It Never Ends

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Sonic Doctor:
Great article Bob.

But seriously, I'm getting really tired of the silliness of complaining about games that come out that are like this. Yes, as you said Bob:

The problem isn't, and has never been, that The Sorceress (or Ivy, or Cammy, or Lara, or Daphne, or whomever else) look like they do... it's that everything looks like they do.

But I have a problem with how you pointed out the problem, the phrase used should be "many" look like they do, not everything, because that is untrue.

The problem I have with people that throw insults at companies that make these games is that they are trying to get their message across in a hateful and really unproductive way.

If gamers want games with more seriously looking and portrayed women characters, they should ask, maybe even petition, or fund for such games to be made. If people want to create games that don't fit your view, just move along and let them, or give them a reason to make the games you want. Attacking them doesn't work. I for one would never want to make something for someone that was trying to bully me into making it, or putting me down because they think what I'm doing is stupid.

Be understanding, game companies are businesses that need to make money, or they can't continue to make games. Say, "Okay, we understand you make games with women characters we don't like, because there is and will always be a large demographic for it. We want to tell you that there is also a demographic for games with other styles of women characters(less exaggerated).

Throwing tantrums and insults will get your agenda nowhere. Really, I think the best way feminists will get the characters they want in more mainstream games, is to turn to the Indie market. Find Indie developers that are willing to work with you on what you want. Because the point of doing that is, it is obvious that these days, the big developers like to try and copy the Indie scene, because they have seen how such games make money hand over fist. So if you can get a feminist approved game that makes loads of cash, you will be able to get the other companies to notice.

Don't push for the removal or end of "sexist" games, just push for the creation of the games you want. Again, insults make things to go nowhere.

In many ways, this is where the majority of the block int he discussion is. It's not that most of us deny sexism in videogaming, but trying to tone down the hyperbole makes it look like we do. Yes, women portrayed like Jill Vanentine, Chell, Samus, and Peach are rarer, but they do exist, and there's ample opportunity to let your demographic be known to the industry, especially now that things are available digitally. We all know companies go where the money is, so if there are things that add diversity, but they didn't sell, then the fault isn't on game companies for not providing, but on us for not buying. And who the hell wants to blame ourselves when there are faceless corporations we can blame for not marketing to us?

I really REALLY would like some actual statistics on these kind of things instead of emotion filled tantrums from people that act like they've looked at every single video game on the planet and came up empty.

Honestly, it's impossible for me to take anyone who claims that any design in a Vanillaware game is representative of an industry standard.

The only reason all of you are talking about the sorceress in the first place is that her design goes so far beyond usual tropes in its exaggeration. If her design didn't stand out as exceptional, there wouldn't be anywhere near this much talk about a design in a niche game from a niche publisher. You throw out examples like Ivy and Kasumi, but none of the standard 'sexy' characters you name actually look anything like the sorceress; they appear conservative in comparison.

Ignoring the games other designs is incredibly lazy and intellectually dishonest. Look at the amazon. How many other games have characters that look like that? How many games have visibly super-muscular women of any kind? Look at the knight and the dwarf. Even among impossibly bulky male protagonists, how many look that cartoonishly exaggerated? Look at other Vanillaware games. How much of their work looks like anything else in gaming? They make niche games with a very distinctive visual style, driven by the creative vision of an individual artist, not big-budget titles that are designed by committee and decide what to include based on pandering to fan demographics.

You're having what should be a meaningful debate, but it isn't a debate about Dragon's Crown, nor is it terribly relevant to that game.

MovieBob:
It Never Ends

MovieBob discusses the recent Dragon's Crown controversy, and why we really need more diversity in our videogame characters.

Read Full Article

It must be fun to represent the exact same groups who have said point blank that they want to destroy the current video game market, in no uncertain terms. They want your childhood. They want to eat it for breakfast. They complain about everything without the slightest grasp of things like marketing and what sells.

You'd do well to avoid the sensationalist drivel and idle name calling journalist rackets like Kotaku engage in. You should aspire to more lofty goals than playing follow the leader.

Fappy:
I think this is your most important point:

The problem isn't, and has never been, that The Sorceress (or Ivy, or Cammy, or Lara, or Daphne, or whomever else) look like they do... it's that everything looks like they do.

A lot of the people on this site in particular have the notion that female gamers are always going to be upset when this kind of thing crops up. As someone who has had lengthy conversations with said female gamers on the subject I can attest to the fact that this is completely untrue... at least for the majority of female gamers. There is always going to be a market for sleazy character designs and that's okay. The reason female gamers are so upset is because, frankly, there aren't many games out their that don't objectify the female form.

Dragon's Crown may turn out to be a pretty cool game and I am not about to mock someone who's a fan of the character design, but is it so wrong for games like this to get criticized? If there isn't any dialogue in this regard we'll never see any progress. This game's just in the wrong place at the wrong time.

This is an utterly imbecilic and patently untrue argument as far as I can see, as I posted in the other topic regarding this topic, please go visit the Steam Store and browse through the list of late releases, I couldn't find a single game that fits your criteria throughout the first few pages: http://store.steampowered.com/

The amount of "mass market games" after 2010 or so that do this are infinitesimally small and are usually Japanese or Korean games. Almost every single example that keeps being brought up as this "evil example" is from games 5+ years ago (the last Tomb Raider before the new one was from 2008, the last Street Fighter is from 2008 etc.) and the very few games that dare to show any amount of boobs always seem to become this huge flamefest, every single one of them.

It boils down to, "You shouldn't like what I don't like and it shouldn't exist because it offeeeeeeeends meeeeeeeeee! Everyone shouldn't hurt my feelings!"
image

It's usually also a very loud minority that complains and a bunch of "videogame journalists". There's still a market of millions for all of these games that like them just fine, as I pointed out before when Scarlet Blade came up, go through this thread of people who play the game and see just how many women not only don't have a problem with its design, but actively like it and play/enjoy the game because of it: http://www.aeriagames.com/forums/en/viewtopic.php?t=1793473

image

This seems like a parody. Its more ridiculous than sexual. I think feminists would make a bigger impact if they complained about more serious examples of sexism in games, and let this stuff slide since its basically more silly than anything. That's just my opinion on complaining strategy...if this really offends you, go ahead and say something.

captcha: it is different

no, captcha, its all the same.

Yup, the Sorceress in this game is ridiculous but to be honest, it's no more exaggerated than the image of the viking style dude, a guy who looks so insanely beefy that I bet he could not actually wipe his backside. I'm calling sexism on both sides here, but as it's so silly I'm letting it slide.

(p.s. as an aside, my wife and stepdaughter have seen the Sorceress character in the trailer and both said that if they could make their boobs float they would as apparently having big boobs is *sore*)

defskyoen:
snip

Fear of the slippery slope or domino effect depending to how you would see it.

That if a game proves popular and does the usual stereotypical female depictions in its cast of characters, future games might seek to create similar characters. This could continue indefinitely and thus some outside whistleblowing is needed from time to time.

Of course what would be nice is if in the future a majority of games can make do without the sexiness and that the fanservice heavy games are considered fringe by the general audience.

Every character in Dragons Crown is drawn with absurd levels of exaggeration. So what if one of the characters has large breasts?!

Western society is too prudish.

If you don't like the look of a character, then don't play as her, or simply don't buy the game at all.

Maxtro:
Every character in Dragons Crown is drawn with absurd levels of exaggeration. So what if one of the characters has large breasts?!

Western society is too prudish.

If you don't like the look of a character, then don't play as her, or simply don't buy the game at all.

Unfortunately, not looking at a fire doesn't extinguish it. The those that did blow the whistle on this game were probably concerned about how this work might influence works to perpetuate something we would preferably shove into the backrooms.

PunkRex:

Evil Smurf:

PunkRex:
This is why I love you Bob, agreements all round. I was raised by my mum, little sister and nan but gawd damn if I just don't like me a busty red head.

Then I think you'll like Faye Reagan, just a hunch.

Anyway, I don't really mind if a game has overly sexualised characters, but if it is overboard then I can't play for the awkward: See Lollipop Chainsaw massacre.

*Ahem* Weeeell I... may know of her...

;D great is'n't she.

Maxtro:
Every character in Dragons Crown is drawn with absurd levels of exaggeration. So what if one of the characters has large breasts?!

Western society is too prudish.

If you don't like the look of a character, then don't play as her, or simply don't buy the game at all.

from th kotaku writer he's arguing the disproportion of sexualising women to but as many have pointed out to use the art direction of Dragon's Crown for that complaint is a trivial pursuit.
Well that's what i gather.

Hugo Artenis Rune:

(p.s. as an aside, my wife and stepdaughter have seen the Sorceress character in the trailer and both said that if they could make their boobs float they would as apparently having big boobs is *sore*)

it's murder on the back too

There is nothing wrong with this character design.

There are women that have breasts that size. I'd post a pic or two, but I'm sure the mods would cause issue, and I get the feeling those who'd benefit most from it aren't mature to handle it.

Some people are just too sensitive, stubborn or ignorant to understand the character is exaggerated for fun affect. You just have to look at the other characters in the roster to understand that. The same people who complain about the mage are the kinds of people who take South Park too seriously. Or fail to look at a product as a whole, or even playing the product at all (didn't we have this nonsense with Tomb Raider half a year back?), and jump the gun.

Then, there's others, where--

image

Red X:
it's murder on the back too

Makes me wonder how evolution/nature could even think of designing a body that has large breasts and not a strong enough back to comfortably support it. It's like nature had a hiccup, because it's had tens of thousands of years to perfect human design and we still end up having women with large breasts being in pain! How the hell did those women manage before bras were invented (i.e. how nature intended it)...did they simply avoid physical activity or what o_O

Meaning no offense to women with large breasts IRL, I'm sure they are equally frustrated and ponder the same question! Or maybe they are happy/satisfied, who am I to generalize :D

Yuuki:

Red X:
it's murder on the back too

Makes me wonder how evolution/nature could even think of designing a body that has large breasts and not a strong enough back to comfortably support it. It's like nature had a hiccup, because it's had tens of thousands of years to perfect human design and we still end up having women with large breasts being in pain! How the hell did those women manage before bras were invented (i.e. how nature intended it)...did they simply avoid physical activity or what o_O

Meaning no offense to women with large breasts IRL, I'm sure they are equally frustrated and ponder the same question! Or maybe they are happy/satisfied, who am I to generalize :D

Evolution is hardly perfect, that's why 99% of every species that has ever existed is extinct ;)

Geez, finding sexualized female characters in video games jarring/problematic doesn't indicate an immature or prudish disposition.

Yuuki:

Red X:
it's murder on the back too

Makes me wonder how evolution/nature could even think of designing a body that has large breasts and not a strong enough back to comfortably support it. It's like nature had a hiccup, because it's had tens of thousands of years to perfect human design and we still end up having women with large breasts being in pain! How the hell did those women manage before bras were invented (i.e. how nature intended it)...did they simply avoid physical activity or what o_O

Meaning no offense to women with large breasts IRL, I'm sure they are equally frustrated and ponder the same question! Or maybe they are happy/satisfied, who am I to generalize :D

Greek (maybe Roman) women chopped off a breast to fire arrows, the Asian Ladies wrapped themselves up for support (imagine that routine) and then there's the corset but that caused more important health problem hell, men wore them first :P Before that they must have just tightened the backs of there dresses to stop, "spillage" (smooth). The only male equivalent to a bra are briefs, we don't have that many option and they tend to chaff... but that's something else entirely _

Most large breasted Women i know love their girls but hate the amount of money they have to spend to support them... Now they know how their men feel!

image

[double post]

Bob, the art in Dragon's Crown is grotesque and disgusting. Get your shit together, man.

The male elf & the Female Link look okay though.

Yuuki:

Makes me wonder how evolution/nature could even think of designing a body that has large breasts and not a strong enough back to comfortably support it. It's like nature had a hiccup, because it's had tens of thousands of years to perfect human design and we still end up having women with large breasts being in pain! How the hell did those women manage before bras were invented (i.e. how nature intended it)...did they simply avoid physical activity or what o_O

Meaning no offense to women with large breasts IRL, I'm sure they are equally frustrated and ponder the same question! Or maybe they are happy/satisfied, who am I to generalize :D

Evolution is lazy. It does only what is necessary, not what is best. If a person is still able to have and raise as many children as everyone else, it really does not matter to evolution how inefficient or broken down the body is.

On topic, I really can't muster up rage against the Sorceress. Its sexist, sure, but primarily it just strikes me as incredibly juvenile. Like the gradeschool students who would scribble naughty pictures in their textbooks.

You know, Kamitani already issued an apology, and Jason Schreier refused to accept, still continuing to attack him.

You see what I mean here? It's like he's asking other artists like me to give him the same treatment, and not only refuse to back down, but also let him know that he's asking to have his face reconstructed.

I don't care who's right or wrong about this topic anymore. Having the entire fucking internet gang up on you just for doing what you like is pack mentality at its most vile. Shame on all of you, both sides.

Maxtro:
Every character in Dragons Crown is drawn with absurd levels of exaggeration. So what if one of the characters has large breasts?!

Western society is too prudish.

If you don't like the look of a character, then don't play as her, or simply don't buy the game at all.

So if I make a game that has a blackface character with a massive afro, fights by throwing watermelons, and heals himself by eating fried chicken, I am excused from all criticism because it's 'ironic?' I'll be sure to let David Duke know this.

Pogilrup:

Maxtro:
Every character in Dragons Crown is drawn with absurd levels of exaggeration. So what if one of the characters has large breasts?!

Western society is too prudish.

If you don't like the look of a character, then don't play as her, or simply don't buy the game at all.

Unfortunately, not looking at a fire doesn't extinguish it. The those that did blow the whistle on this game were probably concerned about how this work might influence works to perpetuate something we would preferably shove into the backrooms.

So then those people are guilty of betraying other gamers, and they are doing it to appease the ignorance of others. And I wouldn't stop to piss on them even if they were on fire. The enemy is those who would try to blame and shame everyone who enjoys an artistic medium because they find certain uses of that medium to be offensive.

From arch-conservatives to militant feminists, to the far-right to the far-left of the political spectrum, those who attempt to politicise gaming are no friends to any gamer who would like to play games free of censorship and repression.

Paradoxrifts:

Pogilrup:

Maxtro:
Every character in Dragons Crown is drawn with absurd levels of exaggeration. So what if one of the characters has large breasts?!

Western society is too prudish.

If you don't like the look of a character, then don't play as her, or simply don't buy the game at all.

Unfortunately, not looking at a fire doesn't extinguish it. The those that did blow the whistle on this game were probably concerned about how this work might influence works to perpetuate something we would preferably shove into the backrooms.

So then those people are guilty of betraying other gamers, and they are doing it to appease the ignorance of others. And I wouldn't stop to piss on them even if they were on fire. The enemy is those who would try to blame and shame everyone who enjoys an artistic medium because they find certain uses of that medium to be offensive.

From arch-conservatives to militant feminists, to the far-right to the far-left of the political spectrum, those who attempt to politicise gaming are no friends to any gamer who would like to play games free of censorship and repression.

Hey, did you know that criticism and censorship are not synonymous? Amazing, I know!

Pogilrup:

Maxtro:
Every character in Dragons Crown is drawn with absurd levels of exaggeration. So what if one of the characters has large breasts?!

Western society is too prudish.

If you don't like the look of a character, then don't play as her, or simply don't buy the game at all.

Unfortunately, not looking at a fire doesn't extinguish it.

And what harm will come to you by ignoring this game?

Pogilrup:

The those that did blow the whistle on this game were probably concerned about how this work might influence works to perpetuate something we would preferably shove into the backrooms.

So basically this might lead to more games you don't like which you could also ignore. So what?

Uhura:
Geez, finding sexualized female characters in video games jarring/problematic doesn't indicate an immature or prudish disposition.

Tell me about it.

I find them annoying and I wish they would go away, but I'm not going to pretend their existence causes problems beyond "I may get some questionable looks playing this in public".

Father Time:

Pogilrup:

Maxtro:
Every character in Dragons Crown is drawn with absurd levels of exaggeration. So what if one of the characters has large breasts?!

Western society is too prudish.

If you don't like the look of a character, then don't play as her, or simply don't buy the game at all.

Unfortunately, not looking at a fire doesn't extinguish it.

And what harm will come to you by ignoring this game?

Yeah, and everyone should have paid no attention to Triuph of the Will because it was nothing but a collection of film strips that no one had to watch.

(Yeah I know, Godwin's Law. But I feel these threads are so stupid that they deserve it)

Mahoshonen:

Father Time:

Pogilrup:

Unfortunately, not looking at a fire doesn't extinguish it.

And what harm will come to you by ignoring this game?

Yeah, and everyone should have paid no attention to Triuph of the Will because it was nothing but a collection of film strips that no one had to watch.

(Yeah I know, Godwin's Law. But I feel these threads are so stupid that they deserve it)

And this is why we have Godwin's Law. You just compared scantily clad women to Nazis. The fictional characters are not trying to convey any message or morals, they're just scantily clad and you compare them to Nazis.

image

Mahoshonen:

Paradoxrifts:

Pogilrup:

Unfortunately, not looking at a fire doesn't extinguish it. The those that did blow the whistle on this game were probably concerned about how this work might influence works to perpetuate something we would preferably shove into the backrooms.

So then those people are guilty of betraying other gamers, and they are doing it to appease the ignorance of others. And I wouldn't stop to piss on them even if they were on fire. The enemy is those who would try to blame and shame everyone who enjoys an artistic medium because they find certain uses of that medium to be offensive.

From arch-conservatives to militant feminists, to the far-right to the far-left of the political spectrum, those who attempt to politicise gaming are no friends to any gamer who would like to play games free of censorship and repression.

Hey, did you know that criticism and censorship are not synonymous? Amazing, I know!

There is a world of difference between someone offering solid and constructive criticism, and using the entertainment that we love not only as a soapbox of their own political viewpoints but also engaging in organised attempts to censor dissenting viewpoints, and enforce to the best of their ability a consensus on what and what isn't acceptable to be included in a video game.

Mahoshonen:

Maxtro:
Every character in Dragons Crown is drawn with absurd levels of exaggeration. So what if one of the characters has large breasts?!

Western society is too prudish.

If you don't like the look of a character, then don't play as her, or simply don't buy the game at all.

So if I make a game that has a blackface character with a massive afro, fights by throwing watermelons, and heals himself by eating fried chicken, I am excused from all criticism because it's 'ironic?' I'll be sure to let David Duke know this.

So you think they're trying to insult women by making ones with large breasts? How would that work exactly?

Mahoshonen:
Yeah, and everyone should have paid no attention to Triuph of the Will because it was nothing but a collection of film strips that no one had to watch.

(Yeah I know, Godwin's Law. But I feel these threads are so stupid that they deserve it)

Father Time:
And this is why we have Godwin's Law. You just compared scantily clad women to Nazis. The fictional characters are not trying to convey any message or morals, they're just scantily clad and you compare them to Nazis.

image

What about scantily clad Nazis?

GryffinDarkBreed:

Everyone has the right to be offensive. You have no rights protecting you from being offended. Don't like it? Don't look, listen, or participate.

Or what? You will feel offended? Please, "CRY SOEM MOAR" about how people' negative opinions about a game's design shouldn't exist.

That was pretty much the point of the article, if you would have read it istead of just assuming that it must be about feminazis trying to violate your freedom of speech regarding Dragon's Crown.

Progressives won't shut up about conservative stances being "offensive", because while everyone has a right to be offensive, everyone also has a right to call out everyone else on being offensive. (and of course, everyone has a right to call out people on crying "offensive" too early).

moviebob:

So long as the same basic human right of free speech holds one individual's ability to say something and another individual's ability to voice displeasure at what the first said as equally protected, there will always be these arguments. Always.

You haven't added anything to this argument, you just made one step back to how your rights imply that these arguments shouldn't exist.

Please tell me I'm not in the minority here when I say: who gives a shit?

In the words of a random female Castanic from another game that stirred up at least just as much controversy over boobs and the portrayal of women: If you don't like it, leave.

That's really all there is to it. They can design the characters they want, and make the games they want and... you, you can choose not to buy the game if it offends you that much. Call of Duty offends me. I don't own anything past Modern Warfare 2. It's easier than complaining and makes a bigger impact.

Personally? I don't like this new character. She's shown up on certain sites for at least a couple years now, and, no... she isn't what I consider attractive. I'm not going to go into a rage, however, because she simply exists. Don't get me wrong, I'm looking for a strong, good example of a well done female character who isn't sexualized more than anyone here, I guarantee it, and most of the characters I've created, for game concepts I'm too lazy to put an alpha up of (regardless of how beneficial it may be) in UDK, satisfy that craving. As much as I'd like to see better examples of female characters, this character, in particular... doesn't piss me off, and it shouldn't piss you off. From what I can tell, she's not memorable, not worth your time, and exists for fanfare. There's nothing wrong with that. If the rest of the world wants to point this game and say 'this is why games r 4 kidz look at how imatur they r' then fuck the rest of the world in its super tight sphincter with the biggest fist you can find, because when all is said and done, the only one who can decide whether or not you like something, is yourself, nobody else.

And if you really care what the rest of the world thinks, throw Bioshock at them or something. We have mature games, or at least, we have games that strive to be mature. There will always be a market for that. We also have immature games that wear silly hats and like to draw large, cartoonish boobs on everything. There's a market for that, too.

Twinmill5000:

In the words of a random female Castanic from another game that stirred up at least just as much controversy over boobs and the portrayal of women: If you don't like it, leave.

That's really all there is to it. They can design the characters they want, and make the games they want and... you, you can choose not to buy the game if it offends you that much

So what are you still doing in this thread that you don't like?

The problem with criticising compaints about offensive content for what they are, is that it's an obvious "I'm rubber you're glue" situation. Every complaint that you can make about how people shouldn't complain, sticks to you. By your own logic, if you don't like feminist arguments, you are free to not listen to them.

Ironically, this is what the OP article actually *is* about, how discussions like this will never end in a society with freedom of speech. People won't just "leave" because someone else is not as offeneded about the game as they are.

They can post the complaints that they want, abd make the articles they want and... you, you can choose not to click on them if it offends you that much.

Except that you also have a right to express your opinion that they should leave, just as they have a righ to express their opinion that Dragon's Crown should leave.

Twinmill5000:
Please tell me I'm not in the minority here when I say: who gives a shit?

I give a semi-trailer's worth of shit, purely because Kamitani's still getting attacked by Schreier and his suckups even after Kamitani apologized. Sorry, but that's the kind of act that warrants another eye-for-an-eye treatment, and I will not stop my utter scorn for filth like him until he finally accepts Kamitani's apology, which was, in the first place, issued after a lot of pressure from half the fucking internet.

God forbid Kamitani goes even further with his apology and outright omitting the Sorceress in the release build.

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