Jimquisition: Objectification And... Men?

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matthew_lane:

True: but to be fair, they also started in the 1930's (with comics being the natural evolution of the pulps)... The expected role of men in that time period was to lay down your life and liberty to protect women & children. An arse backwards concept its true, in any world that speaks of gender equality.

******good thing i never stated the year they were created. I meant it in a generalize way that the comics started as men being the savior and protector, i used female in distress because ppl used that as being the sexist part. :)(whether my words are the best choice or not.)

"Your point stands, but i wouldn't use Wonder Woman. She has not aged well.

I've always thought that had it not been for icon protection, Wonder Woman would have been cancelled at some point in her history (as were many golden age characters), to be relaunched in the silver age as a much better, substantive comic book (as many silver age characters were, such as the Flash & Green Lantern).

Alas it was not to be: Instead she was in a perpetual cycle of hopeless reinvention & regression... One writer would try a new direction & then immediately the next writer would undo it & go straight back to her roots. An unfortunately her roots didn't age well... Because really there is only so much people can do to pretend that a xenophobic island of ex-rape/domestic violence victims, functioning under an immortal theocratic dictator-for-life, with no industry, stagnated culture & forced military service taught under a dogma of "one day mans world will attack us" is a good positive role model.

To be honest, there was an infinite amount of uncreated characters who could have been DC's female trinity member & none of them should have been Wonder Woman."

*****Well as I can see We see eye to eye on the situation, our standards are a little different. I love wonder woman :) is she the best? no but i do love her :D lol her story and background. and i love her personality as a character. though, i dont dig shes into superman :p but i need to catch up on that stuff. Anyway, there are alot of DC female character i like, i just didnt go into detail on them. I can respect your view of wonder woman. But i dont have to agree :D lol

" Because really there is only so much people can do to pretend that a xenophobic island of ex-rape/domestic violence victims, functioning under an immortal theocratic dictator-for-life, with no industry, stagnated culture & forced military service taught under a dogma of "one day mans world will attack us" is a good positive role model."

*****I am very into Greek mythology and though it is not to a T like the AMAZONS i know of, I do like some of the traits they kept. I'm not saying Wonder woman is the BEST icon, but I think she is a better icon than that of a real Amazonian. She is nothing like them, she does not murder men on sight like they would have, instead she believes woman should also be were men are. Which is sexual equality. She even shows compassion with kids male and female. This was the reason i brought her up. Whether some want her to be or not she is a female icon in comics.

&though i dont technically agree with their revamp of 1987 to have all amazons be reincarnated souls of women slain throughout pre-history by men. You can see it as Women who had a wrongful death are are given peace and a chance to live a happy life like one it meant to.I mean the story they added really helps see light in the little dark that is there. I really like the interpretation of history put into it.

~~**"They are tasked to teach the merits of virtue, love, and equality to the men of "Patriarch's World". They found the city-state of Themyscira in ancient Turkey, which is ruled by sisters Hippolyta and Antiope. Ares, the God of War and a chief opponent of the Amazons, manipulates his half brother Heracles to gather forces and attack Themyscira. Heracles subdues and ravages Hippolyta, and his forces succeed in ransacking Themyscira and making the Amazons their slaves. Hippolyta pleads with the goddesses for help. Athena agrees to aid the Amazons, but only if they do not go against their purpose of creation by seeking revenge. When they agree to her terms, Athena frees the Amazons from their chains. Once freed, however, the Amazons proceed to slaughter most of their captors. Antiope leads a force of Amazons off into Greece, seeking vengeance on Heracles. As decreed by the goddesses, Hippolyta leads the remaining Amazons to a remote island where, as penance for their failures as teachers, they become guardians of Doom's Doorway, preventing the escape of the monsters beneath" "Occasionally, the Nereides bring to the shores of Themyscira young infants who would have otherwise drowned in accidents. Called "sending forth," these infants would be tutored spiritually in Amazonian ideals, and then sent back mystically to the place of their disappearance. Julia Kapatelis, Diana's first friend in Patriarch's World, is one such infant." :D

"You know what, you'd probably love the decoder ring theatre's free "oldtime radio play" style podcast, called "The Red Panda." You should check it out: Its well worth the listen to, has an interesting female character, filled with moxy & spunk, an is set in the 1930's of Toronto.

http://www.decoderringtheatre.com/shows/red-panda-adventures/

*****I looked it up and I really like the art of the title. I am actually listening to it as i type. Thank you ^_^

Yuuki:

Rebel_Raven:
You can plug your ears to the problem, and keep shoveling the whole "market trends" and "making money" excuses, but they're falling on deaf ears, and I'd hope/thought that'd be clear by now. You're not going to convert people. You're simply not.

Convert them to what? Where have I said that? I said the complete OPPOSITE if you read my damn post, I said people are free to criticize and give feedback and vote with their wallets. That's the whole point, that's the entire idea. It's a constant exchange of trying out new things, getting feedback from that (i.e. profits, and then deciding whether to press-on with those things or turn around and try something else.

Rebel_Raven:
Honestly, a lot of us don't want any damned excuses to begin with, nor do we care about them. We want change!
Safe bet more than a few people in this thread care about your arguments about as much you care about what the people are complaining about... Unless it's those people who're getting overly defensive because on this subject in favor of the status quo. All they really care about is maintaining the status quo. Those people care about the topic way more than some would care about their excuses coz they don't want the status quo changing.

You can despise, and loathe the topic all you want, people. You can disagree for the next million years, if you want, but it's not going to go away so long as examples of the crap in video I linked in this thread keep happening. Infact it's likely to get more, and more common, and there's little to nil you can do to stop it until the complaints are remedied.

If you're arguing just to be contrary, well, it's fun doing that isn't it? It should definitely keep going on. <.<

You want change? GOOD, then keep fighting for it - I've said this time and again. Keep fighting and let nothing stop you.

I have an appreciation for things at the grander scale (which apparently a lot of people here don't, they just "want their problems gone away dammit!" etc) and I hold a different opinion to what takes priority and what needs to change - trust me, I'm *sort of* on your side because I pretty much agree that sexism in gaming is something we need to see less of. There, I said it.
But the IMPORTANCE people feel the issue needs to be given is something I disagree with. I've always believed in mankind operating as a community, many parts working together to make a whole - that whole cannot come together without the sum of it's parts, and it won't come together no matter how desperately a specific part (e.g. a tiny minority) wants change.

Firstly the issue needs to exist on a far bigger scale, take higher priority in the grand scheme, make developers/publishers actually WANT to care about it - and in those aspects I believe this topic trips over the very first hurdle.
But by no means let that stop you, people need to continue voicing their opinions and voting with their wallets if we are to see progress. But will that progress conform to your specific wants? I don't really know and I can't really be sure.

The stuff after "Onwards and in general" wasn't directed at you, personally. I should've made it clearer, I guess. ^^'
It's directed more at the plethora of people who try that excuse about marketing, and what not.

The way these topics appear, I'd say the minority is continually growing. Not just here, but in other forums where people voice their frustrations.

Aardvaarkman:
For most women, the safest assumption is that you need to protect yourself from men, because they often want to sexually assault you. This is not something men generally have to fear.[/quote

[quote="Aardvaarkman" post="6.407898.17046850"]Sure, in most cases it might simply be looking. But how would a woman know that it is not going to turn into something much worse?

Uhm... Your a girl? and you walk around everyday, every second of your life thinking the next guy that looks at you is probably going to rape you? punch you in the face? wow... :( you poor thing.

First i need to state, For every person, the safest assumption is that you need to protect yourself from danger. Women kill, rape and have violent behavior too. Not just men. Trust me, i laugh when i hear a women "raped" a man, but it doesnt mean it didnt happen or cant happen... There are some big girls out there, and not so big guys.

Might i say this is a fear you are living in to say men often want to sexually assault you. Did you know is it statistically proven men and women will both look or stare at what they simply think can be beautiful or an oddity. It could be your high cheek bones, your beautifully shaped eyes, or even their color. You could have the prettiest hair they've seen or a figure out of this world.

I have men staring at me all the time, and am i sitting here thinking "omg whose around this guy could rape me, or even just walk up and deck me for no reason, what should i do if it happens." No if i feel uncomfortable with a guy staring or looking I tell them WTF is up. Ive even had women stare at me when i dolled myself up. Should i think they were gonna rape me or punch me in the face because they were gawking like the guys do? no. simply smile and know Im beautiful and can make head turn. I do not have to live in fear that i will be violently assaulted on random occasion or raped at any moment. All i need to do as a person is prepare myself for that if one day it comes down to it, i will know how to defend myself and be my own hero.

The idea is right in that it is not the same problem, However its completely wrong because of the determination of what the problem actually is. It is not about objectification vs idealism. Its about two completely different types of perception.

Yuuki:

Lightknight:
It's important to understand that not all gaming is the same. Even if it were honestly split 50/50 regarding gender distribution we would not necessarily see 50/50 in every genre. Girls may gravitate more towards certain game types than males do. Ignoring differences between the sexes is expressing an amazing degree of naivete towards biological and socialogical differences the sexes face.

I know females gravitate more towards certain games, that 47% has to be correct to some extent (it can't be a total lie :P).

Just in case there was any confusion. I wasn't saying that you were being naive. I was just contributing to the discussion and mostly in agreement with you. So my comment was to say that it would be naive for anyone to ignore those differences. Hopefully you understood me correctly.

That's why I insisted a breakdown by genre/category (or even per game) is necessary here, it's the most important thing because then developers/publishers can explore the possibility of drawing females where they're lacking and boosting sales/profit margins for themselves.

But all this raises a very obvious question - devs/publishers already KNOW who is buying what games. A person like you or me cannot hope to find out sales statistics better than publishers/studios themselves. These are well-hidden numbers which are never revealed to the public/press unless the company believes it will help them in any way.

So far the indications seem as follows: either nobody at the higher levels gives a shit because only when you're at the top of the building and looking down can you appreciate the true size/impact of every issue in the grand scheme of things, and that's when you need to prioritize. OR - as some people in this thread (not you) seem to be implying, developers/publishers are simply stupid and don't know what to make of their stats, don't know what to do with their money, etc.

Well, at least we can rely on free speech and the right of every gamer to voice their opinions and criticism in a hope to sway the market trends and make the higher-ups try something new.

Well, there is a lot we can know. From that math, the demographic could not have been any larger than 25% maximum of female clientel for the ps3 and 360 markets combined, even if we assumed a 50/50 gendered market which is a factually incorrect benefit of the doubt even today. That's already a large enough disparity to show a vested interest in catering to males well before females. If we use the more realistic number of 18% (which also assumes that women are just as likely to own a console as men, which is another leap in their favor that is not likely true) then the gap gets even wider.

Dividing it up by genre would only benefit specific developers/publishers moreso than giving us beneficial information. If we did find a single genre that was 50/50 or higher for women then that would be interesting, but would not impact the commentary on the industry as a whole.

Good analysis btw, makes at least some sense :P

Thanks!

Rebel_Raven:
Snippity do da day

What's stopping you from making a game? Or better yet women in general, they don't need to get a job at EA or any other big name, many indies have proved this. Tomb Raider had that stupid commercial with a bunch of actors going "I am Lara Croft", yet the actual game and plot was very good, no DOA beach volleyball as women actually took part in creating her.
Market Trends are not solely created by the company, this is proven by all the failed products lining bargain bins or liquidation stores.

Objectification of men does exist in games, it's just not of the physical variety. Speaking as someone who actually has a broken leg right now, serious injuries aren't fun. They are painful, damaging, potentially crippling or lethal, and if you're lucky to survive recovery is long, slow, also painful, sometimes humiliating, and often never complete. Men are EXPECTED to risk serious injury in dangerous situations. It is to an extent required of them by other men and by women. If they do not do so, they are not 'real men'.

(As an aside, consider how feminists approached military service, with or without conscription. Sure some want to serve in the military, and they should, but you don't see the kind of cohesive stampede from feminists that you got for other things that were until recently exclusively male.)

Now think of the last game you played with human antagonists. How many of the humans that you shot were men? How many women? How many men did you shoot without a second's thought? How many times did you throw the player character (human and male usually) into a dangerous situation? It's best said by the TV Trope: Men Are The Expendable Gender. Hitting them is okay. Killing them is okay. Putting them in danger is okay.

This is objectification. Not sexually, but militarily. If woman are required to be sex objects in games, men are required to be obedient unquestioning cannon fodder. They are people reduced to punching bags. The same thing? Better? Worse? Depends on your view.

Ask a circle of male and female friends how many times they've been hit or kicked or pushed in public, by someone who isn't a friend having a lark. Tell them not to omit anything. In most cases the men will have been subjected to a much higher frequency of violence than the women have; which includes the painful end of the bell curve. We can argue the statistics, and causes, but this is possibly a more valid argument than focusing purely on physical appearance.

Which Jim did, and which made that part of this video a poorly thought out straw man. His other points about the game industry treating female characters almost as badly as female gamers? Yes, that was correct..

ANTIcarrot:
The Anti-Carrot

The new Lara Croft is about the first time I've ever seen a women being physically and graphically hurt in a game.

DownTharr:

Rebel_Raven:
Snippity do da day

What's stopping you from making a game? Or better yet women in general, they don't need to get a job at EA or any other big name, many indies have proved this. Tomb Raider had that stupid commercial with a bunch of actors going "I am Lara Croft", yet the actual game and plot was very good, no DOA beach volleyball as women actually took part in creating her.
Market Trends are not solely created by the company, this is proven by all the failed products lining bargain bins or liquidation stores.

I'd say the equipment at the very least, plus about 3 million dollars, a team of people to help, and a company that won't tell me I can't have a female protagonist? based loosely off doublefine's kickstarter I've been reading about. Even then that might not be sufficient money.

That's before advertising it to say the least.

See, if I had the money, I'd certainly want to seek out making a good game, and something of a AAA game, or at least close to it. A game that'd certainly help illustrate that a cool protagonist sells regardless of gender. Well written, and well put together mechanically, and well put together graphically.

It's gotta be a -good- game that gets word out. A bad game with a female protagonist will only reinforce the whole "It's the market!" argument.
Gamers won't play a crap game no matter who the protagonist is IMO unless it's got some absurd levels of high graphics, or it's adult only.

Indies haven't exactly crossed this whole problem with female protagonists either, at least not in a decent game.

And Tomb Raider was a great game for certain, but it got crap advertising. Lets face facts there. It certainly wasn't a Modern warfare commercial campaign with the star power. I think it was Modern warfare. Not sure since I don't give a damn about sausagefest shooters no matter how many women they put in the commercial.

The point I was making is that most game companies are FORCING male protagonists plus the lack of effort behind female protagonists. Basically the Vid I linked earlierin this thread.
Forced male protagonists = next to nil chances of female protagonists = less chances of marketing pointing towards their viability in sales=Forced male protagonists = next to nil chances of female protagonists = less chances of marketing pointing towards their viability in sales = Forced male protagonists = next to nil chances of female protagonists=less chances of marketing pointing towards their viability in sales- ad nauseum.
Get my point?

Until game producers get some courage, and put in effort towards games with female protagonists that are worth the investment, things won't change which is why the whole market thing is pretty much a fallacy.
All games hit the bargain bin eventually, too.

Hopefully we're starting to see the beginnings of thouse courageous first steps towards more female protagonists, but we're sorely nowhere near there yet.

Rebel_Raven:

I'd say the equipment at the very least, plus about 3 million dollars, a team of people to help, and a company that won't tell me I can't have a female protagonist? based loosely off doublefine's kickstarter I've been reading about. Even then that might not be sufficient money.

That's before advertising it to say the least.

See, if I had the money, I'd certainly want to seek out making a good game, and something of a AAA game, or at least close to it. A game that'd certainly help illustrate that a cool protagonist sells regardless of gender. Well written, and well put together mechanically, and well put together graphically.

It's gotta be a -good- game that gets word out. A bad game with a female protagonist will only reinforce the whole "It's the market!" argument.
Gamers won't play a crap game no matter who the protagonist is IMO unless it's got some absurd levels of high graphics, or it's adult only.

Indies haven't exactly crossed this whole problem with female protagonists either, at least not in a decent game.

And Tomb Raider was a great game for certain, but it got crap advertising. Lets face facts there. It certainly wasn't a Modern warfare commercial campaign with the star power. I think it was Modern warfare. Not sure since I don't give a damn about sausagefest shooters no matter how many women they put in the commercial.

The point I was making is that most game companies are FORCING male protagonists plus the lack of effort behind female protagonists. Basically the Vid I linked earlierin this thread.
Forced male protagonists = next to nil chances of female protagonists = less chances of marketing pointing towards their viability in sales=Forced male protagonists = next to nil chances of female protagonists = less chances of marketing pointing towards their viability in sales = Forced male protagonists = next to nil chances of female protagonists=less chances of marketing pointing towards their viability in sales- ad nauseum.
Get my point?

Until game producers get some courage, and put in effort towards games with female protagonists that are worth the investment, things won't change which is why the whole market thing is pretty much a fallacy.
All games hit the bargain bin eventually, too.

Hopefully we're starting to see the beginnings of thouse courageous first steps towards more female protagonists, but we're sorely nowhere near there yet.

Not having the money is a poor excuse if you ask me. The vast majority of entrepreneurs don't have the money they need either, they go seek for it. Make a good business plan with strong market studies to support the viability of your project, go to banks, business angels, VC's, crowd funding sources, the government for subsidies, your friends and family, etc. and ask them to fund you. That's how people do it. It's a lot of efforts for sure but if the market is like you think it is you will reap the benefits of those efforts.

And it's easy to say that game producers need get some courage when it's not your funds that may be wasted.

And if you think that having forced male protagonists somehow results in the marketing department not being able to point towards their viability you're underestimating marketing. It is very easy to "prove" they are viable without there being many female protagonists. I mean, how do you think innovative entrepreneurs convince their investors their products will be successful?

matthew_lane:
If by "female friendly" you mean they make casual games, with little to no learning curve, then yes i woud agree. But i would also say that the few female gamer friends i have would punch you in the face for saying it. Because they don't consider people who play the WII to be real gamers either... with a few obvious exceptions.

*i agree i have a female friend who considers herself a pure hardcore gamer but only plays two games on the wii. Hell no!! When i mainly if not always play my PS3/vita for the more hardcore gaming experience. If anything id say Nintendo is more for kids or as stated below casual gamers or people who dont like to spend most their time on games, as to where the real gaming action is with the adult consoles like ps3 and xbox :D this is why most these games are rated for teens. Though i am starting to see more and more games for nintendo having adult themes.

Lightknight:
Actually, I moreso meant that Nintendo products are typically less exploitative of female sexuality.

^^ i feel like this is only true because nintendo, personally, appeals to kids more than adults.

Lightknight:
But women in aggregate(gathered together to form a total quantity), they do prefer the wii, or at least 80% of all female gamers did in 2009.

*may i add once the wii fit came out, majority of women who wanted the wii were of elder age to keep in shape not necessarily for gaming experience. :\ I knew atleast 5+ elder women who got it just for the wii fit. and have never touched it since...

"usage days for males and females are much closer for wii and ps3. On average, the least used console is the Wii."

Lightknight:
It would likewise be folly to dismiss casual gaming. It is to hardcore gaming as television shows are to movies or magazines are to novels and is every bit as valid a source of entertainment. I'm not sure why game-class warfare is required here.

*I think the reason why the type of gamer is being considered here is because if someone who hardly plays games wants to put in an opinion fine, however they are not of the masses that attribute to the cause. Ya know? Im not sure my word usage is 100 % how i want it to be, but hopefully this makes sense.

example: Would you rather listen to your dr or nurse? naturally your doctor because they are that much more knowledgeable about the situations in the air of the profession.

Anyway-All arguments aside, Hope everyone has a wonderful weekend! ^_^

generals3:

Not having the money is a poor excuse if you ask me. The vast majority of entrepreneurs don't have the money they need either, they go seek for it. Make a good business plan with strong market studies to support the viability of your project, go to banks, business angels, VC's, crowd funding sources, the government for subsidies, your friends and family, etc. and ask them to fund you. That's how people do it. It's a lot of efforts for sure but if the market is like you think it is you will reap the benefits of those efforts.

And it's easy to say that game producers need get some courage when it's not your funds that may be wasted.

And if you think that having forced male protagonists somehow results in the marketing department not being able to point towards their viability you're underestimating marketing. It is very easy to "prove" they are viable without there being many female protagonists. I mean, how do you think innovative entrepreneurs convince their investors their products will be successful?

Then why aren't you making games, then? Why isn't everyone? Not having the money is a valid excuse. Lets be realistic.

Honestly, it's not the way I think the market is, it's the way the sources of money think the market is. Plus having a head start of having a gaming company, game making equipment and/or a team is going to go a long way. And a solid plan. I'm just me. I just don't have these resources to give anyone faith in my ability to grant me money.
I don't know if I have what it takes, even. Hell, I'm doubtful of a lot of gaming companies ability to make a cool female protagonist.
All I have is knowing what it is I want.

As for them "wasting" their resources, you think it'd be a waste to make a female protagonist, huh? <.<

Frankly the professionals have a better chance, and better connections to make a viable game that has a female protagonist. It'd be far less of a gamble for, say Rockstar to make a GTA side story that features a female lead. Not saying they have to dive into a sequel to Oni (unless it's bungie that has the IP, I dunno.), but at least probing the market might be worthwhile.

Rebel_Raven:

Then why aren't you making games, then? Why isn't everyone? Not having the money is a valid excuse. Lets be realistic.

A: I'm a student and don't feel like dedicating time to launching my own business right now?
B: Even if I were wanting to launch my own business (which is one of my goals in the future, yay entrepreneurship) I would need to find a business idea that would yield profit first. You see, that's the main problem, many people don't have a business idea they feel would work. It's a mix of risk aversion and lack of ideas. The lack of financing is actually not a main reason why people don't start their own business (and thus in this case make their own game). If i were as certain that games which are "women friendly" is such a profitable idea as you i might actually consider it. Unfortunately I don't share your optimism.

And this is also why i think the market argument is fairly valid. In this capitalistic free market world when there is potential there is someone to grab the profits of it. It's not like the idea of a woman playing a game is so foreign no one would even think about it. Heck there are games aimed at women specifically, just not typical AAA games.

Honestly, it's not the way I think the market is, it's the way the sources of money think the market is. Plus having a head start of having a gaming company, game making equipment and/or a team is going to go a long way. And a solid plan. I'm just me. I just don't have these resources to give anyone faith in my ability to grant me money.
I don't know if I have what it takes, even. Hell, I'm doubtful of a lot of gaming companies ability to make a cool female protagonist.
All I have is knowing what it is I want.

Well see, that's the problem, you're making assertions based on your personal opinion, which is extremely biased. You can't just follow your hunch and say "well i like this so there is a big market potential for this". I love RTS's and Sandbox MMO's but those are obviously two niche markets, if I were to base my market analysis on my personal bias than I would have to conclude gaming companies are being retarded for not creating more of those games.

As for them "wasting" their resources, you think it'd be a waste to make a female protagonist, huh? <.<

No but making a gaming which is unprofitable is.

Frankly the professionals have a better chance, and better connections to make a viable game that has a female protagonist. It'd be far less of a gamble for, say Rockstar to make a GTA side story that features a female lead. Not saying they have to dive into a sequel to Oni (unless it's bungie that has the IP, I dunno.), but at least probing the market might be worthwhile.

Well it depends. Those big bucks companies usually make games with big budgets. So for them it's a lot of money which is at risk. And you don't need to forget about the shareholders which wouldn't be too happy for the company they invested in to make a game which flopped.

And while I can't know for sure if they do that but if their marketing teams are any competent they probably already probed it. Not by making the games but making market researches. You always probe the market BEFORE you make the product/service.

Rebel_Raven:

generals3:

Not having the money is a poor excuse if you ask me. The vast majority of entrepreneurs don't have the money they need either, they go seek for it. Make a good business plan with strong market studies to support the viability of your project, go to banks, business angels, VC's, crowd funding sources, the government for subsidies, your friends and family, etc. and ask them to fund you. That's how people do it. It's a lot of efforts for sure but if the market is like you think it is you will reap the benefits of those efforts.

And it's easy to say that game producers need get some courage when it's not your funds that may be wasted.

And if you think that having forced male protagonists somehow results in the marketing department not being able to point towards their viability you're underestimating marketing. It is very easy to "prove" they are viable without there being many female protagonists. I mean, how do you think innovative entrepreneurs convince their investors their products will be successful?

Then why aren't you making games, then? Why isn't everyone? Not having the money is a valid excuse. Lets be realistic.

Honestly, it's not the way I think the market is, it's the way the sources of money think the market is. Plus having a head start of having a gaming company, game making equipment and/or a team is going to go a long way. And a solid plan. I'm just me. I just don't have these resources to give anyone faith in my ability to grant me money.
I don't know if I have what it takes, even. Hell, I'm doubtful of a lot of gaming companies ability to make a cool female protagonist.
All I have is knowing what it is I want.

As for them "wasting" their resources, you think it'd be a waste to make a female protagonist, huh? <.<

Frankly the professionals have a better chance, and better connections to make a viable game that has a female protagonist. It'd be far less of a gamble for, say Rockstar to make a GTA side story that features a female lead. Not saying they have to dive into a sequel to Oni (unless it's bungie that has the IP, I dunno.), but at least probing the market might be worthwhile.

Money's no real issue, it's passion. Me and many other gamers may like gaming, but have no real passion to want to make games, there are exceptions though. I just personally believe that if you (and it's not just you) have a problem with female representation in games, then do it yourself (Not a complete AAA gaming experience, but tackle this problem and come up with potential answers). I don't know it's just what I'd do.

And sure a games companies have connections, but they don't have money to just throw around, I mean Tomb Raider was considered a failure by Square. Studios are failing and getting bought out and the cost of making AAA rises every year, while the indie games market is growing. It's not all graphics and voice acting, there's heart that can be found in even the cheap, hastily made indie game.

generals3:

Rebel_Raven:

Then why aren't you making games, then? Why isn't everyone? Not having the money is a valid excuse. Lets be realistic.

A: I'm a student and don't feel like dedicating time to launching my own business right now?
B: Even if I were wanting to launch my own business (which is one of my goals in the future, yay entrepreneurship) I would need to find a business idea that would yield profit first. You see, that's the main problem, many people don't have a business idea they feel would work. It's a mix of risk aversion and lack of ideas. The lack of financing is actually not a main reason why people don't start their own business (and thus in this case make their own game). If i were as certain that games which are "women friendly" is such a profitable idea i might actually consider it. Unfortunately I don't share your optimism.

Honestly, it's not the way I think the market is, it's the way the sources of money think the market is. Plus having a head start of having a gaming company, game making equipment and/or a team is going to go a long way. And a solid plan. I'm just me. I just don't have these resources to give anyone faith in my ability to grant me money.
I don't know if I have what it takes, even. Hell, I'm doubtful of a lot of gaming companies ability to make a cool female protagonist.
All I have is knowing what it is I want.

Well see, that's the problem, you're making assertions based on your personal opinion, which is extremely biased. You can't just follow your hunch and say "well i like this so there is a big market potential for this". I love RTS's and Sandbox MMO's but those are obviously two niche markets, if I were to base my market analysis on my personal bias than I would have to conclude gaming companies are being retarded for not creating more of those games.

As for them "wasting" their resources, you think it'd be a waste to make a female protagonist, huh? <.<

No but making a gaming which is unprofitable is.

Frankly the professionals have a better chance, and better connections to make a viable game that has a female protagonist. It'd be far less of a gamble for, say Rockstar to make a GTA side story that features a female lead. Not saying they have to dive into a sequel to Oni (unless it's bungie that has the IP, I dunno.), but at least probing the market might be worthwhile.

Well it depends. Those big bucks companies usually make games with big budgets. So for them it's a lot of money which is at risk. And you don't need to forget about the shareholders which wouldn't be too happy for the company they invested in to make a game which flopped.

And while I can't know for sure if they do that but if their marketing teams are any competent they probably already probed it. Not by making the games but making market researches. You always probe the market BEFORE you make the product/service.

You say you're not against making a game with a female protagonist, yet you're against making an unprofitable game? Sort of the same thing, isn't it? What's hinging on you not making the game? A female protagonist. Not the quality of the protagonist, not the quality of the game, nor any other apparent factor that oculd make, or break the game.
If you're not willing, it's not going to happen, the market will never see your gamble, and the market won't be budged by it, so people aren't willing to make a female protagonist game. It's a vicious cycle, isn't it?

Also you're talking about making genres. I'm not. I'm talking about games in general. Female Friendly gaming isn't a genre any more than male friendly gaming. I'm not even going as far as anyone-friendly. My sights are more on more female protagonists in games that aren't terrible. That might have some added benefit in being more friendly to female gamers, but that's not in my sights.

Tomb Raider would be in the same genre as Uncharted, wouldn't it? Making an RTS-sandbox combo is leaps and bounds diffirent. I do gotta say, it's an interesting thought as towards how they might merge.

Making a game with a female protagonist wouldn't be as huge of a gamble if it didn't suck, 'm sure. It'd be even less of a gamble if it came from a company already established working in within their main genre. Like I said, if there was a Sleeping Dogs (Square Enix), or GTA (R*) DLC side story in the vein of "liberty city stories" it'd be even less of a gamble, and not require as much money as they'd be using pre-existing resources for the game. Further, because of the game's following (at least as far as GTA goes) people might be more inclined to give it a try because it comes from people recognized as worthwhile companies.

But like I said, there's a hell of a lot more reasons a game will fail than the protagonist.
If the game sucks, no one will play it, male or female protagonist.
If no one hears about the game, people are less likely to buy it because it flew under their radar. The gender of the protagonist doesn't matter there either in general.
Heck, the only reason I know about "Remember Me" is that I'm actively looking for games that have a female protagonist, or gender select that doesn't reward you more for being the guy.

As towards investors not being happy if the game flopped, well, it'd be better to use pre-existing resources as much as possible to limit the financial loss, wouldn't it? It's why DLC addons are cheaper, isn't it?

If I, or anyone else were to start from scratch, well, one would have to build or buy every facet of the game while established companies already have those resources. It'd take -way- more money and be a bigger gamble.

DownTharr:

Money's no real issue, it's passion. Me and many other gamers may like gaming, but have no real passion to want to make games, there are exceptions though. I just personally believe that if you (and it's not just you) have a problem with female representation in games, then do it yourself (Not a complete AAA gaming experience, but tackle this problem and come up with potential answers). I don't know it's just what I'd do.

And sure a games companies have connections, but they don't have money to just throw around, I mean Tomb Raider was considered a failure by Square. Studios are failing and getting bought out and the cost of making AAA rises every year, while the indie games market is growing. It's not all graphics and voice acting, there's heart that can be found in even the cheap, hastily made indie game.

I'd say it's more than "passion." The people behind Aliens Colonial Marines were "passionate" and we saw how that turned out.

Passion isn't everything. Like I said, if there's no marketing, no one will know about it to say the least. Your passion isn't going to put it in the hearts, and minds of the gaming masses.

A lot of games that really took off have strong graphics compared to a lot of indie games. Bastion, Braid, Journey, flower, and so forth. Even as simple as they look they're more complex than one might think.

The video is accurate, sexualization does not occur of men in sci/fi and fantasy. But this is a incomplete assessment. As the sexualization of men for women DOES occur, just in women specific areas like the romance genre. The irony is that if you look at the romance genre and book covers and the stories themselves there is not much different between what both genders typically find what they want to be, and what they want to have sex with. Women want to have sex and objectify the same men that men want to be, and vice versa. As such the difference is tone and perspective. Not actual narrative and what is going on. There is more objectification on the side that isn't the main characters but its about the same when compared.

Take Anita Blake Vampire Hunter, a girl who now is able to copy any supernatural ability used against her and has an ever expanding male harem. Sounds just as bad as any comic or anime when you put it like that huh?

As such there is an imbalance, this is because even in our life time scifi and fantasy was a nerd and geek ghetto, and was ostracized for it. As such it evolved suiting the needs of the people who spent energy either creating it, or supporting it with there money.

As such I don't think sexual objectification is anymore harmful than video game violence. That as long as it is coupled with a rational mind it is nothing than fantasy. And if we worry about the dangers of fantasy on our society, well that is a slippy slope is it not?

And as for the imbalance in video games and scifi/fantasy in general I can't help but see it as looking a coin and being mad that the side with heads on it doesn't have any tails on it either. Of course its going to be imbalanced and that is more the popular consciouses fault then the people involved in it.

If people want a more varied gender appeal well it is happening, but if you want more stuff to appeal to your tastes you might have to take on the same responsibility and risk the original creators did making these items then complaining that there is some sort of responsibility for change.

MrsBloo:

matthew_lane:

"You know what, you'd probably love the decoder ring theatre's free "oldtime radio play" style podcast, called "The Red Panda." You should check it out: Its well worth the listen to, has an interesting female character, filled with moxy & spunk, an is set in the 1930's of Toronto.

http://www.decoderringtheatre.com/shows/red-panda-adventures/

*****I looked it up and I really like the art of the title. I am actually listening to it as i type. Thank you ^_^

No problem, i found it once i realised Marvel & DC could not write a comic to save there collective lives at the moment.

The whole "male gamers don't want to play as female characters" thing boggles my mind. I just don't get it. None of the gamers I know feel this way. Where do the idiots come from? It's baffling and sad.

Rebel_Raven:

DownTharr:

Money's no real issue, it's passion. Me and many other gamers may like gaming, but have no real passion to want to make games, there are exceptions though. I just personally believe that if you (and it's not just you) have a problem with female representation in games, then do it yourself (Not a complete AAA gaming experience, but tackle this problem and come up with potential answers). I don't know it's just what I'd do.

And sure a games companies have connections, but they don't have money to just throw around, I mean Tomb Raider was considered a failure by Square. Studios are failing and getting bought out and the cost of making AAA rises every year, while the indie games market is growing. It's not all graphics and voice acting, there's heart that can be found in even the cheap, hastily made indie game.

I'd say it's more than "passion." The people behind Aliens Colonial Marines were "passionate" and we saw how that turned out.

Passion isn't everything. Like I said, if there's no marketing, no one will know about it to say the least. Your passion isn't going to put it in the hearts, and minds of the gaming masses.

A lot of games that really took off have strong graphics compared to a lot of indie games. Bastion, Braid, Journey, flower, and so forth. Even as simple as they look they're more complex than one might think.

Yes, and money isn't the driving force for those indie devs, it's passion. Yes compared to other indies there beautiful, but they are no crysis, etc and that was my point. You don't need super expensive hyper-real graphics and vast open worlds. Marketing is only useful, once you actually have the game past pre-alpha/alpha and it takes passion and hard work to get there on your own.

Not having the money to make a game is no excuse, not having the passion is though. If it is not something you live and breath to do, don't do it, it'll show. Only after you've made the game can you spend time thinking business.

EDIT: Wait, where'd you first see remember me? I just found it updated on blistered thumbs or some other gaming website I frequent. It caused alot of talk.

DownTharr:

Rebel_Raven:

DownTharr:

Money's no real issue, it's passion. Me and many other gamers may like gaming, but have no real passion to want to make games, there are exceptions though. I just personally believe that if you (and it's not just you) have a problem with female representation in games, then do it yourself (Not a complete AAA gaming experience, but tackle this problem and come up with potential answers). I don't know it's just what I'd do.

And sure a games companies have connections, but they don't have money to just throw around, I mean Tomb Raider was considered a failure by Square. Studios are failing and getting bought out and the cost of making AAA rises every year, while the indie games market is growing. It's not all graphics and voice acting, there's heart that can be found in even the cheap, hastily made indie game.

I'd say it's more than "passion." The people behind Aliens Colonial Marines were "passionate" and we saw how that turned out.

Passion isn't everything. Like I said, if there's no marketing, no one will know about it to say the least. Your passion isn't going to put it in the hearts, and minds of the gaming masses.

A lot of games that really took off have strong graphics compared to a lot of indie games. Bastion, Braid, Journey, flower, and so forth. Even as simple as they look they're more complex than one might think.

Yes, and money isn't the driving force for those indie devs, it's passion. Yes compared to other indies there beautiful, but they are no crysis, etc and that was my point. You don't need super expensive hyper-real graphics and vast open worlds. Marketing is only useful, once you actually have the game past pre-alpha/alpha and it takes passion and hard work to get there on your own.

Not having the money to make a game is no excuse, not having the passion is though. If it is not something you live and breath to do, don't do it, it'll show. Only after you've made the game can you spend time thinking business.

EDIT: Wait, where'd you first see remember me? I just found it updated on blistered thumbs or some other gaming website I frequent. It caused alot of talk.

Passion can drive them, sure, but after that, it's resources.
The way I see it, the graphics have to be good enough that most people won't laugh at it. The world has to be believeable, and at the least, just enough to get the job done. Mechanically it cannot be bleh. If I do make my game I want to throw my all into it, and polish it. It'll require more than just passion.

I still say it's gotta be a blend of both passion, and money. I'm not disagreeing passion is important. Your case for it is strong, but a bad game is a bad game, and there's people who purely want graphics.
W/o Passion Remember Me wouldn't be made.

Huh, where/when I first encountered Remember Me? Well, my life partner was shopping around months ago (I don't recall just how many but it was several) as she, like me, hunts for games with female protagonists and gender select coz we're both so very tired of dudebro time in videogames.
She wandered around amazon and stumbled across it, and then showed it to me. She didn't know a whole lot about it, so I did my part of the process, and started researching it to no end as I have the time, and drive to do so.
She's kinda on the fence about buying it. I'm not, so I'll kinda review it with my own experiences with it for her.

Rebel_Raven:

DownTharr:

Rebel_Raven:

I'd say it's more than "passion." The people behind Aliens Colonial Marines were "passionate" and we saw how that turned out.

Passion isn't everything. Like I said, if there's no marketing, no one will know about it to say the least. Your passion isn't going to put it in the hearts, and minds of the gaming masses.

A lot of games that really took off have strong graphics compared to a lot of indie games. Bastion, Braid, Journey, flower, and so forth. Even as simple as they look they're more complex than one might think.

Yes, and money isn't the driving force for those indie devs, it's passion. Yes compared to other indies there beautiful, but they are no crysis, etc and that was my point. You don't need super expensive hyper-real graphics and vast open worlds. Marketing is only useful, once you actually have the game past pre-alpha/alpha and it takes passion and hard work to get there on your own.

Not having the money to make a game is no excuse, not having the passion is though. If it is not something you live and breath to do, don't do it, it'll show. Only after you've made the game can you spend time thinking business.

EDIT: Wait, where'd you first see remember me? I just found it updated on blistered thumbs or some other gaming website I frequent. It caused alot of talk.

Passion can drive them, sure, but after that, it's resources.
The way I see it, the graphics have to be good enough that most people won't laugh at it. The world has to be believeable, and at the least, just enough to get the job done. Mechanically it cannot be bleh. If I do make my game I want to throw my all into it, and polish it. It'll require more than just passion.

I still say it's gotta be a blend of both passion, and money. I'm not disagreeing passion is important. Your case for it is strong, but a bad game is a bad game, and there's people who purely want graphics.
W/o Passion Remember Me wouldn't be made.

Huh, where/when I first encountered Remember Me? Well, my life partner was shopping around months ago (I don't recall just how many but it was several) as she, like me, hunts for games with female protagonists and gender select coz we're both so very tired of dudebro time in videogames.
She wandered around amazon and stumbled across it, and then showed it to me. She didn't know a whole lot about it, so I did my part of the process, and started researching it to no end as I have the time, and drive to do so.
She's kinda on the fence about buying it. I'm not, so I'll kinda review it with my own experiences with it for her.

I pretty much agree with you, though we can't just wait for companies to change (they're usually slow on this).
And yes bad games happen and if that's your case for proving somethings(female MCs) profitability, you might just ruin it for everyone.

Interesting, I just read it online, though I do think it'll be quite a good game. Not really just because the main character's female, but because of the whole memory thing, it's just something new.

DownTharr:
I pretty much agree with you, though we can't just wait for companies to change (they're usually slow on this).
And yes bad games happen and if that's your case for proving somethings(female MCs) profitability, you might just ruin it for everyone.

Interesting, I just read it online, though I do think it'll be quite a good game. Not really just because the main character's female, but because of the whole memory thing, it's just something new.

And I pretty much agree with you. :P

Something else kinda new to me is that Nilin, the protagonist, is supposed to be non lethal using memory overloads on opponents to take them down as well as memory manipulation. Not very often that games are intended to be no kill runs.

I'm looking forward to the seemingly rather flashy combat, too.

Rebel_Raven:

DownTharr:
I pretty much agree with you, though we can't just wait for companies to change (they're usually slow on this).
And yes bad games happen and if that's your case for proving somethings(female MCs) profitability, you might just ruin it for everyone.

Interesting, I just read it online, though I do think it'll be quite a good game. Not really just because the main character's female, but because of the whole memory thing, it's just something new.

And I pretty much agree with you. :P

Something else kinda new to me is that Nilin, the protagonist, is supposed to be non lethal using memory overloads on opponents to take them down as well as memory manipulation. Not very often that games are intended to be no kill runs.

I'm looking forward to the seemingly rather flashy combat, too.

True outside of stealth games, you usually have to kill things, well there is Phoenix Wright. I'd like to see more games with only talking/debating maybe a spy game of sorts, but not a "super spy".

DownTharr:

Rebel_Raven:

DownTharr:
I pretty much agree with you, though we can't just wait for companies to change (they're usually slow on this).
And yes bad games happen and if that's your case for proving somethings(female MCs) profitability, you might just ruin it for everyone.

Interesting, I just read it online, though I do think it'll be quite a good game. Not really just because the main character's female, but because of the whole memory thing, it's just something new.

And I pretty much agree with you. :P

Something else kinda new to me is that Nilin, the protagonist, is supposed to be non lethal using memory overloads on opponents to take them down as well as memory manipulation. Not very often that games are intended to be no kill runs.

I'm looking forward to the seemingly rather flashy combat, too.

True outside of stealth games, you usually have to kill things, well there is Phoenix Wright. I'd like to see more games with only talking/debating maybe a spy game of sorts, but not a "super spy".

I'd love to see an honest to goodness remake of the Tenchu series with pre-tenchu Z in mind, but with Tenchu Z's character creation, if not better.
Z was a bit of a dissapointment in the lack of multiple enemy layouts, and the fact my significant other just badger ran at everyone and killed them and still got in the stealth kills. <.< Kinda sucks the hunt out of the game. lol

I share your sentiment. I'd like to see more variety in games. Especially for consoles. Diplomacy, debate, and wits over bloodshed, and such. People have played some games like Fallout, and Dishonored in a no kill run. Dunno how they did it, though since I kinda like my head removal service in fallout 3/new vegas. Raiders are just so fun to shoot. :P
Still, I'd possibly buy a game geared to more peaceful means to an end. Unless I had to be a dude. <.< :P

Jimothy Sterling:

Sir Christopher McFarlane:
Yeah, Jim, stop talking about this immediately!

What I like is that you posted what was *really* wanting to be said.

"This is getting old" is always a reliable way to mask, "I dislike this topic."

Since this is in text format you can jump to assumptions all you want but without a voice and tone added to it you have no way of proving this other then your own belief.

DoctorImpossible:
The whole "male gamers don't want to play as female characters" thing boggles my mind. I just don't get it. None of the gamers I know feel this way. Where do the idiots come from? It's baffling and sad.

Usually it's the opposite they play female characters to either eye them, a buddy from work, or some other reason, my brother. Me I don't care if I play a female character because I like to imagine my shape-shifting character showing up and saying "Hey you! I'm stealing this role and dressing up as you." and they would respond, "What?" and then my character proceeds to punching them in the face and imagine all the whimsical reactions the other characters to said character going missing.

DoctorImpossible:
The whole "male gamers don't want to play as female characters" thing boggles my mind. I just don't get it. None of the gamers I know feel this way. Where do the idiots come from? It's baffling and sad.

Hi there, idiot reporting in. Well actually not entirely, it's not that i don't want to play as a female character (I had a female mage in WoW and i played Tomb Raider) but i most certainly prefer playing as a male character. Why? Because as a male I can relate myself, self-insert, whatever you wanna call it, with male characters more.

Rebel_Raven:

You say you're not against making a game with a female protagonist, yet you're against making an unprofitable game? Sort of the same thing, isn't it? What's hinging on you not making the game? A female protagonist. Not the quality of the protagonist, not the quality of the game, nor any other apparent factor that oculd make, or break the game.
If you're not willing, it's not going to happen, the market will never see your gamble, and the market won't be budged by it, so people aren't willing to make a female protagonist game. It's a vicious cycle, isn't it?

No there is a difference. If I were against the making of a game with a female protagonist than the fact it has a female protagonist would be the reason why. Meanwhile if it's against the making of an unprofitable game than the lack of sales would be the reason. And what would be hinging me not making the game is the lack of profitability. In this scenario the fact it's a female protagonist, but it could also be because the genre of the game is a saturated niche market too.

And like i said, you don't need to confront people with "your gamble" to be able to determine (though in marketing it's always more of a guess than anything else) whether or not something can be profitable. If you have a project for a business you'll better be able to prove it's not a pure gamble. This is how it works in the whole business world.

Also you're talking about making genres. I'm not. I'm talking about games in general. Female Friendly gaming isn't a genre any more than male friendly gaming. I'm not even going as far as anyone-friendly. My sights are more on more female protagonists in games that aren't terrible. That might have some added benefit in being more friendly to female gamers, but that's not in my sights.

But that's how a marketeer would see it. How the changes interact with the market. A specific genre interacts differently with the market as an other. Just like a game with hyper-sexualized female characters or a male protagonist interacts with the market differently as a game with non-sexualized female characters or a female protagonist. In this debate why it interacts differently with the market is irrelevant, it's how it interacts which matters, will it yield €€€ or not?

Making a game with a female protagonist wouldn't be as huge of a gamble if it didn't suck, 'm sure. It'd be even less of a gamble if it came from a company already established working in within their main genre. Like I said, if there was a Sleeping Dogs (Square Enix), or GTA (R*) DLC side story in the vein of "liberty city stories" it'd be even less of a gamble, and not require as much money as they'd be using pre-existing resources for the game. Further, because of the game's following (at least as far as GTA goes) people might be more inclined to give it a try because it comes from people recognized as worthwhile companies.

Even if we assume that it wouldn't cost too many resources companies are pressured continuously to use every penny in the most lucrative way. If a company can chose between investing 100k € in a DLC which certainly yield profits or one which is a gamble it's obvious where the money will go. That's why you need to be able to provide substantial evidence the gamble can yield a considerable amount of money or isn't such a gamble. Something that can be done through market researches but which i have never seen provided to back up the claim that the market isn't skewed towards wanting strong male characters.

But like I said, there's a hell of a lot more reasons a game will fail than the protagonist.
If the game sucks, no one will play it, male or female protagonist.
If no one hears about the game, people are less likely to buy it because it flew under their radar. The gender of the protagonist doesn't matter there either in general.
Heck, the only reason I know about "Remember Me" is that I'm actively looking for games that have a female protagonist, or gender select that doesn't reward you more for being the guy.

As towards investors not being happy if the game flopped, well, it'd be better to use pre-existing resources as much as possible to limit the financial loss, wouldn't it? It's why DLC addons are cheaper, isn't it?

If I, or anyone else were to start from scratch, well, one would have to build or buy every facet of the game while established companies already have those resources. It'd take -way- more money and be a bigger gamble.

It's correct that games can fail for many reasons. But why add a potential reason for disappointing sales? The big question is along the lines of: what would sell better: GTA with Tommy Vercetti or Marietta Vercetti? MGS with Solid Snake (male) or Solid Taco (female) (yes that joke is of a very poor taste).

And off course it would be a bigger gamble for a starting company. But do you think the shareholders of EA, Rockstar, Activision, etc. Care about the risks other companies take?

Rebel_Raven:
I share your sentiment. I'd like to see more variety in games. Especially for consoles. Diplomacy, debate, and wits over bloodshed, and such. People have played some games like Fallout, and Dishonored in a no kill run. Dunno how they did it, though since I kinda like my head removal service in fallout 3/new vegas. Raiders are just so fun to shoot. :P
Still, I'd possibly buy a game geared to more peaceful means to an end. Unless I had to be a dude. <.< :P

Never played Tenchi, but I understand the sentiment.

Well with the amount of interactive narrative that'd need to be written, I'd let it slide if it was only male or female, etc. The Walking Dead focused on a black man from the south (not my demographic), but the way the character was written I grew to like him a lot. It's more about how the character/game are written (even a scene with no VO, is written) some current games companies still don't know how to tell a story through game-play.

Are you fine with Professor Layton and Phoenix Wright? Or would you rather they be women, there definitely not "dudebros".

Well I don't know about peaceful, some conversations can seem quite trite, but underneath they're waging a battle of wits. My idea being, say it's the cold war and there's a Russian and American spy, they can't resort to any sort of standard violence (like most games) and in stead have to use more "peaceful", manipulative ways to deal with the problem. Absolutely no combat, if any it'd just be a failure state. Not sure how many people would even want such a game.

Personally I find Bethesda titles are far too shallow in their dialogue systems, though they are quite deep in exploration and are good for role-playing.

Jim well done. This is the first one to get me to think that my own ideas were wrong on the subject. Which I must give it high marks for that. My idea on the subject was that both were done for the sake of fantasy. Most men and woman's fantasy as being this. Since most woman are shown as the object without any flaws as there fantasy. See Charmed for example. Now I am starting to think I am wrong on the subject. I must applaud you for that.

MrsBloo:

Lightknight:
Actually, I moreso meant that Nintendo products are typically less exploitative of female sexuality.

^^ i feel like this is only true because nintendo, personally, appeals to kids more than adults.

The reason doesn't matter. The result remains the same.

*may i add once the wii fit came out, majority of women who wanted the wii were of elder age to keep in shape not necessarily for gaming experience. :\ I knew atleast 5+ elder women who got it just for the wii fit. and have never touched it since...

"usage days for males and females are much closer for wii and ps3. On average, the least used console is the Wii."

Do you have any sources to back up these statements?

*I think the reason why the type of gamer is being considered here is because if someone who hardly plays games wants to put in an opinion fine, however they are not of the masses that attribute to the cause. Ya know? Im not sure my word usage is 100 % how i want it to be, but hopefully this makes sense.

example: Would you rather listen to your dr or nurse? naturally your doctor because they are that much more knowledgeable about the situations in the air of the profession.

? I'm not sure how this relates to anything you and I have been discussing. I certainly haven't stated that I think casual gamers are the mainstream AAA game purchasers. I even called ESRB's survey into question when it turned out that less than 50% of the respondents were even planning to buy one game within 2012. LESS than half. So much of their results are questionable with so broad a definition of gameing.

generals3:
~snip~

Bottom line for me is, until companies make things change, and the gaming community can accept those changes, things will never change.

I'm not going to relent my stance in the face of any argument that supports the misogynistic status quo that, IMHO, needs to go. No excuse is acceptable to me.

It seems like we're going to have to agree to disagree on this one. That's alright with me, but I dunno about you.

DownTharr:

Rebel_Raven:
I share your sentiment. I'd like to see more variety in games. Especially for consoles. Diplomacy, debate, and wits over bloodshed, and such. People have played some games like Fallout, and Dishonored in a no kill run. Dunno how they did it, though since I kinda like my head removal service in fallout 3/new vegas. Raiders are just so fun to shoot. :P
Still, I'd possibly buy a game geared to more peaceful means to an end. Unless I had to be a dude. <.< :P

Never played Tenchi, but I understand the sentiment.

Well with the amount of interactive narrative that'd need to be written, I'd let it slide if it was only male or female, etc. The Walking Dead focused on a black man from the south (not my demographic), but the way the character was written I grew to like him a lot. It's more about how the character/game are written (even a scene with no VO, is written) some current games companies still don't know how to tell a story through game-play.

Are you fine with Professor Layton and Phoenix Wright? Or would you rather they be women, there definitely not "dudebros".

Well I don't know about peaceful, some conversations can seem quite trite, but underneath they're waging a battle of wits. My idea being, say it's the cold war and there's a Russian and American spy, they can't resort to any sort of standard violence (like most games) and in stead have to use more "peaceful", manipulative ways to deal with the problem. Absolutely no combat, if any it'd just be a failure state. Not sure how many people would even want such a game.

Personally I find Bethesda titles are far too shallow in their dialogue systems, though they are quite deep in exploration and are good for role-playing.

Tenchu is one of the best stealth series for the most part. They reward you for not being seen, not alerting people, and can go through some missions avoiding everyone but your target completely. there's occassional bosses.
You're a ninja with the typical, and a-typical ninja tools like blowguns, poisoned riceballs being mainstays in the series, and explosive pinwheels in some later series. Of course you have a sword, or two, and can pull off some insta-kills with them. Still, the main focus of the game isn't really combat, and you get some penalties if you're spotted anyhow.
You work in a somewhat neutral manner for a Daimyo that sends you out to assasinate corrupt politicians, and kill enemies, and so forth.

The age of the series might mean you can nab it on the cheap.

Honestly, I'd rather the protagonist be female either by design, or gender choice. I relate to women better. I know I'm missing out, but my funds are a bit limited on top of that, to go trying a game I may not enjoy because of a lack of immersion, and a new gaming system on top of it compounds the issue.

Bethesda, despite being pretty buggy at times, I can appreciate a lot. Yeah, it's shallow in areas, and you rarely do anything to alter the world itself, but the vast amount of possibility is pretty much enough. Skyrim, and New Vegas supporting some LGBT(well, maybe not so much the T part) relationships didn't hurt either.

Objectifying or not, there's no doubt that they're selling an unrealistic/unhealthy body image. You claim that they're not actively trying to market these games to women, okay. Then I guess they are being accidentally objectified.

llagrok:
Objectifying or not, there's no doubt that they're selling an unrealistic/unhealthy body image.

*opens game box*

Um... No

*shakes out contents of game box*

Oh here it is... Oh, no, sorry, my mistake, thats the game manual.

*sorts through games contents*

Nope, no unrealistic body images in side this box... Just a computer game. If you've acidentally purchased an unrealistic body image with your game, i'd take it back, because that might be a product defect.

/sarcasm

Honestly if you are going to computer games as a place to get your body image then you need to stop playing computer games immediately & sign yourself into a sanitarium.

llagrok:
You claim that they're not actively trying to market these games to women, okay. Then I guess they are being accidentally objectified.

/facepalm. There is no objectification involved at all: Exactly like the existance of romance novels & there fact they are written for a preodminately female audience isn't suddenly objectifying men.

llagrok:
Objectifying or not, there's no doubt that they're selling an unrealistic/unhealthy body image. You claim that they're not actively trying to market these games to women, okay. Then I guess they are being accidentally objectified.

the only games "selling" realistic body images are games like C&C which feature real actors. Because all the other stuff in games are pixels representing unrealistic "stuff" or persons. If you're letting a bunch of pixels which portray something obviously not real influence you than the problem is you, not the games. It's like those people who claim violent videogames turn people into murderous mad men. I have no doubt some people become more violent because of those games, but let's not punish everyone because some people take games too seriously.

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