Jimquisition: Objectification And... Men?

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Jimothy Sterling:

Sir Christopher McFarlane:
Yeah, Jim, stop talking about this immediately!

What I like is that you posted what was *really* wanting to be said.

"This is getting old" is always a reliable way to mask, "I dislike this topic."

Just yesterday I commented that gender threads get locked down unnecessarily, and that the contributors repeatedly throw fuel on the fire of the debate that we're apparently not allowed to have here.

I go to work for a few hours, come back... the thread I posted that in is locked. I go to sleep, wake up, and a contributor is focusing on gender issues again. I'm not claiming to be a prophetic genius, the pattern is just easy to spot.

This is the only reason I'm getting sick of this. Can we not just let people talk without locking every single thread? If people are in violation of the code-of-conduct, surely dealing with those people is better than locking the threads. We're only throwing around ideas and opinions, not daggers, we don't need to be saved.

We can leave a thread we don't like at any time, it's very easy. What we can't do is talk when someone is forever hitting the disable button.

I agree with the distinction, Jim. I think it's cool that you follow up in the forums too, even if it is mostly just to be facetious. I do wonder about your "nearly 50% female" audience assertion though. The numbers seem to support it in one sense, but not in others.

http://www.esrb.org/about/video-game-industry-statistics.jsp

These seem to lean towards female gamers not being anything near 50% of ps3/360 users. I would be interested in seeing a more robust set of numbers.

Love Panda.
xxoxx

DGMockingJay:

DVS BSTrD:
I recall having a similar discussion about the portrayal of men vs the portrayal women in popular culture overall. For from objectifying men, this other person seemed to think that men were unfairly stereotyped as fat idiots who were completely dependent on women to save them from themselves. Now I want you to look at these pictures and ask yourself
imageimage
Which standard is harder to live up to?

People say that the females are stereo-typically shown useless and male fantasy.

Men on the other hand are brave, big, muscular and full of agency, able to make their decision.

Which standard is harder to live up to?

Which one do you think is more rewarding?

mdqp:

Well, if you want to go down that route, then male characters in videogames are a really hard standard to live up to... :P

That's why they have a whole game world made for them to do just that. The females on the other hand... you don't get 8 hour games about putting on make-up, doing cardio at the gym, sticking to a low fat diet and shopping for impractical fanservice clothing. =/

Well, not any good games anyway.

CrossLOPER:

But now you are suggesting that every female be molded to be likable by everyone, which would make her generally unlikable.

When did I suggest that? Because I'll gladly chew myself out for saying something that wrong.

...Or I would, if it was true.

And since when is being loyal in a relationship make one a "pet"?

"Loyalty" wasn't even in the phrase I quoted. "Depends" was.

I know you're going for "absurd," but at least don't misrepresent me in the process. Someone who doesn't "get it" might get the wrong idea and assume I said something like that.

Jimothy Sterling:

Orbot_Vectorman:

JenSeven:
Dear Jim, your argument is invalid, this is due to the Postal Dude. He is a male character that is in no way idolised nor should he be. He is at best a terrible human being.

Hey, I take offence to that. J/k. But yea, he isn't apart of the big "AAA" releases, so unfortunately our favorite psychopathic red head can't be used for this argument.

Even if Postal was AAA, the argument is a very flawed one. In general, male heroes are idealized. I do not believe, however, that ALL male characters are idealized. We're only dealing with the general and common examples here. Of course anti-heroes, flawed heroes, and downright villain protagonists exist. I always Kane & Lynch's best feature was how it starred two characters who were both physically *and* psychologically ugly people.

But again, male characters are allowed to be flawed, ugly, and even broken. Female protagonists, not so much.

True, very true. But, (And I'm sorry for potentially playing devils advocate)the flip side to this argument is, IF they made a flawed (physically or mentally) there could be a potential uproar over it.

FoolKiller:

Ashoten:
I have heard this argument before when people talk about comic book women being objectified. This is the best response I have seen.

image

Make of it what you will.

My only problem with that picture is that none of the female versions of those three even remotely resemble that image. Batgirl is fully covered, Supergirl has the skirt instead of the tights but still is the same, and the Green Lantern uniforms are well... uniform, except for a bit of cleavage.

Now as for others, I can see where they're coming from but these are bad examples as there are actually female equivalents that aren't so skimpily dressed.

What this picture illustrates is the way in which a female character is drawn a large percentage of the time. Notice how the butt always has to be jutting out in one direction and the chest in the other. It is an obvious outfit design that apes WOnder Womens wardrobe. Wonder Women who is one of the most progressive female characters in comics still need to stick her ass out to sell issues(according to the people who make comics apparently).

image

image

Not every female character is in skimpy cloths as you said but that does not mean that they are not being objectified.

image

See how this costume covers her face and arms but not her torso. Yes I did just look for pictures that support my opinion and there are plenty of examples of female super heros looking heroic and sexy but not objectified but try to find many examples of men in the same suggestive poses that are not a spoof.

This is my idea of an idealized female protagonist:

RE: Why does Superman have such smooth legs as compared to Green Lantern and Batman?

1337mokro:

Ashoten:
I have heard this argument before when people talk about comic book women being objectified. This is the best response I have seen.

image

Make of it what you will.

Question!!! Why does Superman shave his legs? HOW does Superman shave his legs? I mean Greenlantern I can get, Human with alien technology. How does Superman manage though? Industrial strength polymer leg waxing?

You said it yourself...alien. Superman, too, comes from a world far, far away... where hair is more evolved.

Gorrath:
I'm more curious about things that revolve around this debate. Female characters in media as sexual objects with little or no agency are referred to as a problem, either because they exist at all, or because they are too pervasive and... what? Is it because it is lazy writing? Is it because it sets up standards of beauty that are unreal? Is it because it sets up standards of behavior for women that are appaling? I'm interested in knowing why people think this objectification is bad, otherwise how can one set up counter arguments without resorting to strawmanning?

If we say that the objectification is bad because it is lazy writing, so too can we argue that making idealized male figures is equally so. Even with agency intact, a male hero figure who simply exists as an idealized version of real people is, frankly, boring as crap.

If we say objectification sets up unrealistic and unattainable standards of beauty, so too does idealization often do the same. You can point to 'ugly' male characters and say they aren't setting up any standards of beauty, but they do set up unrealistic expectations of masculine appearance. Even the ones that do have scarred faces and greying beards almost always have muscular forms with rediculous porportions. Almost as often as the idealized protagonist saves the objectified woman, he also saves a horde of skinny, dare I say 'nerdy' looking male characters who are equally defenseless, suggesting that having 'brains' is less preferable to having brawn.

If we say objectification is bad because it sets up standards of behavior that are appaling, the same can be said for idealized male characters. The tropes associated with said idealization usually involve little or no sympathy or empathy and that revolve around suggesting men are or should be brutish oafs. Even clever male characters with wit in their dialogue act without much more thought than "point gun, kill bad guy," much of the time.

That's just a few examples, but the point I"m striving at here, is that while idealization does not equal objectification, can it not cause many or all of the exact same problems? If so, why would we dismiss it as being a valid comparison to objectification? I'm not even saying it is, as I started out in my first paragrah, we'd need to lay our all of the reasons objectificaion IS bad and find out if idealization can cause those exact same problems.

I think the difference here is that an idealized character is still a character.. while an objectivied char... is wank material?

Solid snake for example had big char flaws.. objectified he would not have them.. he would all be "positive" traits.. and therefore very boring.

Or take away the personality of morrigan in Dragon age and she would be nothing more then a pole with tits. But add her personality and suddenly you have a bad ass female char with a somewhat grating personallity... you know.. like most badasses have?

There is a fine line between idealisation and sexualisation... it is crossed when the char is nothing but sexapeal and little else.

As for your other question in how this is bad: Well i guess Miss titsnass goes against the big moralic picture we all should adhere to but secretly enjoying to break all the time if we look at human culture as a whole and especialy the media industry.

Aslong as people buy the product.. the product maker will not make it more "unatractive" for his customers just to stand on the moral high ground.

I do not understand the idea that ideal men are what players want; for example the flawed hero of Planescape: Torment is more sympathetic character than most can-do heroes that own everyone else in combat, always does the right choices where others fail etc. (I actually hate how Dead Space 3 used the character of Norton; as the hero Isaac is always right, and Norton who opposes him is of course an inferior human being and overall a bad, bad person. It feels like those kind of protagonists exist only to boost players' self-esteem.)

Of the objectification of females, for example Dragon Age: Origins has some of the most beautiful full plate armors for female characters, like the one Teyrn Loghain's soldiers are wearing. Not a single "chainmail bikini" among their ranks, and I really liked Ser Cauthrien as a character, also.

DGMockingJay:
People say that the females are stereo-typically shown useless and male fantasy.

Men on the other hand are brave, big, muscular and full of agency, able to make their decision.

Which standard is harder to live up to?

But here's the thing: Men aren't being asked to be like the big-brave muscular guys in games. They're simply being asked to identify with them and enjoy the power fantasy. Those muscular characters are the way they are to stroke the player's ego and make them feel more powerful.

What are women being asked to do, then? Identify with that same power fantasy? Sure, why not? I'm never put off by the fact that all the player-characters in TF2 are male, and in Kingdom Hearts I have no problem enjoying the battle system as a spiky-haired do-gooding boy. But things do get rather awkward when the titties come out and I'm being asked to enjoy that as well. And it would be nice just to have a female lead thrown in there every now and then, just to spice things up. I'd like some female power fantasy, as well. I've been envisioning myself in the place of male protagonists for as long as I can remember. Surely it shouldn't be that earth-shatteringly difficult for guys, either? Or hell, just sit back and soak in the strangeness and role-play for a while.

Come on into the gender-displacement pool, the water's fine!

Do people really have a problem playing as a female character that is a bit concerning to say the least. And this brings me to something I have been thinking about recently.

You see people argue that "its just a game its not me doing that" and at the same time the same people wont play as a girl as they argue that the character is a projection of themselves. Well you cannot have it both ways. Ether its "just a game " and therefore who you play as should not be a problem for you or the character is a projection of yourself and its you who is using white phosphorus or butchering innocent people in an airport.

And why should every single character you play reflect your sex race and orientation? It would make for a very bland and boring world if all entertainment and art was like that.

I do not think the majority of people think this way, some will do(usually the young male adolescent) however the problem is the publishers thank think that they need to aim everything at this demographic, (publishers you need to get better market research departments seriously).

An example of how stupid this can get ...

Does anyone know of a game where you play as a 27 year old man who is

- slightly overweight
- has a long scruffy ponytail
- who has a beard because they are too lazy to shave

Anyone

Anyone ?

What a shame guess i cannot play any more games then.

see how stupid this can get

1337mokro:

Ashoten:
I have heard this argument before when people talk about comic book women being objectified. This is the best response I have seen.

image

Make of it what you will.

Question!!! Why does Superman shave his legs? HOW does Superman shave his legs? I mean Greenlantern I can get, Human with alien technology. How does Superman manage though? Industrial strength polymer leg waxing?

Like, maybe he just uses his breath to freeze his own leg and then just brushes them off. Or maybe he just, like, burns them off with this eyes.

Ashoten:

See how this costume covers her face and arms but not her torso. Yes I did just look for pictures that support my opinion and there are plenty of examples of female super heros looking heroic and sexy but not objectified but try to find many examples of men in the same suggestive poses that are not a spoof.

I've always found this to be a bit of a logical fallacy simply because what women would find sexually attractive doesn't generally revolve around what men do. Saying that we can't find men on the front of comics jutting their hip to the side is proof that they aren't done up to be sexy isn't a good argument.

I think we'd need a deeper understanding of what many or most women DO find sexually appealing to know if the poses used for male heroes are appealing to them, and then we'd have a basis for comparison.

Jimothy Sterling:

Sir Christopher McFarlane:
Yeah, Jim, stop talking about this immediately!

What I like is that you posted what was *really* wanting to be said.

"This is getting old" is always a reliable way to mask, "I dislike this topic."

You know Jim, Anyone who is familiar with my name could probably tell you how very tired I am of this topic cropping up over, and over, and over....

But your video manages to address the issue in an interesting way, without resorting to trying to be a white knight like SOME contributors on the escapist. Your video was logical, straight forward and had very clear reasonable points. So thank you for actually moving the discussion forward instead of resorting to sensationalism like some articles and comics have.

keep up the great work man, and dont be discouraged by the trolls.

Clovus:

1337mokro:

Ashoten:
I have heard this argument before when people talk about comic book women being objectified. This is the best response I have seen.

image

Make of it what you will.

Question!!! Why does Superman shave his legs? HOW does Superman shave his legs? I mean Greenlantern I can get, Human with alien technology. How does Superman manage though? Industrial strength polymer leg waxing?

Like, maybe he just uses his breath to freeze his own leg and then just brushes them off. Or maybe he just, like, burns them off with this eyes.

Can Superman's powers harm himself? His hair is basically indestructible if not he'd have his glorious mullet burned of every single time a heat based enemy was encountered. So why should there be an exception for his own heat vision which still works on the same principles and does not seem to be all that strong, compared to other heat powers in the same universe.

Kryptonite razorblades?

DVS BSTrD:

DGMockingJay:

DVS BSTrD:
I recall having a similar discussion about the portrayal of men vs the portrayal women in popular culture overall. For from objectifying men, this other person seemed to think that men were unfairly stereotyped as fat idiots who were completely dependent on women to save them from themselves. Now I want you to look at these pictures and ask yourself
imageimage
Which standard is harder to live up to?

People say that the females are stereo-typically shown useless and male fantasy.

Men on the other hand are brave, big, muscular and full of agency, able to make their decision.

Which standard is harder to live up to?

Which one do you think is more rewarding?

I was just humoring you. Your argument that the depiction of either gender in media creates an unrealistic standard for women and men, I find stupid. You dont have to live upto anything. Video games are not your Asian dads [not being racist, I am Asian, and its a meme] who want you to be the best in everything. Its fucking video games.They want you to show something that is fantasy. Its the best version of you, or the stereotypically/universally accepted best version of anybody.

Yeah, Men want to be with women with a body like Kate Upton. Women want Ryan Gosling lookalike. But thats society's problem. Its always been like that.

the December King:

...

Not sure where I am going here, but I assume toned or muscular men must be attractive to some women, or something.

I guess my point is, is that I want my escapist protagonist to make sense in the context of the narrative. Everything else in a game is classifiable as objectified, though not necessarily sexually- goals, interests, support, rabble, MOBs, etc.

I hope that made some sense- I thought it would when I started typing...

Wanting the game to make sense is fine. Though that is one of the common complaints people make when talking about over sexualized characters. The whole "chainmail bikini" thing.

That and as Jim said, while most of the time the male protagonist are usually "idolized" as something the player wants to be, strong in some way, powerful, good, or just very good at being bad. They can not be what most would call "sexy". Kratos may have a better body than it may be possible for a real person to have, but he is also kind of ugly in the face. At least compared to say,

Don't be hard on yourself, but keep in mind that you aren't the only one who feels bad.

Also, as you said about women playing games with characters they may not like? Well, they may not have much choice if they like the game but hate how the female characters look/act. You can like a game but hate the characters. And as for the "why aren't there more games with female characters made for females yet?" Well, as Jim said, some people don't even want women to come in and test the game yet, so asking them to focus on what women want when they won't even bring in some to see the game may be asking a bit much yet.

Clovus:

1337mokro:

Ashoten:
I have heard this argument before when people talk about comic book women being objectified. This is the best response I have seen.

Make of it what you will.

Question!!! Why does Superman shave his legs? HOW does Superman shave his legs? I mean Greenlantern I can get, Human with alien technology. How does Superman manage though? Industrial strength polymer leg waxing?

Like, maybe he just uses his breath to freeze his own leg and then just brushes them off. Or maybe he just, like, burns them off with this eyes.

Superman, the original inventor of laser hair removal! You should see his brazilian!

Though I did just get an entertaining mental image of evil superman from that new beat em up game 'helping' a gentleman with laser eye surgery.

Yay... this again. Guessing the last video didn't get a lot of views.

Constantly whining about this isn't going to change anything. Unless devs/publishers decide to change. Sales mean more than good characters to them and this whole "sexist" shit is the easiest way to do this. Macho men and women with big boobs are here to stay. They're trying to appeal to the biggest audience - men.

The horror!

Dire Sloth:
This is my idea of an idealized female protagonist:

Ugh, horrible. She doesn't even have boob shaped armor.

I noticed the other day that Dark Souls doesn't include female armor either. I'm guessing they weren't making a political statement though. Either it was cheaper or they just decided that it was idiotic for Havel's armor to change just because a femal was wearing it. Even the armor sets that are female don't look ridiculous, like the Painting Guardian's armor.

There was a recent article (can't link, at work) on Penny Arcade about how boob armor would probably get the person wearing it killed.

Monxeroth:

Well of course only if we objectively assume that objectifying can objectively only exist for one objective purpose to begin with, ie sex appeal in this case.
As in, objectifying is one thing and one definition only and thus can only be applied to females in that sense

But what if we then assume that objectification isnt just about that?

Lovely...

To cut to what I was saying, sans preamble this time:

How do we as the consumers help fix this issue? This is not like licensing or DRM. When a game sells well publishers think this was due to marketing. People bought bioshock infinite regardless of the cover, however I guarantee you the publishers believed that the gun-bro cover actually helped sell the game. So how do we show our desire not to support this practice without missing out on the games we want?

alj:
Do people really have a problem playing as a female character that is a bit concerning to say the least. And this brings me to something I have been thinking about recently.

You see people argue that "its just a game its not me doing that" and at the same time the same people wont play as a girl as they argue that the character is a projection of themselves. Well you cannot have it both ways. Ether its "just a game " and therefore who you play as should not be a problem for you or the character is a projection of yourself and its you who is using white phosphorus or butchering innocent people in an airport.

And why should every single character you play reflect your sex race and orientation? It would make for a very bland and boring world if all entertainment and art was like that.

I do not think the majority of people think this way, some will do(usually the young male adolescent) however the problem is the publishers thank think that they need to aim everything at this demographic, (publishers you need to get better market research departments seriously).

An example of how stupid this can get ...

Does anyone know of a game where you play as a 27 year old man who is

- slightly overweight
- has a long scruffy ponytail
- who has a beard because they are too lazy to shave

Anyone

Anyone ?

What a shame guess i cannot play any more games then.

see how stupid this can get

I'm not entirely sure what side you're arguing for here, honestly. People should branch out more (more solid female protagonists is a good thing) or things are fine (girls shouldn't complain about playing guys)?

Edit:

Bke:
When a game sells well publishers think this was due to marketing. People bought bioshock infinite regardless of the cover, however I guarantee you the publishers believed that the gun-bro cover actually helped sell the game. So how do we show our desire not to support this practice without missing out on the games we want?

Exactly like this video. Not letting the topic die. Making the conversation louder so publishers can't help but hear it. Not shutting up just because some people are "tired" of hearing the issue discussed. We'll stop talking about it when the industry changes its practices.

Superman cant burn his own hair with his laserbeams or freeze them off with his breath. His hair can withstand extreme temperatures and extreme cold perfectly fine. After all he got shot by so many lasers in his career and got frozen so often he should be bald like lex luthor by now.

Nah he would need a cryptonite razorblade to do that.

I don't quite get the problem. Yes, there are a lot of female gamers. But what is their demand? What games do they want to play? I have no problems with any girl to play Half-Life or Diablo. But what percentage of female audience wants to play such games? Male and female sectors of game market will be as unequal as cloth or accessory. men tend to dislike wearing skirts or pink. Females (if they are not business women/politicians) would never wear business suits. It's an obvious fact. Nowadays females form giant markets and they in most cases do not correlate to male markets. And gaming is the same thing. The PROBLEM is not objectification or whatever. The problem is actual absence of AAA-class female gaming. That is what to be solved. The industry must start producing those pink shorts/tight jeans/fur coats/jewelry IN ADDITION to modern cowboy hats and boots. That's it.

JarinArenos:

Exactly like this video. Not letting the topic die. Making the conversation louder so publishers can't help but hear it. Not shutting up just because some people are "tired" of hearing the issue discussed. We'll stop talking about it when the industry changes its practices.

By making sure Remember me sells well. If you want to support equality, buy remember me.

No I don't work for the company.

So what's wrong with having an idealised person in something that's just a fantasy again? I missed the part where that was demonstrated to have a causative negative effect. What's that? You can't demonstrate the causation? LOL sounds like the violent videogames = violent people bullshit all over again.

[quote="Karadalis" post="6.407898.17030026

I think the difference here is that an idealized character is still a character.. while an objectivied char... is wank material?

Solid snake for example had big char flaws.. objectified he would not have them.. he would all be "positive" traits.. and therefore very boring.

Or take away the personality of morrigan in Dragon age and she would be nothing more then a pole with tits. But add her personality and suddenly you have a bad ass female char with a somewhat grating personallity... you know.. like most badasses have?

There is a fine line between idealisation and sexualisation... it is crossed when the char is nothing but sexapeal and little else.

As for your other question in how this is bad: Well i guess Miss titsnass goes against the big moralic picture we all should adhere to but secretly enjoying to break all the time if we look at human culture as a whole and especialy the media industry.

Aslong as people buy the product.. the product maker will not make it more "unatractive" for his customers just to stand on the moral high ground.[/quote]

Well that's sort of what I was on about. They are not the same, and I understand that, but if they do cause the same problems then both should be considered valid points of criticism. Saying that male characters aren't objectifed, they're just idealized isn't much of an argument if that idealization leads to many or all of teh exact same issues that objectification does.

We shouldn't hold Miss T&A up as an actual ideal to strive for, but we sure as heck shouldn't hold up Kratos as one either. WHile Kratos has agency and characterization, this idealized version of masculinity is every bit a abhorrent as Miss T&A's version of femininity.

Jimothy Sterling:
Your use of forward slashes has totally changed my way of doing things. I'll do a top ten gaming babes next week.

My gf as #1?

Or if it's the digital ones, I vote Garcia Hotspur as #1.

Anyways, I see objectification on both sides. But men don't get it as bad because in games we're portrayed as how we've always wanted to look and act, not how women want us to look and act.

Jim,

I agree that using an apples to apples comparison to sexualizing for male and female roles is true. Males have never been as sexualized compared to Females. The problem I am seeing with your viewpoint over men issues is that you seem to assume that male issues is over being overpostive or a dream standard that most men can not achieve. While that argument itself is not invalid, you fail horribly in finding negative roles for men in gaming.

Men are disposable. The disposablity of men are such a normal thing, that we are just numb at seeing it. In the GCN game 'Geist' there is a part of the game where you kill a soldier near a computer. If you actually read the computer, it will be a letter to his wife on how he will be home. If that letter didn't exist, you wouldn't care that you killed that soldier. You wouldn't care that he died, yet now that you gain the knowledge that you just killed a loving husband, how do you feel? Remorse? Sadness? Regret? All irrelevant.

In video games, you are told to kill waves and waves of men with no back-story, no reasons to exist but to die by your hand. Even NPC's that you work with can be just as disposable. Your comrades may die in the game, and unless he is your best friend, you are not given a reason to care. His existence is to be no more than a cold body on the floor and reinforce your need to kill for vengeance.

A man's life is of lesser value than a woman's life. I highly doubt in the current culture you can debate that idea. Sure you can say both men and women are equal in their value of life, but that's not how video games or any media treats it. If you were given an option to kill 10 men or save 1 woman, what would you choose? Is a woman's life more valuable then those ten men?

I will even go back to just using women as sexual objects. In games, women have a place, but their deaths are something to ponder before chopping their head off. In many games, women are not killed off in some shameless or useless reason to reinforce killing, most of the time their death has a value. You can and will find examples to prove the opposite to what I just said, but most games do not use women's death in the same manner as men.

Jim, the points you have are good but they don't even drill far into the iceberg of sexual roles and negative contexts of those roles.

Surprised this needed to be spelled out for some people but if Mr. Ruffled Feathers trying to sweep it under the rug is any indication, it does.

Jim, I have a suggestion: just lock these threads or don't make them. They all invariably descend into furious bitch-slapping competitions of who can abuse the shift key the most.

Dire Sloth:
This is my idea of an idealized female protagonist:

YESSSSS! Can't fucking agree more.

Because unlike most other "strong female protagonists", she actually is aware she is still a woman instead of just being a woman acting in the role of a man and shunning all things womanly.

What Jimmy fails to see is that idealization IS a form of objectification.

Yes... The kind of male characters you see in games are IDEAL men BUT SO ARE THE WOMEN!

***NEWSFLASH***

The kind of women exhibited in videogames are IDEAL women!!!

Clovus:

Dire Sloth:
This is my idea of an idealized female protagonist:

Ugh, horrible. She doesn't even have boob shaped armor.

There was a recent article (can't link, at work) on Penny Arcade about how boob armor would probably get the person wearing it killed.

Ha! And no worries. I'll try hunting it down.

I like boobs your harsh oposistion of boobs makes me sad! I also feel you that you flaunting of your mighty form makes me sad also. You are cruel as both of these things are currently out of my reach.

P.S Also your shows are amusing and I feel you keep it fresh so screw the detractors and keep on saying whatever the smeg you like.

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