On Dongles

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matthew_lane:
They would have spolen to anyone willing to listen.

Ok, you really can't see why it's considered offensive.

matthew_lane:

It wasn't sponsored by an industry, it was sponsored by "A" company: I hate to tell you this, but all raves are sponsored by a company (usually its sponsored by the clubs management, but sometimes its sponsored by a particular company).

Organised by YetiZen, approved by IGDA. Also known as Industry Sponsored.

edit: It would seem there's confusion around my usage of "Industry Sponsored" by which I don't mean sponsored by the entire industry, merely An event regarding the industry sponsored by those within the industry.

matthew_lane:

The group that was being targetted is people who like terrible dubstep music & seizure inducing flashing lights. This is the main draw of a rave.

And attractive woman wearing skimpy clothing, paid to talk to you. In the case of this rave.

matthew_lane:

You know what they say; "beware those truths said in jest."

I don't know what they say, and I've never actually heard any one say that other than Marshall Mathers

matthew_lane:

Dude, no one gives a shit about them being eye candy.

Except the people that were offended enough to notify Brenda Romero, and Brenda Romero who felt she couldn't work for an organisation that would approve such an event.

matthew_lane:

Personally i find it to be pandering & silly.

Then why are you so against its removal to appeal to a wider demographic?

matthew_lane:

But you know what, when people come along screaming sexism about something thats not sexism & making hyperbolic bullshit statements where they have to lie by ommission to try to make a point, that pissess me off even more.

I've never claimed sexism, made no Hyperbole, ommited only what people should have already researched prior to arguing. Who are you talking about?

matthew_lane:

When you take those lies of ommission & then try to smear an entire industry,

Who's smearing? What? Am I missing parts of this conversation?

matthew_lane:

so you can feel better about the arse backwards generalisations you already hold, as you try to justify them against demonstrable fact, that torques me up from generally pissed off, to down right ornery.

What generalisations do I hold?

matthew_lane:

Your views are demonstrably wrong: Which is why you continue to feel the need to misrepresent demonstrable fact.

Please enlighten me as to your demonstrable "fact"

wulf3n:

We're going round in circles.

Oh I don't think so. I asked you a number of questions and I think you have made your position reasonably clear.

As far as I can ascertain from your answers you do not believe that there should be organised after parties which exist for the purposes of fun. You simply feel that this is the way it should be, as a matter of personal preference and have not presented a rational why companies who participate in these events should cease arranging them.

given that I have suggested a good reason why companies may want their events to be fun, in terms of success of both attendance and positive word of mouth, they appear to have some rational to retain the current arrangements.

You have suggested you think that raves are somehow by their nature exclusitory, yet haven't presented a reason why a rave is any less exclusitory than any other kind of event.

wulf3n:

And attractive woman wearing skimpy clothing, paid to talk to you. In the case of this rave.

I think you mean paid to dance, if they were dancers hired for the stage. I doubt they were paid to talk at the rave, on the basis that nobody can hear what anyone is saying at a rave.

Why did you exclude this point in your discussion with me, you didn't raise this as a problem when I asked you what you objected to, instead you made what I consider to be confusing arguments against people having fun.

wulf3n:

You'll find responses to your questions in my previous posts. :P

I only asked you one question in my last post and that was rhetorical. So I am not sure what you questions you are referring to.

We may have to ultimately agree to disagree, however I believe this presents a larger problem for you than it does for me. The reason being that my position is the status quo, that after parties for entertainment are fine. Your position requires that companies change their behaviour yet without a compelling rational for them to do so they will default to the status quo.

(edit some addition and clarifications offered, which syncronised after your reply, also windows did a forced shut down on me while I was writing.)

xorinite:
...stuff...

I really don't have a problem with "after parties" in general, but feel there more useful as networking as opposed to merely fun.

I've never said you can't have fun, or that fun should be banned.

Nor have I ever said they shouldn't do "after-parties" merely that if purely "fun" parties are the only reason you're attending a conference you probably shouldn't be there.

And it's not about the "rave" it's about the hiring of female models used solely for pandering.

xorinite:

I think you mean paid to dance, if they were dancers hired for the stage. I doubt they were paid to talk at the rave, on the basis that nobody can hear what anyone is saying at a rave.

According to YetiZen they were only hired to mingle, the danced on stage because the "rappers" asked them to. Also the "rave" was more the Wargamers event held the next day.

xorinite:

Why did you exclude this point in your discussion with me, you didn't raise this as a problem when I asked you what you objected to, instead you made what I consider to be confusing arguments against people having fun.

I'm fighting battles on several fronts here, so it's hard to keep track of what I say to who.

wulf3n:
Ok, you really can't see why it's considered offensive.

Its not offensive: You are offended by it. Those two things are not the same thing. I'm offended by the jersey shore. That doesn't make it offensive.

wulf3n:
Organised by YetiZen, approved by IGDA. Also known as Industry Sponsored.

/double facepalm. Neither YetiZen nor IGDA are an industry, they are both companies... They don't even make up a major minority of the industry.

wulf3n:
edit: It would seem there's confusion around "Industry Sponsored" by which I don't mean sponsored by the entire industry, merely An event regarding the industry sponsored by those within the industry.

The only people confused about what you are saying is you... This is exactly the same thing we haed two days ago where suddenly strippers had been hired for the event... An by strippers we apparently mean, people who were not taking there clothes off for money. Because in soviet russia hamburger eat you.

wulf3n:
And attractive woman wearing skimpy clothing, paid to talk to you. In the case of this rave.

Right next to the attractive women wearing skimpy clothing not paid to talk to you: Thats not exclusionary. After all you aren't there to fuck the help mate. Why does it matter that the help in question is female?

wulf3n:
Except the people that were offended enough to notify Brenda Romero, and Brenda Romero who felt she couldn't work for an organisation that would approve such an event.

Because hyperbolic nonsense does not become less hyperbolic or less nonsesical when Brenda Romero (who ever the hell that is) says it.

wulf3n:
Then why are you so against its removal to appeal to a wider demographic?

For the same reason i don't ban chewing gum, so the titanic didn't sink. Its only & people like you who think that one will lead to the other. Whats next? Oh lets get rid of the loud noise, the music, the flashing lights & lets hold this event at a coffee shop & lets have it be a discourse on the production of belgian chocolate... Because that will appeal to more people: No it won't.

Thats not how this works mate: The point of fun is fun. If you don't find a rave fun (as i do not) then don't go. Don't expect the event to change to your personal preference. This is what i meant before when i said; "Beware truths said in jest."

wulf3n:
I've never claimed sexism, made no Hyperbole, ommited only what people should have already researched prior to arguing. Who are you talking about?

I"m talking about you specifically. Lets take the following statement of yours.

wulf3n:
Because it's a video game developers conference, what does party music and strippers have to do with that?

If the audience wanted to go to a strip club/night club, fine, go to a club, but keep the video game developers conference as a conference of video game developers conferring about video game development.

You've essentially made the statement that strippers should not be allowed at a conference. An even when people have pointed out that there were no strippers & it wasn't held at a conference, you keep on coming back to that point. This is both hyperbolic & a lie of ommission. You even go so far as to say "If the audience wanted to go to a strip club/night club, fine, go to a club" & yet when people point out to you that thats exactly what they've done, you find a new tact to be offended by.

You are the epitome of the white knight: You WANT to be offended. You NEED to be offended. Because if you aren't morally outraged for the women, you'd have no other reason to be on the escapist.

wulf3n:
Who's smearing? What? Am I missing parts of this conversation?

You are. Everytime you call the rave "industry sponsored" you are making a statement about "THE INDUSTRY".

matthew_lane:
...stuff...

I had this really long retort that got "lost" by the internet so I'll give a brief recap as I really can't be bothered constantly repeating myself to those who don't want to listen. Here we go:

HAHAHAHHAHAHHAHAHHHAHHAHHAA...
Strawman, Strawman, Disingenuous assertion, Another Strawman...
HAHAHHAHAHHAHHAHHAHAHAHA...
REALLY?...
HAHHAHAHAHAHHAHHAHA.

not necessarily in any particular order.

However one statement sums up everything.

matthew_lane:

Brenda Romero (who ever the hell that is)

You don't know the person who brought up the entire Issue for which we've been arguing for the past 2 pages! Well that's been an incredible waste of time, I've been arguing with someone who doesn't even know the fundamentals of the issue.

I would be pretty ornery if it weren't such a laugh.

wulf3n:
You don't know the person who brought up the entire Issue for which we've been arguing for the past 2 pages!

I'm aware of there part in the narrative, i just have no clue who they are outside of the narrative.

matthew_lane:

wulf3n:
You don't know the person who brought up the entire Issue for which we've been arguing for the past 2 pages!

I'm aware of there part in the narrative, i just have no clue who they are outside of the narrative.

You claim I'm facetious and that I lie by omission but you don't even bother to find out the facts.

Brenda Romero was a game developer and up till recently was the co-chair of the IGDA's Women in Games special-interest group. So it's literally her job to be a feminazi and get offended by pretty much everything, so her opinions/actions really mean fuck-all in this.

wulf3n:

According to YetiZen they were only hired to mingle, the danced on stage because the "rappers" asked them to. Also the "rave" was more the Wargamers event held the next day.

If I were an event organiser who had to arrange a night clubbing for what must be a very large group of mostly males. Then one of my primary concerns would be in bringing the number of males to females in the club back to, or at least closer to parity.

I've looked at this during some of my education as well as having seen it 'in the wild' as it were. In general clubs tend to do this through drinks promotions, free door entry, even free mini bus services arranged to increase the amount of females in clubs.

YetiZen apparently went the route of simply paying women to attend. I guess thats.. uh.. straitforward.
I'm not sure how I feel about that. In some ways its a logical extention of the typical incentive system used by nightclubs. On the other hand when you change the incentive to an overt payment it has a very different social context to it.

As you said, its more like being paid to talk to someone, rather than simply being incentived to attend an event.

wulf3n:

I'm fighting battles on several fronts here, so it's hard to keep track of what I say to who.

Fair enough it happens to all of us. Its just a bit frustrating when it looks like we have been spinning our wheels talking about things which aren't even relevant.

xorinite:
I've looked at this during some of my education as well as having seen it 'in the wild' as it were. In general clubs tend to do this through drinks promotions, free door entry, even free mini bus services arranged to increase the amount of females in clubs.

I understand it for normal clubs, but not for after parties.

Sure the parties are supposed to be fun, but this implies that for it to be fun you need to have attractive woman to talk to.

You claim I'm facetious and that I lie by omission but you don't even bother to find out the facts.[/quote]

I didn't bother to find out who they were outside of the narrative, because it wasn't important to the actual events. Either the stance they put forward would have been right or wrong on its own merits. But since they didn't put forward a real stance outside of "oh we take offense, so we are pulling our support" it wasn't really important to the story.

Because appeal to false authority really has no place in civil discourse.

Aaron Sylvester:
Brenda Romero was a game developer and up till recently was the co-chair of the IGDA's Women in Games special-interest group. So it's literally her job to be a feminazi and get offended by pretty much everything, so her opinions/actions really mean fuck-all in this.

Thanks mate, didn't know who she was meant to be outside of the narrative.

xorinite:
YetiZen apparently went the route of simply paying women to attend. I guess thats.. uh.. straitforward.

I'm not sure how I feel about that. In some ways its a logical extention of the typical incentive system used by nightclubs. On the other hand when you change the incentive to an overt payment it has a very different social context to it.

As you said, its more like being paid to talk to someone, rather than simply being incentived to attend an event.

Except that they weren't there to make up some kind of gender difference: They were there as spokes models. They were there to pimp out a specific product or service.

This is not something new, or unique: Clubs do this all the time, when a company hires the space, does the promotion & then hires spokes models (male & female depending on the expected demographic) to pimp out a product or service: Its part of the promotion.

I'm not sure what your background is, but this is pretty workaday stuff guys.

matthew_lane:

Because appeal to false authority really has no place in civil discourse.

Oh, so now I appealed to false authority?

You said

matthew_lane:

Dude, no one gives a shit about them being eye candy.

I pointed out those who did give a shit about the "eye candy"

wulf3n:

Except the people that were offended enough to notify Brenda Romero, and Brenda Romero who felt she couldn't work for an organisation that would approve such an event.

Where was the appeal, and who was the Authority?

matthew_lane:
Except that they weren't there to make up some kind of gender difference: They were there as spokes models. They were there to pimp out a specific product or service.

Source? what were they trying to sell? You can't just make stuff up.

SacremPyrobolum:

AC10:

erttheking:
You know, as an American I might get called a prude for this, but there's a time and a place for stuff like this. This wasn't one of them.

Having dated a German, they really like to talk it up about how sexually expressive and free Europe and the like is. I'd say it is true, but not nearly to the extent they seem to have in their heads. I'd like someone to tell me how "Turn me on, Dammit! (origina: Få meg på, for faen)" is so much more free in its sex than something like American Pie. Arguably American Pie treats it's sexuality with "humor" (not that I found it that funny), but at least it was a better movie in my opinion.

In fact, visiting Germany I was expecting whores to be pouring out of brothels and naked men and women to be banging on giant posters in the streets, but none of this was the case. In fact, I'd say most people were dressed more conservatively than the average high school student at amall here. Which is good, as they seemed to actually have a sense of style :P

You have to visit Munich. Here we have old men riding naked on a three seater bicycle in the park.

OT: This is either about the inudstry meeting with the "strippers" or is about the chauvinism in the industry as a whole. I doubt it was abotu the "Dongle" incident but I can see why they chose it.

As for that little incident I think that women was way out of line with reporting it. She got a guy fired because he was telling a in no way misogynist but sexually charge joke to his friend and coworker beside him.

I DID visit Munich, I didn't see anything like that :(. Oh well lol, guess I had to be there on the weekend :P. Maybe next time I'll see something like that!

For the record, random full body nudity is certainly more sexually free than here in Canada (do keep in mind it's below 10 here like 8 months of the year). Though at least it's legal for women to go topless. Though you're not allowed to be nude fully in public, we do have nude beaches. Why you would want to be nude on our beaches is beyond me (our sand is coarse and grainy in Ontario), but people do it.

I'd love for us to open up more over here. I think a lot of the youth are far more open sexually so hopefully that signifies a change of tings to come. Personally, I've been a long time 4channer and have seen enough things in hentai that nothing really phases me anymore. I think when you've reached a point in life where you can shrug off shittingdicknipples with a "meh" that says something. What, I don't know... but something :P

AC10:
Personally, I've been a long time 4channer and have seen enough things in hentai that nothing really phases me anymore. I think when you've reached a point in life where you can shrug off shittingdicknipples with a "meh" that says something. What, I don't know... but something :P

image

i do concur with your post, i'd rather have things more out there and discussed rather than have it be "thou shallt not speak of it, maybe if we don't speak of it they won't know it exists!" mentality of sexualism and whatnot. (speaking for US here, obviously you are canadian)

That last panel is one I never thought I'd see.

LazyAza:
I think Cory just wanted an excuse to draw lady butts. haha XD

It's a gaming site! What more excuse does he need?

wulf3n:
Oh, so now I appealed to false authority?

Dude, take a second, step away from your computer, take a couple of dep breaths. Now before coming back to your computer take off your white knight armour & try reading what people are actually writing.

No one said you made an appeal to motive, in exactly the same way that no one called you facetious as you announced above.

wulf3n:
You claim I'm facetious

Go back & reread the statement as its written, not as you think its written.

matthew_lane:

wulf3n:
Oh, so now I appealed to false authority?

Dude, take a second, step away from your computer, take a couple of dep breaths. Now before coming back to your computer take off your white knight armour & try reading what people are actually writing.

No one said you made an appeal to motive, in exactly the same way that no one called you facetious as you announced above.

wulf3n:
You claim I'm facetious

Go back & reread the statement as its written, not as you think its written.

\

I'll just leave these here shall I.

matthew_lane:

But you know what, when people come along screaming sexism about something thats not sexism & making hyperbolic bullshit statements where they have to lie by ommission to try to make a point, that pissess me off even more.

matthew_lane:

I"m talking about you specifically.

wulf3n:
I'll just leave these here shall I.

matthew_lane:

But you know what, when people come along screaming sexism about something thats not sexism & making hyperbolic bullshit statements where they have to lie by ommission to try to make a point, that pissess me off even more.

matthew_lane:

I"m talking about you specifically.

Right & in either one of those staments where do i call you facetious, or state that you've made an appeal to motive?

Mate, you really need to log off & go do something else for a little while, because your ego is way to over invested in this discussion. You are wrong, an no amount of weaselly rhetorics is going to make you less wrong. But for every disingenious attempt you make, you lower yourself & when people point out your actions, your ego takes another hit & you have to lower yourself even further to try to defend the new silly statements you've made.

For your own sake i suggest you log off, step away from the computer & go do something else for a while... For the sake of your own state of mind.

matthew_lane:

Right & in either one of those staments where do i call you facetious, or state that you've made an appeal to motive?

So facetious wasn't the best word to choose, you certainly accused me of enough, that I should be forgiven for adding one of my own.

matthew_lane:

Mate, you really need to log off & go do something else for a little while, because your ego is way to over invested in this discussion. You are wrong,

AHAHAAHAHAHAHHAHAHA, the irony is delicious.

matthew_lane:

an no amount of weaselly rhetorics is going to make you less wrong.

Oh, so now I use weaselly rhetorics to. Anything else you want to make up?

matthew_lane:

But for every disingenious attempt you make,

Ah, there we go.

matthew_lane:

you lower yourself & when people point out your actions, our ego takes another hit & you have to lower yourself even further to try to defend the new silly statements you've made.

Our ego? that's weird. New silly statements? I've only made One silly statement.

matthew_lane:

For your own sake i suggest you log off, step away from the computer & go do something else for a while... For the sake of your own state of mind.

It's not my state of mind you should be concerned about.

wulf3n:
Oh, so now I use weaselly rhetorics to. Anything else you want to make up?

Mate you just tried to claim victim status for something no ones said & then to prove it was said you cherry picked statements in which that thing was still not said. You've also been caught out trying to give new definitions to words & making false equivications. Those are all weasly tactics, refered to as logical fallacies. If you don't want people to point out you are using them, then my suggestion would be to stop using them.

You've obviously become over invested in this coversation, to the point where you would argue that the earth is flat & the centre of the solar system, if you thought it would win you your main point.

Again i suggest you take some time to log off, maybe go outside for a couple of minutes, go make a sandwhich, take a couple of deep breathes & relax before coming back to this discussion.

In the mean time, i think i'll go for a walk. Its a nice day outside today, maybe a smidge warm.

matthew_lane:

cherry picked statements... trying to give new definitions to words... making false equivications.

Ah, more accusations. Isn't that nice :)

matthew_lane:

You've obviously become over invested in this coversation, to the point where you would argue that the earth is flat & the centre of the solar system, if you thought it would win you your main point.

This is the internet, you don't win.

matthew_lane:

Again i suggest you take some time to log off, maybe go outside for a couple of minutes, go make a sandwhich, take a couple of deep breathes & relax before coming back to this discussion.

HAHAH this hasn't been a "discussion" since post #160.

Mathew.. wulfen.. you guys should have an ERB... thought i think mathew would win because he actually has arguments instead of "HAHAHA"..

As for the event... no strippers, not during the conference, no one was forced to go there, no one was forced to dance.

And seriously? I see more skin when walking around the city at summertime. Those outfits showed some tights and bellies and people scream "SEXISM"?

*facepalm*

You know... heres some food for thought:

If the demographic would be mostly females attending those parties... the sponsors of said parties would hire beefcakes that dance for the ladies.

Because that is how those marketing people work: They dont give a shit about sexism(as in there is no intend to surpress any gender for being said gender, you know.. sexism?).. they pander to the majority of the demographic. This isnt sexism.. this is cold calculation.

The real problem is not some skin showing dancers in an after conference private rave.

It is making the developer job as a whole more accessible to women. I highly doubt that any female that wants to become a developer bases her decision to become on on the eye candy that might be around on some after conference rave party.

There are more serious problems in the industry then that... and none of them have to do with dancers.

Karadalis:
The real problem is not some skin showing dancers in an after conference private rave.

It is making the developer job as a whole more accessible to women. I highly doubt that any female that wants to become a developer bases her decision to become on on the eye candy that might be around on some after conference rave party.

There are more serious problems in the industry then that... and none of them have to do with dancers.

But are there really these huge problems in the industry? I mean we all hear about how sexist the industry is, but when called upon to give examples the majority of examples come from people outside the industry talking about how it must be sexist because there are more men then women in the industry.

Sure there are many issues with the industry, from draconian license agreements, crippling always on DRM, microtransaction systems killing particular MMO's, Game designers releasing games incompleted... But by and large i'd say that there is not nearly the amount of sexism in the games industry as everyone pretends is there... Its just that gaming, much like comics, is an easy target, since its demographic is mainly male... An if its mainly male, well then obviously its mainly male due to sexism & requires fixing so those nasty men can no longer keep poor old victimised women out.

If i were to point to the biggest issue with the industry at the moment, i would actually point to the walking abortion that is the gaming press.

matthew_lane:

Karadalis:
The real problem is not some skin showing dancers in an after conference private rave.

It is making the developer job as a whole more accessible to women. I highly doubt that any female that wants to become a developer bases her decision to become on on the eye candy that might be around on some after conference rave party.

There are more serious problems in the industry then that... and none of them have to do with dancers.

But are there really these huge problems in the industry? I mean we all hear about how sexist the industry is, but when called upon to give examples the majority of examples come from people outside the industry talking about how it must be sexist because there are more men then women in the industry.

Sure there are many issues with the industry, from draconian license agreements, crippling always on DRM, microtransaction systems killing particular MMO's, Game designers releasing games incompleted... But by and large i'd say that there is not nearly the amount of sexism in the games industry as everyone pretends is there... Its just that gaming, much like comics, is an easy target, since its demographic is mainly male... An if its mainly male, well then obviously its mainly male due to sexism & requires fixing so those nasty men can no longer keep poor old victimised women out.

If i were to point to the biggest issue with the industry at the moment, i would actually point to the walking abortion that is the gaming press.

To be honest.. i dont know if there are huge problems in the industry, im not an insider.

I can only refer to what some of the females in the industry say.

For all i know the job of a dev itselfe could not be that interesting to females but alas i am not one so i cant say either. All i know is that alot of women lately have made alot of noise about sexism in the industry so maybe theres some truth to that.

What i actually wanted to say is: That i am pretty sure that some skin on a private non mandatory rave party would be the least of any problems in the dev-industry

Karadalis:
To be honest.. i dont know if there are huge problems in the industry, im not an insider.

I can only refer to what some of the females in the industry say.

While i can't speak for the industry, i can speak for tertiary education in Australia. We have a college called Qantum, its specifically an industry college for game designers, media experts & animation experts. An i can tell you now that women are not only in the minority, they are in the extreme minority.

Yet we constantly hear about how the absense of women in the industry is caused by sexism... I really wonder where these industry ready women who are being excluded are studying, because its certainly not in the class room.

Karadalis:
For all i know the job of a dev itselfe could not be that interesting to females but alas i am not one so i cant say either. All i know is that alot of women lately have made alot of noise about sexism in the industry so maybe theres some truth to that.

Nah, thats called appeal to majority: A stance or position does not become more true based on how many people hold that stance to be self evident. It either is or is not true on its own merits.

Karadalis:
What i actually wanted to say is: That i am pretty sure that some skin on a private non mandatory rave party would be the least of any problems in the dev-industry

I would agree.

It would have been helpful if the strip had one of one mini blog posts at the bottom to discuss it, did this actually happen or is it the sort of thing that might happen?

matthew_lane:

While i can't speak for the industry, i can speak for tertiary education in Australia. We have a college called Qantum, its specifically an industry college for game designers, media experts & animation experts. An i can tell you now that women are not only in the minority, they are in the extreme minority.

While that may be true at Qantum, it is not true of every institution.

I really wonder where these industry ready women who are being excluded are studying, because its certainly not in the class room.

One doesn't need to be taught at a institution specifically focused on videogames to be able to be part of the industry.
Honestly thats more than a little absurd for you to say, particularly given your sample size is one campus.

Vault Citizen:
It would have been helpful if the strip had one of one mini blog posts at the bottom to discuss it, did this actually happen or is it the sort of thing that might happen?

Its an exaggeration of something that kind of happened.

What happened was there was a party AFTER a developers conference and had nothing to do with the official goings on, a rave to be specific, where a company called Wargaming who was hosting the party hired some women in gasmasks with bunny ears and sexy costumes to mingle, and the DJs of the rave asked them to join them on the stage and dance.

They werent strippers like the comic portrays though.

SacremPyrobolum:

As for that little incident I think that women was way out of line with reporting it. She got a guy fired because he was telling a in no way misogynist but sexually charge joke to his friend and coworker beside him.

She wasn't out of line, I mean she's hypocritical and an attention seeker for doing it when she makes the same kind of jokes, but all she did was bitch about it on twitter. The guys bosses were way the fuck out of line for firing him, and the people who attacked her work because of it were way out of line. (I'm not sure about her company, I haven't quite figured out the protocol for how to handle an employee that pisses off Anonymous).

I'm sorry, I don't like to post wholly negative comments but... This comic has NEVER made me laugh, or chuckle, or think deeply about a subject. It's just, THERE.

At best it's bland and forgettable and at worse it's reactionary and offensive, designed to create controversy and fuel flame wars.

On the plus side the art is always of a high standard, just the writing... oh god the writing.

wulf3n:

I understand it for normal clubs, but not for after parties.

Sure the parties are supposed to be fun, but this implies that for it to be fun you need to have attractive woman to talk to.

Which do you prefer night club raves where everyone is of the same ethnicity, country of origin, culture, sex, sexuality, or something where there are a more diverse range of people?

I'm fairly certain that meeting people you are attracted to is part of the point of attending a rave, for everyone who attends those things. Is it wrong of people to want that?

matthew_lane:

Except that they weren't there to make up some kind of gender difference: They were there as spokes models. They were there to pimp out a specific product or service.

This is not something new, or unique: Clubs do this all the time, when a company hires the space, does the promotion & then hires spokes models (male & female depending on the expected demographic) to pimp out a product or service: Its part of the promotion.

I'm not sure what your background is, but this is pretty workaday stuff guys.

Thanks for the correction, accuracy matters.

Where are you getting your information?
You appear to be better informed than I am about this, and well I'd like to have better knowledge of something I am discussing.

My background is not in organising clubbing events or similar, so it might be workaday stuff for someone else but its not for me.

I see what you are saying this was some kind of sales promotion, I should have known better than to think the after party would just be for entertainment. Its like TV, you think its for entertainment but in reality its trying to get you to pay attention to advertisements.

As someone with event planning experience this is a huge blunder on behalf of the vendor. Yes, it is workaday stuff to hire entertainment but part of the responsibility of the party/event planner is to be tapped in to the audience and the market of the client. Whoever organized and hired the entertainment as well as not giving guidelines to the DJ failed miserably at their job.

A few key points:
It doesn't matter how any entertainment is dressed: Bunny ears and gas masks, stripper g-strings and heels, shirtless male models with only a bowtie, or clothed head to toe in a suit or potato sack. The only thing that matters is that they are getting paid to stand there, dance and look pretty/handsome/desirable. That is what makes it sexist [this works for both genders] and is inappropriate.

Now if both genders were represented and they were serving drinks and providing some entertainment as a service in which they just happened to be dressed up as game characters in bunny ears and gas masks then it would be ok. Why? They are getting paid as a server/entertainer not as a model/sex object. Yes, this is semantics but anyone not bright enough to know the difference shouldn't be event planning in the first place.

To sum up: Scantily clad men or women being paid to model or jiggle around: Not ok. Same women or men serving drinks or providing entertainment like fire-breathing who just happen to be scantily clad: Ok.

Kumagawa Misogi:

Irridium:
For those who don't know, this is about that conference recently (think it was an IGDA conference) that brought out strippers in what should have been a professional environment for no apparent reason other than to have strippers.

Is this another prude USA thing? as in the UK our shopping centre's (malls to you I believe) have strippers during the day all the time and people of all ages just accept it I've never seen women when with there children show any offence anyway.

It is a prude usa thing we confuse "respect" and "rights" with "cover the lady bits". Like over here those dancers are seen as a barrier for women to come into our hobby and make games.

I guess most of our lady developers will be from the Uk. shrug lol

Smilomaniac:
-Snip-

I just used the word sexism in order to not use the word discrimination 2 times in a row. Probably a poor choice of words. I'd have gone with "unintentionally sexist behaviour"

I don't think that the people who hired the dancers did it with bad intent at all. Unfortunately one can offend some people unintentionally some times.

I didn't know the dance event was something separate from the conference when I read about it, so I don't think it was that bad. Just that by only catering to one gender the other one may feel ignored and take it personally, even though it was just an honest mistake and not a deliverate action to marginalize one gender.

As for hiring male strippers being seen as a blatantly PC statement.. well of course it would be seen that way, because that's exactly what it is, but there's nothing wrong with that. It'd just be a recognition of the fact that game developement is not a "boys only" club anymore.

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