Jimquisition: Boob Wars and Dragon Crowns

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Red X:
The last Story and Xenoblade had pretty good female characters (Seiren is my favourite)

"A drop of water in a desert."
If you will pardon the pretense in that metaphor.

should it? I mean the world is funny where if know one says anything it's assumed everyone accepts the way things are.

Right out the gate, I cannot even express disgust with the topic without running into the "Silent Conformity" angle.
That is how touchy it is.

To be crystal clear: I am tired of the argumentation as it exists; where it goes nowhere or devolves into semantics and assumptions. More people are trolling with those threads than discussing the issue at hand.

And I am tired of it. It defeats the point of trying to engage in any sort of meaningful discussion when the gender card is the first thing on the table.

Kamitani's work I don't think should have sparked this whole "blargh" but at least it can bring up even more important examples.

Unfortunately I'm in a bit of a hurry right now, so I'll just ask:
Examples of what?

I like seeing these Jimquisition episodes, but I've never commented on them before. Well this ends now.

Jim, it takes a big man to admit he has made mistakes. I like your main message that productive discussion is something that's desirable, which is something I could learn from.

I try to be calm Jim I really do but some people just don't listen and that's frustrating.

As for the sorceress I didn't realise that she looked that way when she moved. That's...pretty bad. A character can be sexy and not sexualised.

As for those saying media doesn't have any effect on the way you view women, if a woman can get an eating disorder from being exposed to images like this (as someone bravely admitted earlier in this thread) it can psychologically effect men as well. Just saying.

Mm, in the unlikely event that I do end up playing Dragon's Crown (given the platforms its on) I would most likely end up playing the elf...

Red X:
It may be a Japanese style but it's still has western sensibilities.

And?

This (Japanese) game we're talking about is clearly (and explicitly) inspired to some degree by western fantasy artists. Like it or not, there is considerable cross-pollination between Western and Japanese art styles and in both cases there is considerable difference between characters who are meant to be attractive and characters who are meant to give the impression of physical strength or prowess.

And regardless, the point remains.. When you post a picture of a bunch of naked dwarves which you drew for your Japanese game and suggest they're closer to someone else's "direction" than a couple of female characters which you also drew for your Japanese game using the exact same art style and the exact same influences, in what way can this possibly be read as a comment on the differences between national aesthetic standards. All these characters come from exactly the same source, exactly the same culture, exactly the same aesthetic standards, exactly the same person. The only difference is that one is a half-naked woman and the other is a half naked dude (or three).

Read the apology.. seriously.. it's quite informative. Apparently, he was only getting requests for publicity images of the female characters, including blatant fan service images like female characters in swimwear so he drew a picture of sweaty dwarves in bathing suits to express cynicism at the fact that retailers were only requesting pictures of the female characters.

..incidentally, this is merely an aside, but pause at this point.

Go look at the concept art of the female characters in question and keep the above statement in mind..

Anyway, apparently he was going to post his sexy dwarf picture on facebook for the benefit of fans, but then thought about Jason Schreier's article and decided to make a "lighthearted joke", which turned out to reference Schreier's implied preference for the images over the images of women which he had also drawn.

Seriously.. join the dots.

In the beginning of the last onscreen appearance of Jim in this episode i really got the feeling there was some mad feminist pointing a gun at him from off-camera. "I didn't know I was wrong, but then they educated me, and now I know I was a horrible person. Now I have fully embraced the [insert ideology here]'s agenda, and that has made me a better man."

Also - no less oversexualized silly women, just more plain realistic ones. Everyone wins.

GAunderrated:

Ernil Menegil:
I am sorry, Jim, but this is just not going to happen.

No one is interested in discussion and conversation, those things are not worthy of attention.

Instead, lobbing insults and arguing from end to end is the norm, and it will not change because people just like to get themselves into a lather instead of getting anything properly talked about.

It's why I scarce make a thread these days, or even try to reply to most I see. I barely see anyone interested in it. Why bother?

I'll just keep watching your contributions. They do a lot more to advance the issue than a hundred threads in these forums and beyond.

You took the words right out of my mouth verbatim. Truth is not just in the gaming industry but also in academic, scientific, religious, and political debates very few people are interested in discussion.

Everything eventually comes down to generalizations, red herrings, slander, and shouting. No one learns anything, the discussion itself becomes moot compared to the mudslinging, and nothing has changed.

It is why I only really look at certain videos and news articles on the Escapist because the user discussions very rarely have any real discussion.

I hope this trend of not discussing dies but I haven't seen any evidence contrary to what is currently going on.

This is usually how this type of "discussion" goes (this was from a few weeks ago).

There's a group of people that like something or want to discuss something rationally and calmly:

For instance with "Dragon's Crown", this character was revealed a long time ago and most fans of Vanillaware's games were happy with it, there was great anticipation and a shitload of fanart from both men and women surrounding the game.
This article for instance is from June 2011: http://www.examiner.com/article/the-sorceress-of-dragon-s-crown-inspires-hundreds-of-fan-made-illustrations

You can imagine this woman in the role of an utterly annoying Jason Schreier:

And then there's the general feminists screaming and flailing about how horrible everyone is for liking/enjoying or trying to discuss something that they don't approve of:

Of course, there will also be a group of people who insist on calling them out, for instance in this case Jason Schreier and telling them that they are fucking idiotic in return, and they also often go too far (these are often portrayed as the only "bad guys" in these kind of debates).

I find it funny that a """gaming journalist""" who posts an approximately 50-long word """article""" on a rag like Kotaku: http://kotaku.com/game-developers-really-need-to-stop-letting-teenage-boy-472724616 and in that alone manages to disrespect a developer and studio head in all manner of ways, from calling him a teenage boy, a 14-year-old (despite being in his mid 40's) and basically saying that he has no talent and "at least works cheap", as well as anything else that is being implied by that is called "starting a discussion" nowadays.

Boy, I should totally start more discussions on things.

I think there's an elephant in the room.

An important reason that rational discussion never works is that there is a small but extremely vocal minority of people that don't want it to work.

Misogyny has very few safe havens left. Through hard work and perseverance woman have managed to tear down most of the "no girls allowed" signs, and every club and golf course that went through it had to deal with these guys. While sexism has by no means been defeated, it has been forced into hiding on many fronts.

This is the process we as a community are going through now.

For a long time misogyny has found a safe haven in the gaming community; not because girls weren't allowed to join, but because for the most part they just didn't want to be a part of it.

That has changed. A whole generation has reached adulthood in the glow of video game consoles, and more and more girls are discovering that they actually want to join in the fun. As long as those girls were girls it was easy enough to keep them down. The shouting and bullying that predominates these discussions is a very effective tactic against children. But the NES is almost 30 years old now, and so are the girls that grew up with it.

Women are not so easily bullied as girls.

We will never be able to hold a rational discussion on this subject until we confront the reality that this is an important source, if not the primary source, of the toxicity that earmarks these flame wars. We need to accept that some members of this community, even older generally respected members, have no desire to see these women take their rightful place beside us as both gamers and developers, and we need to come to grips with the idea that this is NOT always an issue of "perception" or a "misunderstanding", but is often just a case of good old fashioned male-chauvinism trying desperately to cling to one of it's last safe refuges.

Once again people are pursuing the wrong target. There is nothing morally wrong with the mere existence of a sexually attractive character in a video game, even an exaggerated one. People who are attracted to her have a right to be attracted to her. That's their sexuality, and it's morally wrong to hate them for it. You don't choose what you're attracted to. And it's wrong to hate anybody for something they didn't choose, provided it's hurting nobody else.

And artists have a right to market to that sexuality. I thought this argument was already settled ages ago, that masturbation is not evil, and that puritan values towards sex are outdated and oppressive. You're supposed to explore your sexuality. You're supposed to exercise it, and indulge in things that make you horny. It's a natural urge, it doesn't make you a monster, and it doesn't make you sexist. But websites like The Escapist and Kotaku seem to hire "journalists" who have been unfrozen from the dark ages. "Oh how dare that woman expose a part of her body! It is impure! Stone her artist to death, for he is a sinner!"

The problem isn't that sexy characters EXIST, it's that they're so common, and not done evenly down the line. It's that there's not more variety. The issue shouldn't be "This one character is sexy! That's bad!" because it's not bad. The issue should be "Look at all these sexy characters across all these games. Why do all of these characters have to be sexy? Why not just half as many? And where are all the hunks and the pretty boys?" But this one witch character being sexy does not make the game sexist. This is just a writer leading a witch hunt (snrk!) because he didn't have anything better to write about.

And my fellow men, "feminazis" aren't at fault. I've had an argument with a feminist before. And I mean the kind of feminist who you knew right away was a feminist. She fit all of the stereotypes. And yet, when I had an actual debate with her, I found that her opinions were quite reasonable. I got her to admit that there is nothing morally wrong with the mere existence of sexy female characters, as long as society doesn't treat it like an obligation, as long as society doesn't act like it's the way things SHOULD be all the time. If you actually get to know your opponent and talk to them, you will often learn that their positions aren't as radical as you think. Sure, there are some feminists who flat out believe that sexiness is evil and that we should ban it all, but most of those types of feminists... are men. Men who call themselves feminists, but really just protest sexuality out of some misguided desire to "protect" women, ironically making them the most sexist out of all of us. Most real feminists don't want to put an end to all sexuality for good. Most real feminists just want equality, and to be treated not as a woman, but as a person.

Now, if anybody disagrees with the above, you are objectively wrong.

The above is verbatim what I posted on The Escapist's Facebook page about the subject, and people seemed to like it a lot so I decided to post it here as well.

defskyoen:

GAunderrated:
Everything eventually comes down to generalizations, red herrings, slander, and shouting. No one learns anything, the discussion itself becomes moot compared to the mudslinging, and nothing has changed.

This is usually how this type of "discussion" goes (this was from a few weeks ago).

There's a group of people that like something or want to discuss something rationally and calmly:

For instance with "Dragon's Crown", this character was revealed a long time ago and most fans of Vanillaware's games were happy with it, there was great anticipation and a shitload of fanart from both men and women surrounding the game.
This article for instance is from June 2011: http://www.examiner.com/article/the-sorceress-of-dragon-s-crown-inspires-hundreds-of-fan-made-illustrations

You can imagine this woman in the role of an utterly annoying Jason Schreier:

And then there's the general feminists screaming and flailing about how horrible everyone is for liking/enjoying or trying to discuss something that they don't approve of:

You seemed to have missed Gaunderrated's thing about generalizations, and how it's not a good thing. No one ever claimed that every feminist, or that every action taken in the name of feminism is an inherently positive thing, that'd be incredibly stupid. I'm of the opinion that the Sorceress is a juvenile character concept with a staff between her ass, and no amount of fanart with her fingers replacing her staff or it placed comfortably between her breasts will change that, but that doesn't mean I agree with these protestors or what they did, it doesn't inherently mean that I agree with anyone on anything other than that exact topic.

And let's not forget that it's incredibly disingenuous to compare "the sorceress was designed by a 14-year-old boy" to that woman's profanity and anger filled tirade. That article about the fanart wasn't really trying to discuss (or criticize) something so much as report on it.

I find it funny that a """gaming journalist""" who posts an approximately 50-long word """article""" on a rag like Kotaku: http://kotaku.com/game-developers-really-need-to-stop-letting-teenage-boy-472724616 and in that alone manages to disrespect a developer and studio head in all manner of ways, from calling him a teenage boy, a 14-year-old (despite being in his mid 40's) and basically saying that he has no talent and "at least works cheap", as well as anything else that is being implied by that is called "starting a discussion" nowadays.

Well a teenager and a fourteen year old boy are pretty much synonymous (all 14 year olds are teenagers but not all teenagers are 14), and I don't believe it really mattered how old Kamitani really is, the comment was about the maturity of the concept being that of a teenager, unless you want to take it literally. There was no mention of his talent as an artist and maybe the work cheap thing is about teenagers making minimum wage? I'm not really familiar with Kamitani's salary or Schreier's sense of humor to be sure.

Boy, I should totally start more discussions on things.

Before you start, you might want to stop misrepresenting people you disagree with for the sake of your argument, it makes you look a bit bad otherwise. Being respectful to them as well by not putting their titles in triple quotation marks while condemning them for insulting and criticizing members of the industry that you support would also help.

I would like to have a discussion with people like me, who fit into an 'other' category. A category of 'other' that is usually depicted in a certain... negative or laughable light in media and gaming and who is tired of hearing about just men vs women and ready to talk about wiping all stereotypes clean and doing the ultra hard task of just design... and not falling back on the easy crutches.

Until then, men keep saying that breasts and butts are fair game because male chests are sexy to women too, and women keep going about how you aren't just sex objects. When we're ready to open the discussion to include the problems with everyone, I want in.

Jim_Callahan:
Not that I _disagree_ that people on the internet should stop being jerks and discuss things rationally, but, um... an internet video series characterized by shouting repeated insults at people in most episodes is not perhaps the proper high horse from which to admonish people for responding rudely to things on the internet.

Yep. Additionally, if he wants to have a discussion, why doesn't he participate in the comments section? At most he will post a reply or two on the front page, but as we have seen from previous Jimquisition comment threads, he doesn't show any interest in engaging with other people, and only comments to either dismiss other points of view, or agree with his own.

Imperator_DK:

Fiairflair:
...
Why? Because no man is an island. The nature of exchange is inclusive and exchange directly influences those who produce. The values of an artist are proliferated by the success of any one game or film or show they create. They are enabled through profits to produce more works which in turn further promote their values. Hence, we have a marketplace of ideas. No market is truly free when only those who enjoy a product are given credence. Products are not purged by criticism. Criticism is the mechanism by which produces evolve. Those unable to evolve fail.


Assuming it's on target
.

Criticism without the aim to improve the particular product, but instead of replacing it with something else entirely, is worthless.

Pointlessly negative criticism is pointless. This is self-evident. However, not all criticism is either pointlessly negative on the one hand or constructive on the other.

I posit that it is essential that interested people discuss and debate the nature of games, films, and the like. The Sorceress from Dragon's Crown is an ideal example. Because of the portrayal of the Sorceress, and regardless of the intentions of the artist, many consumers may feel further isolated from the gaming market. If an artist holds the view that the objectification or overt sexualisation of women is okay, they will likely reflect that view in their work. If that work is successful, an argument is made for the promotion of material that in turn promotes the objectification or overt sexualisation of women. Rational discussion tempers that process; it allows for consumers and potential consumers to voice their preferences, which can then lead to the artist reviewing their work and changing their approach in the future. That said, there is another way to rid the market of questionable and offensive content. If a rational criticism makes readers less inclined to support the artist and that sentiment grows, the artist's work and its messages stop spreading. This is the harsher but just as effective method of ideas evolving.

A critic is not defined by the constructive nature of their criticisms but by the simple fact that they critique things. To critique something is nothing more or less than to judge that thing critically and make a critical assessment.

DrOswald:

1. This reasoning seems to be a blatant double standard. Why must it be true that all sexy female characters are objectification and all sexy male characters are power fantasies?

It's not.

But this particular case appears to be blatant objectification, regardless of gender. Because it's treating the characters literally as objects.

2. Lets say a studio were to make a game based around fulfilling a female power fantasy. Am I correct in assuming that the main character would be very sexy?

Depends on your definition of sexy, I guess. The characters in this particular game are hideous and completely unsexy to me. I'm not exactly sure what they were trying to achieve with such ridiculous proportions. But I guess there must be some people who are into boobs the size of basketballs that seem to have their own gravity field.

Toilet:

The argument is that it objectifies women and reduces them to nothing more than sexual fantasies. There are also those that argue that it affects the perception of women in real life. As well as people who say it makes them uncomfortable that there are not many normal women to play as so they have to play as overly-sexual characters instead.

Personally I think the first one is very much a case-by-case basis. Games where the women are literally nothing more than T+A as far as design is concerned are a problem (Rachel Ninja Gaiden 2), but I don't see the problem when they actually have decent character design as well. If they are good characters as well as being sexy then they are not "reduced" to anything.

There's nothing really wrong with a game pandering to someone's sexual fantasies. This kind of pandering is something that happens in all forms of media. We all like to knock on 50 Shades of Grey for portraying BDSM in a juvenile light (Heck, even the people who are really into BDSM are all like "Nope."). The fact is that there's really no real harm being done by 50 Shades of Grey. Let's ignore people with serious mental disabilities for a moment. If someone were to treat women as objects because of some skewed view of reality perpetuated by media, who is to blame for this? Really, the answer is weak education. Someone with such a skewed view on sexuality is only like that because they lacked the education or experience to know otherwise.

The second point I don't think is even worth responding to normally, as I view it as the exact same argument as claiming violent media causes real life violence.

Exactly right. It amazes me that so many people fail to make that connection. Once again, it's our responsibility to our younger generations to teach them that violence is wrong.

The third one I completely agree with, and I dislike games where the male characters are properly outfitted and proportioned, whereas the women are wearing bikini chainmail for no apparent reason.

Then again, I am also fairly desensitised to this kind of thing, so when I see skimpy outfits I more or less blank them. People kept on talking about Elizabeth's dress in Bioshock Infinite having massive cleavage, but I didn't even notice until somebody mentioned it.

While I don't mind games that pander to a male power fantasy in a world where the women dress in bikini armours, it would definitely be nice to have a greater number of games where the characters have a bit more depth than a puddle.

Now, if you really don't like T&A games, then you need to realize that big publishers and game developers are very resistant to change. They'll very rarely try something new. When they do try something new that ends up doing well, they'll milk it until we're all sick and tired of it, because they're just too afraid to fail. On a more positive note, we have seen more and more depth added to characters. While the new Lara Croft is most certainly sexualized to a degree, she's also a character that has depth. She's so much more than a walking pair of breasts and bosoms. We're slowly starting to see more characters that are more than just a showcase for jiggle physics. The best way to go about changing the industry's direction is to encourage the developers to give us more sensible and realistic characters.

So really, instead of discouraging T&A, why not encourage Brains and Personality? Don't get me wrong, you're definitely free to share your opinion on a game, but like Jim said, it's up to you to share it in a non antagonistic way.

Zachary Amaranth:

the December King:

The way I see it, is when you spend months and months working on something, and then a troll tells you you are a 14 year old boy, you can get pissed off whether you are a boy or girl. Did he do the right thing? I don't think so, it was feeding the troll. But I can see WHY he'd be upset by a thoughtless stab like that. And I wonder how I'd react in a similar situation...

More aptly, it was essentially proving him right.

But the thing is, a lot of artists deal with criticism in a more mature fashion. Not everyone is George Lucas.

Touche!

(However, it could be seen as a brilliant way to respond, too, as no average 14-year old could churn out a pic like that, and in doing so as an amusing snub, suggests that he was well aware of the irony. But again, I know no more on the actual events, it's just an observation in hindsight.)

Jimothy Sterling:
Boob Wars and Dragon Crowns

Dragon's Crown has become the latest game involved in a big argument. Big boobs, burly dwarves, and Kotaku were all involved.

Watch Video

So this is pretty irrelevant to any of the discussion, but I have to ask:

What's the source for the image you used at 3:12? It's a woman riding on a velociraptor-type thing and holding a flaming sword. Is that actually from a game or something? Because that image alone has me rather intrigued.

Gender issues - rolls eyes back in head and makes a noise that is not unlike a drawn out snort.

Dragon's Crown - thanks for the footage. Been looking forward to this game for the better part of a year. Vanillaware = Awesome.

Agayek:

Jimothy Sterling:
Boob Wars and Dragon Crowns

Dragon's Crown has become the latest game involved in a big argument. Big boobs, burly dwarves, and Kotaku were all involved.

Watch Video

So this is pretty irrelevant to any of the discussion, but I have to ask:

What's the source for the image you used at 3:12? It's a woman riding on a velociraptor-type thing and holding a flaming sword. Is that actually from a game or something? Because that image alone has me rather intrigued.

That game was the awful re-imagining of the Sega Genesis classic "Golden Axe" on the current systems.
image

http://www.metacritic.com/game/xbox-360/golden-axe-beast-rider

Agayek:

Jimothy Sterling:
Boob Wars and Dragon Crowns

Dragon's Crown has become the latest game involved in a big argument. Big boobs, burly dwarves, and Kotaku were all involved.

Watch Video

So this is pretty irrelevant to any of the discussion, but I have to ask:

What's the source for the image you used at 3:12? It's a woman riding on a velociraptor-type thing and holding a flaming sword. Is that actually from a game or something? Because that image alone has me rather intrigued.

Golden Axe: Beast Rider, but forget it. It's a mediocre game.

I'm impressed by this and the cull video you did. As a member of the female portion of this species, thanks!

Prosis:
And there's nothing wrong with games pandering to men. Nothing at all. The problem, however, is the lack of games which pander to women. The number of games with decent, interesting male characters (or at least a male protagonist) is pretty good, while the number of games with decent, interesting female characters that also lack jiggle physics is very low.

Do characters like the Sorceress need to be banned? No. Freedom of expression and all that. Could we use some more variety in the gaming industry, a few more games with female protagonists or interesting female characters? Definitely.

I utterly despise this argument, since I don't know where you people seem to be getting your numbers from, this is being stated over and over again as if it was some sort of undisputable fact/truth. (including in the preceeding video) It is also utterly ignoring the Social/Mobile/Casual market when doing such.

But even in the "main market", I just went through the last 100 Steam releases over the past few weeks and even went ahead and marked the games where you might have a point of starting some sort of discussion over it. (Leaving aside that nobody has to agree with said points and even among women there are those with a different taste, who very much enjoy games like these):
image
image

One is a game that has been dragged through the mud for daring to offer a bloodied torso in an optional Collector's Edition of the game for certain regions and has some ladies in bikinis in it: http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2013/04/25/the-silence-deep-silver-hiding-from-torsogate/
Another is a Re-Release of a game from 1996.
And the third is a Re-Release of an MMORPG from 2008 about effing Conan.

Is 3/100 (including two older games) some sort of horrible ratio, where everyone has to go up in flames worrying about the evils in the industry subjugating women? And if there are so many of these games out there, why is it that almost every example seems to involve Dead or Alive: Beach Volleyball or Soul Calibur in some way or other similar games from years ago?

Where are these utterly large amounts of games with boobs in them "only appealing to a certain audience" that are supposedly dominating the market and alienating everyone else you people keep bringing up hiding? I'd like to try and see some of them and possibly throw some of my money at them.
I've already played Age of Conan years ago, have had my fill of Duke Nukem 3D and played Dead Island through with 3 other people in CoOP, although I heard Riptide is even worse.

This is some sort of insidious accusation that seems to pop up over and over again, but doesn't really seem to have any basis in reality aside from every time a game *daring* to have some sort of cleavage or sexuality in it, there being another great media shitstorm (which I'm hoping is only leading to more game sales in return)...

It's also always easy to harp on against huge bodies/amorphous blobs of people like the "game industry" or "movie industry" or "music industry" to try and make some sort of abstract point since there isn't exactly anyone speaking for the whole of these industries that can defend them and you could basically be speaking about everyone or noone by talking about this ominous "game industry".

Now compare that with some of the newest movies in theater that try to sell over sexual appeal: http://www.moviefone.com/new-movie-releases (even from the movie posters alone) or some of the newest TV series with lots of sex scenes in them, and someone fucking explain to me how this is some sort of "huge problem in the gaming industry" that these sensationalist rags make it out to be in order to get their precious hits?

LifeCharacter:
Before you start, you might want to stop misrepresenting people you disagree with for the sake of your argument, it makes you look a bit bad otherwise. Being respectful to them as well by not putting their titles in triple quotation marks while condemning them for insulting and criticizing members of the industry that you support would also help.

I'm surprised you didn't say that they were just offering "criticism" to the lecture taking place, since your definition of what counts as "criticism" has been rather far-reaching in regards to the other article.

I can also acknowledge your opinion and tell you that I don't give much of a crap since I like it, especially this sort of 2D art style and would put down money for it. You are free to dislike many things as do I, but I seldomly go on whining about why they shouldn't exist or how they're going to contribute to the downfall of civilization simply because they don't appeal to me.

But I'm not really going to discuss this out with you, since you're just going to pretend that you didn't say anything ever in your life (maybe this is true, but you certainly typed an awful lot), which might point to either a short attention span or chronic forgetfulness.

defskyoen:

LifeCharacter:
Before you start, you might want to stop misrepresenting people you disagree with for the sake of your argument, it makes you look a bit bad otherwise. Being respectful to them as well by not putting their titles in triple quotation marks while condemning them for insulting and criticizing members of the industry that you support would also help.

I'm surprised you didn't say that they were just offering "criticism" to the lecture taking place, since your definition of what counts as "criticism" has been rather far-reaching in regards to the other article.

Well they are criticizing the lecture and the people lecturing and the people attending, but that doesn't mean they're right about anything. Did they offer reasons why they didn't like the lecture? If so, they criticized it. They might not have been accurate, but that doesn't mean they didn't offer criticism.

I can also acknowledge your opinion and tell you that I don't give much of a crap since I like it, especially this sort of 2D art style and would put down money for it.

I also acknowledge that you have an opinion and may very well enjoy the product. Not sure what that has to do with claims of the product being immature and whatnot, but there it is.

You are free to dislike many things as do I, but I seldomly go on whining about why they shouldn't exist or how they're going to contribute to the downfall of civilization.
But I'm not really going to discuss this out with you, since you're just going to pretend that you didn't say anything ever in your life (maybe this is true, but you certainly typed an awful lot), which might point to either a short attention span or chronic forgetfulness.

Quote where I said that Dragon's Crown shouldn't exist, or where I said it'll contribute to the fall of civilization. I said that I didn't like the character design of two of the three female characters, with the Sorceress getting the majority of my disdain, and that all of this might make people feel uncomfortable playing it, but I don't really recall saying or implying what you keep attributing to me.

So, help someone with chronic forgetfulness out; where exactly did I say any of the things you say I said.

AoshiShin:
People losing their minds over this, have they not seen queens blade or scarlet blade. I forget wich it is called =\

If no one else has said it already... those are two different franchises with similar themes. Queen's Blade is the fantasy version. Scarlet Blade is the Sci-Fi version.

It's not all bad. The character designs just happen to be what they are. The two franchises actually have some decent plot points going on (such as the tournament to determine the next queen of the land in the former and the massive war of the latter).

I'll admit when I first saw the Sorceress I was quite angry, mostly because it was a case of 'here we go again, another female character whom I want nothing to do with'. When I saw the rest of the designs, though, I took back my hate, because it was clearly a design choice. A bloody horrible one, but one nonetheless.

What got to me more was reading threads about the issue. People being shouted down for being feminists, and to 'get the f*** over it, it happens to men too', and that 'you're not allowed to be offended, everyone gets offended too easily.' The term feminazi really is a horrid one - is someone wanting female equality really in the same vein as a group widely known for attempting to kill an entire culture of people?

Games that should be discussed are ones like Scarlet Blade, where the characters are such obvious titillation that I actually get angry whenever I see ads for it. I keep begging for female characters, so why do you keep designing them for men instead of people like me?

Honestly, if you don't like it on any merit, then don't buy it. If not enough people don't buy it, then things will certainly change. However, I sense one particular thing will come into play...

The Streisand Effect

And thus, by whining and complaining about a game in such a way, it will be guaranteed that even more people will get the thing. And therefore more games will be made like this. It's really that simple.

I swear there's a different Jimquisition here somewhere...

- - - - -

And for those of you who insist on throwing monkey feces around and other douchebaggery, I have one thing you really need.

image

It's one size fits all, and there's plenty for everyone. And sometimes, I wish the mods would use it more often...

defskyoen:

image
image

C'mon, we know it's all or nothing with "feminists". Look at commercials, not once would you see women receive any kind of harm(without it getting banned), yet men are the brunt of slapstick all the time.

UrKnightErrant:
Through hard work and perseverance woman have managed to tear down most of the "no girls allowed" signs, and every club and golf course that went through it had to deal with these guys.

While women keep many "no boys allowed" signs up, not a ringing endorsement of "equality".

defskyoen:

GAunderrated:

Ernil Menegil:
I am sorry, Jim, but this is just not going to happen.

No one is interested in discussion and conversation, those things are not worthy of attention.

Instead, lobbing insults and arguing from end to end is the norm, and it will not change because people just like to get themselves into a lather instead of getting anything properly talked about.

It's why I scarce make a thread these days, or even try to reply to most I see. I barely see anyone interested in it. Why bother?

I'll just keep watching your contributions. They do a lot more to advance the issue than a hundred threads in these forums and beyond.

You took the words right out of my mouth verbatim. Truth is not just in the gaming industry but also in academic, scientific, religious, and political debates very few people are interested in discussion.

Everything eventually comes down to generalizations, red herrings, slander, and shouting. No one learns anything, the discussion itself becomes moot compared to the mudslinging, and nothing has changed.

It is why I only really look at certain videos and news articles on the Escapist because the user discussions very rarely have any real discussion.

I hope this trend of not discussing dies but I haven't seen any evidence contrary to what is currently going on.

This is usually how this type of "discussion" goes (this was from a few weeks ago).

There's a group of people that like something or want to discuss something rationally and calmly:

For instance with "Dragon's Crown", this character was revealed a long time ago and most fans of Vanillaware's games were happy with it, there was great anticipation and a shitload of fanart from both men and women surrounding the game.
This article for instance is from June 2011: http://www.examiner.com/article/the-sorceress-of-dragon-s-crown-inspires-hundreds-of-fan-made-illustrations

You can imagine this woman in the role of an utterly annoying Jason Schreier:

And then there's the general feminists screaming and flailing about how horrible everyone is for liking/enjoying or trying to discuss something that they don't approve of:

Of course, there will also be a group of people who insist on calling them out, for instance in this case Jason Schreier and telling them that they are fucking idiotic in return, and they also often go too far (these are often portrayed as the only "bad guys" in these kind of debates).

I find it funny that a """gaming journalist""" who posts an approximately 50-long word """article""" on a rag like Kotaku: http://kotaku.com/game-developers-really-need-to-stop-letting-teenage-boy-472724616 and in that alone manages to disrespect a developer and studio head in all manner of ways, from calling him a teenage boy, a 14-year-old (despite being in his mid 40's) and basically saying that he has no talent and "at least works cheap", as well as anything else that is being implied by that is called "starting a discussion" nowadays.

Boy, I should totally start more discussions on things.

Thanks for posting the inevitable thread ruining post.

I hope you're proud.

I might get the sexualization argument more if the Sorceress, and especially the Amazon, were sexy in the first place. I can kinda see the Sorceress, but then I saw the video of the Sorceress and her boobs flopping everywhere and I don't get how anyone could find that titillating. Maybe it's just me.

Voulan:
I'll admit when I first saw the Sorceress I was quite angry, mostly because it was a case of 'here we go again, another female character whom I want nothing to do with'. When I saw the rest of the designs, though, I took back my hate, because it was clearly a design choice. A bloody horrible one, but one nonetheless.

What got to me more was reading threads about the issue. People being shouted down for being feminists, and to 'get the f*** over it, it happens to men too', and that 'you're not allowed to be offended, everyone gets offended too easily.' The term feminazi really is a horrid one - is someone wanting female equality really in the same vein as a group widely known for attempting to kill an entire culture of people?

Games that should be discussed are ones like Scarlet Blade, where the characters are such obvious titillation that I actually get angry whenever I see ads for it. I keep begging for female characters, so why do you keep designing them for men instead of people like me?

Shush, you're being calm and rational. No place for that now!

As I browsed through the character designs, I didn't bat an eyelash at that. If the rest of the game's art was grounded in realism...well....we'd have a new ball game.

Reminds me of the fiasco of Sarkenissan (sp) dismissing Zia's character as a damsel in distress, doing that whole snap-shooting a single aspect (oh he has to go save her) to further an argument when reality (she left on her own to explore her own culture and find her own path) disagrees with her.

Voulan:
I'll admit when I first saw the Sorceress I was quite angry, mostly because it was a case of 'here we go again, another female character whom I want nothing to do with'. When I saw the rest of the designs, though, I took back my hate, because it was clearly a design choice. A bloody horrible one, but one nonetheless.

What got to me more was reading threads about the issue. People being shouted down for being feminists, and to 'get the f*** over it, it happens to men too', and that 'you're not allowed to be offended, everyone gets offended too easily.' The term feminazi really is a horrid one - is someone wanting female equality really in the same vein as a group widely known for attempting to kill an entire culture of people?

Games that should be discussed are ones like Scarlet Blade, where the characters are such obvious titillation that I actually get angry whenever I see ads for it. I keep begging for female characters, so why do you keep designing them for men instead of people like me?

Not that I disagree with your thoughts on this game, but answer me this what good is/has feminism even done recently? Sure the vote, but that's a given.

evilthecat:
...
Thus, I suspect you're severely exaggerating the impact of a controversy over concept art and social media etiquette on actual sales data. Most people who buy games don't care about this shit. They aren't going to read some article about this controversy and go "wow, some dude implied another dude liked cock on facebook, I'd better check out this game he's making to see if it's any good".
...

No, they're not.

But they'll know the game exist, which is the first hurdle to overcome, and as the controversy run, they'll be exposed to information about it. The controversy stuff in itself does nothing for sales, it's all about the exposure gained. Which, for a very small game without much in the way of western PR, is solid gold.

So really, we can debate the minor publicity merits of controversy all we want, but what will ultimately determine success or failure of this game, as with any game, is whether it's good and whether people are likely to enjoy playing it, because really.. what proportion of people will buy a game (an interactive experience based on gameplay) because it has tits in it, particularly when the concept art is already on the internet for everyone to wank off to for free? Now we're talking statistically insignificant.

Well, leaving the whole eroge business aside, who'd buy a car - a mechanical object for everyday transportation - because it'd been consistently marketed in TV spots with hot women sitting on it pouring champagne all over themselves?

Not many, but it might make that model stick in their heads, making them examine that model the next time they're in the market for a car. Which is half the marketing battle. If sex didn't sell, then it wouldn't be so prevalent in marketing.

The fact is, Kotaku was already talking about this game before Kamitani did his lolgay thing and they certainly didn't need to do that. Neither do they particularly need to follow it's development further, or indeed the development of future games from the same studio, if nothing else because it's a relatively small studio in Japan without a very strong English language media division and with a CEO who clearly doesn't understand how social media PR works in the most basic sense.

Kotaku's thing is its extensive coverage of otaku subculture. And I'm pretty sure they're not going to ignore future western releases from ATLUS. They weren't covering the game because small studio in Japan, they were covering it because it was getting a translated western release by the major player which releases the rather famous Persona games, alongside various other titles such as Catherine.

Professionalism is not optional.

No.

But it need not always take inoffensive forms. For instance, if marketing an exploitation movie, the professional thing to do would be to stir up as much controversy as possible. The same could be said for certain low profile indie games with a potentially broader appeal than the niche which already know of them. Only here it was of course pure luck that another gaming website felt like profiting off the hits generating by gender controversy, bringing Dragon's Crown to general attention in the process. Everybody wins... except the prudish.

Jayemsal:
Thanks for posting the inevitable thread ruining post.

I hope you're proud.

Thanks, I try my best.

Voulan:
Games that should be discussed are ones like Scarlet Blade, where the characters are such obvious titillation that I actually get angry whenever I see ads for it. I keep begging for female characters, so why do you keep designing them for men instead of people like me?

We've been over this in one of the Scarlet Blade thread, not everyone is the same and you shouldn't project your dislikes and "getting angry" on an entire gender. This thread in the Scarlet Blade forum someone discovered is about 70-80% women of all sorts of ages, backgrounds and even some mothers playing the game happily and enjoying it. Some even specifically stating that the character designs are one of the main reasons for playing the game.

Fiairflair:
...
I posit that it is essential that interested people discuss and debate the nature of games, films, and the like. The Sorceress from Dragon's Crown is an ideal example. Because of the portrayal of the Sorceress, and regardless of the intentions of the artist, many consumers may feel further isolated from the gaming market. If an artist holds the view that the objectification or overt sexualisation of women is okay, they will likely reflect that view in their work. If that work is successful, an argument is made for the promotion of material that in turn promotes the objectification or overt sexualisation of women. Rational discussion tempers that process; it allows for consumers and potential consumers to voice their preferences, which can then lead to the artist reviewing their work and changing their approach in the future.

Assuming of course there's an overlap between the people criticizing it, and the consumer group(s) the game is aimed at. If those criticizing aren't even potential consumers, then their opinions are worthless. It's none of their business what other people choose to play in the privacy of their own home, what right do they have to interfere with products aimed them?

That said, there is another way to rid the market of questionable and offensive content. If a rational criticism makes readers less inclined to support the artist and that sentiment grows, the artist's work and its messages stop spreading. This is the harsher but just as effective method of ideas evolving.

Again assuming there's an overlap between the people criticizing it, and the consumer group it's aimed at. You can't really boycott something you weren't going to buy anyway.

A critic is not defined by the constructive nature of their criticisms but by the simple fact that they critique things. To critique something is nothing more or less than to judge that thing critically and make a critical assessment.

Only constructive criticism is worth concerning oneself with though.

If the criticism respected the premise of the product, and was aimed at creating a more sexy sorceress, then it'd be worthwhile. As is, it's simply people trying to substitute their own vision with that of the designer. Most of whom undoubtedly weren't going to buy the game anyway, even if the sorceress suddenly became an AA-cup. Hence their "criticism" - or rather puritanical moralizing - is no more relevant than that of the people who complain about violent video games, without actually playing violent video games.

Jonathan Braun:

Not that I disagree with your thoughts on this game, but answer me this what good is/has feminism even done recently? Sure the vote, but that's a given.

Well, since I'm not a feminist, I can't really say. But why would you dismiss their past accomplishment? Feminism is a social movement, not an actual organisation, so it's brilliant that its done that much.

defskyoen:

We've been over this in one of the Scarlet Blade thread, not everyone is the same and you shouldn't project your dislikes and "getting angry" on an entire gender. This thread in the Scarlet Blade forum someone discovered is about 70-80% women of all sorts of ages, backgrounds and even some mothers playing the game happily and enjoying it. Some even specifically stating that the character designs are one of the main reasons for playing the game.

No, I'm not angry at the people that play the game. What I'm angry at its advertising and design as a game about sexualised women. The ads I've seen show the characters in suggestive poses with tags like "it's getting hot in here, so take off all your clothes" and "wanna play with me?". That's blatant pandering. It's even worse that some of the characters are clearly underage. It's the same issue I had with the Hitman Absolution trailer, as did many people.

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