy?"

If you're going to post a spoiler, please use this:

Sure this film is 20 years old, and I don't have any plans on watching it anytime soon but some might and I'm sure they'd rather not have it spoilt in a comment section that's completely irrelevant to that movie.

Fasckira:

ccdohl:
The really annoying part is when the protagonist leaves the big bad guy alive after killing dozens of dudes to get to him.

"You're not worth it!" yea bro, I bet the 15 guards you tossed off the Vatican wish that they weren't worth it.

You have Tir McDohl as your avatar. I love everything you post now, regardless of content.

(but funny point never the less)

Finally, some respect.

I think that the first two Suikoden games are both top 10 games ever, and there is usually a lot of weight on the death of a character too, now that I think about it. Not that you don't bust up thousands of goons and monsters on the way to the emotional moments.

It's a little-known fact that the shapes in tetris are actually just 8-bit stylized falling corpses.

ccdohl:
Finally, some respect.

I think that the first two Suikoden games are both top 10 games ever, and there is usually a lot of weight on the death of a character too, now that I think about it. Not that you don't bust up thousands of goons and monsters on the way to the emotional moments.

100% agree!

And emotional weight on character death? The first time I played through S1 and

I lost it! :p

Actually, it'd be kind of cool to play through Suikoden 1 and keep track of number of enemies killed, various types, etc and compile one of those infographics...

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