It Never Ends

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Paradoxrifts:

Mahoshonen:
Yeah, and everyone should have paid no attention to Triuph of the Will because it was nothing but a collection of film strips that no one had to watch.

(Yeah I know, Godwin's Law. But I feel these threads are so stupid that they deserve it)

Father Time:
And this is why we have Godwin's Law. You just compared scantily clad women to Nazis. The fictional characters are not trying to convey any message or morals, they're just scantily clad and you compare them to Nazis.

image

What about scantily clad Nazis?

My god the scantily clad women suddenly make me want to join the Nazis. If only the awesome power of cleavage and legs were used for good and not evil /s

Trying to keep this short and to the point:

The problem isn't the Sorceress' design. The problem isn't that she exists or that characters like her exist. The problem isn't even that female characters are portrayed as sexually appealing. The problem is the pervasive trend which this character design is an example of, which is to treat women as ONLY sex objects.

There would not be any problem with characters like this at all (not even as part of a trend) if they were only ever enjoyed as silly little indulgences on the side, with the full understanding of what it was you were indulging in.

The problem is that we're not at that level of maturity yet. We have a serious sexism problem in the game industry. Many of our games depict women as object. Passive characters, existing generally for the support of the male lead and often with implied sexual thematic.

The problem in this instance is that characters like this, in today's game culture, tend to reinforce that trend. The problem is NOT liking sex or sexy characters. The problem is NOT that you or anyone else finds this kind of design appealing, sexually or not and the solution is NOT to censor or ban games or characters like this.

The solution is to grow up as a culture, admit that we have a problem, and start seeing women as people rather than as a collection of sexual attributes, then to act accordingly.

I just view how sexualized the female characters are, and that's what I judge if a game is worth my time. Over sexualized and it means that the game is relying on that and thus the chances are the game is crap. If they're more modest the better the game is.

I hate hate haaaaate it when people say "can we please stop talking about X and go back to talking about "games". Makes my blood boil that kind of nonsensical lazy idiotic attitude. It's the fastest way to directly destroy the potential of the entire medium of games and because so many people depressingly share this mentality we are still seeing so little progress, so little change at such a slow rate across the industry.

One day I'd like to live in a world where a game staring a female lead who isn't just vapid eye candy exists that has a big budget and actually sells a tonne of copies on a regular basis. The new Tomb Raider was quite decent in this regard but that's what, 1 game of lets say the 4 or 5 from the past 20 years? compared to letsee maybe somewhere between 1 and 3 hundred games staring males over the same time period?

And yet their are people in the world who think this isn't a problem... Talk about burying your head in the sand. yeesh

I'm as much a red blooded hetro male as the next, boobs n all that are great but god damn what I would give to get some variety from my games. Even playing the last mortal kombat recently again I am still wondering "really guys did every female in this need double Ds, a micro waist and a third of an outfit? its not just a matter of desiring diversity, the whole super sexualized female game character trope is just so over done and lazy now. Theirs nothing to be gained from it being so over used anymore, its been done enough, why aren't most people just arguing for different things to this simply to have them? Absolute madness not too at this stage imo.

I loathe all Internet bandwagons based around group Y wanting to stop group X from enjoying something. Just let group X enjoy whatever rubbish they fawn over. If they are being obnoxious about it then you can tell them to go fornicate themselves.

Making a big deal about peoples escapism is just stupid and childish when there are real world problems tearing the world asunder everywhere.

Entitled:
-snip-

Oh, gee, that isn't an obvious point at all. You're damn right about one thing. I don't like that people don't like that people don't like that people don't like that people don't like something. So, by your logic, why don't I leave?

The answer's quite simple, really.

In my first post, I mentioned something about making an impact? But here's where you're... what's the opposite of right again. Right. Wrong.

See, I'm a huge advocate for freedom of speech, but really, when I say 'free speech', I mean freedom of expression. You may want things you don't agree with thrown into obscurity and never to be mentioned, or ultimately, nonexistent. Your post oozes with this point. I want the opposite. I want a world where nothing is considered obscure, only niche, at worst, and thus, while I have the right to post what I want, and create what I want, you have the right to leave.

In terms you can understand: Complaining is not your only option. You have far more, and while I tried to convey the message that you can make an impact in more ways than one, you obviously didn't get it. So here, let me spell it out for you. You can either write me back, and have the short term justification of 'putting me in my place', which, let's be honest, if you're going to look back on this a year from now and go 'man I'm sure glad I put Twinmill5000 in his place', then you're sad and I no longer wish to speak with you, not that I'm implying I ever did, or you can just, ignore me.

But, that won't make my contributions to this thread go away, as I still find some desire to do so. Funny how that works, eh?

Mahoshonen:

Maxtro:
Every character in Dragons Crown is drawn with absurd levels of exaggeration. So what if one of the characters has large breasts?!

Western society is too prudish.

If you don't like the look of a character, then don't play as her, or simply don't buy the game at all.

So if I make a game that has a blackface character with a massive afro, fights by throwing watermelons, and heals himself by eating fried chicken, I am excused from all criticism because it's 'ironic?' I'll be sure to let David Duke know this.

if every other characters is a harmful stereotype you can hardly call that game out for picking on a particular group. You can't just have the one exception, then that would be offensive .

Twinmill5000:
Please tell me I'm not in the minority here when I say: who gives a shit?

I didn't till Kotaku brought it up, it took me hours to figure out what pissed me off about the first follow up article :P

Twinmill5000:

See, I'm a huge advocate for freedom of speech, but really, when I say 'free speech', I mean freedom of expression. You may want things you don't agree with thrown into obscurity and never to be mentioned, or ultimately, nonexistent. Your post oozes with this point.

Yeah, could you point at the part of my post that "oozes of" wanting to make things nonexistent? Or for that matter, the part of the OP article that claimed anything like that?

Your "contributions to this thread" so far consist of a reflexive knee-jerk assumption that everyone who thinks that discussions of whether somehing offends us are just natural, and they won't go away, is really out to get you. If I'm not joining you in wanting to silence complaints, then obviously I must be agreeing with those complaints, including the most extreme ones of them that are crying for it's nonexistence.

If you don't want to read the whole article, then at least read the last paragraphs, and understand that all your "contributions to this thread" are just another example of muddying the waters by not accepting the basic fact that people WILL tell it when they are offended by something, and acting as if every and all critcism would be an all-out attack on your precious idea of diversity.

LazyAza:

I'm as much a red blooded hetro male as the next, boobs n all that are great but god damn what I would give to get some variety from my games. Even playing the last mortal kombat recently again I am still wondering "really guys did every female in this need double Ds, a micro waist and a third of an outfit? its not just a matter of desiring diversity, the whole super sexualized female game character trope is just so over done and lazy now. Theirs nothing to be gained from it being so over used anymore, its been done enough, why aren't most people just arguing for different things to this simply to have them? Absolute madness not too at this stage imo.

See this is what i find annoying, in Dragon's Crown's case it's, i won't say "exception" but it's an entirely new IP and has no sense of realism yet people have jumped on it without playing the game, looking at the other "grotesque" designs or attacked the artist but with MK who have been around for years has in their own way perpetuated this type of Page 3 girl bodies and no one or not enough people have said a damn thing about it.
I'm not saying Dragon's Crown should be exempt from criticism some of it's been fair but too much of it has missed the point or has been exceedingly vile

What's there to criticize. Geez it's really a bad thing when Political correctness means you can't have a good laugh at something. The design of the Sorc and just about every other Dragon Crown character design is meant to be a deliberate lampooning of an already existent trend. I mean did you take a look at the Knight and the Dwarf? They're just as comically idealized and over exaggerated as the Sorc. Seriously. If this sort of thing offends you, play another game. But don't ruin the joke for everyone, heck I know quite a few(6) that actually got a laugh out of the aforementioned vid so even women get the joke the artist was trying for.

As I said, look at the guys in that game, deer sweet jeebus the knight has a shoulder width that puts most roid raged space marines to sham and the dwarf's chest makes Conan look like he's not even trying. These characters are deliberately designed to be 'caricatures'; an amalgamation of all the tropes in fantasy art/games blown out of proportion.

What have we reached the era where all women must be portrayed as Olive Oyl or realistically? If I want to see realistic ladies I'll look out the window, If i want something unrealistic and entertaining, I play video games.

Just a Breakdown of the Tropes each one of the characters exploits.

Dwarf - Barechested ridonculously built muscle men (COnan, Zangief, Hulk)

Knight - Space Marines with Impossibly Broad shoulders (Do I need to even list these)

Sorc - Overly endowed busty fantasy babes. Jiggle Physics

Amazoness - Tough overly endowed tough gal with legs that should not be (Xena, Red Sonya, Psyloke, Chun-Li)

Mage - silver haired vaguely androgynous bishonen (COme on he even has the samehair colour and hair style as Sephiroth)

Elf - Lolicon. 'nuff said. Yeah the woman that's an adult but looks surprisingly 'young'.

So in effect every gender and trope has been touched on and lampooned in this. Which technically makes it perfectly anti-sexist. It's making fun of the guy and gal stereotypes. No reason for apology man and no justification for outrage, unles syou're the type of guy or gal that gets an inferiority complex from seeing cartoon-bodies better than yours In which case... I'm sorry but I hear there's a pil;l for that condition now. Look into it.

BigTuk:
-snip-

I pretty much agree with all of this.

Fappy:
I think this is your most important point:

The problem isn't, and has never been, that The Sorceress (or Ivy, or Cammy, or Lara, or Daphne, or whomever else) look like they do... it's that everything looks like they do.

A lot of the people on this site in particular have the notion that female gamers are always going to be upset when this kind of thing crops up. As someone who has had lengthy conversations with said female gamers on the subject I can attest to the fact that this is completely untrue... at least for the majority of female gamers. There is always going to be a market for sleazy character designs and that's okay. The reason female gamers are so upset is because, frankly, there aren't many games out their that don't objectify the female form.

Dragon's Crown may turn out to be a pretty cool game and I am not about to mock someone who's a fan of the character design, but is it so wrong for games like this to get criticized? If there isn't any dialogue in this regard we'll never see any progress. This game's just in the wrong place at the wrong time.

Actially, the truth is that as a general group "female gamers", which should be extended to "women in the fandoms" (Anime, PnP RPGs, Computer Games, Sci-Fi fantasy novels/television, etc...) aren't upset. Indeed these are exactly the kinds of characters created by and for women when you see material directed at them.

In general complaints about the objectification of women in fantasy come from two basic groups of people. One is guys who believe that the lack of women interested in them through their hobby can't be because of them or a minority of girls being interested in hardcore fantasy (being more into reality), so they look for a target like artwork or storylines objectifing women. Totally oblivious to the fact that women themselves create a lot of that stuff to begin with, and fantasy created by and directed at women tend to actually be "worse" in all of the aspects your lonely geek boy is trying to convince himself are responsible for his own lack of success with the opposite sex. The other group of people are "lib trolls" that is to say trolls that take a non-issue and try and rally liberal sheep into the attack to cause strife and chaos, basically by dropping an "ist" or "ism" tons of people on the left side of the spectrum will automatically go into attack mode, without really looking at the issue as a whole. This latter bit is pretty much the school that spawns people like Anita Sarkessian. Lib Trolls are by and large motivated by causing as much trouble as possible, keeping the fire going, and trying to find the biggest platforms they can from which to rally from.

Now there ARE exceptions to this, so before anyone says "but I'm not like that" or whatever, understand that there is an exception to everything. From an overall sociological type perspective though, this is the truth, and the driving force. The biggest problem in cases like this is when a a developer like the one doing "Dragon's Crown" apologizes, which pretty much validates what the trolls behind everything wanted, and simply encourages more of this in the future, as they will continue to herd their sheep to similar targets in the pursuit of future lulz.

In short, the biggest problem is not the artwork, but the fact that we're having dialogue about it, oblivious to the simple fact that such an utterly-gorgeous (if highly stylized) "Mary Sue" is more likely to be the stuff of a 14 year old girl's fantasy than one concocted by a boy (though it goes both ways). I mean seriously, sit down and read some fantasy created by women for women and you'll notice the protaganists are an awful lot like that sorceress physically. When you look at fan fiction, especially the sort that caused the term "Mary Sue" (which is female for a reason) to become commonly used you'll find truckloads of things that make this look tame, without a drop of testosterone
anywhere nearby.

Honestly, I think before anyone decides to make a comment about "feminism" or the "objectification of women in fantasy" that they should be forced to read at least a dozen or so fan fictions written by girls, and at least a similar number of fantasy series written by women largely for women. Starting with say "My Immortal" on the fan fiction front (the pain is part of the point), and things like Kim Harrison's "Hollows" series, Llith Saintcrow's work, or "Women Of The Otherworld" on the published fantasy side of things. Start by making note of the cover art. As odd as it sounds when a lot of these discussions get going, half the time in reading the responses I feel like I'm the only one who even has the grounding or experience to have a fair opinion here (which to be honest is grounded enough where it's pretty much solid fact at this point, which is why I'm making the referances). Nothing directed at you (the person I'm actually responding to) just in general. To be honest for all of his knowlege of geekdom, I can't help but wonder if MovieBob (who isn't speaking against this kind of imagery) himself has much familiarity with women's fantasy and paranormal romance, sometimes disparigingly called "Powder Puff Fantasy". I'd imagine if he did have his usual level of expertise with geek culture in response to that area, he'd be in agreement with me, at least on this subject.

It is my theory that the Sorceress's breasts are so large because her waist is too small to permit the usual number of internal organs to fit inside it, so as an evolutionary response, the remainder of her vitals have shifted upward to her tits. This has the not-inconsiderable side benefit of allowing me to imagine the look on some sweaty virgin's face as he reverently fondles her right boob and a hollow growl issues forth because her stomach is in there and he just squeezed a gas pocket out.

JimB:
It is my theory that the Sorceress's breasts are so large because her waist is too small to permit the usual number of internal organs to fit inside it, so as an evolutionary response, the remainder of her vitals have shifted upward to her tits. This has the not-inconsiderable side benefit of allowing me to imagine the look on some sweaty virgin's face as he reverently fondles her right boob and a hollow growl issues forth because her stomach is in there and he just squeezed a gas pocket out.

I've seen cartoon pornography, which featured a lesbian character with women-eating breasts.

It was fucked up.

Paradoxrifts:

Pogilrup:

Maxtro:
Every character in Dragons Crown is drawn with absurd levels of exaggeration. So what if one of the characters has large breasts?!

Western society is too prudish.

If you don't like the look of a character, then don't play as her, or simply don't buy the game at all.

Unfortunately, not looking at a fire doesn't extinguish it. The those that did blow the whistle on this game were probably concerned about how this work might influence works to perpetuate something we would preferably shove into the backrooms.

So then those people are guilty of betraying other gamers, and they are doing it to appease the ignorance of others. And I wouldn't stop to piss on them even if they were on fire. The enemy is those who would try to blame and shame everyone who enjoys an artistic medium because they find certain uses of that medium to be offensive.

From arch-conservatives to militant feminists, to the far-right to the far-left of the political spectrum, those who attempt to politicise gaming are no friends to any gamer who would like to play games free of censorship and repression.

Do you think exploitation films and airport fiction win accolades? Some of them might be appreciated decades later but not by the majority of the audience in its day.

Video games have been stuck at the level of such works in regards to portrayal of women for most of its existence. It is only recently that some games have made an effort to break the mold in those portrayals. So long as games with shallow eyecandy are popular with the masses, the medium will impeded in its effort to be taken seriously as an art form.

"Diversity"...that's really my only major complaint about the whole debacle.

(Well, that and the stupid pandering. I'll just put it this way: When I see balloon-animal-grade tits, or a waistline that needs to be made of spring-steel to be structurally and flexibly plausible, it doesn't turn me on. It makes me sigh.)

A fair number of my favorite game characters are female, and not because "lol, wank material".
But it's unlikely I will encounter many more because gaming is stuck in its own trappings.

It's not the existence of pandering-wank material and exploitation: it's the over-emphasis on it.
I am not offended by Dragon's Crown characters any more than I am of say, Soul Caliber or Ninja Gaiden.

*puts on pretentious-hipster sunglasses and fedora*

If gaming truly wants to prove it can be an artform, it needs to step back a bit, and examine other stories than that from the perspective of a grizzled 30-something heterosexual white male and his token minority best-buddy | or the young-adult teenager bishi-boy with his sexually awkward "squeaky-toy" girlfriend. (depending on market)

*takes off pretentious-hipster garb*

http://hokutoandy.kinja.com/interesting-analysis-of-the-art-i-dont-agree-with-some-479786991

Interesting tidbit on the whole debacle by a commenter on Kotaku. Now the first part that concerns the artist's response is its own can of worms, but I found the section describing the reasons behind the sorceress quite enlightening.

Someone just needs to make a male video game character whose performance and progress through the game is entirely measured by his masculinity and superficial sexual attractiveness. His only outfit is a speedo. Maybe later you get to unlock armor that covers his legs and arms but never his torso or groin. As he is damaged by enemies he loses muscle tone and/or genital size. Once he is reduced to a "small" man in all regards he dies (of embarrassment presumably).

How would any of you males out there feel if you saw your wife, girlfriend, sister, or girl you were crushing on playing this game? Chances are you wouldn't like it. Chances are you would be turned away by the apparent lack of respect for men and the issues men face. Chances are you would want to yell, "there is more to a man than the size of his junk and how well he can display it while doing completely NON-SEXUAL tasks!" ; or "That armor makes no sense!"

You would feel awkward walking into a room with a bunch of girls squealing and giggling over a man being reduced to "not-a-man" simply because he is losing the superficial qualities of a sexualized male.

Then and only then would you understand what female gamers and simply female witnesses to gaming have felt 1000's of times towards 1000's of games both new and old.

In case you were wondering, this is a male writing this.

Jarimir:
Someone just needs to make a male video game character whose performance and progress through the game is entirely measured by his masculinity and superficial sexual attractiveness. His only outfit is a speedo. Maybe later you get to unlock armor that covers his legs and arms but never his torso or groin. As he is damaged by enemies he loses muscle tone and/or genital size. Once he is reduced to a "small" man in all regards he dies (of embarrassment presumably).

How would any of you males out there feel if you saw your wife, girlfriend, sister, or girl you were crushing on playing this game? Chances are you wouldn't like it. Chances are you would be turned away by the apparent lack of respect for men and the issues men face. Chances are you would want to yell, "there is more to a man than the size of his junk and how well he can display it while doing completely NON-SEXUAL tasks!" ; or "That armor makes no sense!"

You would feel awkward walking into a room with a bunch of girls squealing and giggling over a man being reduced to "not-a-man" simply because he is losing the superficial qualities of a sexualized male.

Then and only then would you understand what female gamers and simply female witnesses to gaming have felt 1000's of times towards 1000's of games both new and old.

In case you were wondering, this is a male writing this.

Honestly? I wouldn't care. Just like how I didn't care about my girlfriend was watching Twilight movies where two men are reduced to fighting over a girl who is cold, uncaring, and manipulates their feelings to fulfill her own selfish needs. Not to mention constantly seeing Jacob's shirtless body, a type I acknowledge I'll probably never have. I just recognized it as a female fantasy, one that may not reflect real life, but does not need to. She gets to watch and read, and I don't have to partake in it.

There's controversy over the sorceress, but not the insane looking dwarf or over the top knight? I don't think the controversy with dragons crown has anything to do with the ONE sexualized character as much as the entire art style for the game.

Pogilrup:

Paradoxrifts:

Pogilrup:

Unfortunately, not looking at a fire doesn't extinguish it. The those that did blow the whistle on this game were probably concerned about how this work might influence works to perpetuate something we would preferably shove into the backrooms.

So then those people are guilty of betraying other gamers, and they are doing it to appease the ignorance of others. And I wouldn't stop to piss on them even if they were on fire. The enemy is those who would try to blame and shame everyone who enjoys an artistic medium because they find certain uses of that medium to be offensive.

From arch-conservatives to militant feminists, to the far-right to the far-left of the political spectrum, those who attempt to politicise gaming are no friends to any gamer who would like to play games free of censorship and repression.

Do you think exploitation films and airport fiction win accolades? Some of them might be appreciated decades later but not by the majority of the audience in its day.

Video games have been stuck at the level of such works in regards to portrayal of women for most of its existence. It is only recently that some games have made an effort to break the mold in those portrayals. So long as games with shallow eyecandy are popular with the masses, the medium will impeded in its effort to be taken seriously as an art form.

Which is akin to saying that romantic comedies are preventing Women from being taken seriously in dramatic roles, or that the availability of high-definition pornography somehow affected your enjoyment of Anne Hathaway's performance in Les MisÚrables, or The Dark Knight Rises. It's an unreasonable and irrational idea. People such as yourself should stop listening to and learn to ignore the twisted politically-driven newspeak of trolls of either side of the political fence.

Well if they absolutely HAVE to argue, they could at least argue in a mature manner instead of hurling insults at each other.

MovieBob:
It Never Ends

MovieBob discusses the recent Dragon's Crown controversy, and why we really need more diversity in our videogame characters.

Read Full Article

One of the underpinning problems of all of this is that the, "Oh will BOTH sides just shut up" crowd are, whether they like it or not, on the side of the status quo. Truthfully, I suspect more than a few of them know this. They're aware that they have no need to defeat the opposition in open debate. They simply have to deny them a seat at the negotiation table.

The idea of sweeping the conflict under the rug is itself an attack on those who want change. "I'm sick of hearing the argument, so just let's keep doing what we've been doing." It provides an avenue for the casually-sexist the defend their sexism without declaring it (thus allowing them the luxury of decrying it in others).

Paradoxrifts:

Pogilrup:

Paradoxrifts:

So then those people are guilty of betraying other gamers, and they are doing it to appease the ignorance of others. And I wouldn't stop to piss on them even if they were on fire. The enemy is those who would try to blame and shame everyone who enjoys an artistic medium because they find certain uses of that medium to be offensive.

From arch-conservatives to militant feminists, to the far-right to the far-left of the political spectrum, those who attempt to politicise gaming are no friends to any gamer who would like to play games free of censorship and repression.

Do you think exploitation films and airport fiction win accolades? Some of them might be appreciated decades later but not by the majority of the audience in its day.

Video games have been stuck at the level of such works in regards to portrayal of women for most of its existence. It is only recently that some games have made an effort to break the mold in those portrayals. So long as games with shallow eyecandy are popular with the masses, the medium will impeded in its effort to be taken seriously as an art form.

Which is akin to saying that romantic comedies are preventing Women from being taken seriously in dramatic roles, or that the availability of high-definition pornography somehow affected your enjoyment of Anne Hathaway's performance in Les MisÚrables, or The Dark Knight Rises. It's an unreasonable and irrational idea. People such as yourself should stop listening to and learn to ignore the twisted politically-driven newspeak of trolls of either side of the political fence.

Ok tell me what would be so bad about having the future hit games feature more anatomically possible women wearing more practical clothing and not having to do sexy poses every so often?

There will still be games featuring eyecandy at every turn, it is just that they would not be taken as seriously as the games that don't pander to such a base instinct.

I know you will say "You are in no position to judge whether or not the things I like are crap." I'm not sure how to respond to that.

Dastardly:

MovieBob:
It Never Ends

MovieBob discusses the recent Dragon's Crown controversy, and why we really need more diversity in our videogame characters.

Read Full Article

One of the underpinning problems of all of this is that the, "Oh will BOTH sides just shut up" crowd are, whether they like it or not, on the side of the status quo. Truthfully, I suspect more than a few of them know this. They're aware that they have no need to defeat the opposition in open debate. They simply have to deny them a seat at the negotiation table.

The idea of sweeping the conflict under the rug is itself an attack on those who want change. "I'm sick of hearing the argument, so just let's keep doing what we've been doing." It provides an avenue for the casually-sexist the defend their sexism without declaring it (thus allowing them the luxury of decrying it in others).

Exactly. Simply going "can we please just stop talking about this and go back to playing games?", helps no one.

As far as the "they are just huge breasts, what's the problem?" debate, it IS a problem. It is painting an unrealistic view of what women are supposed to be. It is as bad as having black people in a game always be the criminals, or seen eating fried chicken. Or seeing Hispanic people constantly in sombreros. It is sexism, and should be seen as just as important to get rid of as racism.

As far as censorship goes, it's not censorship, because censorship would be AFTER the product has been made and shipped. If the government censors something, they are censoring it after the fact. Like when that news anchor swore on TV (the one who lost his job after his FIRST day). They didn't censor him to start with. You can hear him in the original video just fine. They censored him AFTER the broadcast was done being made.

What this is is trying to convince people that this kind of objectification is wrong. If more game developers decide to make normal looking female characters, they are not being censored. They are willfully doing it. No one has a gun to their head forcing them to do it.

Plus, what would the effect on the game be? I mean, if we suddenly change to normal looking female characters, and not sexualized ones. Would the core gameplay change? Would the Sorceress as a character, in terms of her moves and how she plays, be ANY different? The answer is no. It would only be an aesthetic change (a physical one).

And honestly, if you are playing video games just to see women with huge fucking breasts bouncing around, I think you are looking at the wrong medium. There are many websites out there for porn. Go find them.

As the video game market becomes more diverse, and not just restricted to male gamers, we need to realize that our industry has, for a long time, been sexist. If we want to evolve, we can't hide our heads in the sand and pretend this doesn't exist. As Jim Sterling said in one of his episodes, "you can talk about the -isms in the industry without hating video games". If we want the public to take video games seriously as an art form, and get their respect, then THIS is something that needs to stop. Because shit like the Sorceress does NOT help our case.

And please, stop with the "stop trying to take our games away" bullshit. No one is taking your game away. Are you a two year old? Again, this would not be taking games away. It would be changing one particular aspect of the game. No one is trying to stop Dragon's Crown from being made. You'll still get your precious game.

Fappy:
Dragon's Crown may turn out to be a pretty cool game and I am not about to mock someone who's a fan of the character design, but is it so wrong for games like this to get criticized? If there isn't any dialogue in this regard we'll never see any progress. This game's just in the wrong place at the wrong time.

Though I agree that the industry is horrifically over-run with this character design and that this really needs to stop, Dragon's Crown is the absolute worst example of how we need to stop objectifying women in every game. Despite the fact that the artist is a bit of a douche, Dragon's Crown should be freely criticized but isn't serious in its representation. The art style is meant to be ridiculous, it's meant to be cartoonish, and if a man sees the Sorceress and says "THAT is what a woman should look like!" That's something wrong with him, not the artist. Men in general won't find her attractive just like Women in general won't find the Fighter in Dragon's Crown attractive. They're ridiculous caricatures that are meant to be laughed at, not fapped to, just as the artist's insensitive gay-joke towards his critic was also ridiculous and not meant to be taken so harshly.

Representation in the gaming industry for women is awful. That's just fact. But Dragon's Crownis meant to be an exaggerated parody of the classic manga art-style, to yell at Dragon's Crown for having objectified characters is like yelling at Airplane! for making light of airborne disasters and post-traumatic stress disorder.

Johny_X2:
To be honest, I don't see the problem in sexualization. It's a comical, cartoonish and, above all, non-representative portrayal of a very specific woman in a very specific context. The character has been depicted in such an exaggerated fashion that there is very little sex appeal to be found there - what is there, however, is a certain comical value.

As long as it's consistent with the overall tone of the game (and given the picture of the three bearded guys in thongs, I think it is), I see no issue whatsoever.

Yes, I think I know where the people who are complaining are coming from. Representation of female characters in the medium has been a hot issue lately and I think that the movement toward more realistic female characters is a good thing. Given the context, however, I think that the massive comical boobs of the sorceress are appropriate.

They should work that into here character somewhere. How she struggles with how big her rockin bewbs are and sometimes she's not so proud of them

Daaaah Whoosh:
At this point, I really have to ask: if game characters were oversexualized for women instead of for men, then what would they look like?

A good listener made out of chocolate, who cums cash

Gunjester:
The art style is meant to be ridiculous, it's meant to be cartoonish, and if a man sees the Sorceress and says "THAT is what a woman should look like!" That's something wrong with him, not the artist.

I, at least, am not worried about what men think a woman should look like. I'm worried about what my six-year-old niece is learning she needs to look like.

Devil advocate: Unique silhouettes make allies and threats instantly identifiable. What if everyone looked the same in TF2?

JimB:

Gunjester:
The art style is meant to be ridiculous, it's meant to be cartoonish, and if a man sees the Sorceress and says "THAT is what a woman should look like!" That's something wrong with him, not the artist.

I, at least, am not worried about what men think a woman should look like. I'm worried about what my six-year-old niece is learning she needs to look like.

Your videos games are not suppose to raise your niece, your niece's parents are.

psijac:
Your videos games are not suppose to raise your niece; her parents are.

I'm not sure how to interpret this statement. Are you arguing that her parents are or should be or could be sufficient to the task of installing bone-deep self-image beliefs that run contrary to what she sees in every video game, TV show, movie, magazine, and advertisement on a billboard or bus? That, in short, they should somehow overpower the influence of the entire world? Or am I misreading you?

Almost all media should be consumed with parental guidance, if not that Parent need to be at least aware for that their children are putting into their brain box.

By your logic if your niece has played with a barbie doll or watched who framed Roger Rabbit then she is already forever ruined

If her parents wanted to raise a girl divorced from the idea of female sexuality a Muslim Country. I am sure their women there don't have any problems with body image.

RaikuFA:

grigjd3:

The difference is in quality. Starcraft is generally an excellently made game (if completely lacking in innovation in the sequels). I mean, Skyrim on the PC often gets converted to an effective porn sim and yet no one complains about some of the characterizations done there either (note a certain red-head werewolf in the fighter's guild). The truth is, people don't mind hyper-sexualized characters nearly as much as they may seem to. What people really don't like is mediocre and poor games using hyper-sexualized characters as a crutch to up their sales. This problem would go away if people refused to play bad games. On the other hand, many game developers make bad games before they make good games so sometimes it pays to support even the bad games on the idea that the risk could lead to something really good.

So you've played it? A sexy character or two automatically means its bad? Logic at its finest.

So you've read the rest of the conversation you're jumping into? Oh, wait, you didn't because if you did you'd specifically realize that I later say that I have no idea how good this game is. Your real problem not being with me or what I have said but being that you are simply internet-rage obsessed and don't bother to use the reading skills you were taught in school.

Now since we are simply making assumptions about each other and each other's positions, let me make some assumptions about you. You are so scared that people don't like you that you throw a fit every time someone gives the slightest hint of disliking something you like. You crave external validation so much, that you hunt through forums desperately searching for that reinforcement and you've become so desperate for it that you throw a hissy-fit if you see comments that are anything else than praising your thoughts and ideas. The sad thing is, the only reason you are so desperate for that validation is that you haven't learned any self-confidence. If you had some self-confidence, you might be able to separate a comment on society (which you misinterpreted in the first place) from your own self worth.

As it is, you seem stuck on some sort of identification process that connects you personally to people's thoughts of this game. At any rate, it's not worth it. There is nothing for you to prove to me or for this game to prove to me. My opinion of the game, of you, or even of your ideas has absolutely no bearing on you, the world or what fate holds in store for anyone. I'd suggest you give up on your self-appointed holy quest to defend pseudo-chauvinist imagery because it does you and no-one else any good, but you've probably already stopped reading and are writing some rage based response where you suggest some attribute to me that you believe is an insult but won't have any meaning to me what so ever. However, I appreciate the chance to confirm my belief that no matter what lengths you go to, the internet will always respond with poorly thought out rage. Good job assuring that this process continues.

Therumancer:

Honestly, I think before anyone decides to make a comment about "feminism" or the "objectification of women in fantasy" that they should be forced to read at least a dozen or so fan fictions written by girls, and at least a similar number of fantasy series written by women largely for women. Starting with say "My Immortal" on the fan fiction front (the pain is part of the point), and things like Kim Harrison's "Hollows" series, Llith Saintcrow's work, or "Women Of The Otherworld" on the published fantasy side of things. Start by making note of the cover art. As odd as it sounds when a lot of these discussions get going, half the time in reading the responses I feel like I'm the only one who even has the grounding or experience to have a fair opinion here (which to be honest is grounded enough where it's pretty much solid fact at this point, which is why I'm making the referances). Nothing directed at you (the person I'm actually responding to) just in general. To be honest for all of his knowlege of geekdom, I can't help but wonder if MovieBob (who isn't speaking against this kind of imagery) himself has much familiarity with women's fantasy and paranormal romance, sometimes disparigingly called "Powder Puff Fantasy". I'd imagine if he did have his usual level of expertise with geek culture in response to that area, he'd be in agreement with me, at least on this subject.

I agree with you, read enough fanfics to know that.

Somehow people completely ignore this and seem to simply want their beliefs seen as facts and that other beliefs should not exist. Feminists have caused this, through all there whining and complaining to turn this simple character design, into "controversial news", yet no male character would cause a similar case of news (Unless it was Hitler or something like that).

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