On Dongles

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Aardvaarkman:
Do you really think males were even considered for the job?

Nope & you know what, thats still neither exclusion nor sexism.

matthew_lane:

Nope & you know what, thats still neither exclusion nor sexism.

How so?

matthew_lane:

Aardvaarkman:
Do you really think males were even considered for the job?

Nope & you know what, thats still neither exclusion nor sexism.

Except if you were a male model looking to get work at the YetiZen party, where the only reason you weren't hired was because of your gender. Then it very much is sexism and exclusion.

Aardvaarkman:

matthew_lane:

Nope & you know what, thats still neither exclusion nor sexism.

How so?

Because spokes models are organised through a third party, any male spokes models would be working else where as work permits. Thing is you don't get to choose where you work in that industry; you are told "we have a spot open at blahde blah, are you available on that night?"

Its not sexism or exclusionary because no one is being stopped from working on the basis of gender. You just won't be working at this event, you'll be somewhere else instead.

matthew_lane:

Its not sexism or exclusionary because no one is being stopped from working on the basis of gender. You just won't be working at this event, you'll be somewhere else instead.

This is one of the most bizarre arguments I have ever read. So, you think that for every position for a female, there is another one for a male? It's a zero-sum game?

This isn't about the agencies, anyway. It's about the sponsor companies who went to those agencies and specified "we want females for this event" - they are the ones being exclusionary and sexist. And it's not just toward the employees, it's toward the conference attendees, some of whom are women, and some of whom are gay. It's being exclusionary and sexist to pander to one particular demographic of the conference.

Of course, you understand all this. You're just being deliberately obtuse when others present arguments you can't respond meaningfully to. Like how you completely ignored the issue of your double-standard over "fake geek girls" and this situation, or the counter-arguments to your characterisation of raves, etc, etc.

P.S: How do you know they went through a third-party? Were you privy to the arrangements? The company claims that these were gamer girls who just happened to be models. That must be a pretty specific agency to hire from. Either that's a lie, or they hand-picked gamer girls who happened to be attractive exhibitionists.

Karadalis:

wulf3n:

Karadalis:

There would have been a problem if it had been on the conference itselfe but it wasnt.

Why?

What is the difference between the Conference organised by the IGDA and the After Party organised by YetiZen which required the approval of the IGDA to go ahead?

Seriously? I cant believe you have to ask...

You can not understand the difference between a conference wich you where send from your company to attend to learn about the newest achievements in your field of work,and a private rave that is offered to you to unwind and relax after a long day of soaking up dry and perhaps boring information, that is also totaly optional and happens after work hours?

After-parties for an industry is not for R&R, its for networking. In a highly competitive industry like Game Development, its about who you know and the best place you can meet those people with connections is at the after-party. IE: The purpose of an after-party is to allow the important people of a convention to have a meet and greet with the attendees. You wanna unwind and relax? Go to a club that isn't sponsored by your employer, who will still probably fire you if you get shit-faced and embarrass them at an after-party.

Seriously people, you all need to understand this. This was a WORK sponsored event, it should be professional regardless of the setting and Go-go dancers are not professional.

maddawg IAJI:
Seriously people, you all need to understand this. This was a WORK sponsored event, it should be professional regardless of the setting and Go-go dancers are not professional.

It wasn't a work sponsored event though. It was a company sponsored event, a company that was a different company then the one hosting the convention.

Also as has been pointed out god knows how many times now, there were no strippers, hookers, burlesque dancers, erotic interpretive dance choreographers, or go go dancers involved at all. Some spokes models who were working the floor were asked if they would like to come up and dance on stage by the DJ/rapper: They accepted & danced on stage for a single set.

People, please stop making shit up to be offended by. This thing you are offended by did not happen, an the thing that did happen is not only not a unique occurence, its par for the course for night clubs, as it should be.

matthew_lane:

maddawg IAJI:
Seriously people, you all need to understand this. This was a WORK sponsored event, it should be professional regardless of the setting and Go-go dancers are not professional.

It wasn't a work sponsored event though. It was a company sponsored event, a company that was a different company then the one hosting the convention..

You do like to ignore that it was co-sponsored by the company hosting the conference and also required the approval of the company hosting the conference.

If that's not a conference event then nothing is.

Aardvaarkman:
P.S: How do you know they went through a third-party? Were you privy to the arrangements?

Mate, whenever you see a spokes model at any venue where a sponsored event is happening, that spokes model was hired through a third party agency. This is done for many reasons, but one of the biggest is police clearances, background checks & insurance.

Aardvaarkman:
The company claims that these were gamer girls who just happened to be models. That must be a pretty specific agency to hire from. Either that's a lie, or they hand-picked gamer girls who happened to be attractive exhibitionists.

/facepalm. Seriously dude, what you know about this industry wouldn't fill the eye of a needle. There are actually specialised agency such as the D20 Girls or The Suicide Dolls that specialise in geeky events... You may have heard of them.

matthew_lane:

maddawg IAJI:
Seriously people, you all need to understand this. This was a WORK sponsored event, it should be professional regardless of the setting and Go-go dancers are not professional.

It wasn't a work sponsored event though. It was a company sponsored event, a company that was a different company then the one hosting the convention.

You missed the part where company 2 was hired by company 1 and company 1 Co-sponsored the event, hence why their name is written on the walls in the background of the picture. Now tell me, if the IGDA had nothing to do with, why is there name involved in it?

matthew_lane:

Also as has been pointed out god knows how many times now, there were no strippers, hookers, burlesque dancers, erotic interpretive dance choreographers, or go go dancers involved at all. Some spokes models who were working the floor were asked if they would like to come up and dance on stage by the DJ/rapper: They accepted & danced on stage for a single set.

Well for one, they aren't very professional models then are they? Whats their job? To socialize and interact with the crowd. What are they doing? Standing on stage dancing away from the crowd.

Not to mention, strippers or not, their attire is completely unacceptable for the event. One is literally wearing a mini-skirt and a crop-top and the other is wearing a strap-less dress with a miniskirt. Again, I go back to my previous argument where, and I'll state again, THAT SHIT IS COMPLETELY UNFIT FOR A PROFESSIONAL WORKPLACE!

matthew_lane:
People, please stop making shit up to be offended by. This thing you are offended by did not happen, an the thing that did happen is not only not a unique occurence, its par for the course for night clubs, as it should be.

There is no need to make shit up. Most conventions have stopped hiring booth babes now for this very reason and some people still haven't learned.

maddawg IAJI:
You missed the part where company 2 was hired by company 1 and company 1 Co-sponsored the event, hence why their name is written on the walls in the background of the picture. Now tell me, if the IGDA had nothing to do with, why is there name involved in it?

Becuase they did not co-sponsor the convention, because thats not how a convention works. A convention is a business, it requires all the legal & tax paper work any business does... There is no co-sponsoring. What they did was generated content for the convention.

It was a party mate (one that was open to the public), everything they did was suitable not only for the purpose of a party, but also for the location of a party (a nightclub).

If you don't like fun abandon thats cool, but you can't shit all over the people that do.

maddawg IAJI:
Well for one, they aren't very professional models then are they? Whats their job? To socialize and interact with the crowd. What are they doing? Standing on stage dancing away from the crowd.

Mate, spoke models are selling the idea of fun & thats exactly what they did. Working at a night club is nothing like working in an office & i am telling you that as someone who has worked in both.

maddawg IAJI:
Not to mention, strippers or not, their attire is completely unacceptable for the event. One is literally wearing a mini-skirt and a crop-top and the other is wearing a strap-less dress with a miniskirt. Again, I go back to my previous argument where, and I'll state again, THAT SHIT IS COMPLETELY UNFIT FOR A PROFESSIONAL WORKPLACE!

No, its inappropriate if you work in a covent, or you teach primary school kids, but for a night club its completely adequate. I mean by your logic all life guards can't wear a swimming costume because "THAT SHIT IS COMPLETELY UNFIT FOR A PROFESSIONAL WORKPLACE!"

maddawg IAJI:
There is no need to make shit up. Most conventions have stopped hiring booth babes now for this very reason and some people still haven't learned.

Its not a convention, its a night club.

Aardvaarkman:
The company claims that these were gamer girls who just happened to be models. That must be a pretty specific agency to hire from. Either that's a lie, or they hand-picked gamer girls who happened to be attractive exhibitionists.

/facepalm. Seriously dude, what you know about this industry wouldn't fill the eye of a needle. There are actually specialised agency such as the D20 Girls or The Suicide Dolls that specialise in geeky events... You may have heard of them.

So, which agency was used to fill these particular positions?

And even if they are a "geeky" agency, then how do they guarantee the gamer bona-fides that the company claims? Couldn't they just be pretending?

Also, why do you feel the need to insult anyone who disagrees with you?

I just want to say that everyone on the 1reasonwhy panel is in the industry I have no idea why certain people would think they weren't

Also they said they were offended by it because it suggests that the IDGA didn't want them there or thought of women as their audience. At an event where there was discussion of the bad treatment of women in the industry that was a bit rude to say the least.

It's an issue of exclusion not of sexy dancers.

http://kotaku.com/5963528/heres-a-devastating-account-of-the-crap-women-in-the-games-business-have-to-deal-with-in-2012

All in the games industry... including Kim Swift probably the most prominent female dev, she designed that little game you maybe have heard of called Portal.

matthew_lane:
snip

So if IGDA did not co-sponsor/co-present/co-whatever the event, why does the IGDA say they co-sponsored the event?

Aardvaarkman:
So, which agency was used to fill these particular positions?

No idea.

Aardvaarkman:
Also, why do you feel the need to insult anyone who disagrees with you?

Its not an insult, its a scathingly accurate announcement of your knowledge in this field.

Knight Templar:

matthew_lane:
snip

So if IGDA did not co-sponsor/co-present/co-whatever the event, why does the IGDA say they co-sponsored the event?

For the same reason WotC constantly gets "sponsored by" on Gencon posters, while actually having nothing to do with the convention: It brings in more people.

matthew_lane:

Aardvaarkman:
So, which agency was used to fill these particular positions?

No idea.

So, if you had no idea, why did you mention D20 and Suicide Girls? You have no idea whether they used one of those agencies, or any agency at all.

Aardvaarkman:
Also, why do you feel the need to insult anyone who disagrees with you?

matthew_lane:
Its not an insult, its a scathingly accurate announcement of your knowledge in this field.

Except that doesn't apply just to my comments, it applies to many (the majority?) of your comments. You see something you don't agree with, and start hurling insults. Don't like raves or electronic music? Then everybody who disagrees must be into bad dubstep and picking up random drunk "chicks".

It's actually quite funny how you pronounce your own statements as "scathing" - oohhhh, no, I've been burned by the almighty matthew_lane and his scathingly accurate commentary! Back in reality, you are just somebody commenting on a message board, who knows nothing about his targets. With hilarious results.

matthew_lane:

Knight Templar:

matthew_lane:
snip

So if IGDA did not co-sponsor/co-present/co-whatever the event, why does the IGDA say they co-sponsored the event?

For the same reason WotC constantly gets "sponsored by" on Gencon posters, while actually having nothing to do with the convention: It brings in more people.

But the IGDA say they had involvement in the event, they gave the green light to the outfits they just didn't realise how they would be used, and wouldn't have approved them if they knew.

Besides, WotC sponsoring Gencon isn't just an in-name thing, it means they are providing at the very least funding. Not surprising since at one point they owned the damned thing. Nevermind the fact Wizards is just one sponsor of several, for the event we are talking about there seems to have been only two entities involved.

The degree to which those two situations are comparable is small, and the degree to which that comparison is in your favor, it is not.

If you people think that what these women were wearing was all that risque, you must go to some pretty tame nightclubs. I've been to clubs where they have women running around in nothing but tape and candlewax and they aren't even paid. And the private after parties typically feature nudity. It's not really my thing to be honest, i prefer women with a little more class myself but that is rare where i live.

Aramis Night:
If you people think that what these women were wearing was all that risque, you must go to some pretty tame nightclubs. I've been to clubs where they have women running around in nothing but tape and candlewax and they aren't even paid. And the private after parties typically feature nudity. It's not really my thing to be honest, i prefer women with a little more class myself but that is rare where i live.

The issue isn't so much the clothing (for most people), but that they were hired dancers. It's the perceived message/intention behind it that is making people unhappy. I'd hope nobody would be so childish to take issue if the women were just guests like everybody else.

On a side-note, I think I may be in love with this person. She has summed up beautifully what I often try and say, but ten times better than I could ever have put it.

Chemical Alia:

Jesus Christ, this thread. D:

To be honest, I was expecting it like this the moment I saw the comic. It was inevitable, as we are yet to have a discussion on sexism without it devolving into both "sides" flinging insults at each other.

Which is another reason I love the article I linked above.

matthew_lane:

maddawg IAJI:
There is no need to make shit up. Most conventions have stopped hiring booth babes now for this very reason and some people still haven't learned.

Its not a convention, its a night club.

Somehow I get the feeling you've never actually gone to GDC for the purpose of networking/finding a job, much less a GDC-sponsored event. It's a very small industry, and networking plays a huge part in your success in it. For many people, these events can be the most important of their trip and they are very much still a professional setting.

Jesus Christ, this thread. D:

matthew_lane:

Becuase they did not co-sponsor the convention, because thats not how a convention works. A convention is a business, it requires all the legal & tax paper work any business does... There is no co-sponsoring. What they did was generated content for the convention.

It was a party mate (one that was open to the public), everything they did was suitable not only for the purpose of a party, but also for the location of a party (a nightclub).

So according to you, they're not sponsoring the event despite the fact they hired the group to host the party, they had the name of their organization printed on the walls (In a similar manner that Home Depot sponsors Nascar drivers) and they had to approve the dancers and other plans that we're suggested for the party. Lets look at the definition for the word "Sponsor" shall we.

Sponsor (noun)Definition 5) One that finances a project or an event carried out by another person or group, especially a business enterprise that pays for radio or television programming in return for advertising time.

Oh and IGDA claims responsibility as having sponsored the event.

matthew_lane:
If you don't like fun abandon thats cool, but you can't shit all over the people that do.

Oh, I have no problem with fun and abandon, I understand it was a public party that was hosted aT a nightclub, but as I said earlier, those events are not for actual partying. The after party is for networking and for promoting a casual business environment. You don't get to party with industry heads and influencial people within the market often, so you go to these parties to make an impression.

matthew_lane:

Mate, spoke models are selling the idea of fun & thats exactly what they did. Working at a night club is nothing like working in an office & i am telling you that as someone who has worked in both.

And I take it that during your time working in the office you've never attended a convention for work or you don't work in a field where advancement is based heavily on who you know. Look at the image of the dancers in the forbes magazine linked earlier, notice how no one is actually looking at the girls except the person taking the picture? That's because they're taking advantage of their time. Also, please, pick an argument and defend it. Don't jump from, "The IGDA had nothing to do with it" to "Its just a party, you need to relax."

matthew_lane:

No, its inappropriate if you work in a covent, or you teach primary school kids, but for a night club its completely adequate.

Not a night club party, a office sponsored event. I've never heard of a female teacher coming to our parties dressed in a mini-skirt or furry boots and yes, we have hosted them at night clubs before as well.

matthew_lane:
I mean by your logic all life guards can't wear a swimming costume because "THAT SHIT IS COMPLETELY UNFIT FOR A PROFESSIONAL WORKPLACE!"

Life-guarding isn't a white-collar job, its an emergency service job. Its a uniform that fits toward the job.

matthew_lane:

Its not a convention, its a night club.

Sponsored by a convention that had just recently preached the need for women to be shown in a better light among Developers.

Honestly, at this point it seems like the debate is really around whether an after-party at a convention should be considered part of the convention itself, and thus subject to the standards of professional decorum and attire, or considered a separate event.

Personally, I see it a separate event. And in light of that, the behavior and dress was appropriate for that party. In any other setting or with any other attendees, it wouldn't be considered sexist, it would just be a party. If you are going to have a party, and you are ok with it being a party, it's kind of odd to complain that the party is too partyish.

The question that really needs to be asked is "Do these sorts of large elaborate after-parties belong in an industry that is trying to portray itself as more mature." There's a reasonable discussion to be had there and it seems like there is a real disagreement about that. On the other hand, phrasing the objection as "This industry wants to appeal to women so having large after-parties like this is sexist" while admitting that it would be perfectly ok as a normal party is not quite as reasonable.

Knight Templar:

matthew_lane:
snip

So if IGDA did not co-sponsor/co-present/co-whatever the event, why does the IGDA say they co-sponsored the event?

And why does YetiZen say they required the approval of the IGDA?

Legion:

On a side-note, I think I may be in love with this person. She has summed up beautifully what I often try and say, but ten times better than I could ever have put it.

Interesting article thanks for the link.

I think it highlights the danger of the expression of extreme views on this issue. It tends to polarise and alienate.

#1ReasonWhy...some of those tweets were just bloody depressing though.

I stopped reading them after a bit it was just getting me down.

"Awkward as a face full of ass."

That about sums up my feelings on the matter too.

Uhura:

This is some serious Eyes Wide Shut shit. I find this highly disturbing, less so about the fact that there are dancing girls at a game convention and more so about the fact that they thought rabbit gas-masks would be the way to go. What the hell were they thinking?

Do4600:

Uhura:

This is some serious Eyes Wide Shut shit. I find this highly disturbing, less so about the fact that there are dancing girls at a game convention and more so about the fact that they thought rabbit gas-masks would be the way to go. What the hell were they thinking?

It wasnt a GDC party, it was a wargaming party that happened to be around the time of GDC.

And as for the gas masks, again, Wargaming, World war 2 stuff, with a bit of modern flair

DVS BSTrD:
From this perspective it looks more like Zone of End her's.

*sigh* It's Zone of the End Her's. Come on man. You had the perfect chance.

I dunno. Just seems like a typical party to me with some hired dancers.

Desert Punk:

Do4600:

Uhura:

This is some serious Eyes Wide Shut shit. I find this highly disturbing, less so about the fact that there are dancing girls at a game convention and more so about the fact that they thought rabbit gas-masks would be the way to go. What the hell were they thinking?

It wasnt a GDC party, it was a wargaming party that happened to be around the time of GDC.

And as for the gas masks, again, Wargaming, World war 2 stuff, with a bit of modern flair

looks like an awesome party to me! figures this was blown out of proportion again.:/

Legion:

Aramis Night:
If you people think that what these women were wearing was all that risque, you must go to some pretty tame nightclubs. I've been to clubs where they have women running around in nothing but tape and candlewax and they aren't even paid. And the private after parties typically feature nudity. It's not really my thing to be honest, i prefer women with a little more class myself but that is rare where i live.

The issue isn't so much the clothing (for most people), but that they were hired dancers. It's the perceived message/intention behind it that is making people unhappy. I'd hope nobody would be so childish to take issue if the women were just guests like everybody else.

On a side-note, I think I may be in love with this person. She has summed up beautifully what I often try and say, but ten times better than I could ever have put it.

Chemical Alia:

Jesus Christ, this thread. D:

To be honest, I was expecting it like this the moment I saw the comic. It was inevitable, as we are yet to have a discussion on sexism without it devolving into both "sides" flinging insults at each other.

Which is another reason I love the article I linked above.

I too loved it thank you. It actually makes me feel good that there are women out there that dont just see it all with such negativity and are fighting against it whilst journalists and there ilk blindly shovel it in our faces. This shitty brand of female empowerment that there trying to sell us instead of true equality in the industry.

wackelpudding:
"Testosterzone" -- my new favourite word!

You're traveling through another dimension, a dimension not only of sight and sound but of rage A journey into a wondrous land whose boundaries are that of old age and 'lowT'. There's a sign post up ahead your next stop, the Testosterzone.

Aramis Night:
If you people think that what these women were wearing was all that risque, you must go to some pretty tame nightclubs. I've been to clubs where they have women running around in nothing but tape and candlewax and they aren't even paid. And the private after parties typically feature nudity. It's not really my thing to be honest, i prefer women with a little more class myself but that is rare where i live.

I think the topic being discussed isn't so much HOW hardcore the nightclubs you frequent are so much as not even slightly about that at all! I think they were talking about strippers being used as a cheap method of advertising the product at a games convention rather than their rightful place at a club, the repercussions of which is a perpetuation of gaming as a singularly male hobby.

Mr Companion:

Aramis Night:
If you people think that what these women were wearing was all that risque, you must go to some pretty tame nightclubs. I've been to clubs where they have women running around in nothing but tape and candlewax and they aren't even paid. And the private after parties typically feature nudity. It's not really my thing to be honest, i prefer women with a little more class myself but that is rare where i live.

I think the topic being discussed isn't so much HOW hardcore the nightclubs you frequent are so much as not even slightly about that at all! I think they were talking about strippers being used as a cheap method of advertising the product at a games convention rather than their rightful place at a club, the repercussions of which is a perpetuation of gaming as a singularly male hobby.

Wait, so adding females to the event and even paying them to be there = keeping women out of gaming conventions? I'm so confused. Sounds to me like going to great lengths to get women into gaming conventions. I thought that was what everyone wanted.

Aramis Night:

Mr Companion:

Aramis Night:
If you people think that what these women were wearing was all that risque, you must go to some pretty tame nightclubs. I've been to clubs where they have women running around in nothing but tape and candlewax and they aren't even paid. And the private after parties typically feature nudity. It's not really my thing to be honest, i prefer women with a little more class myself but that is rare where i live.

I think the topic being discussed isn't so much HOW hardcore the nightclubs you frequent are so much as not even slightly about that at all! I think they were talking about strippers being used as a cheap method of advertising the product at a games convention rather than their rightful place at a club, the repercussions of which is a perpetuation of gaming as a singularly male hobby.

Wait, so adding females to the event and even paying them to be there = keeping women out of gaming conventions? I'm so confused. Sounds to me like going to great lengths to get women into gaming conventions. I thought that was what everyone wanted.

I am going to assume you are not joking (if you are its actually quite funny :D)
Hiring people to go to something as eye candy is not the same thing. These ladies and "Booth Babes" have no interest in gaming and they are hired to attract sexually frustrated male teens to these events. A heterosexual woman trying to attend these events would feel alienated. Its like how a guy feels weird watching Twilight.

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