Jimquisition: Objectification And... Men?

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Theres some other issues that need to be addressed in this debate. Like the fact that Senran Kagura might never make it outside of Japan due to the west being prudish and crying sexist at anyything that has boobs.

grumpymooselion:
Good points Jim, but, perhaps you've forgotten - there are male characters made for a female audience.

Male characters made for specifically a female audience, usually a teen female audience, over in Japan.

And we're done, those games are sold almost exclusively in Japan, Jim's mostly talking about Western attitudes with the objectification thing. That's including the Dead or Alive Beach Volleyball footage he used, cuz that was sold in the West.

Jim has used the DoA: Beach Volleyball trailer as an example of female objectification way too much. Granted, it's a pure example, but it's in almost every video Jim has done regarding the topic of women.
At least he expanded his scope to Dragon's Crown and sometimes winks at Other M.

Speaking of consistently using examples, Jim also uses Gears of War, Uncharted, and God of War as "male idealization" examples, though not quite as much as DoA:BV.

Imp Emissary:

Monxeroth:
So i heard you like beating dead horses :U
Truth =/= Urgency
One does not trivialize the other and vice versa and one is not objectively more harmful even if it would be a lot more frequently occuring for example.

Wonder what tired old subject will be tackled next week
DRM?
Bad Business Practices?

Really starting so sound like a broken record by now but oh well...

Don't you think the reason people, (Not just Jim, Bob made this same point a good while ago), keep talking about these problems may be because they haven't stopped being problems?

Ignoring the problems won't make them get better.

Jimothy Sterling:
I bet on this episode of Road Runner, the coyote tries to catch the bird and fails. Fuck this show.

Every dog has his/her day. Even Coyotes.

He did finally get the Bird on Robot Chicken.

Again
Truth=/= Urgency
A problem may be a problem, just not as harmful or urgent as people make it out to be yknow
I never said to ignore them so thats just a bad strawman right there i said: Sure you can debate something over and over again but please include a few more viewpoints and try to find valid grounds in viewpoints other than your own and at least attempt to not just repeat yourself for the sake of repeating.

Thank you, Jim. It's like you know exactly what to say to the douchenozzles who cover their ears and go "LALALA SEXISM DOES NOT EXIST!"

The thing that annoys me the most is the endless flak, the stubborn refusal to face facts and own up to the toxicity of the industry.

Xman490:
Jim has used the DoA: Beach Volleyball trailer as an example of female objectification way too much. Granted, it's a pure example, but it's in almost every video Jim has done regarding the topic of women.

Basically because it's a killer example.

I can happily use some different footage. That one just works so damn well.

Monxeroth:

Sepko:

Monxeroth:

Thankfully im not one of those however i will say "Lets talk about it but just not repeat ourselves with the same thing so that it doesnt become as much of a discussion and more of a pls-agree-with-me-footrace"

In the sense that, yeah i like that we're having the discussion i just dont like any discussion, discourse and debate to be onesided or to be basically all the people saying the same thing but formulated differently, thats not what debate is to me.

This is almost like debating how Creationism has equal standing with Evolution as a science.
Arguments can be one-sided and still be interesting.

Sure they can but in most cases theyre not.
Consistency is good sure but, just repeating for the sake of repeating makes no progress whatsoever towards anything.
It is and always will be more interesting when it is two-sided however.
Yes one-sidedness can SOMETIMES be interesting in a few rare cases (this isnt one of them btw)
but more often than not the two-sided debate is healthier and a lot more interesting

This is assuming that the second side had any ground to stand on.

Even if the arguement that both male and female characters are equally objectified would be entirely true, I can't for the life of me see how that solves anything. It would only make the problem worse, wouldn't it? It doesn't really seem like another reason to just ignore it and go on as usual if the problem is that much larger.

But Jim, you magnificent stallion, if I don't treat them as equal I have to admit that maybe there is an actual problem that should be addressed. Why would I do that when I can yell at people to shut up and offer myself up to false martyrdom?

Help, help! I'm being oppressed!

Ashoten:
I have heard this argument before when people talk about comic book women being objectified. This is the best response I have seen.

image

Make of it what you will.

They need bigger boobs.

<.<

>.>

Monxeroth:

People often say to other people critisizing opinionvideos like these for: Well if you have something better to say why dont you make it yourself?

Well i would if it wasnt already said better by someone else so im not gonna waste other peoples time with simply watching a video of my opinion that is already very similar to someone elses video with for example better content value.
I have something better to say but its not different enough to justify it being said at all just for the sake of saying it, that kind of defeats the point of debate if it becomes stagnant with the same viewpoints being formulated differently time and time again

So instead, you're beating a dead horse by insisting that it's all been said.

...This is getting meta. Is this a performance art piece or something?

MaxwellMouse:
Monxeroth, it is not everyone has seen all internet videos before. Even if it is a covered topic, that does not make it any less valid or relevant. I see people saying things like this all the time, as recent as the whole Dragon`s Crown issue.

It does if there is nothing new brought to the table in a long time then yes, that does make it less relevant since its blown out of proportion and not as equally urgent as it is true yknow >_>

Less valid, most likely not

Zachary Amaranth:
But Jim, you magnificent stallion, if I don't treat them as equal I have to admit that maybe there is an actual problem that should be addressed. Why would I do that when I can yell at people to shut up and offer myself up to false martyrdom?

Help, help! I'm being oppressed!

Ashoten:
I have heard this argument before when people talk about comic book women being objectified. This is the best response I have seen.

image

Make of it what you will.

They need bigger boobs.

<.<

>.>

Monxeroth:

People often say to other people critisizing opinionvideos like these for: Well if you have something better to say why dont you make it yourself?

Well i would if it wasnt already said better by someone else so im not gonna waste other peoples time with simply watching a video of my opinion that is already very similar to someone elses video with for example better content value.
I have something better to say but its not different enough to justify it being said at all just for the sake of saying it, that kind of defeats the point of debate if it becomes stagnant with the same viewpoints being formulated differently time and time again

So instead, you're beating a dead horse by insisting that it's all been said.

...This is getting meta. Is this a performance art piece or something?

Spam all the metas

Sepko:

Monxeroth:

Sepko:

This is almost like debating how Creationism has equal standing with Evolution as a science.
Arguments can be one-sided and still be interesting.

Sure they can but in most cases theyre not.
Consistency is good sure but, just repeating for the sake of repeating makes no progress whatsoever towards anything.
It is and always will be more interesting when it is two-sided however.
Yes one-sidedness can SOMETIMES be interesting in a few rare cases (this isnt one of them btw)
but more often than not the two-sided debate is healthier and a lot more interesting

This is assuming that the second side had any ground to stand on.

Which you should always assume going in to a debate if you want to be taken seriously

I have a question, that's just an aside, what if men are being objectified by way of the marketing?

Understand I do believe that objectification of women in games is a serious issue ad have sent e-mails to several companies explaining this. However I wonder if part of the issue isn't that game companies have told us what to want to an extent? I mean if all I get from them is bums and boobs won't that mean that's all I want, because I know of no other representation in games?

I know what I'm saying is perhaps a bit convoluted but I have yet to buy bioshock infinite because I'm not sure if that would be sending the right message to publishers, telling them that I respond to that kind of marketing, that I want more "gun-bros" and "boob-girls". And then I'm forced to choose between buying a game I want and telling publishers that what they're doing is cool.

I know in previous episodes Jim has said that we should support the games we like, and speak out against negative practices, but I don't see something like this being resolved in such a manner when I have very few options to "vote with my wallet". So how do we break the cycle? Of course supporting those games with fairly represented women is the way to go, but so far the are only two triple-A titles on the horizon, and nothing else. And I really do want bioshock infinite.

It's pretty messed up that I find myself in such a dilemma.

Ya when you put it like that and focus pretty much on aesthetics there is an unequal playing ground. From where I am sitting both sexes are on equal ground because it isn't the clothes or the chest size that is the problem. Storytelling is. Walking gun saves boobs from evil. When they take the keyboards away from the chimps and give them too people with I.Q.s in the double digits then we can have this discussion (if it is still warranted).

Jimothy Sterling:

Sir Christopher McFarlane:
Yeah, Jim, stop talking about this immediately!

What I like is that you posted what was *really* wanting to be said.

"This is getting old" is always a reliable way to mask, "I dislike this topic."

A sad truth.

As for those who really are just tired: just because good arguments exist showcasing a real problem does not mean that the problem has magically gone away. You have to get up and do something about it too; the grass isn't going to mow itself.

There is nothing worse than a bunch of people who agree that something must be done, yet do fuck all when it comes to actually realizing that change in the world, and then proceed to complain that the problem is "getting old" when they get bored of showing their moral outrage.

If some of you are really tired of hearing about the problem, then get off your rears and do something about it. Write a book, spread the word, and make videos; do something for crap's sake rather than whine about how "old" the problem is, because nothing is more "old" than a gaggle of apathetic geese honking and hissing at passing cars.

Reading the first few comments is... kind of upsetting.

grumpymooselion:
Good points Jim, but, perhaps you've forgotten - there are male characters made for a female audience.

Name five please.

There's also the fact that if men are treated so poorly, why the hell isn't anyone speaking up about it? The only times I hear about it are when women or any other minority points out how poorly they're represented.

If there's a problem, fucking make noise and try to do something about it. That's what women and many others are trying to do. Just because you don't care doesn't mean everyone else should not care and we should all shut up about everything. That's just stupid.

Monxeroth:

Jack and Calumon:
All very good points and arguments that have, unfortunately, been covered many times by many people for about a year now. Sure, people still use this defence so you could argue it bears repeating, but honestly this has been said ad nauseum. No new perspectives were brought up, no new ideas, just the ones covered by everyone else.

Not that it detracts from the points you've made. I firmly agree, it's just dull to see what you've seen before.

Calumon's sleeping, I'm lazy. Bleck.

It really is and thats why we use terms like broken record and beating a dead horse because well...thats all there is to it if no new perspective is brought up or if someone has already said it better before.
I really see no point in arguing and or debating for well...the sake of debating because we need to debate about the debate and need to debate the debate...*headache*

People often say to other people critisizing opinionvideos like these for: Well if you have something better to say why dont you make it yourself?

Well i would if it wasnt already said better by someone else so im not gonna waste other peoples time with simply watching a video of my opinion that is already very similar to someone elses video with for example better content value.
I have something better to say but its not different enough to justify it being said at all just for the sake of saying it, that kind of defeats the point of debate if it becomes stagnant with the same viewpoints being formulated differently time and time again

I agree completely. Why formulate an argument, think on an issue, and and add your voice to the discussion when you can just drop a link on a forum page with a smarmy "I'll just leave this here" and have your point immediately proven for you. People should never discuss a topic once someone has talked about it. Death to those who speak for themselves!!!!!!

Monxeroth:

Again
Truth=/= Urgency
A problem may be a problem, just not as harmful or urgent as people make it out to be yknow
I never said to ignore them so thats just a bad strawman right there i said: Sure you can debate something over and over again but please include a few more viewpoints and try to find valid grounds in viewpoints other than your own and at least attempt to not just repeat yourself for the sake of repeating.

I've never pretended that every episode I do will cover new ground. In fact, several episodes -- some of which I'm most proud of -- do little more than redraw established arguments. These episodes are made, by design, to re-tell a story in a way that I hope will be understood by those who weren't "getting it" before. A new translation, if you will. Or at least having the words coming from someone such people would be more willing to listen to. I have a decent size audience, and I'd like to use my influences in circles not normally reached by others for some sort of good.

If this topic is nothing new to you, that's fine. I absolutely cannot argue that back to you. However, you're not the blueprint of the human race. Nor am I, as much as it pains me to finally have to admit that.

You said it yourself -- truth=/=urgency. You're right. There's nothing "urgent" about this show. It's a consumer and culture affairs show and I tackle things at my own pace. The existence of this episode does not destroy the existence of other ones.

My only advice to you is, if you're truly tired of my consumer and cultural affairs show tackling consumer and cultural affairs, just stick to Loading Ready Run, which also goes up here on a Monday morning and is generally damn funny.

Bke:
I have a question, that's just an aside, what if men are being objectified by way of the marketing?

Understand I do believe that objectification of women in games is a serious issue ad have sent e-mails to several companies explaining this. However I wonder if part of the issue isn't that game companies have told us what to want to an extent? I mean if all I get from them is bums and boobs won't that mean that's all I want, because I know of no other representation in games?

I know what I'm saying is perhaps a bit convoluted but I have yet to buy bioshock infinite because I'm not sure if that would be sending the right message to publishers, telling them that I respond to that kind of marketing, that I want more "gun-bros" and "boob-girls". And then I'm forced to choose between buying a game I want and telling publishers that what they're doing is cool.

I know in previous episodes Jim has said that we should support the games we like, and speak out against negative practices, but I don't see something like this being resolved in such a manner when I have very few options to "vote with my wallet". So how do we break the cycle? Of course supporting those games with fairly represented women is the way to go, but so far the are only two triple-A titles on the horizon, and nothing else. And I really do want bioshock infinite.

It's pretty messed up that I find myself in such a dilemma.

Well of course only if we objectively assume that objectifying can objectively only exist for one objective purpose to begin with, ie sex appeal in this case.
As in, objectifying is one thing and one definition only and thus can only be applied to females in that sense

But what if we then assume that objectification isnt just about that?

Dear Jim, your argument is invalid, this is due to the Postal Dude. He is a male character that is in no way idolised nor should he be. He is at best a terrible human being.

Well I took one look at the title and my reaction was "oh for f*** sake", watched it and like every "gender politics in games" jimquisition or anything on the internet my reaction was well founded. I am do sick of hearing about this "issue", I get it, I really do. Telling me 20 more times isn't going to make me get it any more and neither is it going to change the minds of those who refuse to get it. All it does is make me apathetic, once upon a time I was active over this issue, now I'm so sick of hearing about it from everywhere I avoid getting involved.

There will always be both extremes to this, there will always be those who rail against any attempt for equality and there will always be those waiting to blow any little perceived inequality up to ridiculous proportions. Frankly I'm sick of both sides, I'm sick of the gamer kiddies making all male gamers look bad and I'm sick of every little thing being some giant drama. If everyone stopped being so reactionary to everything and chose when to speak up instead of it being constant it will be noticed a lot better than a constant white noise of nonissues drowning out the few actual issues.

But the women are being idealized as well! Who doesn't want an attractive female who depends on her man?

DVS BSTrD:
I recall having a similar discussion about the portrayal of men vs the portrayal women in popular culture overall. For from objectifying men, this other person seemed to think that men were unfairly stereotyped as fat idiots who were completely dependent on women to save them from themselves. Now I want you to look at these pictures and ask yourself
imageimage
Which standard is harder to live up to?

There's some truth to the issue that men always get portrayed as fat idiots, and women as smart and beautiful. But in most specific cases, the fat idiot male is usually the focus of the story: it is Peter Griffon/Homer Simpson/Fred Flinstone who get the majority of the screen time, comes up with some wacky scheme, gets into hyjinx, and generally has the emotional arc at the centre of the story. Women are often relegated to a supporting role or side plot (your Marge Simpsons, Wilmas etc), and they often end up as the nagging, serious, fun-hating voice of reason.

The classic sitcom model is an age old parody of the traditional, nuclear family; the recurring themes are blue collar working men, pretty house wives, and precocious children. That's generally the reason we tend to see the fat idiot husband, the overworked smart wife, and the asshole children: they are achetypes, playing against stereotypes.

Muspelheim:
Even if the arguement that both male and female characters are equally objectified would be entirely true, I can't for the life of me see how that solves anything. It would only make the problem worse, wouldn't it? It doesn't really seem like another reason to just ignore it and go on as usual if the problem is that much larger.

The thing is, that most people from what I have seen do not use the "They are both objectified" argument as a way of suggesting that it should be ignored, but as a way of pointing out that the issue isn't with bad female characters, but with bad characters overall.

That writers should be working on writing decent characters in the first place, rather than simply trying to fix female characters.

Note that I am not expressing my own opinion, merely pointing out what I have seen when people actually talk about male objectification.

Although I would say that despite most male characters being written to appeal to male gamers. They pretty much exist to make "witty" one liners and shoot things. So while they are not "objectified", they are pretty bad in their own right, as the "ideal" male is apparently a meat head with the inability to converse like a normal person, no emotions or value for human life.

Which I think is the point people who make the argument are trying to get across.

Well some of them.

There does seem to be a fair amount of people who actually think the muscular men in gaming are the equivalent of the sexualised women. Which is worrying.

cookyy2k:
Frankly I'm sick of both sides, I'm sick of the gamer kiddies making all male gamers look bad and I'm sick of every little thing being some giant drama.

Amen to that.

Did Jim just orgasm after the credits? If so, I don't think that's the first time he's done that on camera >.<

Yes, maybe this topic is well trodden, but it doesn't make it any less important.

As for my stance, people who say "Well men are objectified as well so that makes Jiggly McBoobie LaTits character designs okay" can go fuck themselves. The whole thing can be summed up in two sentences: Male video game characters tend to be power fantasies for men. Female video game characters tend to be sexual fantasies for men.

End of story.

Monxeroth:

Imp Emissary:

Monxeroth:
So i heard you like beating dead horses :U
Truth =/= Urgency
One does not trivialize the other and vice versa and one is not objectively more harmful even if it would be a lot more frequently occuring for example.

Wonder what tired old subject will be tackled next week
DRM?
Bad Business Practices?

Really starting so sound like a broken record by now but oh well...

Don't you think the reason people, (Not just Jim, Bob made this same point a good while ago), keep talking about these problems may be because they haven't stopped being problems?

Ignoring the problems won't make them get better.

Jimothy Sterling:
I bet on this episode of Road Runner, the coyote tries to catch the bird and fails. Fuck this show.

Every dog has his/her day. Even Coyotes.

He did finally get the Bird on Robot Chicken.

Again
Truth=/= Urgency
A problem may be a problem, just not as harmful or urgent as people make it out to be yknow
I never said to ignore them so thats just a bad strawman right there i said: Sure you can debate something over and over again but please include a few more viewpoints and try to find valid grounds in viewpoints other than your own and at least attempt to not just repeat yourself for the sake of repeating.

So I shouldn't just keep saying "Truth=/=Urgency"?
Also, you are ignoring that while you may not find this problem to be a big deal, others clearly do. Such is a viewpoint held by many, and it is a view point with valid grounds. If people didn't care about these problems, they (the general gaming public), and journalist wouldn't be talking about them.

The point Jim made is being repeated, not for the sake of repeating, but because people are ignoring it. As I said, and as you complained, this is not the first time someone has made this point. Yet people continue to say things aren't that bad, and that we shouldn't be talking about it. It is being repeated, so it won't be forgotten.

The record isn't broken. People just want to play it again, and again, and again. With reason.

Jimothy Sterling:

Monxeroth:

Again
Truth=/= Urgency
A problem may be a problem, just not as harmful or urgent as people make it out to be yknow
I never said to ignore them so thats just a bad strawman right there i said: Sure you can debate something over and over again but please include a few more viewpoints and try to find valid grounds in viewpoints other than your own and at least attempt to not just repeat yourself for the sake of repeating.

I've never pretended that every episode I do will cover new ground. In fact, several episodes -- some of which I'm most proud of -- do little more than redraw established arguments. These episodes are made, by design, to re-tell a story in a way that I hope will be understood by those who weren't "getting it" before. A new translation, if you will. Or at least having the words coming from someone such people would be more willing to listen to.

If this topic is nothing new to you, that's fine. I absolutely cannot argue that back to you. However, you're not the blueprint of the human race. Nor am I, as much as it pains me to finally have to admit that.

You said it yourself -- truth=/=urgency. You're right. There's nothing "urgent" about this show. It's a consumer and culture affairs show and I tackle things at my own pace. The existence of this episode does not destroy the existence of other ones.

My only advice to you is, if you're truly tired of my consumer and cultural affairs show tackling consumer and cultural affairs, just stick to Loading Ready Run, which also goes up here on a Monday morning and is generally damn funny.

Why? Because i dont happen to agree with this one in particular or the way it presents itself while there are numerous other Jimquisition episodes that i deem fucking gold-worthy (no sarcasm intended, im actually being serious real talk here ok?)

Its just a mere observation and i havent said and or implied that you should just quit and never do this again, its your show, you have the right and the only entitlement to anything here to do as you wish.
If these subjects and these types of videos are what you want to produce in the future then, ok, do that, your videos and your show and my subjective opinion or anyone elses for that matter should NEVER be the reason to compromise the integrity and the presentation of your videos.

Like you said, some people do not like the jimquisition persona and presentation.
...and? who gives a flying fuck if people dont like it or not?
Internet and videos like these are personality driven - Totalbiscuit

So i find it just contradictory for people to demand change in personality and peronas when..thats what some people are here for, thats why im here >_>

This thread is going to end in a flame war. This cannot be avoided. I really do want to talk about this in a calm and rational manner but...that's just not gonna happen, let's face it.

cookyy2k:
Well I took one look at the title and my reaction was "oh for f*** sake", watched it and like every "gender politics in games" jimquisition or anything on the internet my reaction was well founded. I am do sick of hearing about this "issue", I get it, I really do.

There comes a point where, if a child sticks his tongue in an electrical outlet enough times, we must ask if it's the child's fault he keeps involuntarily shitting his Teddy Ruxpin pajamas.

Ashoten:
I have heard this argument before when people talk about comic book women being objectified. This is the best response I have seen.

image

Make of it what you will.

Question!!! Why does Superman shave his legs? HOW does Superman shave his legs? I mean Greenlantern I can get, Human with alien technology. How does Superman manage though? Industrial strength polymer leg waxing?

The topic Jim addresses specifically of "are men objectified in video games in the same manner as women?" is treated quite fairly and well I think. However it doesn't address the broader issue of whether or not modern western civilization also presents unhealthy or counterproductive role-models for men. I think that there are plenty of negative and unhealthy roles/stereotypes/expectations/messages being shoved down the throats of young men both regarding their expected physical appearance, societal roles, interactions with other men/women etc. that are worth discussing and dealing with. But to the extent that these roles/portrayals of men appear in videogames it is not "objectifying" in the strictest sense.

cookyy2k:
Well I took one look at the title and my reaction was "oh for f*** sake", watched it and like every "gender politics in games" jimquisition or anything on the internet my reaction was well founded. I am do sick of hearing about this "issue", I get it, I really do. Telling me 20 more times isn't going to make me get it any more and neither is it going to change the minds of those who refuse to get it. All it does is make me apathetic, once upon a time I was active over this issue, now I'm so sick of hearing about it from everywhere I avoid getting involved.

There will always be both extremes to this, there will always be those who rail against any attempt for equality and there will always be those waiting to blow any little perceived inequality up to ridiculous proportions. Frankly I'm sick of both sides, I'm sick of the gamer kiddies making all male gamers look bad and I'm sick of every little thing being some giant drama. If everyone stopped being so reactionary to everything and chose when to speak up instead of it being constant it will be noticed a lot better than a constant white noise of nonissues drowning out the few actual issues.

Well like jim said this is hardly a show or videos made for the intention of yknow, changing anyones mind who already agrees with him.

RaikuFA:
Theres some other issues that need to be addressed in this debate. Like the fact that Senran Kagura might never make it outside of Japan due to the west being prudish and crying sexist at anyything that has boobs.

You're being sarcastic, right?
Please tell me you are.

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