Jimquisition: The Creepy Cull of Female Protagonists

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Good video. Videogames have an opportunity to let women take center stage and lead the story in compelling ways. It's a pile of shit that women, who have different mindsets and life challenges altogether, haven't been portrayed in a compelling way in videogames just yet. They have to have their specific needs characterized in homogeneous ways; need that health pack. Need that "mana" boost. There's not, "I'm having my period and I need to figure out how to avoid zombies smelling my blood." That's not a smarmy line of bullshit either. Maybe I'm too fucked up as a man to get at the meat of what a woman's experience in a conflict really is. I like games. I love them, in fact. I think this could be a viable next step for game makers. I also figure you have a lot of text to read Jim. Just trying to catch your eye I guess. Love the show, btw. I'd love a female developer to show me what it's like to be a woman in a game. Be unapologetic. Let me feel it through gameplay mechanics. I'll buy it if it's interesting and fun. I think that it's hard to sell "female life realities" as a fun game though. I don't know though. Resource management is resource management. Shit man. Man. See that? My signs of exasperation are to simply say "man". Why not woman? Women drive me nuts. Drive me nuts. OK. Think time. Bye all. You're great Jim. You set a grass fire in my noggin. Luckily, it should burn out within the hour.

GrimHeaper:

To love is to be able to objectify something or someone.
I hope everyone thinks long and hard what I just said so they can learn what that actually means.

It is confusing to refer to objectification in a grammatical sense during a broader discussion about the objectification of women, but perhaps there is a point to be made about how the very nature of human interaction objectifies those that partake of it.

Either way, objectification has multiple definitions.

I arrived at this thread approximately 17 hours after original posting of the video. There is currently 423 posts.

In 17 hours.

What I find sad is that a flame war RIVALING THAT ON GUNS, RELIGION, AND JUSTIFICATION FOR WARS, is still going on and still strong. On a subject that is essentially the same if you replaced word "Female" with "Black person" (I refuse to use African-American because it discriminates against Black Europeans, there found a PC way to end the use of the term African-American). That is right anyone saying that there is no sexism in games is the same as saying, Jim Crow Laws were not racist.

I agree with Jim 100% this time. This does not happen often, usually I agree with him about 70-80% (usually disagreeing on the solution or the severity of the problem). But in this case, he may be understating the problem a bit.

The comparative lack of female lead characters in games is a well established issues, but the other half of Jim's point is something that had never occurred to me before until he mentioned it. I can't think of a single game with a female lead I've played or heard of where the woman is in a romantic relationship. That is, when the character is explicitly the player. There is of course the build-your-own protagonist approach where there are "romance options" like in Skyrim or the Mass Effect/ Dragon Age approach but never any female characters that are explicitly written as being in a relationship with a man. Beyond Good and Evil, Mirror's Edge etc.

GrimHeaper:
Not that many women play those types of games and a female lead wouldn't change that.
Granted I want a female leads more often.
I'm tired of male leads they aren't interesting anymore.

Then blame that on the writers, not the fact that the character is male. Many male protagonists are written to be very generic and many characters in different games seem to act the same as one another. It's like they have a checklist on how men in their games should act. If you took that male character and made him female, but kept the same traits, why would it honestly be better? Because he is now a she and has breasts and a vagina?

Redd the Sock:
Funny, I just got a game with a female on the cover today. Granted, Hyperdimension Neptunia isn't exactly a feminist ideal...

Here's a fun little bit of trivia too: The people behind Hyperdimension Neptunia are actually three women. Wish I'd saved the picture showing it...

OT: Yes, women are under-represented in games, and I find it terrible that a company would refuse to have a female protagonist. But to be fair, the market isn't going to change unless there's a HUGE push. Want some change? Gonna have to market and buy the shit out of Remember Me and anything like it.

Blue Ranger:

GrimHeaper:
Not that many women play those types of games and a female lead wouldn't change that.
Granted I want a female leads more often.
I'm tired of male leads they aren't interesting anymore.

Then blame that on the writers, not the fact that the character is male. Many male protagonists are written to be very generic and many characters in different games seem to act the same as one another. It's like they have a checklist on how men in their games should act. If you took that male character and made him female, but kept the same traits, why would it honestly be better? Because he is now a she and has breasts and a vagina?

Because of sexism new things arise. Dragon Age is the best example.
A female will often be ridiculed by men.

hrm, as an Assassin's Creed fan, this makes me want to play a game where desmond has to relive one of his female ancestor assassin's lives...

Tropes vs. Women the short version and I didn't turn off 2 minutes into the episode like I did with that due to the condescending tone I got from it.

As to men objectifying women, it does still happen and there are even forums devoted to men "reviewing" sex workers as if they are a car you take for a test drive or a high end stereo system.

Gaming is a lot more inclusive these days when you think about all those apps for Facebook people send you requests for and games such as the Sims.

Are you sure you really want to make that offer Jim? Someone will take you up for it and then you will be stuck.

GrimHeaper:

Blue Ranger:

GrimHeaper:
Not that many women play those types of games and a female lead wouldn't change that.
Granted I want a female leads more often.
I'm tired of male leads they aren't interesting anymore.

Then blame that on the writers, not the fact that the character is male. Many male protagonists are written to be very generic and many characters in different games seem to act the same as one another. It's like they have a checklist on how men in their games should act. If you took that male character and made him female, but kept the same traits, why would it honestly be better? Because he is now a she and has breasts and a vagina?

Because of sexism new things arise. Dragon Age is the best example.
A female will often be ridiculed by men.

Sometimes females ridcule men and are sexist towards them, like in the Oblivion expansion The Shivering Isles. What's your point? Why do writers only have to tell those kinds of stories for their characters?

Now more than ever do I want Link to be female in the next Zelda game, if only as a stiff middle finger to anyone who says a game with a female protagonist won't sell, and to those people who for some reason would have a problem with it.

Great post, needed to be said.

I'm sad that I can't shake the feeling that if a women had said these exact words, the response from the internet at large would have been aggression and threats.

Thoughts?

Starik20X6:
Now more than ever do I want Link to be female in the next Zelda game, if only as a stiff middle finger to anyone who says a game with a female protagonist won't sell, and to those people who for some reason would have a problem with it.

I really do not see the point of that. A silent protagonist's gender being changed for no real reason as link's character is never explored in games and I don't see that changing. Make one about zelda herself, that would be much more interesting.

Starik20X6:
Now more than ever do I want Link to be female in the next Zelda game, if only as a stiff middle finger to anyone who says a game with a female protagonist won't sell, and to those people who for some reason would have a problem with it.

From all the fanart I've seen, Link would be cute as fuck as a girl. Not really that sexy, but a nice kind of cute...Damn that sounds creepy...but you know what I mean. Plus it would give a nice twist on not only the game, but the entire series.

"But what if Zelda was a girl?"

Have heroines like Ellen Ripley & Sarah Connor been long forgotten? =/

I will be playing as Femshep on my next play through of ME so I can fuck the shit out of Garrus... thats not gay right?

seizon:
hrm, as an Assassin's Creed fan, this makes me want to play a game where desmond has to relive one of his female ancestor assassin's lives...

I never played the games but didn't he have a female Egyptian ancestor? That sounds quite dapper.

Blue Ranger:

GrimHeaper:

Blue Ranger:

Then blame that on the writers, not the fact that the character is male. Many male protagonists are written to be very generic and many characters in different games seem to act the same as one another. It's like they have a checklist on how men in their games should act. If you took that male character and made him female, but kept the same traits, why would it honestly be better? Because he is now a she and has breasts and a vagina?

Because of sexism new things arise. Dragon Age is the best example.
A female will often be ridiculed by men.

Sometimes females ridcule men and are sexist towards them, like in the Oblivion expansion The Shivering Isles. What's your point? Why do writers only have to tell those kinds of stories for their characters?

Because all of the stories are already done?

Bioware. Say what you will about then, but they have a long running tradition of allowing female protagonists who also happen to initiate sexual encounters. From KotOR through Jade Empire through Dragon Age (with homosexual romances tossed in for variety's sake) to Mass Effect, Bioware's female protagonists stand up to the male ones without any problems, with Mass Effect's FemShep being often regarded as the better version than BroShep. Even in cover art, they manned up (so to speak) and put FemShep on the cover of ME3. Sure, it's not a 50/50 split across all their titles, but it's more than most (JE, DA1 and KotOR don't have the protagonist on the cover, DA2, ME1&2 use the male protagonist).

Beyond that, I kinda agree with this episode of Jimquisition, it is kinda sad how the industry (not talking about gamers themselves right now) is scared of casting females. I was saddened when I heard about the Remember Me thing a few days ago. Personally, I rarely create female avatars when given the option to pick (though I did play through most Bioware RPGs with both genders), but I gladly play them if they are predetermined and have no problems with female characters getting it on and being sexually forward.

I do hope this gets the attention it needs and that publishers take a nice big can of internet backlash for the whole "gotta make it a dude" thing so that they stop forcing it so much...

Jim has a point there:

Making female characters overtly attractive, even sexy is not the problem.

Making them exist ONLY for that purpose, however, is.

However, the public discourse often can't tell the difference - even if you have a well-developed female character who engages in physical contact with a lover, you WILL have people going "OMG OBJECTIFICATION OF WOMEN!" no matter how well done the entire thing is.

So yeah, the problem does not solely lie with publishers. Their policies are also (but not exclusively) a defensive mechanism to a degree, and we can only hope that gamers will eventually display the amount of maturity that will allows studios to use great female protagonists more often.

Edit: I was on the "can we finally end this bloody debate?" side of things before this - but this video pretty much turned me around. Enough evidence there to HAVE an opinion. I am a guy, and I actually prefer female protagonists (as in: actual characters) because they are less likely to be a walking cliché like most male protagonists.

GrimHeaper:

Blue Ranger:

GrimHeaper:

Because of sexism new things arise. Dragon Age is the best example.
A female will often be ridiculed by men.

Sometimes females ridcule men and are sexist towards them, like in the Oblivion expansion The Shivering Isles. What's your point? Why do writers only have to tell those kinds of stories for their characters?

Because all of the stories are already done?

Are they incapable of writing their own?

Dark Knifer:

Starik20X6:
Now more than ever do I want Link to be female in the next Zelda game, if only as a stiff middle finger to anyone who says a game with a female protagonist won't sell, and to those people who for some reason would have a problem with it.

I really do not see the point of that. A silent protagonist's gender being changed for no real reason as link's character is never explored in games and I don't see that changing. Make one about zelda herself, that would be much more interesting.

I see what you mean, but it's also one of the reasons I think it would be great if Link was a girl- it wouldn't matter, at all. As you said, Link's personality is never really explored in-depth, and he's a legacy character anyway, so there's no established personality to "ruin" by changing him. The fundamental mechanics of the game wouldn't adjust either, so as far as I can see, there's zero reason to be annoyed by it, other than if you're insecure about playing as a female.

Baresark:

I'm gonna try this one more time. Having a preference isn't the same as bigotry. You make choices every single day that mean you prefer one thing over another. If I want grapefruit juice with breakfast, that doesn't mean I hate or have something against oranges. There work explains that people make choices and have preferences that do not always follow a set of concise rules. It shows us that if people have every single reason in the world to make the same choices from day to day, they will not make the same choices from day to day.

I revere their work. You are reducing simple preferences to earth shattering bigotry, racism and sexism. I'm not allowed to prefer to play a game as a certain protagonist why exactly? In one playthrough of Dark Souls I play someone who is like me, large and physically powerful. Likewise, sometimes I have an inkling to play as a female character I modeled after my girlfriend (small, athletic, quick on her feet). Both of these things are wrong to you? Afterall, I'm making a choice based on a preference, which by your definition seems to be a result of bigotry to the opposite character.

Irrationality isn't "indulged". It's who people are. You act as if people are making a choice to be that way. They aren't. The opposite is true actually. In a given situation, people ALWAYS think they are being rational, even when they are not being rational.

It doesn't matter if I don't like oranges (and I really don't like them) because no one is depriving others of oranges on the basis that I don't like them.

And oranges aren't depictions or people. Fruit is not protected as an art form of expression.

if people have every single reason in the world to make the same choices from day to day, they will not make the same choices from day to day.

Yeah... they change their minds. That's what choice is. This isn't profound, this is blatantly obvious.

I'm not allowed to prefer to play a game as a certain protagonist why exactly?

You reject certain games purely on grounds of race and sex? Yeah that's racism and/or sexism.

And even if that isn't racism/sexism, it most certainly is when organisations deliberately exclude by race and sex to cater to that prejudice, and it's certainly bigoted to support that practice.

Egotistical attitudes to consumption of the arts is not something to be so encouraged. I don't think you see how this damages games as an art form, if they really are just playing by "Majority Rules" along lines of race and gender.

I don't care if they are choices or compulsions, they can get worse with pandering. What started as a mild prejudice is reinforced by familiarity, over and over again, white-male as the protagonist, no exceptions. Why can't we have a lead role with a black guy with a gun or a woman with a gun. I don't think they are ideological sexists, the high frequency of black and/or female companions sees they want to have the window dressing of inclusion... but nothing that contradicts their white-male ego.

Blue Ranger:

GrimHeaper:

Blue Ranger:

Sometimes females ridcule men and are sexist towards them, like in the Oblivion expansion The Shivering Isles. What's your point? Why do writers only have to tell those kinds of stories for their characters?

Because all of the stories are already done?

Are they incapable of writing their own?

Pretty much.
Most game stories are rehashes or borrowed from other popular things.
Writing on a level beyond the most basic takes effort.
Not an excuse for them, but that is how it is. How I wish it weren't.

Fiairflair:

The definition of objectification is more complicated than the explanation you gave.

objectification, n.

1. The action or an act of objectifying something; a material thing which embodies or expresses an abstract idea, principle, etc.

2. spec. The demotion or degrading of a person or class of people (esp. women) to the status of a mere object (see objectify v. 2); reification; (also) behaviour or an attitude characterized by this. sexual objectification: the regarding of a person or class of people (esp. women) only as a sex object.

objectify, v.

1. trans. To express (something abstract) in a concrete form; to render objective.

2. trans. To degrade or demote (a person, class of people, etc.) to the status of a mere object; to treat as an object; to reify. Also: to identify (a person) with a particular stereotype; to stereotype.

- Oxford University Press, accessed 26 March 2013. http://www.oed.com.ezproxy/view/Entry/129625?redirectedFrom=objectify#eid and http://www.oed.com.ezproxy/view/Entry/129623?redirectedFrom=objectification#eid

The objectification referred to by Jim and by others is the latter of those definitions (#2 in each instance). Not Jim nor Legion were at fault in referring to objectification as "a lack of agency or control."

Yes but it can't possibly be the "To degrade or demote a person to the status of a mere object" in games where for one they literally ARE objects in the game world, they literally are polygon models. Everything the game designer does turns them from objects into characters, it's not like you are starting with human actors or models and turning them into objects by contrived treatment. If you try to be too ambitious giving them AI controlled agency you risk turning them back into objects when the AI breaks and you can so clearly see it's a wind-up-mechanoid, running around mindlessly in circles... only playing voice recordings of real people.

So I think Jim is taking kind of a cheap shot at the AI comrade in Last of Us, it's not going to behave exactly like a fully fleshed out person... because really, it isn't.

Again, this term is inherently problematic for how it was coined in criticism of media like Film and print ads, it is subverted to the point of losing all significance in games as an art form from how integral the player's agency is in the story acting through the player-character, as an essential design element. It doesn't take account of subjectivity, the importance of player input in the narrative mode.

The "remote control toy" model for player-character in games was outdated when it was introduced and it's always been known to be without basis. People don't say "ahh, my character model died/got-hit/fell-off" they almost always say "aaah, I died/got-hit/fell-off". The term "avatar" for such characters is deliberate, drawing from the concept from Hinduism as a kind of "incarnation" of the player, how they transcend worlds from the real world to the virtual.

There are some games where the players are so detached it's like the "remote control toy" model but that's considered a failure of immersion in design.

The only form of "Sexual objectification" that is relevant is in the sense of how a game might have female characters who can only be defined by their how they are the objects of perspective in sexual terms, because of their sex.

446 posts later that I'm not going to read, nor respond to further posts or posts that may quote mine....*sigh*....here we go:

There are ways to which write good female protagonists. There are examples that exist prior to all of the hulabalu that has gone on recently. Find those examples, examine them and then realize...

IT'S THE SAME GODDAMNED WAY YOU WRITE A MALE ONE!!!

Seriously, Terra and Celes from Final Fantasy 6, Sue, Feena and Leen from Grandia, Cecilia from Wild ARMs, Samus from Metroid Fusion, Jade from Beyond Good and Evil...there are probably more than I can think of right now, but holy Jesus H. Fucknuggets Christ, guys and gals...

Women are human, too. It's not THAT hard to understand. Although, I was once told that women were more complex than men because of the chromosonal makeup: women have XXXX, where men have XXXY and therefore are 25% more complex than men (or something to that effect).

I'll be damned if people associated with games, both from within and without, aren't proving that point more and more as the seconds pass...

seriously. what is the big problem playing a female?? nothing. its simply idiotic to think like this. i love playing a female character more then playing a male character. if i have the chance to play as a female, she comes first. same as in ME games. i made a femshep and later on more. and if some are really disgusted to see the female protagonist kissing a man, then there is really something wrong with them.

i really hope that companies ignore this stupidity and carry on using the female protagonist as planed.

Starik20X6:
Snip

That's true. This would also imply a possibility of a male zelda as well though by the sounds of it. Or even a female ganon I suppose. I get what you mean but since it doesn't really change anything I don't really mind one way or the other. I would just prefer it if it did change things so we have a new dynamic to explore, which we could with zelda as the main character but a gender swapped link doesn't bring anything to the table unless they change other things about the franchise. Which would be interesting.

CommieCatGirl:
Male gamers want cool male protagonists in their escapist fantasies, who knew? I guess the only solution is to call dude bros insecure closeted homosexuals in order to feel like a big man!

Don't blame culture, blame biology and economics. You have to accept that most males, especially males that play shooty games, are going to want to play as strong males and want their games to have an air of machismo to them. Most males are just programmed to be that way, if you make them a single struggling single mother in their action game looking for love while simultaneously filling the role of the strong male action hero, then you're just going to be ruining their entertainment for the sake of your own agenda.

If you want to make a change, try starting a movement actively boycotting "dudebro" shooters and game publishers who hinder developers from making games with strong female characters with genuine feminine traits. They'll start caring more about the damage to sales more than they ever will the condemnations of some overweight gamma male on the internet.

Actually, they don't. Study of WoW players at least 53% of men actively chose a female character (distinct from ME series where it heavily encourages to chose a male Shepard) how much larger would that percentage be with accepting of female heroes. Suddenly the percentage that are Male and "will only play as same gender, no matter how good the game" is pretty small.

It doesn't matter who likes to play shooty games, shooty games don't require male lead. The whole point of a gun is that it isn't about brute strength, it's about accuracy and agility. For head to head mano-a-mano (that literally means hand to hand) fights then the masculine traits of raw strength and size matter. But FPS games are all about gunning down enemies who are bigger and stronger. Heavy is the single worst class in Team Fortress 2, to spite having almost 3x the health and the highest DPS they are almost absent from competitive matches except for on certain points needing a slow strong push and even then they absolutely need a healer class.

if you make them a single struggling single mother in their action game

That's obviously a false dichotomy, "heads I win, tails you lose". Choose the male hero who is suited to the role vs a women with no suited attributes. But those suited attributes are not inherent to men or women.

Women of course make good action roles. This didn't used to be a problem, in the supposed "bad old days" of the 90's women were everywhere in action games, every race in Unreal series had a female alternate and they were often used. Capcom released 6 Resident Evil games before Resident Evil 4 (lol, they can't count) of those 6, four had women as the prime protagonist, the other 2 men were an alternate option.

Resident Evil 4 came along and the primary protagonist was Leon Kennedy, no problem, this is his turn, the next turn will probably be Jill or Claire's turn... nope. Round about this time women just disappeared from leading roles.

Biology isn't the problem, it wasn't the problem back in the good-old-days and biology hasn't changed in 15 years. It's down to the rise of disingenuous cynicism on the internet attacking female representation in games and have this warped expectation of women's depiction that is a blatant double standard.

There is no actual inherent problem with male players playing the role of a woman in violent action games

To hell with the need for feminine traits in shooters. Murdering people with guns isn't a "masculine trait" while we are on it, or if it is, it's not a positive one to be encouraged as relevant to real life. There is no reason a female action hero would have to have to espouse "feminine traits".

The essential traits of an action hero simply are not at all exclusive to male characters.

IamLEAM1983, Ukomba, and everybody else with the Jennifer Hale/FemShep love. Yes she totally rocks. I tried explaining to my friends that it is a way better experience to play Mass Effect as a female, but they just got real quiet and moved to the other end of the couch...

Novan Leon:
I feel like all these people vehemently decrying rampant sexism in videogames are just now waking up to realize that the industry is largely marketed towards the uninhibited, teen-to-college age male. It's like complaining that Playboy, Maxim or the latest spring break movie are sexist.

That argument is a bit narrow-minded my friend, you're not exactly wrong, but Playboy, Maxim and spring break movies would be UNIVERSALLY geared toward those looking for T & A and cheap sexist humour. By comparison there may be a majority of gamers looking to be Master Chief with the badass guns or racing dude number 1789 with the fastest car or football guy number 15,678 with the biggest balls but that's not the same thing, markets expand, kids who play barbie horse adventures and dora the explorer grow up and want something deeper without having to join the dudebros. I personally want people who aren't typical gamers to be able to enjoy games as much as I do, I think we should all do what we can to let them in. Even if its just the token "I'm a 15-30 year old male but I think it would ok" blurb at least we're supporting new ideas and not raging and spitting and acting like only our opinions matter and we want it to stay that way.

Not that I'm ranting at people for having normal, perfectly reasonable opinions regarding who they play as, but I don't think its too much to ask for publishers/developers to take the first step to at least make an effort on this front. I know they take a risk with every game they make, and they should offer their audience what they want, but gamers never know what new thing is gonna be awesome until somebody grows a pair and MAKES IT. At the very least it would go a long way towards the image of gamers and game-makers if they would stop making the same mistakes they always do when they portray women in their games.

I can see how it might affect your immersion and enjoyment of a game to make you as a guy sit through a semi-sex scene between your character and another guy, I would partly agree, I would feel very awkward if it went beyond a little romantic kissing(meh if its for the sake of good story-telling I'll get over it). But I found it WAY more offensive when infinity ward put in a level where you gun down unarmed civilians. How in the hell is that ok but a little pcgirl/npcguy love is not? That I find really disturbing. (Yes you can skip that level I know)

If being a mass-murderer in damn near any shooter doesn't bother you then you will probably get used to the idea of identifying with a realistic female character.

Holythirteen:
IamLEAM1983, Ukomba, and everybody else with the Jennifer Hale/FemShep love. Yes she totally rocks. I tried explaining to my friends that it is a way better experience to play Mass Effect as a female, but they just got real quiet and moved to the other end of the couch...

No, it's not a better experience. Female Shepard goes through the same story male Shepard goes through. It seems to me people act like femshep is better simply because they have some fixation with Jennifer Hale. She's a good voice actress, but sorry, I don't find her better than male Shepard's voice. I enjoyed playing as male Shepard. Give this "female shepard is sooooo much better" nonsense a rest, please.

Hey, wait. Where's DeFoe?

The player doesn't kiss the dude, the character does.

Moonlight Butterfly:

No I think I understood them pretty well

'Girls can't say anything because the majority of the don't play REAL games'

Spectacularly wrong.

Someone pranced out the old "females make up 43% of the gamer market" statistic. Others pointed out that that statistic included games like solitaire, Farmville and other casual games like that whose audience would not be (and should not be) considered in this discussion regardless of the player's gender.

How you got "women are not allowed to have a say" from that is beyond me.

Jandau:
Bioware. Say what you will about then, but they have a long running tradition of allowing female protagonists who also happen to initiate sexual encounters. From KotOR through Jade Empire through Dragon Age (with homosexual romances tossed in for variety's sake) to Mass Effect, Bioware's female protagonists stand up to the male ones without any problems, with Mass Effect's FemShep being often regarded as the better version than BroShep. Even in cover art, they manned up (so to speak) and put FemShep on the cover of ME3. Sure, it's not a 50/50 split across all their titles, but it's more than most (JE, DA1 and KotOR don't have the protagonist on the cover, DA2, ME1&2 use the male protagonist).

False.

Jade Empire had both male and female default protaganists on the cover.

PunkRex:
I will be playing as Femshep on my next play through of ME so I can fuck the shit out of Garrus... thats not gay right?

Nope. I did a FemShep Thanemancer playthrough, didn't feel creeped out at all. Still haven't gotten around to importing that one to ME3... but I'll get to it, fear not.

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