The Divide

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Devoneaux:

Owyn_Merrilin:

Except that's not how the term is actually used.

people misusing it has nothing to do with it's intended purpose. If you see someone use it this way, calmly explain it to them that they are misusing it, and what it actually means.

It's the "ludonarrative" part that I take issue with. Does the phrase "sesquipedalian loquaciousness" mean anything to you?

It does now, thanks to the magic of Google, you know that thing that lets people learn more about ideas, words, or concepts that they aren't familiar with?

Edit: Also if you can use "sesquipedalian loquaciousness" in your argument and still get your intended meaning across, then why not "Ludonarrative"?

Because Sesquipedalian Loquaciousness is intentionally wordy to get the point across that people who exhibit the trait are being overly wordy. And no, what I described is not a misuse of the term "gameplay and story segregation." It is the intended use. The classic example is how you can't use a Phoenix Down to save Aeris. You'll note that that's also the classic example of ludonarrative dissonance, because they're the same concept.

DVS BSTrD:
Well it looks like Journalists get the Star power while the cartoonist...

*puts on sunglasses*

...works for Peanuts

Heh...much better than the comic, sadly.

Owyn_Merrilin:

Devoneaux:

Owyn_Merrilin:

Except that's not how the term is actually used.

people misusing it has nothing to do with it's intended purpose. If you see someone use it this way, calmly explain it to them that they are misusing it, and what it actually means.

It's the "ludonarrative" part that I take issue with. Does the phrase "sesquipedalian loquaciousness" mean anything to you?

It does now, thanks to the magic of Google, you know that thing that lets people learn more about ideas, words, or concepts that they aren't familiar with?

Edit: Also if you can use "sesquipedalian loquaciousness" in your argument and still get your intended meaning across, then why not "Ludonarrative"?

Because Sesquipedalian Loquaciousness is intentionally wordy to get the point across that people who exhibit the trait are being overly wordy. And no, what I described is not a misuse of the term "gameplay and story segregation." It is the intended use. The classic example is how you can't use a Phoenix Down to save Aeris. You'll note that that's also the classic example of ludonarrative dissonance, because they're the same concept.

Actually not using the phoenix down is closer to a contrivance than it is gameplay/story segregation, and certainly doesn't quality as ludonarrative dissonance.

Devoneaux:

Owyn_Merrilin:

Devoneaux:

people misusing it has nothing to do with it's intended purpose. If you see someone use it this way, calmly explain it to them that they are misusing it, and what it actually means.

It does now, thanks to the magic of Google, you know that thing that lets people learn more about ideas, words, or concepts that they aren't familiar with?

Edit: Also if you can use "sesquipedalian loquaciousness" in your argument and still get your intended meaning across, then why not "Ludonarrative"?

Because Sesquipedalian Loquaciousness is intentionally wordy to get the point across that people who exhibit the trait are being overly wordy. And no, what I described is not a misuse of the term "gameplay and story segregation." It is the intended use. The classic example is how you can't use a Phoenix Down to save Aeris. You'll note that that's also the classic example of ludonarrative dissonance, because they're the same concept.

Actually not using the phoenix down is closer to a contrivance than it is gameplay/story segregation, and certainly doesn't quality as ludonarrative dissonance.

Are you messing with me, or what? That's the textbook example. In the gameplay, a phoenix down will revive anyone after death. But because the story demands it, it doesn't work when a certain character dies in a cutscene. Hence, ludonarrative dissonance: the ludonarrative and the regular narrative clash.

Susan Arendt:

Kyogissun:
Okay so this came up on Address the Sess and now here, does someone want to explain to me what this Luddonarrative Dissonance bullshit is?

It's a term people throw around when sounding edified is more important to them than actually getting their meaning across.

I don't think so. Jargon has its uses, it concisely gets the point across to the people who have studied or understand it. I think often times people forget about the fact that people outside the bubble are going to be confused. So instead of one word/phrase, you need to use a couple of sentences to get the same point across, which is sometimes hard to remember.

As someone in philosophy I have faced this situation many times even with relatively well known words such as "utilitarianism".

I just don't feel that people who trip up and forget to address their audience appropriately are doing it because thy are snobs.

Owyn_Merrilin:

Devoneaux:

Owyn_Merrilin:

Because Sesquipedalian Loquaciousness is intentionally wordy to get the point across that people who exhibit the trait are being overly wordy. And no, what I described is not a misuse of the term "gameplay and story segregation." It is the intended use. The classic example is how you can't use a Phoenix Down to save Aeris. You'll note that that's also the classic example of ludonarrative dissonance, because they're the same concept.

Actually not using the phoenix down is closer to a contrivance than it is gameplay/story segregation, and certainly doesn't quality as ludonarrative dissonance.

Are you messing with me, or what? That's the textbook example. In the gameplay, a phoenix down will revive anyone after death. But because the story demands it, it doesn't work when a certain character dies in a cutscene. Hence, ludonarrative dissonance: the ludonarrative and the regular narrative clash.

Ludonarrative dissonance refers to a clash of theme and gameplay, not plot and gameplay. The theme is not the plot.

Devoneaux:

Owyn_Merrilin:

Devoneaux:

Actually not using the phoenix down is closer to a contrivance than it is gameplay/story segregation, and certainly doesn't quality as ludonarrative dissonance.

Are you messing with me, or what? That's the textbook example. In the gameplay, a phoenix down will revive anyone after death. But because the story demands it, it doesn't work when a certain character dies in a cutscene. Hence, ludonarrative dissonance: the ludonarrative and the regular narrative clash.

Ludonarrative dissonance refers to a clash of theme and gameplay, not plot and gameplay. The theme is not the plot.

Citation? "ludonarrative" literally means "gamestory," not "gametheme." Something tells me that after all the time you spent defending the term, it's confusing enough that you don't fully understand it yourself.

Owyn_Merrilin:

Devoneaux:

Owyn_Merrilin:

Are you messing with me, or what? That's the textbook example. In the gameplay, a phoenix down will revive anyone after death. But because the story demands it, it doesn't work when a certain character dies in a cutscene. Hence, ludonarrative dissonance: the ludonarrative and the regular narrative clash.

Ludonarrative dissonance refers to a clash of theme and gameplay, not plot and gameplay. The theme is not the plot.

Citation? "ludonarrative" literally means "gamestory," not "gametheme." Something tells me that after all the time you spent defending the term, it's confusing enough that you don't fully understand it yourself.

Here you go

http://clicknothing.typepad.com/click_nothing/2007/10/ludonarrative-d.html

This is the guy who first came up with the term. I warn you, the post is quite long, you'll likely be spending some time reading, assuming you really care about being right at this point.

Devoneaux:

Owyn_Merrilin:

Devoneaux:
Ludonarrative dissonance refers to a clash of theme and gameplay, not plot and gameplay. The theme is not the plot.

Citation? "ludonarrative" literally means "gamestory," not "gametheme." Something tells me that after all the time you spent defending the term, it's confusing enough that you don't fully understand it yourself.

Here you go

http://clicknothing.typepad.com/click_nothing/2007/10/ludonarrative-d.html

This is the guy who first came up with the term. I warn you, the post is quite long, you'll likely be spending some time reading, assuming you really care about being right at this point.

Dude, four paragraphs in:

To cut straight to the heart of it, Bioshock seems to suffer from a powerful dissonance between what it is about as a game, and what it is about as a story. By throwing the narrative and ludic elements of the work into opposition, the game seems to openly mock the player for having believed in the fiction of the game at all. The leveraging of the game's narrative structure against its ludic structure all but destroys the player's ability to feel connected to either, forcing the player to either abandon the game in protest (which I almost did) or simply accept that the game cannot be enjoyed as both a game and a story, and to then finish it for the mere sake of finishing it.

Note that he said story? Also note that "narrative" is closer to a synonym for "story" than it is "theme[1]." If he had wanted to coin a term specifically about themes, he probably would have gone with something like "ludothematic dissonance," not "ludonarrative dissonance."

[1] It effectively does mean story, but with the connotation of one told in a linear manner.

Owyn_Merrilin:

Devoneaux:

Owyn_Merrilin:

Citation? "ludonarrative" literally means "gamestory," not "gametheme." Something tells me that after all the time you spent defending the term, it's confusing enough that you don't fully understand it yourself.

Here you go

http://clicknothing.typepad.com/click_nothing/2007/10/ludonarrative-d.html

This is the guy who first came up with the term. I warn you, the post is quite long, you'll likely be spending some time reading, assuming you really care about being right at this point.

Dude, four paragraphs in:

To cut straight to the heart of it, Bioshock seems to suffer from a powerful dissonance between what it is about as a game, and what it is about as a story. By throwing the narrative and ludic elements of the work into opposition, the game seems to openly mock the player for having believed in the fiction of the game at all. The leveraging of the game's narrative structure against its ludic structure all but destroys the player's ability to feel connected to either, forcing the player to either abandon the game in protest (which I almost did) or simply accept that the game cannot be enjoyed as both a game and a story, and to then finish it for the mere sake of finishing it.

Note that he said story? Also note that "narrative" is closer to a synonym for "story" than it is "theme[1]." If he had wanted to coin a term specifically about themes, he probably would have gone with something like "ludothematic dissonance," not "ludonarrative dissonance."

I want you to take notice of how he says the game play and narrative are acting against each other, and does not say that they are segregated. Fine, i'll concede the point of Ludonarrative referring to the story as a whole, yet to imply that it is the same thing as Game/story segregation is still false.

[1] It effectively does mean story, but with the connotation of one told in a linear manner.

Devoneaux:

Owyn_Merrilin:

Devoneaux:

Here you go

http://clicknothing.typepad.com/click_nothing/2007/10/ludonarrative-d.html

This is the guy who first came up with the term. I warn you, the post is quite long, you'll likely be spending some time reading, assuming you really care about being right at this point.

Dude, four paragraphs in:

To cut straight to the heart of it, Bioshock seems to suffer from a powerful dissonance between what it is about as a game, and what it is about as a story. By throwing the narrative and ludic elements of the work into opposition, the game seems to openly mock the player for having believed in the fiction of the game at all. The leveraging of the game's narrative structure against its ludic structure all but destroys the player's ability to feel connected to either, forcing the player to either abandon the game in protest (which I almost did) or simply accept that the game cannot be enjoyed as both a game and a story, and to then finish it for the mere sake of finishing it.

Note that he said story? Also note that "narrative" is closer to a synonym for "story" than it is "theme[1]." If he had wanted to coin a term specifically about themes, he probably would have gone with something like "ludothematic dissonance," not "ludonarrative dissonance."

I want you to take notice of how he says the game play and narrative are acting against each other, and does not say that they are segregated. Fine, i'll concede the point of Ludonarrative referring to the story as a whole, yet to imply that it is the same thing as Game/story segregation is still false.

Now you're just being pedantic. http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/GameplayAndStorySegregation

^There's one of the older definitions of the phrase, although it wouldn't surprise me if it existed before TVTropes made the article about it. I know the article existed before the term "ludonarrative dissonance" did.

[1] It effectively does mean story, but with the connotation of one told in a linear manner.

Owyn_Merrilin:

Devoneaux:

Owyn_Merrilin:

Dude, four paragraphs in:

Note that he said story? Also note that "narrative" is closer to a synonym for "story" than it is "theme[1]." If he had wanted to coin a term specifically about themes, he probably would have gone with something like "ludothematic dissonance," not "ludonarrative dissonance."

I want you to take notice of how he says the game play and narrative are acting against each other, and does not say that they are segregated. Fine, i'll concede the point of Ludonarrative referring to the story as a whole, yet to imply that it is the same thing as Game/story segregation is still false.

Now you're just being pedantic. http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/GameplayAndStorySegregation

^There's one of the older definitions of the phrase, although it wouldn't surprise me if it existed before TVTropes made the article about it. I know the article existed before the term "ludonarrative dissonance" did.

And TVTropes is incorrect. And pedantic? I prefer the term "Precise".

Story and Gameplay segregation cannot mean the same thing as Ludonarrative dissonance because English says so. "Separation" does not equal "contradiction" it just doesn't. So what if TVTropes says otherwise? The world is full of authority figures who say lots of stupid things.

Edit: Kind of like how "Narrative" does not mean "Theme" Remember? It's "Game/Story Segregation" Not "Game/story Dissonance".

[1] It effectively does mean story, but with the connotation of one told in a linear manner.

Devoneaux:

Owyn_Merrilin:

Devoneaux:

I want you to take notice of how he says the game play and narrative are acting against each other, and does not say that they are segregated. Fine, i'll concede the point of Ludonarrative referring to the story as a whole, yet to imply that it is the same thing as Game/story segregation is still false.

Now you're just being pedantic. http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/GameplayAndStorySegregation

^There's one of the older definitions of the phrase, although it wouldn't surprise me if it existed before TVTropes made the article about it. I know the article existed before the term "ludonarrative dissonance" did.

And TVTropes is incorrect. And pedantic? I prefer the term "Precise".

Story and Gameplay segregation cannot mean the same thing as Ludonarrative dissonance because English says so. "Separation" does not equal "contradiction" it just doesn't. So what if TVTropes says otherwise? The world is full of authority figures who say lots of stupid things.

Edit: Kind of like how "Narrative" does not mean "Theme" Remember? It's "Game/Story Segregation" Not "Game/story Dissonance".

Whatever, dude. Keep pretending that's not the definition people work under when using the phrase if it makes you feel better.

Awww, the mean old journalists stole Johnathon Grey Carter's totally unique viewpoint and wrote award-winning articles. Now Johnathon Grey Carter is sad. We should all feel bad for Johnathon Grey Carter and give him many awards.

Machine Man 1992:
Okay, I'm confused: can someone point me out the two items this comic is lampooning?

The "low hanging fruit" of game comics is to make a joke based around how what happens in a game is inconsistent with how someone behaves in real life. It's seen as lazy to joke about how Pacman must be bulimic, or how Gordon Freeman shouldn't be able to kill so many aliens. But respected game journalism is often lauded for discussing the same basic thing.

maninahat:

Machine Man 1992:
Okay, I'm confused: can someone point me out the two items this comic is lampooning?

The "low hanging fruit" of game comics is to make a joke based around how what happens in a game is inconsistent with how someone behaves in real life. It's seen as lazy to joke about how Pacman must be bulimic, or how Gordon Freeman shouldn't be able to kill so many aliens. But respected game journalism is often lauded for discussing the same basic thing.

Oh I thought they were making fun of a particular comic and article.

Matt Gleason:
Does anyone else miss this comic focusing on Erin being crazy?

Yes, but people were bitching and moaning about that too, so fuck it, they can do whatever.

I just wish I knew what exactly was being referenced here.

This is an honest-to-god, perfectly serious suggestion: Everytime you make a comic you deem would give a journalist an award, you should work a dick in there somewhere. A hidden, hard to find, phallic metaphor.

Owyn_Merrilin:
Dude, four paragraphs in:

To cut straight to the heart of it, Bioshock seems to suffer from a powerful dissonance between what it is about as a game, and what it is about as a story. By throwing the narrative and ludic elements of the work into opposition, the game seems to openly mock the player for having believed in the fiction of the game at all. The leveraging of the game's narrative structure against its ludic structure all but destroys the player's ability to feel connected to either, forcing the player to either abandon the game in protest (which I almost did) or simply accept that the game cannot be enjoyed as both a game and a story, and to then finish it for the mere sake of finishing it.

Note that he said story? Also note that "narrative" is closer to a synonym for "story" than it is "theme[1]." If he had wanted to coin a term specifically about themes, he probably would have gone with something like "ludothematic dissonance," not "ludonarrative dissonance."

Dude, first sentence:

To cut straight to the heart of it, Bioshock seems to suffer from a powerful dissonance between what it is about as a game, and what it is about as a story. [emphasis added]

The Wikipedia article on narrative themes gives that "...a work's thematic concept is what readers 'think the work is about.'" Though Mr. Hocking did not specifically use the word theme while coining the phrase, he did use its definition in relation to both a game's story and its gameplay.

[1] It effectively does mean story, but with the connotation of one told in a linear manner.

Wait, people actually give a shit what games journalists say? Aside from factual news it's most just speculative, bribed or plain shite.

*sigh* I Know the feeling. This has just made it feel worse. *sighs and rolls up into a bed burrito*

Art.

Wow, that's a heaping of bitter. There's not even a disconnect here you can't just write an article or a comic about something and gripe when a much better written article gets all the attention. Just pointing out a disconnect without structuring it into a proper point or joke IS just a cheap shot.

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