Jimquisition: Objectification And... Men?

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CrossLOPER:
But the women are being idealized as well! Who doesn't want an attractive female who depends on her man?

That's still objectifying women - it's framing women as some thing for men to want.

If you had said "what woman doesn't want to be..." you'd have the basis for an idealized character.

But then the character design would have to deal with the issue that so very very few women think having massive boobs with a petite frame is more attractive and preferable, and yet even fewer would think highly of being dependant on her man.

the December King:
I always felt that the protagonist/hero in an adventure story should most likely reflect what is needed or wanted of him or her. Lara Croft has to have 'sexy' (or in practical terms, developed and strong) abs and legs to make jump after jump and climb ridiculous things. She has to be fit, and to many people fit is sexy, on a very basic level.

I'm sorry, but the "the women have to look like for what they do in the game to be realistically feasible" does not work.

I guarantee you, a woman who could 'realistically' do all that Lara Croft does has 0 boob - all muscle (thighs and butt for that matter as well). A real life woman who can do what Lara Croft does has the same body as Kratos. Well, minus the willy.

the December King:
Not sure where I am going here, but I assume toned or muscular men must be attractive to some women, or something.

Yes, there are some who do find that attractive.
But the point is that they are incidental to it all, they aren't the target.

And another fish in a bucket bites the dust! (boomheadshot-criticalhit-itsover9000!!1!!one1)

Not that the internet is not full of fishes in buckets needing some shooting, but this is not one of your videos where your eloquent wording described a problem in a way/from a angle I couldnt find myself.

There are many people on the internet making a stupid argument, no one man can adress them all!

Id also like to add that I personaly dont see the typical male game muscly peabrain protagonist as something to look up at.

Mosley_Harmless:
As far as I'm concerned, videogames exist to provide a virtual fantasy world. Don't get upset because you don't belong in the target audience of the person providing the fantasy. As for sexual objectification, Roger Ebert sums it up pretty well in his "Hugh Hefner has been good for us" article:

"Nobody taught me to regard women as sex objects. I always did. Most men do. And truth to tell, most women regard men as sex objects. We regard many other aspects of another person, but sex is the elephant in the room. Evolution has hard-wired us that way. When we meet a new person, in some small recess of our minds we evaluate that person as a sex partner. We don't act on it, we don't dwell on it, but we do it. You know we do. And this process continues bravely until we are old and feeble."

Now please, stop being so goddamn sensitive.

DGMockingJay:

THIS...

Please, stop being so critical of a medium because it is not serving to the demographic of your choice. Do you see men whining about the romantic novels only catering to female readers??

Ever wondered why the talk about sexism is only happening now, and not 10-15 years go?? Thats because women are only entering the industry now. Gaming was beneath them, or unavailable to them or, or they were not allowed to play games by patriarchal society, and only now they are being accepted as a hobby by females. They are new. And as much as you claim they are the 47% of the demographic, they are NOT.

Well, they are unless you start counting the occasional angry bird gamers or browser gamers. Come to think of it, my mom is a gamer too[since she plays spider solitaire]. I wonder if she'd want to play Assassins Creed 4 when it comes out.

I think the bigger issue here is not the 'regarding as', but 'treating as'. You are expected to be able to keep your junk in your pants and treat people with some basic respect, not blindly hobble after base insticts. Even monkeys can do it.

Same goes for popular media. Sure theres a place for DoA and Gears of War, just like in movies theres a place for porn and cheesy action flicks, books have place for erotic novels and whatnot, etc etc. This does not mean we want a whole bloody medium to be just porn and muscly peabrains (and those who do want that, why the hell are you complaining? there not every going to be a shortage of those)

Also romance novels are a genre, not a medium. Gaming is a medium, shooters are a genre. 'male-centric' is not even an essential part of shooters. Try and think a bit harder about your analogies.

You are pretty spot-on with this subject. It always annoys me that female character always get stuck with the same stereotype, being the hot model with the slim body, but the male characters have dozens of types to choose from. Fat, ugly, slim, muscular, miss formed and more. Games with rosters of characters like fighting games or League of legends really show the lack of creativity (or too much fan-service), concerning the the female body type. All females have the same "perfect" body.

But besides the visuals we also lack the cool female characters who are cool for their characteristics, not their body.

FFP2:
Yay... this again. Guessing the last video didn't get a lot of views.

Constantly whining about this isn't going to change anything. Unless devs/publishers decide to change. Sales mean more than good characters to them and this whole "sexist" shit is the easiest way to do this. Macho men and women with big boobs are here to stay. They're trying to appeal to the biggest audience - men.

The horror!

Well what else are people supposed to do in order to get the change they think is long overdue? Arguing and raising the debate is the only way to influence publisher (or, of course, not buying the games -- but then again, raising the issue is important). And Jim specifically said that the audience of video games is far more diverse than people think, it's not vastly more men than women.

Jim there's one argument I like to bring up when talk up of objectification in games comes up, and I'd like to know what you think.

Why should we care about objectifying fictional characters?

As far as I'm concerned because they don't actually exist, they're beneath objects on the global scale of importance and turning them into objects would be an upgrade if they were actually being turned to objects.

I've heard that it's off putting to women but why is the argument always that 'it puts women off to all video games' rather than 'it puts off women to those specific games'? I mean there has been a rise in women playing so how much have they really put off women to all games?

Psykoma:

But then the character design would have to deal with the issue that so very very few women think having massive boobs with a petite frame is more attractive and preferable, and yet even fewer would think highly of being dependant on her man.

How well do you think a game would sell if all the women were obese and had the personalities of reclusive anti-Semites?

Zachary Amaranth:

When did I suggest that? Because I'll gladly chew myself out for saying something that wrong.

...Or I would, if it was true.

You brought up a specific subgroup of people.

I know what Jim means but I disagree to a certain extent. Whilst women are often made to be sex objects, men are made into objects of violence. Reduced to nothing but a grunting monster that just wants violence and slaughter. Thats not one of my ideals and I don't wan't to be that.

Theres a guy in skyrim called Hrongar who sums this up "I'm not a man I'm a weapon in human form".
image

I will obviously admit that women have it a lot worse. It's just that objectification of men does exist and it is a valid complaint. It's just that I don't think devs should be told to curb their games in anyway, to avoid offending people or making it safer for certain groups. Not because I don't want women enjoying games, just because I don't like it when art is stifled and censored.

Orbot_Vectorman:

Jimothy Sterling:

Orbot_Vectorman:
Hey, I take offence to that. J/k. But yea, he isn't apart of the big "AAA" releases, so unfortunately our favorite psychopathic red head can't be used for this argument.

Even if Postal was AAA, the argument is a very flawed one. In general, male heroes are idealized. I do not believe, however, that ALL male characters are idealized. We're only dealing with the general and common examples here. Of course anti-heroes, flawed heroes, and downright villain protagonists exist. I always Kane & Lynch's best feature was how it starred two characters who were both physically *and* psychologically ugly people.

But again, male characters are allowed to be flawed, ugly, and even broken. Female protagonists, not so much.

True, very true. But, (And I'm sorry for potentially playing devils advocate)the flip side to this argument is, IF they made a flawed (physically or mentally) there could be a potential uproar over it.

Maybe, but I must ask, so? There will always be some uproar about any game. Hell, remember when Jim made the joke about the people who made an uproar about Sonic's eyes being made green?(hahaha...that was funny)

That, and there have already been female characters in games that have been ugly physically and mentally (sometimes both but most just mentally) before. Granted, most were not the protagonist, but I don't remember much complaining about them. Not to say that there wasn't, but if there was it wasn't very widespread. Plus we could use something not so over done once in a while.

Here's another thing: An ideal woman, even from a woman's point of view, would look attractive to most men. Because who doesn't want to look attractive?

Ukomba:
Don't both genders want to be desirable? Making male characters appeal to men, means making a man whom women want. Old and grizzled can still be attractive to women. Sean Connery won People's Sexiest Man Alive at 59, and there are regularly men over 40. It seems to come down to more what each gender finds attractive and playing to that. Women buy those skimpy outfits and try to pull off those looks even when they shouldn't.

Games are playing up that old 'men are shallow, women are deep' stereotype of what each find attractive. Not necessarily wrongly. My wife can watch Hunchback of Notre Dame and say Esmeralda should have chosen Quasimodo. And it seems just as many women go for the dark, troubled, and brooding Snape as do Edward or Jacob.

For the record, I'd like to see more variety of women in games for variety's sake, but this might be more of a 'men and women are different' issue. I personally like the female avatars. I preferred Fem Shepard to Male Shepard, and had no problem romancing Garrus with her. My wife preferred a blond male renegade Shepard.

*Side question* is Jack from Mass Effect objectified? She wears the skimpiest outfit and I'm sure fits some peoples definition of desirable.

*Side Side note* Is it weird to find Kasumi and Tali the most attractive females in Mass Effect? They are the most covered.

(M)Ass Effect 2 wins the trophy for most objectified women. Aside from Jack, you have Samara, the justicar with high red heels. But the 1st place goes to Miranda, because the camera always focuses on her ass.

Azaraxzealot:

Dire Sloth:
This is my idea of an idealized female protagonist:

YESSSSS! Can't fucking agree more.

Because unlike most other "strong female protagonists", she actually is aware she is still a woman instead of just being a woman acting in the role of a man and shunning all things womanly.

If you watch GoT (I'm assuming you do):

CrossLOPER:

Psykoma:

But then the character design would have to deal with the issue that so very very few women think having massive boobs with a petite frame is more attractive and preferable, and yet even fewer would think highly of being dependant on her man.

How well do you think a game would sell if all the women were obese and had the personalities of reclusive anti-Semites?

Except that's not the argument you posted. You posted that women are idealized as well, but sorry - they aren't.

And even then, women who women find attractive wouldn't be "obese [with] the personalities of reclusive anti-Semites", they would still be attractive to the vast majority of men.

For the 'smug' bit you could have just put up a flashing sign saying "satire". Maybe then people would connect the dots, or learn a new word...
Has anyone ever ask female players what they'd like their female (and male) characters to look and act like?

Women in video games are idealised. Unless you think that women don't want to look attractive.

Ashoten:
I have heard this argument before when people talk about comic book women being objectified. This is the best response I have seen.

image

Make of it what you will.

What's this supposed to prove? There's no male heroes in burqas, high heels or dresses either. I think you know why.

TheThirdChild:
For the 'smug' bit you could have just put up a flashing sign saying "satire". Maybe then people would connect the dots, or learn a new word...
Has anyone ever ask female players what they'd like their female (and male) characters to look and act like?

Except that it's not "their" characters. It's the writer and artist's characters.

I'm sick of seeing entitled whining from people who get the privilege to play someone else's work.

1337mokro:

Clovus:

1337mokro:

Question!!! Why does Superman shave his legs? HOW does Superman shave his legs? I mean Greenlantern I can get, Human with alien technology. How does Superman manage though? Industrial strength polymer leg waxing?

Like, maybe he just uses his breath to freeze his own leg and then just brushes them off. Or maybe he just, like, burns them off with this eyes.

Can Superman's powers harm himself? His hair is basically indestructible if not he'd have his glorious mullet burned of every single time a heat based enemy was encountered. So why should there be an exception for his own heat vision which still works on the same principles and does not seem to be all that strong, compared to other heat powers in the same universe.

Kryptonite razorblades?


There you go.

Psykoma:

And even then, women who women find attractive wouldn't be "obese [with] the personalities of reclusive anti-Semites".

I think you read two different posts, one of them being mine, and somehow merged them together in your mind because I never said that.

Psykoma:

Except that's not the argument you posted. You posted that women are idealized as well, but sorry - they aren't.

i·de·al·ize (-d-lz)
v. i·de·al·ized, i·de·al·iz·ing, i·de·al·iz·es
v.tr.
1. To regard as ideal.
2. To make or envision as ideal.
v.intr.
1. To render something as an ideal.
2. To conceive ideals or an ideal.

They are so long as they fit someone's ideal.

Jim's choice of words was poor.

JarinArenos:

Exactly like this video. Not letting the topic die. Making the conversation louder so publishers can't help but hear it. Not shutting up just because some people are "tired" of hearing the issue discussed. We'll stop talking about it when the industry changes its practices.

However I wonder about the effectiveness about talking about it. While Jim is right to think that his predicted console market collapse will bring and end, or at least a change, to DRM and other such practices, I don't think this is such a prominent issue to be considered in the proceeding regrowth after the collapse.

If we look at what happened in the 80's, consumers became disillusioned because of poor quality control, leaving Nintendo strictly controlling its releases even today. If another collapse were to occur, or even something near to it, how could we ensure that sexism is indeed identified as one of the causes from a profit standpoint?

Of course speaking to the publishers and developers is one way, but the feeling I got from replies to the e-mails I sent is that this is still a non-issue in the eyes of publishers, and may have been brought up too late in this "second era" of gaming history to see effective change come soon enough.

I suppose I answer my own question by way of pointing out that we can't directly "vote with our wallets" on this matter, but it's still sad to think the industry may still have to endure another era with cliché stereotyping. But I can see no way to alter this course.

Internet-"Hey! There is a problem"

Me- "What is it?"

Internet-"Women in games are over sexualized!!!"

Me-"Why is that a problem?"

Internet-"because some people don't like it"

Me-"Well I don't like tomatoes on my tacos"

Internet-"Derp,Derp'Derp"

Me-"Is it hurting people?"

Internet-"Well there is absolutely no evidence but we say it is... so yes it is hurting people."

Me-"Ohh, so what do you plan to do about your problem?

Internet-"Just another wave of over entitled bitching about someone's art form and how things have to change"

Me-"Really? I just don't buy tacos that have tomatoes on them, some people like tomatoes on their tacos so I don't think it has to change"

Internet-"Derp,Derp,Derp"

**Disclaimer**
This was a fictional dramatization of a typical conversation with the internet.

Is there a solution in this mire of sexism in video games that doesn't trample all over an artists creative design? Or is it nothing more than a whine about stuff people don't like. I hear thousands of people AGAINST sexism in video games and AGAINST over sexualized women and now even the idealization of men. Never once have I heard someone FOR a solution to this supposed problem, just whiners and the supposed moderates that say we should have discussions about it which is just a cowards way of supporting the whiners by giving credence to their argument.

I have yet to see any correlation between how female characters are portrayed in games and any harm to women in reality besides "it offends me". And I have yet to see anyone forcing anyone else to buy and play games that offend them. Well, besides game reviewers.

CrossLOPER:

Psykoma:

And even then, women who women find attractive wouldn't be "obese [with] the personalities of reclusive anti-Semites".

I think you read two different posts, one of them being mine, and somehow merged them together in your mind because I never said that.

Psykoma:

Except that's not the argument you posted. You posted that women are idealized as well, but sorry - they aren't.

i·de·al·ize (-d-lz)
v. i·de·al·ized, i·de·al·iz·ing, i·de·al·iz·es
v.tr.
1. To regard as ideal.
2. To make or envision as ideal.
v.intr.
1. To render something as an ideal.
2. To conceive ideals or an ideal.

They are so long as they fit someone's ideal.

Jim's choice of words was poor.

No, they are idealized if they fit the general ideals of the group they represent.
Women game characters are what they think men find ideal in women, that's not idealization, that's objectification.
If the women game characters were what they thought women would find ideal in women, then that would be idealization.

verdant monkai:
I know what Jim means but I disagree to a certain extent. Whilst women are often made to be sex objects, men are made into objects of violence. Reduced to nothing but a grunting monster that just wants violence and slaughter. Thats not one of my ideals and I don't wan't to be that.

Theres a guy in skyrim called Hrongar who sums this up "I'm not a man I'm a weapon in human form".

I will obviously admit that women have it a lot worse. It's just that objectification of men does exist and it is a valid complaint. It's just that I don't think devs should be told to curb their games in anyway, to avoid offending people or making it safer for certain groups. Not because I don't want women enjoying games, just because I don't like it when art is stifled and censored.

True. There are many "manly men" in Skyrim, but there are also men who don't at all fit that description(Nazeem=prick). Just as there are women in Skyrim who are pretty girly girls, and other women will cut your head off as soon as they look at you(not just the bandits). Some aren't even that pretty either. Though, none on either gender are fat.

That said, Skyrim is kind of the exception that proves the rule. There are many different types of male/female characters because that's what the game is famous for, and that is how they are made almost always.

Many other games can't say that.

Psykoma:

the December King:
I always felt that the protagonist/hero in an adventure story should most likely reflect what is needed or wanted of him or her. Lara Croft has to have 'sexy' (or in practical terms, developed and strong) abs and legs to make jump after jump and climb ridiculous things. She has to be fit, and to many people fit is sexy, on a very basic level.

I'm sorry, but the "the women have to look like for what they do in the game to be realistically feasible" does not work.

I guarantee you, a woman who could 'realistically' do all that Lara Croft does has 0 boob - all muscle (thighs and butt for that matter as well). A real life woman who can do what Lara Croft does has the same body as Kratos. Well, minus the willy.

the December King:
Not sure where I am going here, but I assume toned or muscular men must be attractive to some women, or something.

Yes, there are some who do find that attractive.
But the point is that they are incidental to it all, they aren't the target.

Fair enough, I suppose, but again I was suggesting that the characters in action/adventure games should look like they COULD do some of the things they do, but I didn't mean to imply any sense of realism.

Because there is none, really.

If you get shot you can't normally hide for a moment and then regenerate, for example.

Rock-climbers and long-jumpers don't all look like WWE headliners. I was just saying that Lara fits the image/ideal better than, say, a non mountain- climbing, long-jumping stripper. Or something.

And again, the target would be the audience that pays the company for a product, so if giant ham-fisted troglydyte for a protagonist appeals to the demographic, you pander your suits off to make that money. And if there really are almost 50% of gamers basically not bothering to speak up, the squeaky wheels will get the grease, I guess?

YES!!!!!!

Thank God for Jim. Because now, whenever some dolt brings up the "herpaderp, but menz are sexualised too!1!" in the eternal sexism discussion threads, I can just link them to this rather than having to write out paragraph upon paragraph of gender role theory.

Seriously, I don't care how many times its been brought up, it needs to keep getting brought up until developers and publishers actually make an effort for it to go away.

Father Time:
Jim there's one argument I like to bring up when talk up of objectification in games comes up, and I'd like to know what you think.

Why should we care about objectifying fictional characters?

Because whether they're fictional or not, the way they are represented not only tells us how the author, artist or developer feels about a character, but also how they feel about the demographic of which that character is from.

image

A developer who includes a blatantly racist portrayal of a black character isn't just demeaning the character himself. He is also insulting any black person who might play the game, by saying he doesn't care what reaction it may provoke. That developer is essentially saying explicitly how little he cares for black people, by including a character whose only purpose is to negatively portray black people.

It's the same with female characters. A developer who portrays women in an unhealthily objectified way isn't just demeaning their characters, they're insulting any women who may want to play the game. They're saying "This is what I think of you, and anyone of your gender!" And when those portrayals frequently look like this or this, that's a big problem in the industry.

I've heard that it's off putting to women but why is the argument always that 'it puts women off to all video games' rather than 'it puts off women to those specific games'? I mean there has been a rise in women playing so how much have they really put off women to all games?

Because it is endemic in a large proportion of 'triple-A' games, to the point that many women probably look at how your average female character is portrayed, and feel it's not worth getting into gaming at all.

The main area where women have been getting into gaming is 'casual' gaming. A form of gaming where, to contrast, negative portrayals of female characters tend to be far less endemic, given how abstract or non-narrative based those games tend to be. It's kind of hard to objectify a female character in something like Fruit Ninja or Cut The Rope.

DrunkenElfMage:

Jack and Calumon:
All very good points and arguments that have, unfortunately, been covered many times by many people for about a year now. Sure, people still use this defence so you could argue it bears repeating, but honestly this has been said ad nauseum. No new perspectives were brought up, no new ideas, just the ones covered by everyone else.

Not that it detracts from the points you've made. I firmly agree, it's just dull to see what you've seen before.

Calumon's sleeping, I'm lazy. Bleck.

You'd be surprised to find out just how many people don't know or haven't seen things that you would think that everyone should have heard about already.

I know people who haven't seen Star Wars, anime fans who haven't watched Cowboy Bebop, shooter fans who haven't played Half Life, Half Life 2, or Portal.

Just because you think everyone has heard this already, doesn't mean they have and if a tenth of the audience Jim has has learned something new, then I would say this is a video well made.

I think if anyone cared about this debate enough to watch this, they would have seen this. Heck, MovieBob did it nearly a year ago. and I'm not even going to point out the massive amounts of people who've said this in forum debates, blog posts and several articles.

I did say that the argument is still being said and that does grant, perhaps, repeating that counterpoint until people stop saying it. My point is is that the vast majority of people have heard this and this video is dull because of that. We've heard this before, it's been said already. The majority have heard this and now we're having the same thing but with Jim's face and voice. You can argue that if someone's going to get enlightened, it's worth doing sure. That doesn't mean I can't say it was boring for me to watch because in my view, this is very slow on the ball.

Calumon likes people. End of. Go home.

Jimothy Sterling:
Your use of forward slashes has totally changed my way of doing things. I'll do a top ten gaming babes next week.

With a piece of female Willem Dafoe fan art making a surprise win on the number one spot, right? It counts because of Beyond: Two Souls!

Legion:

Muspelheim:
Even if the arguement that both male and female characters are equally objectified would be entirely true, I can't for the life of me see how that solves anything. It would only make the problem worse, wouldn't it? It doesn't really seem like another reason to just ignore it and go on as usual if the problem is that much larger.

The thing is, that most people from what I have seen do not use the "They are both objectified" argument as a way of suggesting that it should be ignored, but as a way of pointing out that the issue isn't with bad female characters, but with bad characters overall.

That writers should be working on writing decent characters in the first place, rather than simply trying to fix female characters.

Note that I am not expressing my own opinion, merely pointing out what I have seen when people actually talk about male objectification.

Although I would say that despite most male characters being written to appeal to male gamers. They pretty much exist to make "witty" one liners and shoot things. So while they are not "objectified", they are pretty bad in their own right, as the "ideal" male is apparently a meat head with the inability to converse like a normal person, no emotions or value for human life.

Which I think is the point people who make the argument are trying to get across.

Well some of them.

There does seem to be a fair amount of people who actually think the muscular men in gaming are the equivalent of the sexualised women. Which is worrying.

It depends on the guy and the girl in question. Dante didn't go shirtless for the guys to look at his abs.

As someone that has used that argument in the past, I do so more to address the issue of self image: specifically that stereotypically men don't look at Kratos and think they need to hit the gym while an attractive female character seems to put off women that can't live up to the big boobs and thin waists. It isn't that I don't get where women are coming from, but I think the wrong message gets taken away. I'm a 35 your old hairy guy with minor acne, crooked teeth, and a beer gut, and I don't get self conscious when I see Dante, or Brad Pitt, or a muscle bound guy in tights in a comic book. I'm not always happy with everything about me, but I know I don't have to live up to some ideal, especially one that can only exist digitally, or through plastic surgery, starvation diets, non-stop exercise, and drugs.

But an element behind these gender topics is that yes, a lot of women still feel the need to live up to the Lara Crofts, and the response is to minimize their usage, not to try and break through their personal beauty myth. I'd like to think that a something women could learn from the guys in these debates is that you don't need to have your self worth dictated by how much you match something designed to be an unrealistic fantasy, and that the problem we do have with the beauty myth, exists less because of the myth's existence, but on people that do seem to think that their fantasy should be reality. Don't attack Lara Croft for being attractive, or anyone that finds her attractive. Attack those that expect you to be her, especially if that someone is yourself.

DVS BSTrD:
That's why they have a whole game world made for them to do just that. The females on the other hand... you don't get 8 hour games about putting on make-up, doing cardio at the gym, sticking to a low fat diet and shopping for impractical fanservice clothing. =/

Well, not any good games anyway.

I know you didn't mean it, but that sounded terribly sexist right there, I think you might want to word it differently... :D

As someone pointed out before, the point about living up to any standard is madness. If your friends pressure into certain standards, they aren't really your friends, and if it's your family doing it, well, they might still be your family, but they might just suck. And society is pretty much a faceless, shapeless thing, getting pushed by it into doing anything is something I can't really understand. Also, even if someone was pressuring you into anything, you still have a functioning brain, which allows you to disregard any dumb suggestion thrown your way.

Also, I believe it's a bit unfair to arbitrarily say: "if males are inept in this media, that's a standard which is easy to meet, while if they act like badasses in that media, then it's just empowering". I agree there is an issue in variety and quality of female characters portrayal in videogames, but that's just cherry picking.

Groenteman:
Same goes for popular media. Sure theres a place for DoA and Gears of War, just like in movies theres a place for porn and cheesy action flicks, books have place for erotic novels and whatnot, etc etc. This does not mean we want a whole bloody medium to be just porn and muscly peabrains (and those who do want that, why the hell are you complaining? there not every going to be a shortage of those)

Also romance novels are a genre, not a medium. Gaming is a medium, shooters are a genre. 'male-centric' is not even an essential part of shooters. Try and think a bit harder about your analogies.

The medium has several genres that serve to men.FPS and Fighting Simulators for example. Just like books have a genre that serve females specifically.

Thats not to say that video games as a medium cater exclusively to men. I mean if the idea is, that there are no game that exist in this world that have good female characters, women would like, then thats truly not the case. Games like Tomb Raider, Mass Effect, Dragon Age, Resident Evil 6 + Revelations, Beyond Two Souls, Remember Me have good female characters, and most of them are recent or upcoming.

Nobody asks for these games. They just exist. And now with the advent of female gamer demographic, this type of games are only going to increase. Organic growth. Do you think teenage girls demanded chick flicks to be made?? No. People make them still because there is demand.

Also, Look at Wii games. Now I wont say it serves to females, but the number of female gamers on Wii is massive, even more than men [80% of Wii owner are females]. Now they must be doing something to attract the female gamers, I am sure.

Also I find it tough to believe that 47% of gamers are women even though the games exclusively cater to men.. I dont think such a large number of women are playing games even though games dont even consider their needs.

Psykoma:

No, they are idealized if they fit the general ideals of the group they represent.


Women game characters are what they think men find ideal in women, that's not idealization, that's objectification.
If the women game characters were what they thought women would find ideal in women, then that would be idealization.

i·de·al (-dl, -dl)
n.
1. A conception of something in its absolute perfection.
2. One that is regarded as a standard or model of perfection or excellence.
3. An ultimate object of endeavor; a goal.
4. An honorable or worthy principle or aim.
adj.
1.
a. Of, relating to, or embodying an ideal.
b. Conforming to an ultimate form or standard of perfection or excellence.
2. Considered the best of its kind.
3. Completely or highly satisfactory: The location of the new house is ideal.
4.
a. Existing only in the mind; imaginary.
b. Lacking practicality or the possibility of realization.
5. Of, relating to, or consisting of ideas or mental images.
6. Philosophy
a. Existing as an archetype or pattern, especially as a Platonic idea or perception.
b. Of or relating to idealism.

Idealism is subjective.

I also question the assertion that having the personality of an angry cardboard box is an "ideal" that men strive for.

I have brought this up several times now so I am going to sound like a broken record, Soapapras, Romantic Comedies, Twilight, did any of these make any effort to appeal to men, to include men? Did they ever even discuss it.

Even stuff that is supposed to be for a primarily male audience has horrible male characters, Two and a Half men, Big Bang Theory, IT Crowd.
Only in very very few cases is the tide turning and now the guy who played Al Bundy, one of the most pathetic examples of men, is playing Jay, an almost Yoda-like character in a family comedy.

That said, the point is kind of valid. And there have been two instances when I have actually seen men objectified,DMC and Two Broke Girls' Candy Man, and I loved both because finally men are being shown as describable to women.

Still, I don't see why gamers are the only ones discussing problems in their media while female audience remains complete quiet about how men are treated in things that are supposed to appeal mainly to them. Once when I was trying to search for anything with a 2 girl one guy love triangle, a woman's post I saw, and several people agreed with her, said that they would hate such a thing and not want to see it. And because of them I don't get anything to wipe out the disgust I feel seeing two men fight for a woman, it made the Dark Knight unwatchable for me, it made Legend of Korra unwatchable and it may make Arrow unwatchable too.

the December King:
Why do I often come here to hear about games and entertainment, and end up leaving feeling like someone has tried to make me feel bad for being a white male?

I don't think anyone, maybe not even the creators themselves (maybe) go in with that intent...

It's just that so many people think that the White Male is the DEFAULT only kind of person that exists, and treat everyone else is some strange exotic other-wordly oddity that they have no idea what to do with/address like a normal freakin human being. Soooo what happens is that you either make the Other Worldly Oddities A) trophies only if they look pretty enough to make you look that much cooler, B) the default enemy when they're ugly enough/TOO different, or C) make their differences the DEFINING trait about them (or at least overwhelming trait), beating you over the head with "LOOK AT HOW DIFFERENT I AM! THIS GAME/SHOW/MOVIE CARES ABOUT DIFFERENT PEOPLE! PRAISE US FOR ACKNOWLEDGING THAT DIFFERENT PEOPLE EXIST DESPITE HOW PEDANTIC THE REST OF OUR PRODUCT IS!"

Thanks, media producer person. Captain Obvious wasn't around so good thing you were here to tell me this amazing discovery.

The problem is, Jim, that some men in some games are objectified - certainly on a purely visual level. I'd cite Dante, from the most recent DMC game. Both he and his gorgeous-looking twin brother are dreamily good-looking young men, designed by someone with a VERY keen appreciation of male beauty. Personally (and speaking as a gay man) I can't get enough of a look at him (opening cut-scene FTW!).

It is true enough to say that in most games most male characters are indeed idealised; but in a few, like DMC, they are clearly objectified as well - and as us Brits would say: Gwooarh! Eh?

Orekoya:

1337mokro:

Clovus:

Like, maybe he just uses his breath to freeze his own leg and then just brushes them off. Or maybe he just, like, burns them off with this eyes.

Can Superman's powers harm himself? His hair is basically indestructible if not he'd have his glorious mullet burned of every single time a heat based enemy was encountered. So why should there be an exception for his own heat vision which still works on the same principles and does not seem to be all that strong, compared to other heat powers in the same universe.

Kryptonite razorblades?


There you go.

I think he uses his laser eyes, because its fast and efficient.

If his hairs were really indestructible, how come his own laser eyes destroys them??

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