Host Haste

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ccdohl:

Evilpigeon:

Popularity and quality are not linked. The film/ book/ game with the widest appeal is simply the one that's most innoffensive.

I disagree. If people enjoy something, and enjoy it immensely, as they do Twilight, on a large scale, then it is quality.
Maybe it is not sound by certain literary standards, but it's not low quality to the people who love it.

I'm saying that, at the very least, the burden of proof is on those who claim that it is low quality to overcome the masses of people who love it.

In addition, I'm not sure that you can say that Twilight is meaningless or pointless. It certainly has its messages, and they certainly resonate with some people.

Edit: In addition, how can the most inoffensive bit of media have so much hate from almost every direction?

Yeah, no.

Your argument is simply a reworking of argumentum ad populum.

ccdohl:

Evilpigeon:

Popularity and quality are not linked. The film/ book/ game with the widest appeal is simply the one that's most innoffensive.

I disagree. If people enjoy something, and enjoy it immensely, as they do Twilight, on a large scale, then it is quality.
Maybe it is not sound by certain literary standards, but it's not low quality to the people who love it.

I'm saying that, at the very least, the burden of proof is on those who claim that it is low quality to overcome the masses of people who love it.

In addition, I'm not sure that you can say that Twilight is meaningless or pointless. It certainly has its messages, and they certainly resonate with some people.

Edit: In addition, how can the most inoffensive bit of media have so much hate from almost every direction?

Okay, let's ignore that; "It's popular, therefore it's good" is the very definition of a logically fallacious argument.

It has already been demonstrated, in thousands upon thousands of words, literally everywhere that Twilight is crap.

Kaulen Fuhs:

Yeah, no.

Your argument is simply a reworking of argumentum ad populum.

bringer of illumination:

Okay, let's ignore that; "It's popular, therefore it's good" is the very definition of a logically fallacious argument.

It has already been demonstrated, in thousands upon thousands of words, literally everywhere that Twilight is crap.

It's very clever that both of you can look up logical fallacies on the internet, or that you are taking a logic class. Perhaps you should wait until you get a passing grade at the end of the semester to put it to use.

We are not dealing with a deductive argument here. There is no syllogism that deals with the quality of the book, and no valid and sound arguments to prove the conclusion, the enjoyment of a piece of literature being a subjective quality and all.

Instead, we are dealing with a more grey area, in which people criticize works of fiction for being of lesser quality, despite the fact that the fiction accomplishes its goal, to entertain people, and does so in a wildly successful way. There may be schools of thought on literature, the tenets of which are violated by the books, and there may be people who dislike the books, but that's all.

My point is simply that the starting assumptions about Twilight should be reconsidered. It may be something of a critique of criticism, which is already a pretty big topic. Everything written about these books says that they are poorly written, which may be true by those schools of thought, but it seems to me that it reveals a flaw with the thought on literature more so than it says anything about the books themselves, considering that they are so widely read and enjoyed.

Again, stick with that logic stuff, maybe one day you guys will actually understand how it works.

Here is my take on this.

Meyer's problem is that she is obsessed with one thing to the exclusion of all else, in this case romance. Then she writes genres where, as far as I know, you CAN'T have such an extremely limited focus and make it work.

Looked at from an objective point of view I would love for anyone to prove that Meyer put ANY thought into her fantastic elements beyond just having them exist.

I believe that if you are going to have fantastic/sci-fi elements in your story you need to have Effects and Backstory.

Now let's look at Meyer's body of work:

Fantastic element:
Twilight- Vampires and werewolves that,as per the author, are superior to humanity in every way. According to Meyer's own words humans really are cattle to these creatures.
The Host- Aliens have conquered Earth. These aliens are also more cultured and peaceful than humans.

Effects:
Twilight- None really. Humanity is not enslaved nor do we see Aro calling world leaders telling them to do what he says or else. Everything is related to the romance plot even if it makes no sense for the issue in question to be about the romance.
The Host- There is a resistance but they seem more concerned about relationships than retaking the planet. It also seems as thought the aliens are content to just ape a somewhat idealized version of humans.

Backstory:
Twilight- None. Vampires just exist and have left very little impact on world history.
The Host- None. Humans lost somehow even thought the aliens only seem to use slightly advanced human tech.

I hope that explains my argument.

[quote="ccdohl" post="6.404549.16789585]SNIP[/quote]

You must've missed the "reworking" bit. It's okay. Reading is difficult, and it's a big word, so no hard feelings.

Kaulen Fuhs:
[quote="ccdohl" post="6.404549.16789585]SNIP[/quote]

You must've missed the "reworking" bit. It's okay. Reading is difficult, and it's a big word, so no hard feelings.

I am not sure how one reworks a logical fallacy, especially when we're not talking about a deductive argument.

I am, however, sure that you should learn to use the quote function properly before you try to insult another poster's intellect.

ccdohl:

Kaulen Fuhs:
[quote="ccdohl" post="6.404549.16789585]SNIP[/quote]

You must've missed the "reworking" bit. It's okay. Reading is difficult, and it's a big word, so no hard feelings.

I am not sure how one reworks a logical fallacy, especially when we're not talking about a deductive argument.

I am, however, sure that you should learn to use the quote function properly before you try to insult another poster's intellect.

Forgive my mistake, and I shall forgive you yours.

One reworks a logical fallacy this way, "What is popular is true, what is popular is good". If you have an argument to make for the quality of Twilight, make it. "Lots of people like it!" is, at this point, more a condemnation of man than a recommendation by them.

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