Jimquisition: Objectification And... Men?

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Raiyan 1.0:

Antigonius:
When I see these kind of threads, I'm happy that I live in Ukraine where none of normal adequate humans are giving a damn about not only objectifying women as equal, but objectifying anything at all.

You see: when you live in a almost-ideal world, people are getting some faggy shit in their heads, instead of being productive members of society.

Stop giving a damn about some stupid stuff and make the your own things: make indie games, or a comic, or a film, or a zoethrope where your Main H is whatever the hell you want, instead of whining

When you can stop throwing words around like "faggy shit", come have a civil conversation.

Ok, how would you like to call it? IMO?

This is a thread where "civil" conversation will wither and die because of one simple formula: My opinion + Your opinion = a massive shitstorm.

These kind of themes are usually don't have right or wrong opinion, you either don't care, or ending up spaming endlessly for one of the sides. And your quote clearly tells that you ran out of options to say because of our massive over-bloated self opinion

matthew_lane:

th3dark3rsh33p:
There are bad men, and by yourself in certain places you should always be cautious. Thinking all men are rapists or have the emotional/mental capability to rape you is just a vile and disgusting way to view half the population of the world. I'm sorry but it's just provably wrong, and you truly believe that to be the case you need to get help and talk to someone.

Just this all purpose generalization. All women should be afraid of men, because men are nothing but muscles and a dick that want to rape you. Yeah... that people is an example of acceptable hate speech. Gotta love it.

Yep... If its white, male & hetrosexual its a-okay to rage & hate... For these white hetrosexual men are the devil... They rape at the drop of a hat (never drop a hat near them), who destroy everything around them & never build anything in society. An male sexuality, don't even get me started: Totally toxic & dangerous.

Yeah, it does get a little silly as a line of argumentation when you get right down to it. Its completely unfounded by reality, yet so many silly people who this view.

How about I just take solace in the fact that people like you are in for a future of heartache and dissatisfaction, because SOCIETY IS GOING TO CHANGE and there is nothing you can do about it.

Just ask your parents and grandparents. If they haven't already I bet they will give you an earful about how horrible society is today compared to when they were kids. They too fought unsuccessfully to keep the status quo.

The tears, I can already taste them, and they are delicious!

White heterosexual men cant even elect a president anymore, poor babies. trololololol

Rebel_Raven:
Honestly, I'd rather the protagonist be female either by design, or gender choice. I relate to women better. I know I'm missing out, but my funds are a bit limited on top of that, to go trying a game I may not enjoy because of a lack of immersion, and a new gaming system on top of it compounds the issue.

Bethesda, despite being pretty buggy at times, I can appreciate a lot. Yeah, it's shallow in areas, and you rarely do anything to alter the world itself, but the vast amount of possibility is pretty much enough. Skyrim, and New Vegas supporting some LGBT(well, maybe not so much the T part) relationships didn't hurt either.

thanks for the summary of Tenchu, might look into it.

Ok makes sense, though I just want well written, believable and memorable characters. The problem is to do this for gaming, it's expensive and requires a leader/designer with vision, also free reign from the publisher.

Game development requires you to make a game before you can see what works and what does not, so basically Alpha would be the first draft of the script, a more expensive and longer first draft. Sometimes they might not have money left over to do it again and are forced to stick with it. Many accomplished authors have said that they rewrite there whole book quite a few times to get it just right, but if a development studio did this, they'd be out of a job.

Hopefully some sort of innovation can make developing story driven games cheaper.

Yeah I like my Bethesda, to a point, but I prefer the structure found in a more linear game, even if I'll only play it once. Yeah the gay strippers(?) caused quite the flutter of news for New Vegas.

generals3:

the only games "selling" realistic body images are games like C&C which feature real actors. Because all the other stuff in games are pixels representing unrealistic "stuff" or persons. If you're letting a bunch of pixels which portray something obviously not real influence you than the problem is you, not the games. It's like those people who claim violent videogames turn people into murderous mad men. I have no doubt some people become more violent because of those games, but let's not punish everyone because some people take games too seriously.

Anorexia nervosa and related conditions are genetically-based psychological conditions and not as it often claimed to be psychological disorders centered around the consumption of media. So in reality it's more like claiming that peanuts should be henceforth banned from human consumption on the grounds that some people just don't care for the taste of peanuts, and other people might suffer from allergic reactions from their consumption. Incidentally I'd like to know back Feminism has set back the search for a cure for anorexia nervosa by peddling their bullshit about how Baywatch and Barbie Dolls has ruined the health of these poor, unfortunate souls.

And no, that doesn't make a whole lot of sense either, but take a look around at some of the types you're arguing with.

Paradoxrifts:

Rebel_Raven:

the only games "selling" realistic body images are games like C&C which feature real actors. Because all the other stuff in games are pixels representing unrealistic "stuff" or persons. If you're letting a bunch of pixels which portray something obviously not real influence you than the problem is you, not the games. It's like those people who claim violent videogames turn people into murderous mad men. I have no doubt some people become more violent because of those games, but let's not punish everyone because some people take games too seriously.

Anorexia nervosa and related conditions are genetically-based psychological conditions and not as it often claimed to be psychological disorders centered around the consumption of media. So in reality it's more like claiming that peanuts should be henceforth banned from human consumption on the grounds that some people just don't care for the taste of peanuts, and other people might suffer from allergic reactions from their consumption. Incidentally I'd like to know back Feminism has set back the search for a cure for anorexia nervosa by peddling their bullshit about how Baywatch and Barbie Dolls has ruined the health of these poor, unfortunate souls.

And no, that doesn't make a whole lot of sense either, but take a look around at some of the types you're arguing with.

o.O How the heck are you quoting me with that? I've never said that.

DownTharr:

Rebel_Raven:
Honestly, I'd rather the protagonist be female either by design, or gender choice. I relate to women better. I know I'm missing out, but my funds are a bit limited on top of that, to go trying a game I may not enjoy because of a lack of immersion, and a new gaming system on top of it compounds the issue.

Bethesda, despite being pretty buggy at times, I can appreciate a lot. Yeah, it's shallow in areas, and you rarely do anything to alter the world itself, but the vast amount of possibility is pretty much enough. Skyrim, and New Vegas supporting some LGBT(well, maybe not so much the T part) relationships didn't hurt either.

thanks for the summary of Tenchu, might look into it.

Ok makes sense, though I just want well written, believable and memorable characters. The problem is to do this for gaming, it's expensive and requires a leader/designer with vision, also free reign from the publisher.

Game development requires you to make a game before you can see what works and what does not, so basically Alpha would be the first draft of the script, a more expensive and longer first draft. Sometimes they might not have money left over to do it again and are forced to stick with it. Many accomplished authors have said that they rewrite there whole book quite a few times to get it just right, but if a development studio did this, they'd be out of a job.

Hopefully some sort of innovation can make developing story driven games cheaper.

Yeah I like my Bethesda, to a point, but I prefer the structure found in a more linear game, even if I'll only play it once. Yeah the gay strippers(?) caused quite the flutter of news for New Vegas.

Yeah, I'm hoping something happens in game development to see more female protagonists.

I can't imagine a novelist being 75% done with a 500 page book, happy, but scrapping it all for some reason. And even a novelist gets deadlines, and pressure to finish, so it's not entirely diffirent, just on a seemingly smaller scale.
Proofreading, and adjusting, and recycling sounds more likely.

Gay strippers in new vegas? Last thing on my mind. I'm talking about Arcade, and Veronica not being straight (the latter also having a pretty interesting story with it), and Cass at least being open to the idea of bi-sexuality.

Rebel_Raven:
o.O How the heck are you quoting me with that? I've never said that.

Then you have my apologies on the quote salad.

Jarimir:
How about I just take solace in the fact that people like you are in for a future of heartache and dissatisfaction, because SOCIETY IS GOING TO CHANGE and there is nothing you can do about it.

Just ask your parents and grandparents. If they haven't already I bet they will give you an earful about how horrible society is today compared to when they were kids. They too fought unsuccessfully to keep the status quo.

The tears, I can already taste them, and they are delicious!

White heterosexual men cant even elect a president anymore, poor babies. trololololol

Except there were less of his grandparents generation then there were of his parents generation, and then there were less of his generation then there were of his parents generation, assuming that he is a white, heterosexual male somewhere in his twenties or thirties of course. The alliance that the New Left has cobbled together from social & economic progressives will only continue to function within the shadow of the Republican party. whose cultural predominance is even now crumbling away into the pages of history.

See the problem with political alliances that are founded on the opposition of others is that they frequently cease functioning the day after the opposition is vanquished. And then the day after the revolution when they start throwing people under the campaign bus I think that you will realise that you traded one brand of social conservatism for another.

You'll just pay more taxes under the new brand then you did the old brand. :D

Rebel_Raven:
Yeah, I'm hoping something happens in game development to see more female protagonists.

I can't imagine a novelist being 75% done with a 500 page book, happy, but scrapping it all for some reason. And even a novelist gets deadlines, and pressure to finish, so it's not entirely diffirent, just on a seemingly smaller scale.
Proofreading, and adjusting, and recycling sounds more likely.

Gay strippers in new vegas? Last thing on my mind. I'm talking about Arcade, and Veronica not being straight (the latter also having a pretty interesting story with it), and Cass at least being open to the idea of bi-sexuality.

Eh, I was speaking hearsay never played it, so thanks for correcting me.

Some authors can do it all in one go, but I meant more like you think up a story then you write it out and after you did such you see all of it's flaws, then you repeat this until the deadline. Anecdotally I've found only while writing do I learn what I actually want to write, then I write that. Take that as you will.

Rough drafts are just cheaper and faster for novelists, compared to game developers.

Paradoxrifts:

Rebel_Raven:
o.O How the heck are you quoting me with that? I've never said that.

Then you have my apologies on the quote salad.

'z all good, then. Just making sure I knew you knew something was awry, there.

DownTharr:

Rebel_Raven:
Yeah, I'm hoping something happens in game development to see more female protagonists.

I can't imagine a novelist being 75% done with a 500 page book, happy, but scrapping it all for some reason. And even a novelist gets deadlines, and pressure to finish, so it's not entirely diffirent, just on a seemingly smaller scale.
Proofreading, and adjusting, and recycling sounds more likely.

Gay strippers in new vegas? Last thing on my mind. I'm talking about Arcade, and Veronica not being straight (the latter also having a pretty interesting story with it), and Cass at least being open to the idea of bi-sexuality.

Eh, I was speaking hearsay never played it, so thanks for correcting me.

Some authors can do it all in one go, but I meant more like you think up a story then you write it out and after you did such you see all of it's flaws, then you repeat this until the deadline. Anecdotally I've found only while writing do I learn what I actually want to write, then I write that. Take that as you will.

Rough drafts are just cheaper and faster for novelists, compared to game developers.

Yeah, New vegas is pretty open minded with things. Mature, I dare say. Excellent game as well.

Also I pretty much agree with ya.

I cannot agree with Jim on this. Both men and women are visually idealized versions pretty far removed from the real world, in most games that feature either.

When was the last time you played an overweight computer geek in a heavy shooter? No? Never? How come, I doubt all members of the armies of the world looks like Kratos. But if you idealize girls bodies in the same way, then its sexist. Bullshit double standards.

Homo Carnivorous:
I cannot agree with Jim on this. Both men and women are visually idealized versions pretty far removed from the real world, in most games that feature either.

When was the last time you played an overweight computer geek in a heavy shooter? No? Never? How come, I doubt all members of the armies of the world looks like Kratos. But if you idealize girls bodies in the same way, then its sexist. Bullshit double standards.

True, putting aside the different idealised visions most men and women find in the opposite sex, e.g. in 'general' (notice im emphasising general as this is not true of absolutely every man and woman of course) men and women find different things attractive in the opposite sex so holding up 'look look women are in skimpy outfits and the men aren't' makes no sense what so ever. I agree that a lot of females in games look over the top but then again so do the men and these are often in hyper stylised worlds. Anyway my point is that men are attacted primerily to physical beauty before they really know the person, this shouldn't come as a surprise to anyone however women have more criteria in initial attractiveness that does not rely solely on how good looking the guy is, women look for status in a man and this can be how successful he is, how confident and how 'brave' he is, in short how much of a 'man' he is (Women never have to prove themselves to be a real Woman but how often do you hear 'Be a man, your not a real man' etc in real life or media?).
Jim raises the point that the objectification is not equal or that men are not objectified at all (I think they 100% are but in a slightly different way) but I would argue that they are two sides to the same coin and just because devs are mostly men does not mean they are pumping out a helpful image of men and most gamers may not even realise that the typical man in a game is a reflection of what we are tought to be... disposable. Women may be generally portrayed in a juvenile light but men are generally portrayed as having no worth what so ever and the only way they can gain that worth is in killing people in horrific ways or dying for others (men, women and children) so why is this issue never brought up but 'oww look big tits I feel bad for female gamers' is? Jim just keeps saying it's a different issue and never tackles it, he has multiple episodes on sexism relating to women but none for men, Kotaku has none, no one does! the part that irritates me the most is this clear double standard and the problems men face in society doesn't help eleviate my eye rolling every time I see an article relating to big tits in games, men have so little self worth and issues effecting men and boys just aren't given the time of day so it is no surprise that male cancer and other health issues relating to males, homelessness, suicide, deaths at work, feminised education, circumcision, domestic abuse, seperation from children and public image either have a greater impact on men or have less awareness/funding than the equivalent in women.

Homo Carnivorous:
I cannot agree with Jim on this. Both men and women are visually idealized versions pretty far removed from the real world, in most games that feature either.

When was the last time you played an overweight computer geek in a heavy shooter? No? Never? How come, I doubt all members of the armies of the world looks like Kratos. But if you idealize girls bodies in the same way, then its sexist. Bullshit double standards.

I'll grant you that men, and women are physically sexualized, but the point of this video flew WAY over your head.

Look at your game library. How many of your games star a woman you play as solely? How many have gender select that isn't MMORPG type stuff?

The point Jim is making is that Men often have something a woman in a game does not. Agency. What's the deal with that?

Definition of AGENCY

1 a : the office or function of an agent

b : the relationship between a principal and that person's agent

2 : the capacity, condition, or state of acting or of exerting power : operation

3 : a person or thing through which power is exerted or an end is achieved : instrumentality <communicated through the agency of the ambassador>

4 : an establishment engaged in doing business for another [an advertising agency]

5 : an administrative division (as of a government) <the agency for consumer protection>

Jim, IMO, is pushing towards definition 2, and 3 as the vast majority of playable characters are male, they get the ever important Agency.
With that Agency the protagonist becomes more idealized as they are supposedly the ideal agent of your will. Understand?

Who's the majority of playable characters? Males.
Women rarely get this agency as they're rarely playable and thus are more objects in the game's plot. Thus, objectified.

The playable character decides a great deal of what happens in a game. Who dies, who lives, if there's a relationship, how the game ends. They have immense ammounts of power, and that power is a power fantasy, regardless of eastern, or western origins.

Further elaborating, the agency is often NOT equally distributed. It doesn't help that males dominate the protagonist list, either. There are a few games that break this, but they are extremely rare. Mass Effect series, and the Dragon Age series come to mind, but that's about it.

Relationships? Pretty rare a woman gets to initiate it with anyone,and pretty rare it's shown especially with a guy. Meanwhile it's often the driving force of a male protagonist. How often does a the playable woman kiss a guy in a game?
Jim practically spells this out here: http://www.escapistmagazine.com/videos/view/jimquisition/7044-The-Creepy-Cull-of-Female-Protagonists
Women get to be sex objects, but heaven forbid they want sex! No, that'd make the male gamer feel weird! A guy playing a girl kissing another guy!
Sure you can have a straight marriage as a woman in Skyrim, but what interaction do you really have? Lets look at Fable. I don't recal anything really -happening- with the female protagonist, and the male NPC. Lets not forget there was, what? one fable with gender select?

Sims? Sure. Not very indepth, that, though.

Lets look deeper, still, now that it occurs to me! Jim uses Kratos as an example. NOT entirely because of his physical apperance, and prowess. He gets to have relationships with many many women. He had a family. A daughter.

Then cut to Ayame in Dead or Alive. Compared to Kratos, she's pretty celibate. All she -really- gets to do is show off her body, and fight, basically, right?

How often does the woman have to, or even get to save a guy, especially their "prince?" When are the roles of saving the princess ever reversed? When does the princess save a dude, and she gets the happy ending? ... Considering I go well out of my way to get games with female protagonsits over males, I can't really recall unless it's a gender select game like Skyrim where I saved several dudes BUT none were my "prince" and that basically blows the skyrim example out of the water.

Long ago Ayane saves Rikimaru who was captured in Tenchu, but he's not her prince as opposed to a co-worker.

Those are just examples of the imbalance of agency even when a woman gets it. Generally SEXIST, no?

As far as examples go, lets take mass Effect, dragon age, and Skyrim (that's what? 7 games? vs the thousands over thousands with male protagonsits, and NONE of them star a female lead, instead have gender select.) off the table. You don't get to bring them up not because they're invalidated, but for the sake of this topic think of other games. Infact, while we're at it, lets take EVERY game with gender select off the table as examples, shall we? Lets think of other games.

Lets point out summore sexism, shall we? Videogame publishers are telling game developers they can NOT have female protagonists. Bioshock Infinite got remade to not have Elizabeth, the most important woman in the game, possibly the most important character on the cover in favor of dudebro style.
Last of Us developers Naughtydog had to FIGHT to keep the sidekick young girl on the cover. C'mon, seriously? they had to fight for that?

The status quo in gaming is sexist, and mysoginistic. Full stop. Stop being superficial looking only at sexualized appearances of characters. Dig deeper. Think about it. Maybe listen to Jim's entire notion?

TLDR:
Pay attention to more than the physical appearance for sexism, and misoginy. Think more on Jim's entire message. Look at the lives the playable characters get to lead between male, and female protagonists, and how often the protagonist you play as is only female with no option for gender select.
The inequality aughta be obvious, then.

matthew_lane:

No problem, i found it once i realised Marvel & DC could not write a comic to save there collective lives at the moment.

shame on you, all writers have blocks sometimes. when you down talk dc i just naturally want to stick up for them. :D lol

Lightknight:

The reason doesn't matter. The result remains the same.

To you the reason doesnt matter. however Im pretty sure reason alone stands for what to build towards. Building towards the appeal of children [or child like/more playful content], will have a different out come than to appeal to the elder generation.

Dont get me wrong i play/own most game systems except XBOX [dont care for it at all] & I know Nintendo appeals to both mature and non mature content. im sure some of us remember conkers bad fur day?lol old but still nintendo. Does anyone remember how the sunflowers boobs for totally fun to bounce on? -_- lol really?
-Anyway, Im not disagreeing with you, im just saying almost every company has some type of female sexuality exploited.[not sure if i put this sentence correct but its monday morning :p] however Nintendo seems to be more family friendly, hence more appealing for parents to buy their kids, has more games for the smaller, younger audience they arent going to be sexually explicit of females. But ps3, and xbox doesnt have that much appeal to ages 8 and under, they will most def. sell sex. and will appeal to probably ages 8+ whether they plan to or not. Though some games are nice for younger people, flower and stuff. majority are 13+ and warn of mature content.

Lightknight:
Do you have any sources to back up these statements?

My statement was aimed at your statement here: "But women in aggregate(gathered together to form a total quantity), they do prefer the wii, or at least 80% of all female gamers did in 2009."

And it stands. Again I am not disagreeing with you simply adding more facts on why females "prefer" wii[again you stated 2009 studied, as i did]

* Wii: The best-selling of the three systems, appeals to boys age 6-11 and women age 25-34. Usage of Wii by women 35+ is much higher than with the Xbox 360 and PS3. Games such as Wii Fit, Guitar Hero and Rock Band appear to have engaged an older female gamer like never before.

Usage of Wii by the 18-24 age group, considered the core/hardcore gaming segment, is low for both genders compared to the other two consoles. However, Wii has been successful in broadening the gaming market to a wider demographic audience.

If you want the proof look it up. Its posted all over with the rest of 2009 statistics. I never said females didnt prefer the wii. Just that the wii produces certain games that appeal to certain age groups. :)[some that never even use it anymore]

Lightknight:
I'm not sure how this relates to anything you and I have been discussing. I certainly haven't stated that I think casual gamers are the mainstream AAA game purchasers. I even called ESRB's survey into question when it turned out that less than 50% of the respondents were even planning to buy one game within 2012. LESS than half. So much of their results are questionable with so broad a definition of gameing.

I dont think i stated it was for something we discussed, because we have not discussed before. :) Simply putting light in a situation where both sides should be known. I also did not say you stated anything so you dont have to feel the need to defend yourself. :)

MrsBloo:
To you the reason doesnt matter. however Im pretty sure reason alone stands for what to build towards. Building towards the appeal of children [or child like/more playful content], will have a different out come than to appeal to the elder generation.

Dont get me wrong i play/own most game systems except XBOX [dont care for it at all] & I know Nintendo appeals to both mature and non mature content. im sure some of us remember conkers bad fur day?lol old but still nintendo. Does anyone remember how the sunflowers boobs for totally fun to bounce on? -_- lol really?
-Anyway, Im not disagreeing with you, im just saying almost every company has some type of female sexuality exploited.[not sure if i put this sentence correct but its monday morning :p] however Nintendo seems to be more family friendly, hence more appealing for parents to buy their kids, has more games for the smaller, younger audience they arent going to be sexually explicit of females. But ps3, and xbox doesnt have that much appeal to ages 8 and under, they will most def. sell sex. and will appeal to probably ages 8+ whether they plan to or not. Though some games are nice for younger people, flower and stuff. majority are 13+ and warn of mature content.

Oh, absolutely. But Nintendo's brand and products on a whole are a lot more children friendly and less exploitative of women in general as one side of the same coin of being kid-friendly. You stated that they were kid friendly yourself so we likely don't disagree as much as I thought we did. Perhaps any.

FYI, my 360 is solely my console to play Kinect games when my guests wish to slice fruit in mid-air (seriously, fruit Ninja on kinect is all kinds of fun) or when my wife and her friends want to Just Dance. It is also for the exclusives the system has an little else.

My ps3 is my main media center (I believe it to be the easiest console to navigate between media types and the GUI simply looks nicer) and I generally love their exclusives as well as generally play many of my games there.

My pc is my solo game machine of choice at the moment. I can play in-depth RPGs and long winded games without taking up the living room TV.

My Wii is for Mario Party games and little else. I've been bored playing as a Plumber since the early 2000's so I'm glad I got it super cheap.

My statement was aimed at your statement here: "But women in aggregate(gathered together to form a total quantity), they do prefer the wii, or at least 80% of all female gamers did in 2009."

And it stands. Again I am not disagreeing with you simply adding more facts on why females "prefer" wii[again you stated 2009 studied, as i did]

* Wii: The best-selling of the three systems, appeals to boys age 6-11 and women age 25-34. Usage of Wii by women 35+ is much higher than with the Xbox 360 and PS3. Games such as Wii Fit, Guitar Hero and Rock Band appear to have engaged an older female gamer like never before.

Usage of Wii by the 18-24 age group, considered the core/hardcore gaming segment, is low for both genders compared to the other two consoles. However, Wii has been successful in broadening the gaming market to a wider demographic audience.

If you want the proof look it up. Its posted all over with the rest of 2009 statistics. I never said females didnt prefer the wii. Just that the wii produces certain games that appeal to certain age groups. :)[some that never even use it anymore]

Your definition of elder and my own must differ considerably. The elderly in general took a liking to the Wii. By elderly I mean retirement age and beyond.

I dont think i stated it was for something we discussed, because we have not discussed before. :) Simply putting light in a situation where both sides should be known. I also did not say you stated anything so you dont have to feel the need to defend yourself. :)

Cool, I wasn't sure if I said something I wasn't aware of or if you thought I believed something I didn't.

Chilly Rama:
men are attacted primerily to physical beauty before they really know the person

They what? you'd almost think they were some kind of mammal! To some degree this is true.

Jim's crusade on this issue has the unpleasant stench of feminism and its eternal double standards to it. I find myself in agreement with a lot of your observations.

Rebel_Raven:

I'll grant you that men, and women are physically sexualized, but the point of this video flew WAY over your head.

Thats a pretty arrogant thing to say. I simply do not buy the basic premise of the point Jim is trying to make.

The point Jim is making is that Men often have something a woman in a game does not. Agency. What's the deal with that?

Money. If there are more males in the audience, which was the case for a long time then choosing a male as lead character is a safer bet.
I think its changing as publishers realize that girls who grew up in the age of consoles are just as eager players. Also, don't forget that RPG's have for a long time had the option to play the role of a female. Fighting games includes female characters that are every inch as caricatured as are the male characters.

Jim, IMO, is pushing towards definition 2, and 3 as the vast majority of playable characters are male,

As has the vast majority of paying costumers been for decades.

they get the ever important Agency.

Of being either a killer or killed. That tends to be the extend of it, unless you play RPG's in which case chances are you can play as whatever sex you want to.

With that Agency the protagonist becomes more idealized as they are supposedly the ideal agent of your will. Understand?

They are a caricature. Masculinity on steroids.

Who's the majority of playable characters? Males.
Women rarely get this agency as they're rarely playable and thus are more objects in the game's plot. Thus, objectified.

No sale. There is a social taboo against violence against women. Imagine if the scene in far cry 3 where you torture your little brother had been replaced by his younger sister. Do you think that would have opened a whole can of nasty worms? What you're suggesting is not objectification any more than any of the male background characters who are there just as filler for the main story.

Lets look deeper, still, now that it occurs to me! Jim uses Kratos as an example. NOT entirely because of his physical apperance, and prowess. He gets to have relationships with many many women. He had a family. A daughter.

I haven't played the games.

How often does the woman have to, or even get to save a guy, especially their "prince?"

In most RPG's I have played since I got my Commodore64.

Those are just examples of the imbalance of agency even when a woman gets it. Generally SEXIST, no?

No generally about money and target audiences.

Videogame publishers are telling game developers they can NOT have female protagonists. Bioshock Infinite got remade to not have Elizabeth, the most important woman in the game, possibly the most important character on the cover in favor of dudebro style.
Last of Us developers Naughtydog had to FIGHT to keep the sidekick young girl on the cover. C'mon, seriously? they had to fight for that?

See above, its not some anti woman conspiracy. Its just business. As soon as they register that girls throw down as much money (which I personally think is the case), then they will start to change. All companies regardless of trade are ultra conservative. If they have a model that makes money, they wont change it, until it start to make less. If it aint broke....

The status quo in gaming is sexist, and mysoginistic.

No. Most stories just happened to be written to or from a male perspective atm, because of an assumed target demographic. And they avoid for as long as they can, to kick up the stink that is violence towards women.

[quote]Full stop. Stop being superficial looking only at sexualized appearances of characters. Dig deeper. Think about it. Maybe listen to Jim's entire notion?

I did, and I am not buying it. It is superficial in itself.

[quote]
Pay attention to more than the physical appearance for sexism, and misoginy. Think more on Jim's entire message. Look at the lives the playable characters get to lead between male, and female protagonists, and how often the protagonist you play as is only female with no option for gender select.
The inequality aughta be obvious, then.

If the storyline was written with a man as lead character the rest of the game will reflect this choice. the more visible gamer girls become (as more than just a curiosity) the sooner there will be games with stories written from a female point of view. A change is already happening as more women chose to be game designers. For as long as publishers believe their core audience is males, things will continue as is.

Speaking of males in games. When was the last game in which you played a male anything, that was not a caricature of masculinity? They have idealized physical appearance but are rarely human in the same way a character in a good book can be.

Rebel Raven. What I do not understand is what solution you propose to this 'problem'. Should all games be written from a neutral perspective and have the option to play as both sexes? Maxine Payne? Alisa Wake?

Rebel_Raven:

I'll grant you that men, and women are physically sexualized, but the point of this video flew WAY over your head.

Thats a pretty arrogant thing to say. I simply do not buy the basic premise of the point Jim is trying to make.

Sorry. Just felt you were short changing Jim's point, and oversimplifying it. Lots of people overlook the finer details of the point he's making in favor of just physical appearances which doesn't help things. Infact it might hurt the case as people will invariably try to base it purely on appearances which is only part of the formula.

The point Jim is making is that Men often have something a woman in a game does not. Agency. What's the deal with that?

Money. If there are more males in the audience, which was the case for a long time then choosing a male as lead character is a safer bet.
I think its changing as publishers realize that girls who grew up in the age of consoles are just as eager players. Also, don't forget that RPG's have for a long time had the option to play the role of a female. Fighting games includes female characters that are every inch as caricatured as are the male characters.

And why is that the safer bet? Guys don't want to play as girls. It's not wrong, but it's wrong to expect women to have to play as guys in a lot of genres on that note.

I hope it's changing the way you think it is.

Yes, RPGs and fighting games have been more equitable than other genres, like Sandbox games, and First/thid person shooters, sports games, and so forth.
I still state, however, fighting games offer little to no agency.

Further, we cannot go purely by RPGs!
Moreover, options to play as females aren't quite the same as having to play as a female character because she's the only protagonist. It's a middle ground. Such games are no more female protagonist games than they are male protagonist games. Especially in recent western RPGs like Fallout, Oblivion, and Skyrim where gender had near zero impact on the game.

Jim, IMO, is pushing towards definition 2, and 3 as the vast majority of playable characters are male,

As has the vast majority of paying costumers been for decades.

Yes. Just elaborating a bit on Agency. A lot of people arguing against Jim miss that important word.

they get the ever important Agency.

Of being either a killer or killed. That tends to be the extend of it, unless you play RPG's in which case chances are you can play as whatever sex you want to.

You forget guys get love interests, the choice to spare people, the choice to cheat on a spouse, go on dates, initiate sexual intercourse, etc, etc.
When was the last time a female protagonist only game had that level of agency?
Guys get that sort of agency all the time in guy only protagonist games.
I.E. GTA, God of War, Sleeping Dogs, infamous 2. Not RPGs. That's just off the top of my head. There's no doubt a gigantic list in waiting.

I can't remember a female protagonist only game had the choices presented to Cole in Infamous.

The inequity is there.

With that Agency the protagonist becomes more idealized as they are supposedly the ideal agent of your will. Understand?

They are a caricature. Masculinity on steroids.

That's beside the point. They become the avatar of you, and your will. They are your agents.
Also lets not forget the reasonably built people like Nathan Drake, and Cole Mcgrath, and the Prototype dudes, granted the latter two had super powers. The Metro series didn't have a roided up main protagonist. Nor does GTA protagonists, Wei shen from sleeping dogs, and the list goes on.

Lets not forget nearly every last guy in CoD, and MW. Not roided up. Masculine? sure, but they're at least somewhat realistic.

Who's the majority of playable characters? Males.
Women rarely get this agency as they're rarely playable and thus are more objects in the game's plot. Thus, objectified.

No sale. There is a social taboo against violence against women. Imagine if the scene in far cry 3 where you torture your little brother had been replaced by his younger sister. Do you think that would have opened a whole can of nasty worms? What you're suggesting is not objectification any more than any of the male background characters who are there just as filler for the main story.

Uhm, you've never beaten farcry 3 before, have you? There's a pretty unsettling ending option there.
Tomb raider has had many greusome deaths for Lara.
Mortal Kombat, too.
Saints Row 2 had some nasty notions that several women met a horrible death. Not quite on camera, though.
Pretty sure Resident evils have some graphic death scenes.
Oh! GTA! Bop the hookers, get health, kill hookers, get money back!

Lets not forget God of war, granted a great deal of them were monsterous women being ripped apart.

There's more than a handful of games with a female villain who got her comeuppins.

There may be a taboo, there may be some rarity making it a little more flinch inducing, but it's still there.

Lets look deeper, still, now that it occurs to me! Jim uses Kratos as an example. NOT entirely because of his physical apperance, and prowess. He gets to have relationships with many many women. He had a family. A daughter.

I haven't played the games.

None the less, my point stands. How many times have you seen the female protagonist in female protagonist only games have a family? Children? Kiss a guy while you were playing as her? Have intercourse she initiated?

How often does the woman have to, or even get to save a guy, especially their "prince?"

In most RPG's I have played since I got my Commodore64.

Really? i hadn't noticed very many games where a woman got to save, then get the guy in much the same way as guys get the girls. Then again I play largely on consoles. PC games have been able to be more liberal with plots. Still, I'd appreciate some game names.
[/quote]

Those are just examples of the imbalance of agency even when a woman gets it. Generally SEXIST, no?

No generally about money and target audiences. [/quote]
They never even bother with niche games for the most part. If they weren't so scared of diversity, we might not be having this conversation.

Videogame publishers are telling game developers they can NOT have female protagonists. Bioshock Infinite got remade to not have Elizabeth, the most important woman in the game, possibly the most important character on the cover in favor of dudebro style.
Last of Us developers Naughtydog had to FIGHT to keep the sidekick young girl on the cover. C'mon, seriously? they had to fight for that?

See above, its not some anti woman conspiracy. Its just business. As soon as they register that girls throw down as much money (which I personally think is the case), then they will start to change. All companies regardless of trade are ultra conservative. If they have a model that makes money, they wont change it, until it start to make less. If it aint broke....

The business is not fair to women. There's inequality in the number of games featuring female only protagonists, and even in their own games, their agency.

It's that fear to diversify.

Regardless of excuses, I cannot accept the status quo in the gaming industry. I am steadfast in my belief that it needs to change, and thankfully seems to be.

The status quo in gaming is sexist, and mysoginistic.

No. Most stories just happened to be written to or from a male perspective atm, because of an assumed target demographic. And they avoid for as long as they can, to kick up the stink that is violence towards women.

And some stories written from a female perspective are getting blocked, interfereed with, and kaboshed.

I.E. Sleeping Dogs was originally called "Black Lotus" and had a female protagonist as the cop. Activision kaboshed that in fear it wouldn't sell. Remember Me, a game coming out next month had to be fought for tooth and nail to get it to come out.

Full stop. Stop being superficial looking only at sexualized appearances of characters. Dig deeper. Think about it. Maybe listen to Jim's entire notion?

I did, and I am not buying it. It is superficial in itself.

No it's not. The vast diffirence in agency allowed is not superficial.

Pay attention to more than the physical appearance for sexism, and misoginy. Think more on Jim's entire message. Look at the lives the playable characters get to lead between male, and female protagonists, and how often the protagonist you play as is only female with no option for gender select.
The inequality aughta be obvious, then.

If the storyline was written with a man as lead character the rest of the game will reflect this choice. the more visible gamer girls become (as more than just a curiosity) the sooner there will be games with stories written from a female point of view. A change is already happening as more women chose to be game designers. For as long as publishers believe their core audience is males, things will continue as is.

Speaking of males in games. When was the last game in which you played a male anything, that was not a caricature of masculinity? They have idealized physical appearance but are rarely human in the same way a character in a good book can be.

Does Luigi's mansion series count? Scared guy clad in green ghost busting nervously? I didn't play it, but I've seen gameplay, and researched into it.
Kirby? Kirby's a dude.
Pacman?
Quantum Conundrum where you play as a little boy puzzle solving more than anything.
Pokemon games. I don't think Ash/red is a hulking he-man by any stretch of the imagination nevermind the male pokemon.
Closure.
Dungeon Defenders. the knight is in heart shaped boxer shorts, and is hardly an Adonis.
Zombie tycoon II.
Kingdom Hearts series, maybe?
Legend of mana?
The Sims series?
Link, perhaps?
That's a short list of guys that don't fit the hulking macho man, or typical guy. Go ahead nad dispute if you want. I'll be able to think up more.

Homo Carnivorous:
Rebel Raven. What I do not understand is what solution you propose to this 'problem'. Should all games be written from a neutral perspective and have the option to play as both sexes? Maxine Payne? Alisa Wake?

No. watch "the creepy culling of female protagonists" Jim did earlier.
I'd suggest, firstly, the heinous stuff reported in that vid stopping, and in turn giving female protagonists a chance instead of outright denying them, and fighting them, and trying to make them into guys.
Not saying make huge budget AAA games but the latest Jimquisition Guns blazing helps shine some light on where I'd like them to take female protagonists at the least.

Give the female protagonsits a CHANCE a little bit more often, and put some effort into it so it's she's not set up for failure because her game, or her character suck. Cheap DLC for a game's side story, maybe? Standalone DLC type content like Infamous's Festival of Blood?

A game using a decent game's technology to make a game where you paly as a female protagonist so there's less money spent on building it from the ground up?

Hmmm, I wonder how Drakengard 3 would fare here if that game were to be translated and released over here (once it's finished), let's just say that the female protagonist in that game is certainly... different from the norm. She's promiscious, and has a small harem of men called Apostles who both fight alongside her, and sate her sexual lust.

So no one wants to admit women sexualize men in genres they general produce in? That is sad and rather telling. Honestly the big problem here is that video games and scifi/fantasy is no longer just a niche ghetto, but has become popular, and more importantly profitable outside of its usual constrants. It's kinda saddening that the same effort it took to blow off the stigma of being a geek or nerd is now coming back to bite those same people in the butt. But I guess that's life.

Still the sheer amount of avoiding the sexualization of men in other genres is a tactic that will come back and bite those who complain about the scifi industry just as hard. People will not be blind sighted for much longer when a unbiased look is needed for perspective.

I liken this recent surge of criticism to the idea of a group of kids that ignored other's for being "losers and dorks" and now they want to play they are quite surprised none of the other kids made anything for them to play with. Demanding equal amount of toys from people who have already spent there energy making toys for the people there first...Well we will see how well that works.

Teh Blasterz:
Hmmm, I wonder how Drakengard 3 would fare here if that game were to be translated and released over here (once it's finished), let's just say that the female protagonist in that game is certainly... different from the norm. She's promiscious, and has a small harem of men called Apostles who both fight alongside her, and sate her sexual lust.

I'd probably play it because of the weird aspect. I love the weird and eerie.

Thing is traditional agency was for men in games and scifi/fantasy. Because it was a niche for nerds and geeks. Women had agency and sexualization of men in the romance genre, also now that its kinda blending all together more of the YA and urban fantasy genres are seeing more women agency.

If you look at these genres you would see very little male agency, hell one can look at the local bookstore and note while there are plenty of men on the covers they are usually quite sexualized and in many cases the face is obscured or hidden.

I think it would be foolish of my to expect male agency in said genres. Exp when I have a genre for me. Now that the fantasy and scifi genre is expanding I would expect more female agency and there is. But expecting female agency in the genre in its roots is the worst kind of historical revisioning I could possible imagine.

Of course mario rescued Peach, at the time no women would admit to playing it. Heck diverse actions towards nerds were still quite common in the 2000s.

Now that is not too say a more expansive genre wouldn't be appreciated. But acting like it should of been there at the start is just plain dishonesty. Men did not keep women out of the genre, women did. Now plenty of women tried to expand it for a while now, but I can't help but feel people need to take more from the examples of Andre Norton and Mercedes Lackey. Then expecting a company to start making games for you.

Rebel_Raven:
Does Luigi's mansion series count? Scared guy clad in green ghost busting nervously? I didn't play it, but I've seen gameplay, and researched into it.
Kirby? Kirby's a dude.
Pacman?
Quantum Conundrum where you play as a little boy puzzle solving more than anything.
Pokemon games. I don't think Ash/red is a hulking he-man by any stretch of the imagination nevermind the male pokemon.
Closure.
Dungeon Defenders. the knight is in heart shaped boxer shorts, and is hardly an Adonis.
Zombie tycoon II.
Kingdom Hearts series, maybe?
Legend of mana?
The Sims series?
Link, perhaps?
That's a short list of guys that don't fit the hulking macho man, or typical guy. Go ahead nad dispute if you want. I'll be able to think up more.

None of them are ugly though. How many of those characters are the stereotypical overweight basement dwellers? Seems his point flew over your head there.

Your entire hyperbole in your posts is getting rather pathetic. Yes, there are more male protagonists than female, but there are a lot more female protagonists than you care to realize. Clearly you don't bother to play much games or even do your research.

I also find it funny with you suggesting that there should be games where the roles are reversed and have a woman saving the guy. Why the hell should the damsel in distress be a man, especially when I keep hearing people like you talk down about the damsel in distress? If there are to be games with reversed roles, then I hope they go all the way. Make a game where all the bad guys you kill are only females. Let females be the cannon fodder for once. Let the males be the ones worthy of saving instead of the women.

I find it funny that you would go out of your way to only play games with female protagonists. There's some deep-seeded sexism right there. It goes both ways. It's as sexist as guys refusing to play a game because the character is female.

Blue Ranger:

Rebel_Raven:
Does Luigi's mansion series count? Scared guy clad in green ghost busting nervously? I didn't play it, but I've seen gameplay, and researched into it.
Kirby? Kirby's a dude.
Pacman?
Quantum Conundrum where you play as a little boy puzzle solving more than anything.
Pokemon games. I don't think Ash/red is a hulking he-man by any stretch of the imagination nevermind the male pokemon.
Closure.
Dungeon Defenders. the knight is in heart shaped boxer shorts, and is hardly an Adonis.
Zombie tycoon II.
Kingdom Hearts series, maybe?
Legend of mana?
The Sims series?
Link, perhaps?
That's a short list of guys that don't fit the hulking macho man, or typical guy. Go ahead nad dispute if you want. I'll be able to think up more.

None of them are ugly though. How many of those characters are the stereotypical overweight basement dwellers? Seems his point flew over your head there.

Your entire hyperbole in your posts is getting rather pathetic. Yes, there are more male protagonists than female, but there are a lot more female protagonists than you care to realize. Clearly you don't bother to play much games or even do your research.

I also find it funny with you suggesting that there should be games where the roles are reversed and have a woman saving the guy. Why the hell should the damsel in distress be a man, especially when I keep hearing people like you talk down about the damsel in distress? If there are to be games with reversed roles, then I hope they go all the way. Make a game where all the bad guys you kill are only females. Let females be the cannon fodder for once. Let the males be the ones worthy of saving instead of the women.

I find it funny that you would go out of your way to only play games with female protagonists. There's some deep-seeded sexism right there. It goes both ways. It's as sexist as guys refusing to play a game because the character is female.

Oh, you want outright UGLY male protagonists? Maybe you should've specefied, and asked as opposed to assuming those guys didn't ecxist, or that I didn't know about them. See, the guy I replying to just wanted people that weren't typical muclemen, and such as far as I know.
For you?
Boogerman, Chuck Rock, arguably everyone in Brink, earthworm Jim, Raiden kinda gotten ugly with his cyborg parts, Sir Daniel Fortesque, Stubbs the Zombie, Legacy of Kain's Raziel (Isn't raziel missing a lower jaw or something?)Cryptosporidium 137 from Destroy all humans was an ugly ugly alien guy. Deadpool's game hasn't been released just yet, but it will be. Deadpool is pretty damn ugly under that mask.
So, there's the ugly section. EASILY, there it is out of the past, present, and future of gaming. Guys not held up to adonis like perfect beauty.

Yeah, there's no basement dweller heroes just yet that I know of. Kinda close in Comix Zone, but nothing so sterotypical as an ugly one in a male only protagonist game. There probably is one out there, but if there is, you apparently didn't do your research if I find one. Want to go that route ye who thrusts fingers at me?

But where's the ugly female protagonists in female only protagonist games? Hm? Go ahead, and research that. Coz I'd say you have to research them.

So I'm not made of money, able to buy every game since the 80s just to get my fix, and get a powerful computer with god knows how much disk space if I wanna PC game. I'm not a huge fan of PC gaming either since there's so much that can go wrong with it.
So I'm not scraping the hell out of the corners of the internet, and scouring to find every last female only protagonist game? So I'm not learning Japanese to be able to play those games not released in the english speaking world?
Thing is I have to do stuff like that if you want me to go get every female protagonist only game to quell my wrath against the gaming industry... wait, no, I'll still find reasons to be angry, and dissapointed in them.
Ever hear of "Black Lotus?" No? That's coz it got turned into Sleeping Dogs, and Wei Shen replaced the original female protagonist while the game was being created.
Farcry 2 cut playable women out of their game.
God of war didn't have any playable women (presumeably in multiplayer) coz Sony couldn't figureout how to design them...
Want a lot more reasons I'm none too pleased with the gaming industry? Or can I save some typing?

I research like hell for more recent releases like Remember Me. I cry inside a bit every time I see someone ask what that game is when footage gets shown. What should be a prominent game from Capcom, a well known gaming company, laying in obscurity, and it's not even out yet! And it wil be in less than three weeks on June the 4th.

Oh, and Two Souls, Transistor, and... uhm... I think that's the list until 2014-15 for female only protagonist games. Not all ofthe list of games I want, though, like Deadpool. A male only protagonist game I presume. Or Saints Row 4, which allows gender select.

See, I HAVE to jump through hoops, and research to find female protagonist only games for the most part. Their commercials don't often appear on TV like male only protagonist Call of duties, Modern Warfares, and Metal Gears. No doubt GTA will get TV commercials, too well before 3 weeks before it comes out.
Color me surprised if I EVER see a TV commercial for "Remember Me."
Tomb Raider got sparse advertisement on TV. Huzzah! <.<

Meanwhile guys have quite the pick of past, present, and future games and have to do little research to find one. If they're good or not? Half the research I have to do.
You can't swing a dead cat in gamestop without knocking over half a shelf full of male only games. Meanwhile you gotta dig around for a female only protagonist game.

I do more to enjoy my hobby of gaming than most to say the least thanks to needing to research. People defending the status quo of gaming seem happy with that.

I'm wondering if you have anything against a guy being in the damsel in distress while a woman spends the game to save him? If so, why are you okay with women in that role? Do you look down on the NPCs you have to save? I'm not going to assume about your character like you so graciously assumed about me.

I don't look down on damsels in distress. They're there for the plot. Problem is the roles are so rarely reversed. Why's it gotta be that way?
I played tomb raider just fine saving a damsel in distress as Lara Croft. I looked forward to saving her. Largely a new experience for me, there.
Dragons Dogma had me saving several women as my female Arisen in quests dedicated to saving them! I'm not complaining about that. Infact I'm pretty endeared towards some of characters I saved.

Killing only women on the way instead of guys, and robots, and dinosaurs? Why not? 'z diffirent. Wouldn't be too surprised if someone made that game already anyhow. I dunno, I didn't research that. <.< But if I find one, you sure as hell didn't research either, so do you really wanna go that way?

Don't pretend I haven't played games where you killed women, sometimes unavoidably. Tomb Raider, Mortal Kombat, Shadow Warrior, Mass Effect, Skyrim, Oblivion, GTA Vice city/4, Saints row 2, 3, and hopefully 4. I've fought many women who got killed by someone else coz they didn't kill me, like Heavenly Sword.
Don't pretend there's never been a female villain in a game you have to kill, or got killed as a result for beating them. A lot of RPGs have them.

I've gamed plenty. If I missed female protagonists is because I've NEVER HEARD OF THEM. I wonder why? Rarity, lack of media? So I gotta google like mad to find lists of them, and hope that they still exist somewhere, and research them to make sure they're worth my limited funds, and not crappy games that rely almost solely on a scantily clad women for sales like Cross Blades, or infuriating messes like Metroid: Other M.

Also don't lump me in with people. I'm my own person. You can be angry at "them," but don't bring that baggage here. You don't know me. I'm not some general entity like the Gaming Industry, I'm a person you're singling out.

I prefer female protagonists, yes, but that doesn't mean I'm entirely excluding males from my gaming library, so I'm apparently not as sexist as the immature persons that won't ever play as a female character, especially a female character that makes out with a dude while your're still her.

See, I bought Red Dead Redemption because the premise was so thoroughly interesting! I couldn't relate to Marston at ALL, but I liked the game well enough. And the Undead Nightmare expansion pack!

Infamous, Sleeping Dogs, Quantum Conundrum are more somewhat recent games I can name off the top of my head that are in my collection whre I have to play as a guy.

I bought Batman Arkham City, and will be seeking out batman Arkham Asylum sooner or later (the latter hs no catwoman storyline, but I want one of Mark hamill's last Joker roles as I appreciate his work! I also appreciate Kevin Conroy's voice acting!).
I am considering the Deadpool game, too.
I like those properties, and respect them enough that they stick out from the Kratos like guys, and the 20-30 something underwear models like Nathan Drake, and Dante who don't really interest me as characters.

So, yeah, I may not be buying games willy nilly, and avoiding some I deem boring, and unimmersive, but I still have, and probably will buy games that FORCE me to play as a male.
've got a long long long list from the 80s to the near future of them. So I'm kinda tired of having to play as a guy nearly all the time to enjoy videogaming.

I've also played games that force me to play as a guy before I get to play as a woman, like the Way of the Samurai series, Resident Evil 5.

You still really wanna peg me as akin to the insecure males that will never play as a female character? The sort of people that the gaming industry is afraid of alienating which is attached to the fear that they'll loose so much money on it if they make a female protagonist only game?

Sexist? I don't think so. Jaded towards the typical dudebro? Yes. Eager for new rare luxuries like playing as a female protagonist in a game? Yes. Hence my preferrence for my own gender. If I respect a property well enough, I'll try'n buy it with my limited funds male or female.

Rebel_Raven:
Blah blah blah.

Aside from Raiden and Deadpool, where the hell are those characters now that you've listed? Yeah, that's what I thought. Nowhere! No, Raiden is not ugly, even with his robotic parts, and Deadpool may be ugly under his mask, but we don't see his face, do we? No, he has a mask on, obviously.

Yes, I do have something against males being the damsels because it just seems to only please someone as insecure as you who seems only interested in role reversals. Spare me your garbage. No, I don't look down on female damsels or NPCs I have to save. Nice try, though.

I never said there weren't female villains. Maybe you should actually read what I wrote. I suggested making a game where the bad guys are only female, especially with female-only protagonists. Try actually reading what's actually written. No, I haven't found a game where all females are the bad guys. Are you suggesting that games exists. Then by all means, what is this game? Oh, and yes, I do want to go that way, even with all my research I did. So you can knock off that arrogant attitude and deal with it.

I've lumped you in with those other people because you've shown you deserve to be there. You keep talking about all those male protagonists in the history of gaming, yet the vast, vast, VAST majority of them have been forgotten.

Blue Ranger:

Rebel_Raven:
Blah blah blah.

Aside from Raiden and Deadpool, where the hell are those characters now that you've listed? Yeah, that's what I thought. Nowhere! No, Raiden is not ugly, even with his robotic parts, and Deadpool may be ugly under his mask, but we don't see his face, do we? No, he has a mask on, obviously.

Yes, I do have something against males being the damsels because it just seems to only please someone as insecure as you who seems only interested in role reversals. Spare me your garbage. No, I don't look down on female damsels or NPCs I have to save. Nice try, though.

I never said there weren't female villains. Maybe you should actually read what I wrote. I suggested making a game where the bad guys are only female, especially with female-only protagonists. Try actually reading what's actually written. No, I haven't found a game where all females are the bad guys. Are you suggesting that games exists. Then by all means, what is this game? Oh, and yes, I do want to go that way, even with all my research I did. So you can knock off that arrogant attitude and deal with it.

I've lumped you in with those other people because you've shown you deserve to be there. You keep talking about all those male protagonists in the history of gaming, yet the vast, vast, VAST majority of them have been forgotten.

image
He may have been pretty before, but that's changed as far as I'm concerned.

I've seen Deadpool's face in comics, and he might pull it off in game. Never know until the game is out. Point is, I dug up examples. Lots of examples, obscure or not.
And I'm just going on hideously disfigured people.

How about John Marston, who's not exatly a looker. Especially in his zombie form in Undead Nightmare.

Not seeing you answering my challenge of finding ugly female protagonists in female protagonist only games, though. :P

As for me being "insecure?" You couldn't be more wrong. I'm just fed up with the misogyny, sexism, and inequities in the gaming industry towards women. Am I blind towards the inequities vs men? Nope. Frankly they just aren't equal as far as I'm concerned. It's why I'm more inclined to see the inequities at least evened up before I fight for both.

Games where all your enemies are women?
Rose and camellia. Sure it's a flash game but you play the role of a wife of a dying/dead husband, and unfortunately all the other women of the house hate you. Now you are in a slap duel vs each of them.
Possibly the sequel to Rose and Camellia, too.

Skullgirls. All female cast. Some are evil. You gotta fight your compitention anyhow regardless of alignment. There's several other fighting games with an all female cast.

A game where you mow down women in a similar fashion to male grunts in shooters? I'll say you got me on this one. The headache you're giving me is putting me off researching. :p
Pretty sure it exists outside of hentai games, though, obscure as it is.

You're calling me arrogant for what I said to Homo Carnivorous? At least I apologized for it and meant well with it instead of being arrogant just to be spiteful.
I explained my reasoning behind my seeming arrogance. I certainly try to be civil, and try not to be arrogant.

So you're cutting down the majority of my examples of guys because they're forgotten?

You do realize a lot of female protagonists are already in the area of "forgotten?"

You may not think well of me, but you're not exactly makign a good impression either. Sounds a lot like you're defending the status quo of the gaming industry.

I'll spare you my "garbage" if you spare me your "garbage."

Rebel_Raven:
As for me being "insecure?" You couldn't be more wrong. I'm just fed up with the misogyny, sexism, and inequities in the gaming industry towards women. Am I blind towards the inequities vs men? Nope. Frankly they just aren't equal as far as I'm concerned. It's why I'm more inclined to see the inequities at least evened up before I fight for both.

How ironic that this is your response. Inequities are either good or bad. Maybe they are not equal between the sexes, but so what? Why should that stop you from fighting against both? In other words, you just proved you don't actually want equality. You don't fight inequality by accepting inequality just because it doesn't affect you personally. But thanks for showing us your true colours.

I guess you never heard the phrase "beauty is in the eye of the beholder." Just because you find someone ugly doesn't mean others do. I don't see anything ugly with Raiden, even with his implants.

Yes, a lot of female protagonists may be forgotten. But many more male protagonists are too, plain and simple. Funny how you fail to mention that. That's mainly because of poor writing.

I haven't searched anything for you because I never said I would. You can do that yourself.

Your reply to Homo Carnivorous only showed you didn't even pay attention to what he wrote. He wasn't just talking about big, hulking men as you assumed.

No, I do not want the status quo. But to change the status quo means to also call out garbage posts like yours that's full of hypocrisy. It needs to change for the better for everyone, not just for you.

Blue Ranger:

Rebel_Raven:
As for me being "insecure?" You couldn't be more wrong. I'm just fed up with the misogyny, sexism, and inequities in the gaming industry towards women. Am I blind towards the inequities vs men? Nope. Frankly they just aren't equal as far as I'm concerned. It's why I'm more inclined to see the inequities at least evened up before I fight for both.

How ironic that this is your response. Inequities are either good or bad. Maybe they are not equal between the sexes, but so what? Why should that stop you from fighting against both. In other words, you just proved you don't actually want equality. You don't fight inequality by accepting inequality just because it doesn't affect you personally. But thanks for showing us your true colours.

I guess you never heard the phrase "beauty is in the eye of the beholder." Just because you find someone ugly doesn't mean others do. I don't see anything ugly with Raiden, even with his implants.

Yes, a lot of female protagonists may be forgotten. But many more male protagonists are too, plain and simple. Funny how you fail to mention that. That's mainly because of poor writing.

I haven't searched anything for you because I never said I would. You can do that yourself.

Your reply to Homo Carnivorous only showed you didn't even pay attention to what he wrote. He wasn't just talking about big, hulking men as you assumed.

No, I do not want the status quo. But to change the status quo means to also call out garbage posts like yours that's full of hypocrisy.

Ironic? My responce was an unintentnional consequence?

I'm not accepting the inequalities vs males. I said I wasn't blind to them, didn't I? Still inequities vs guys pales vs the inequalities with women, IMO.
Want me to fight against the inadequacies vs men? I am.
As female protagonists get more accepted, and wide spread, say in Call of Duty/MW eventually, the times might change enough to allow for more female enemies to help stamp out the "all cannon fodder are males" thing you brought up.
Frankly I've seen more variety in female cannon fodder than I have female protagonists.

More female protagonists might just help stamp out that whole "Only men get shown as slobbering muder machines!" complaint some have as sooner or later women are going to be shown like that more, and more thanks to women getting some equality in te poor writing department.

If you want changes vs the appearances of guys, they come in a wide variety from the Kratoses to the protagonist in Infamous: Second Son, to the trio of male leads in GTA 5. There's plenty of variety in appearances as far as bodies, and personalities go. I don't think we can outright halt the sexualized man any more than we can halt the sexualized woman, so I'm not fighting that battle as hard.

I'll grant you that minority ethnicities of people have a long way to go, but they're starting to diversify more and more.

So what inequities do you see with men in the gaming industry? You keep on about them, but you never really say them aside from being cannon fodder. Go ahead, and air them out. Help make people aware so they can talk about it, too. For the sake of the fight vs inadequate treatment vs males in the gaming industry!

If you want to talk about the inadequacies vs guys in the gaming industry, we sure can! Especially if you can be civil about it.

Fine, keep your opinion on Raiden. I sure as heck held back on my opinions on a lot of male protagonists appearances.

Many more male protagonists are forgotten because there were many more male protagonists period. Your argument doesn't hold water there. Poor writing happens to both genders, too. I'll freely admit that. They both get into some really bad games whih also adds to why they're forgotten.

I asked him if my list was inadequate, and I would've added more towards it if it wasn't. I just didn't have any hideous male protagonsits on mind then. Just a plethora of males who aren't perfect in one way or another.

I'll thank you to stop your attempts to demonize me. I'm no hypocrate. Wait, how am I a hypocrate? What am I telling people not to do that I am doing? Where are my moral shortcomings here? How about you explain that one to me.

Rebel_Raven:
...

Your hypocrisy comes when you say you recognize inequities of both, then admit in your previous post in refusing to fight both because you personally feel one pales in comparison to the other, as if that actually mattered. You don't say you want equality, then say something like that. That is what hypocrisy is. That should be obvious. It doesn't matter how minimal you feel inequality against a certain group is, recognizing it means you recognize a problem, and not speaking against is hypocritical, plain and simple.

Again, I don't care about who you find attractive. My point is that beauty is in the eye of the beholder. Lots of people don't find Raiden hideous. So quit pushing your opinion as fact here. Aside from a couple of characters you mentioned, many others you listed aren't automatically seen as hideous by many people. The fact that many have been forgotten should tell you that they haven't really caught on with people, or else they'd still be here as a franchise.

I don't have any qualms about more female protagonists, I never have, so I don't know why you keep arguing as if I said otherwise..

To play the Devils Advocate here, but you use alot of clips from Dead or Alive: Xtreme Beach Volly Ball. I have to say that as a gamer I joking got this game for a friend as a bit of a gag gift who then later got me to play it.
I had my doubts at first because I thought it was just going to be garbage wrapped in eye candy but after the first ten minutes the appeal of the girls wore off and I found that the game was a really good volly ball sports game underneath.

So dont just judge a game by imagery after all, sometimes they surprise you.

Blue Ranger:

Rebel_Raven:
...

Your hypocrisy comes when you say you recognize inequities of both, then admit in your previous post in refusing to fight both because you personally feel one pales in comparison to the other, as if that actually mattered. You don't say you want equality, then say something like that. That is what hypocrisy is. That should be obvious. It doesn't matter how minimal you feel inequality against a certain group is, recognizing it means you recognize a problem, and not speaking against is hypocritical, plain and simple.

Again, I don't care about who you find attractive. My point is that beauty is in the eye of the beholder. Lots of people don't find Raiden hideous. So quit pushing your opinion as fact here. Aside from a couple of characters you mentioned, many others you listed aren't automatically seen as hideous by many people. The fact that many have been forgotten should tell you that they haven't really caught on with people, or else they'd still be here as a franchise.

I don't have any qualms about more female protagonists, I never have, so I don't know why you keep arguing as if I said otherwise..

When did I say I "refuse" to fight for both genders? Quote me.

I can, will, and have talked about how males get mistreated, and agreed with points (including ones you made), and so on. I offered to talk about it, which you didn't take me up on it. How is that refusal?

I admitted bias towards being against the misogyny, and sexism towards women, but I never EVER ignored the problems with men, and never will. I recognize they exist. That is not hypocracy. That's just bias towards what I perceive to be larger/more numerous problems which can have a ripple effect of change for both genders when addressed. I feel like the way women are treated in the gaming industry is worse than the way men are. If you disagree, that's fine, but my opinion isn't likely to change. If we made a list of the way things weren't equal in games with one gender protagonists, I'm fairly certain that the list against women would be longer, and, the way I see it, tinged with more malice from the gaming industry which is what's annoying me most.

I recognized inequities towards men you made, and compared them to women's problems since it felt like you were countering my points without any agreement with my points.
If I kept talking about it, it's likely coz you never said "I agree" on anything I said on the matter, rather treated it like you were contesting the matter, never indicating you wanted to change the subject.

You said you didn't like the status quo, so, we have a similar viewpoint on the status quo in that it needs to change? You just don't like the way I say it? Good enough for me.

Honestly, miscommunication was likely why this topic got dragged on so long between us.

Also your posts were largely just blasting me with insults with little description on why you were doing it until I asked for elaboration.

Rebel_Raven:
When did I say I "refuse" to fight for both genders? Quote me.

Rebel_Raven:
As for me being "insecure?" You couldn't be more wrong. I'm just fed up with the misogyny, sexism, and inequities in the gaming industry towards women. Am I blind towards the inequities vs men? Nope. Frankly they just aren't equal as far as I'm concerned. It's why I'm more inclined to see the inequities at least evened up before I fight for both.

That's basically a refusal right there. You are saying that it has to get worse before you fight.

Blue Ranger:

Rebel_Raven:
When did I say I "refuse" to fight for both genders? Quote me.

Rebel_Raven:
As for me being "insecure?" You couldn't be more wrong. I'm just fed up with the misogyny, sexism, and inequities in the gaming industry towards women. Am I blind towards the inequities vs men? Nope. Frankly they just aren't equal as far as I'm concerned. It's why I'm more inclined to see the inequities at least evened up before I fight for both.

That's basically a refusal right there.

More inclined to, not NEVER inclined to. That's not refusal, that's being less likely to.

Rebel_Raven:
More inclined to, not NEVER inclined to. That's not refusal, that's being less likely to.

That's not much better. It would be better to speak up against it and snuff it out before it gets worse. To think otherwise is kind of ridiculous.

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