Jimquisition: Boob Wars and Dragon Crowns

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Boob Wars and Dragon Crowns

Dragon's Crown has become the latest game involved in a big argument. Big boobs, burly dwarves, and Kotaku were all involved.

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Thank god for Jim... this is EXACTLY the kind of thing I wish more people did. Discuss things and go into a conversation willing to learn something at the very least.

Women have never been something that inspires rational thought in men.
Also: Boob Wars sounds like a game I'd like to play.

The constant fights on all the various issues on the web, not just the sexism in games or even just issues in games, reminds me of the Forming, Storming, Norming, etc stages of group development. I wonder if the internet is by its very nature such a hot bed of bile because the entire world simply cannot get all past the storming stage at the same time.

DVS BSTrD:
Also: Boob Wars sounds like a game I'd like to play.

There was a game called Space C*** for the Mattel Intellivision.

I couldn't agree more, thanks for the video Jim. I DO feel limited as far as rpgs and mmos are concerned. Guild Wars 2 female spellcasters looked like strippers and TERA was obvious enough. Both solid games but I just had to put them down.

I guess I will open a discussion because I am totally ignorant on the subject.

I keep on hearing about how character designs like the Tittymancer in Dragons Crown and other exaggerated designed females are a problem but I have yet to hear why they are a problem. I get a lot of "because sexism" answers but it doesn't answer my question.

DVS BSTrD:

Also: Boob Wars sounds like a game I'd like to play.

There actually IS a game called Boob Wars. It's about how rape is a noble act that saves the world.

It's unpleasant.

But that's the point, there are people on both sides who are incapable of discussing things reasonably. I can think of at least 10 people off of the top of my head on here alone who go into every single sexism thread and make sweeping generalisations about the "other side", and then when they get called out on it, they accuse anybody who disagrees as being a "part of the problem".

Or there are those who try and make valid points, but make them fail by exaggerating to ridiculous degrees, claiming that all feminists are nit-picking, or that no games have normal women in them. Their points don't get taken seriously due to their poor wording, and they then play the victim card.

There are also several users who I have never seen post anything aggressive, rude, condescending or otherwise objectionable be lumped in with the same people who are causing the arguments in the first place, either being called misogynists, or femi-nazi's despite clearly being neither. This leads to almost every single thread resulting in the same exact problems.

Then of course there are the people who shoot down any attempt of discussion before it has even started. Go into almost any sexism or gender related thread and you will normally see half a dozen "Inb4 the neckbeard misogynists" or "Oh great, now the femi-nazi's will find something else to complain about" before any actual responses are made.

Or to put it another way, remove the extremists from either side, and a discussion can be had, but that's not going to happen any time soon. Even more so when those extremists seem to have convinced themselves that are not.

Although as you put so well, we can't even discuss what platform people should play their games on without petty insults, so it's not really surprising that things are the way they are.

Toilet:
I guess I will open a discussion because I am totally ignorant on the subject.

I keep on hearing about how character designs like the Tittymancer in Dragons Crown and other exaggerated designed females are a problem but I have yet to hear why they are a problem. I get a lot of "because sexism" answers but it doesn't answer my question.

The argument is that it objectifies women and reduces them to nothing more than sexual fantasies. There are also those that argue that it affects the perception of women in real life. As well as people who say it makes them uncomfortable that there are not many normal women to play as so they have to play as overly-sexual characters instead.

Personally I think the first one is very much a case-by-case basis. Games where the women are literally nothing more than T+A as far as design is concerned are a problem (Rachel Ninja Gaiden 2), but I don't see the problem when they actually have decent character design as well. If they are good characters as well as being sexy then they are not "reduced" to anything.

The second point I don't think is even worth responding to normally, as I view it as the exact same argument as claiming violent media causes real life violence.

The third one I completely agree with, and I dislike games where the male characters are properly outfitted and proportioned, whereas the women are wearing bikini chainmail for no apparent reason.

Then again, I am also fairly desensitised to this kind of thing, so when I see skimpy outfits I more or less blank them. People kept on talking about Elizabeth's dress in Bioshock Infinite having massive cleavage, but I didn't even notice until somebody mentioned it.

Thanks Jim! Communication is one of the greatest and most underutilized skills on the planet. What's great is when truly communicating, even when you both end up disagreeing with each-other, you are still both left with a greater respect for the others opinion.

The art style of this game is freaking beautiful. The elf is very cute and i'd wager that a fair few women might find the wizard rather dashing, still, I really like the Sorcerous and don't think any ill will was intended.

I do understand the need for more variety concerning female gamers, this could be said about most mediums. Stull like just making them as capable as the fellas would be a good start... im looking at you Shounen manga, WHY YOUR LADIES SO USELESS!? (I understand there are capable women in shounen manga, its just a very one sided fight).

The flame war over Dragon's Crown confused me a bit at first; sure, the women were ridiculously proportioned, but so were the men. I figured that was what they were going for. Super-stylized, over-the-top, beyond the pale to a point where it barely mattered to the gender discussion because it was too extreme to be compared

Then a few days ago, I took a step back & I saw what Jim saw: Insult, gay joke, trolling on all sides.

It did make me wonder though, why wasn't there this outrage of Bayonetta? A few eyebrows were raised, but everyone seemed to accept it
Why? What made her different?
Is it because she was a bad-ass? That'd be a legitimate argument; she's an independent character of incredible power, she'll dress how she wants.

I'm still rolling this one around in my head to find the X factor

There are a few rational discussions.. they are just surrounded by brick walls and flames from both sides resulting in them eventually catching fire or leaving after a few posts

Personally, I couldn't tell it was a satire because I've seen anime and game characters with breasts that huge who were being played totally straight, so nothing about it came off as satirical to me. There's a point where the reality has become so ridiculous it's impossible to satirize.

And I still want to know why that dancing wizard mouse isn't a playable character.

Great episode and one anyone diving into a gender debate needs to hear. Plus the jab at the console wars got a chuckle from me.

th3dark3rsh33p:
Thank god for Jim... this is EXACTLY the kind of thing I wish more people did. Discuss things and go into a conversation willing to learn something at the very least.

Agreed and as usual a good show, it seems obvious but I hope this reaches the people that don't ever discuss things beyond initial outrage and insults. Fingers crossed.

I think a lot of people could benefit from discussion, but it's so hard to get going.
It's all either `I see something wrong with this and always will` or `I don't see anything wrong with this and never will`.
Trying to be civil gets hard under those circumstances but we should always try.
It's easy to see why people get upset on both sides, but that doesn't make for good discussion.

It's at the point where most people will bail out of these threads within the first couple of pages before it all blows up.

The problem here, Jim, is that you portray this as an "both sides are equally wrong" deal, then go on to point out (I think rather correctly) that a key problem lies in the willingness to fling poo at anyone who indicates their might be a problem in the games industry. Keep in mind we've had civil statements from publishers and developers who seek more diversity, only to have them shouted down like they just played "Anita Sarkeesian Mad Libs."

I'm not sure civil discussion in this medium is possible. This is like a discussion between a normal person and a Truther. While normal people are flawed and prone to do bad things or make mistakes (depending on the person, situation, and po\int of view), the Truther argument is steeped in emotion, histrionics and deception. Everyone is either with you or a sheeple, much in the way of the gaming debates.

On the other hand, playing the blame game isn't exactly going to change that, but it still irks me to see false concessions.

Also, regarding the current controversy, I don't really care much about the Sorc. She's over-the-top, but the rest of the game's characters are not done in a pandering fashion. I think this is the wrong battle, quite frankly. I think the art is horrible, however.

Sadly, had I written a shorter reply, I could have finally had the first post in a Jimquisition thread. However, I felt this needed saying.

Here, here!

I'm honestly conflicted on Dragon Crown. I absolutely love George Katamari's artwork, and I loved both Muramasa and Odin Sphere. I'm even willing to admit taking a bit of guilty pleasure in hot chicks sexy armor. I don't think every game needs it, but when it fits and makes sense (mainly with a highly stylized art direction) I don't see it as a bad thing.

But here it just feels like too much, I don't see a character so much as a pair of huge wobbling tits, and that honestly makes me feel a little unconformable - and so I find myself torn here. I don't know ... maybe I'm just getting tired of it.

My comments to your videos are always so bland because you cover all your bases and have good points I agree with. But I still want to show you support, so thank god for you, Jim.

Personally, I think that like the elf ranger, the sorceress represents George's talents and vision working at their best as well.

There's a nice little info sheet that takes a proper look at why he does it with his necromancers. I'll try to find it.

User JemothSkarii found it (or perhaps authored it). It's in the other Dragon's Crown thread. Minor NSFW, perhaps. Fertility statues.

The exaggeration of life-giving or life-nurturing assets, which unavoidably also sexualizes a character I accept, is part of a pattern with this guy's necromancers. In Dragon's Crown, that exaggeration is taken to a further-than-normal extreme because that's Dragon Crown's style.

If you still find it objectionable Jim, that's fine. But I think it's interesting- more interesting than a dessicated old man- and quite clever, actually.

There should be less of the all-the-same, I agree. But if this game had been the one to get that ball rolling, I don't think I'd have liked it as much.

The saddest thing about this debate (and nearly every other debate on the internet) is that mudslinging and comparisons to Hitler are almost certainly going to happen, mainly due to the nature of the internet at large. The worst part is that I don't think it can be fixed without destroying the nature of the internet, as the current way things are done has in part caused this bullshit. Even when something like Facebook is used to remove the anonymity and the same result still happens, this is probably not going away any time soon. Then again all media formats have become far more confrontational, and everyone has decided to stay in their pockets of culture, regardless of the format; leading to far too many interactions between any opposing views defaulting to argument, not discussion, usually about why your view is better.

Zombie_Moogle:

It did make me wonder though, why wasn't there this outrage of Bayonetta? A few eyebrows were raised, but everyone seemed to accept it
Why? What made her different?
Is it because she was a bad-ass? That'd be a legitimate argument; she's an independent character of incredible power, she'll dress how she wants.

I think another factor is Bayonetta was a bit more tastefully done. Despite being highly stylized she was fairly reasonably proportioned and she was sexy for reasons beyond having giant tits that bounce every which way in a light breeze.

In this case the character in question can pretty much be summed up as "Hey look! Tits!"

I am sorry, Jim, but this is just not going to happen.

No one is interested in discussion and conversation, those things are not worthy of attention.

Instead, lobbing insults and arguing from end to end is the norm, and it will not change because people just like to get themselves into a lather instead of getting anything properly talked about.

It's why I scarce make a thread these days, or even try to reply to most I see. I barely see anyone interested in it. Why bother?

I'll just keep watching your contributions. They do a lot more to advance the issue than a hundred threads in these forums and beyond.

On a side note: Replaying BG&E for the 50th fucking time still is really fun. *clocked in 81st replay*

Good video, Jim. Really good but I still can't thank god for you. not that you aren't awesome but I'll start thanking him when he makes people start listening to you >:C

People in general will have to grow more intellectually honest and secure before productive discussions about anything can become a norm, and I'm not so sure what the chances of that are. Still, can't go wrong with trying to reinforce that notion, so decent episode. Liked the bit at the end where you talk about rationality and calmness while brandishing an axe, lol.

The problem is that it's not just opposing opinions but conflicting ideologies. Ideologies that aren't opposite but are brought into conflict because they have different priorities. It's not going to end until we can all think the same way, or until one side admits they were wrong. Both are about as likely.

DVS BSTrD:
Women have never been something that inspires rational thought in men.

Nor has gaming.

Zombie_Moogle:
The flame war over Dragon's Crown confused me a bit at first; sure, the women were ridiculously proportioned, but so were the men. I figured that was what they were going for. Super-stylized, over-the-top, beyond the pale to a point where it barely mattered to the gender discussion because it was too extreme to be compared

More to the point, the other over-the-top female character isn't exactly stylised as "sexy."

I do think this is an odd place to take a stand, because it's more a single character. Though as I said before, I find the art in this game to be bad bad bad bad overall bad. So I'm not really defending the art as good, just saying it doesn't strike me as though it's endemic.

On the other hand, the fact that it's pretty much everywhere does leave this with potential back-braking-straw issues.

Then a few days ago, I took a step back & I saw what Jim saw: Insult, gay joke, trolling on all sides.

The funny thing about this is the artist was accused of being a 14 year old, and then he responded in stereotypical 14 year old boy form.

It did make me wonder though, why wasn't there this outrage of Bayonetta? A few eyebrows were raised, but everyone seemed to accept it

There really was, though. The defenses were kind of the same, too. It's satire. Women like it. It's really empowering. Guys go shirtless all the time, SAME THING.

Phasmal:

It's all either `I see something wrong with this and always will`

I really want to see this in action, because it looks like false contrition to centrism to me.

An excellent point Jim. Perhaps a sensible discussion can be had and I think eventually we will get there.

Jimothy Sterling:

DVS BSTrD:

Also: Boob Wars sounds like a game I'd like to play.

There actually IS a game called Boob Wars. It's about how rape is a noble act that saves the world.

It's unpleasant.

I had thankfully forgotten about that game existing until now. Now I need to shower.

Jimothy Sterling:

DVS BSTrD:

Also: Boob Wars sounds like a game I'd like to play.

There actually IS a game called Boob Wars. It's about how rape is a noble act that saves the world.

It's unpleasant.

Making a game called Boob Wars unpleasant...

THAT my friend is a crime for which we should reinstitute hanging, drawing and quartering. And not necessarily in that order.

An important thing to consider about the artistic style of the game is the game-play impact of character design. The background footage of Dragon's Crown that Jim showed clearly demonstrates that the game can be very distracting. Most of the discussion was centered on do you like or dislike the character design. Part of the reasons the characters are so over-exaggerated is to make them noticeable and identifiable at a glance during combat.

This whole event reminded me the Game Of Thrones Gorge Bush's head thing. The Sorceress design was shown in the announcement trailer released around the time of the PS VITA announcement. Vanillaware fans already knew of the game and the character designs.

Totally playing as the Sorceress, Probably just eek my wife. I stated my stance on this debate on Destructoid.

The glory of art is in its ability to offend. If all art appealed to all audiences, we'd have mud, Disney films, and Toyotas.

The other problem is that any time someone tries to HAVE a simple discussion (*coughAnitacough*), the morons instantly turn it into an argument in an attempt to shout down dissenting voices.

Zachary Amaranth:

Phasmal:

It's all either `I see something wrong with this and always will`

I really want to see this in action, because it looks like false contrition to centrism to me.

I think you may have misunderstood me. My fault, I'm terrible at getting points across.
I meant, the argument is usually `Games need to change` vs `Games need to not change`. And the people on either side are usually not going to change their mind.

I revised this comment because it was beside the point of the video:
Calm talks and discussion: YAY.
RadFems vs. MRAs: NAY.
And while I am thoroughly disappointed by my local feminist chapter for precicely the unwillingness to debate things calmly (and other stuff), I DO AGREE that the depiction of women in games is still a problem.
Not only that, I feel like these designs are lazy, cowardly, and insulting cop-outs. These companies, these artists get my money to design characters. But every female character somehow manages to have the same three attributes: big boobs, big-ass ass, and a hip-section so slender that even a wasp would have trouble breathing.
It's lazy to copy these attributes onto every female character, it's cowardly, because it's basically playing it safe, following a market study, drawing based on numbers, and it's insulting, because the viewer is held to be a horny 12-year-old with the intelligence of a monkey.
Manipulation, thou art not subtle.
Like, for fuck's sake, there is such a thing as R34 porn on the web. Artists don't have to pre-emptively draw porn versions of every female in the game - that's what the internet is for!

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