Jimquisition: Objectification And... Men?

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verdant monkai:
I know what Jim means but I disagree to a certain extent. Whilst women are often made to be sex objects, men are made into objects of violence. Reduced to nothing but a grunting monster that just wants violence and slaughter. Thats not one of my ideals and I don't wan't to be that.

Theres a guy in skyrim called Hrongar who sums this up "I'm not a man I'm a weapon in human form".
image

I will obviously admit that women have it a lot worse. It's just that objectification of men does exist and it is a valid complaint. It's just that I don't think devs should be told to curb their games in anyway, to avoid offending people or making it safer for certain groups. Not because I don't want women enjoying games, just because I don't like it when art is stifled and censored.

The problem is the genders are not equal. Men are not judged by how big and strong they look in the real world. Woman are still judged based on how attractive they are. Lets face it men are running the show in almost every area of life that matters Government, supervisors and CEO's and other management positions.

DVS BSTrD:
I get that a lot here on the escapist :P

Shamefur Dispray!

image

Sorry, I couldn't help myself, this meme got stuck in my mind, for some reason.

But we should get you a PR guy, if that happens too often!

Magog1:
Tell us jim,
would you be happy if the main lead was hideos rotting zombie woman with zero sex appeal?

Are you asking for ugly women in anti hero roles for the sense of diversity?

Sounds neat. I'd be curious about the game.. question is would i rent it let alone buy it?

I wanna give that question to everyone at the forum honestly.

If it's a good game, why not?

Some of us don't buy things purely on the sex appeal of the cover girl, y'know.

Raiyan 1.0:

the December King:
Why do I often come here to hear about games and entertainment, and end up leaving feeling like someone has tried to make me feel bad for being a white male? Did I do something wrong in playing certain games and liking them?

Quit being disingenuous. Jim didn't criticize games that have idealized male protagonists or its audiences. He was criticizing those who try to equate objectification and idealization.

I dunno, man. I got the impression that it was targeted at a particular demographic. Almost as usuall.

And quite honestly, I'm made uncomfortable with idealizations as often as objectifications. If I end up just as bemused by the abs of the protagonist as I am the bosom of an NPC, then I can certainly see where some people might see an equivalence.

Corran006:

verdant monkai:
I know what Jim means but I disagree to a certain extent. Whilst women are often made to be sex objects, men are made into objects of violence. Reduced to nothing but a grunting monster that just wants violence and slaughter. Thats not one of my ideals and I don't wan't to be that.

Theres a guy in skyrim called Hrongar who sums this up "I'm not a man I'm a weapon in human form".
image

I will obviously admit that women have it a lot worse. It's just that objectification of men does exist and it is a valid complaint. It's just that I don't think devs should be told to curb their games in anyway, to avoid offending people or making it safer for certain groups. Not because I don't want women enjoying games, just because I don't like it when art is stifled and censored.

The problem is the genders are not equal. Men are not judged by how big and strong they look in the real world. Woman are still judged based on how attractive they are. Lets face it men are running the show in almost every area of life that matters Government, supervisors and CEO's and other management positions.

Sorry, but I have to disagree. There is absolutely research that indicates that how tall and good looking men are directly correlates to how much they earn and what positions they are hired/promoted to.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with this show because this show is based upon a single individuals critique where they put forth their ideas about a subject.

The real issue is those whom, for whatever reason, have a belief that they "feel" they must defend as a universal "truth" are justified in doing so in any manner they see fit.

When you treat your 'opinion' as a 'statement' without a frame-work to justify your logic than you simply trying to "convince" someone of your "point".

Argument vs Discussion

To argue is the attempt to convince another party of your point or a point on a subject matter. There are certain rules in place when you argue, things you can say, places you can come from; this also applies to Discussion.

So. When Jim, and other writers on this site, present their ideas on these subject, they are subjecting them to discussion not for argument.

Because they are not trying to insert an ideology you do not have to be offended by what they say. You can disagree and that is completely okay, however, if you are offended and experience anger than you are only hurting yourself.

You have to stop and ask yourself why some of you feel so vehemently upset when new data is presented to you and because it conflicts with a previous idea you had that you must "defend it!" and "attack!".

It might be what you are watching on TV :O

And to those who may read this and are already fuming, this is about you. Calm down. Possibly seek help, because this isn't normal behavior.

Raiyan 1.0:

Magog1:
Tell us jim,
would you be happy if the main lead was hideos rotting zombie woman with zero sex appeal?

Are you asking for ugly women in anti hero roles for the sense of diversity?

Sounds neat. I'd be curious about the game.. question is would i rent it let alone buy it?

I wanna give that question to everyone at the forum honestly.

If it's a good game, why not?

Some of us don't buy things on the sex appeal of the cover girl, y'know.

I know.

But the likely hood of someone getting that right vs "it was a noble idea.. " and we'll spend the next 10-20 pages of a forum lamenting on what might been.

Psykoma:

I'm sorry, but the "the women have to look like for what they do in the game to be realistically feasible" does not work.

I guarantee you, a woman who could 'realistically' do all that Lara Croft does has 0 boob - all muscle (thighs and butt for that matter as well). A real life woman who can do what Lara Croft does has the same body as Kratos. Well, minus the willy.

Actually I disagree with that. Have you seen pictures of world class climbers or gymnasts? I haven't played the game but from what I have seen of the gameplay those would probably be the closest to what she does. To be that athletic and acrobatic you have to have a high strength to weight ratio, and as such having bulky muscles would be if anything detrimental. The top female climber from the last bouldering world cup was Anna Stohr, and her body is not at all like Kratos's:

And I'm not going to show pictures of any of the people I know, but that body type is completely typical of the strongest female climbers in the world. I only know a single strong female climber who puts on large muscles. From what I've seen of olympic gymnasts it's pretty much the same with them.

Sorry if this was already mentioned, I haven't read the couple pages after your post yet.

OT: Good points all around in this video, they might not all be new arguments, but I'll take what I can get if it'll stop people from citing Kratos as an example of male characters being sexualized

Look at it this way.. ever read the web comic lfg which is a spin on wow?

The artist draws a female troll like a sex symbol.
A troll.

The artist draws a troll as sexy. http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v11/DevinAustra/LFG/motivation2.jpg least for a troll. Now that's out of a web comic... a place where writers and artists tend to show more balls than typically game designers.

Now did he do this because he wanted to...
or simply put the character would appeal more that way.

it does.
Deal with it.

http://fc02.deviantart.net/fs70/i/2011/257/0/7/my_lfg_wallpaper_by_emergencyuseonly-d49ua8g.jpg

and that draws me to my next point..
to fans take popular female characters and draw them as ugly on deviant art?

THEY DON'T? really? you mean they take overly objectified characters and try and make them more sexy..

Do tell.

When I see these kind of threads, I'm happy that I live in Ukraine where none of normal adequate humans are giving a damn about not only objectifying women as equal, but objectifying anything at all.

You see: when you live in a almost-ideal world, people are getting some faggy shit in their heads, instead of being productive members of society.

Stop giving a damn about some stupid stuff and make the your own things: make indie games, or a comic, or a film, or a zoethrope where your Main H is whatever the hell you want, instead of whining

Gorrath:
Sorry, but I have to disagree. There is absolutely research that indicates that how tall and good looking men are directly correlates to how much they earn and what positions they are hired/promoted to.

Actually there's evidence that tall men get paid more and are promoted more often than short men. Political parties are also more likely to chose the taller candidate to run for president.

So Invader Zim's leaders being the tallest isn't too far from how politics works on planet earth.

It I want to buy these games it's my choice and you have no right to tell me what to buy with my money.

Well we can say whatever we want, but yeah if you like it you should totally buy it, our moaning shouldn't stop you if you don't agree with our opinions.

But at the same time we will criticize the hell out of its flaws, possibly convincing others to not buy it, question what they want out of their games, and perhaps even question whether their attitudes towards these issues alienate other gamers from games that they could enjoy just as much as we do, if certain aspects were done better.

uanime5:

Gorrath:
Sorry, but I have to disagree. There is absolutely research that indicates that how tall and good looking men are directly correlates to how much they earn and what positions they are hired/promoted to.

Actually there's evidence that tall men get paid more and are promoted more often than short men. Political parties are also more likely to chose the taller candidate to run for president.

So Invader Zim's leaders being the tallest isn't too far from how politics works on planet earth.

Indeed, that's exactly what I was saying. I was responding to someone who said that women have to deal with their looks determining tehir pay grade in the real world, and seemed to be suggesting men didn't face this problem. There is research that indicates that men do indeed earn more if they are tall/handsome.

Magog1:

Raiyan 1.0:

Magog1:
Tell us jim,
would you be happy if the main lead was hideos rotting zombie woman with zero sex appeal?

Are you asking for ugly women in anti hero roles for the sense of diversity?

Sounds neat. I'd be curious about the game.. question is would i rent it let alone buy it?

I wanna give that question to everyone at the forum honestly.

If it's a good game, why not?

Some of us don't buy things on the sex appeal of the cover girl, y'know.

I know.

But the likely hood of someone getting that right vs "it was a noble idea.. " and we'll spend the next 10-20 pages of a forum lamenting on what might been.

Why is it so tough to digest that a game might have a female character that isn't conventionally beautifully? Would it really hurt the industry if we had female characters as diverse male ones? On one side we have designs as diverse as Solid Snake at an advanced age, Mario, the entire cast of Team Fortress, Kratos, all those brute and effeminate and hulking characters from fighting games... and on the other end we have just that same slender, athletic, beautiful female build.

Expand your horizons, man.

Antigonius:
When I see these kind of threads, I'm happy that I live in Ukraine where none of normal adequate humans are giving a damn about not only objectifying women as equal, but objectifying anything at all.

You see: when you live in a almost-ideal world, people are getting some faggy shit in their heads, instead of being productive members of society.

Stop giving a damn about some stupid stuff and make the your own things: make indie games, or a comic, or a film, or a zoethrope where your Main H is whatever the hell you want, instead of whining

When you can stop throwing words around like "faggy shit", come have a civil conversation.

Raiyan 1.0:

Why is it so tough to digest that a game might have a female character that isn't conventionally beautifully? Would it really hurt the industry if we had female characters as diverse male ones? On one side we have designs as diverse as Solid Snake at an advanced age, Mario, the entire cast of Team Fortress, Kratos, all those brute and effeminate and hulking characters from fighting games... and on the other end we have just that same slender, athletic, beautiful female build.

Expand your horizons, man.

Expand my horizons.... sir

I'm not telling you "NO it shouldn't be done!"
I'm telling you in all likely hood why it isn't done.

I can be open minded till the anthro morphic, multi cultural cows come home.

It's not going to change things.
We as a forum could speak at one unified voice,

we'd still be spinning our wheels.

Raiyan 1.0:
Why is it so tough to digest that a game might have a female character that isn't conventionally beautifully? Would it really hurt the industry if we had female characters as diverse male ones?

It wouldn't hurt the industry but it would hurt game sales. Men and women simple don't like ugly women.

On one side we have designs as diverse as Solid Snake at an advanced age, Mario, the entire cast of Team Fortress, Kratos, all those brute and effeminate and hulking characters from fighting games... and on the other end we have just that same slender, athletic, beautiful female build.

Go to Deviant Art, find someone who is a girl, and look at the images of girls/women they draw. Then repeat about a 100 times to ensure that you have a balanced picture of how women like to portray women. If the majority of the character drawn by women have the same slender, athletic, beautiful female build then it's clear that women don't want diversity; they want beautiful women.

Jimothy Sterling:
Objectification And... Men?

Thank you Jim! And thank the gods for you, as always.

Now, when people use that awful argument, rather than needing to response, I can link to your video and say "What Jim Said".

It is incredibly frustrating when people claim that men are "objectified" in video games. The people who say that clearly proving that most people (or at least the people who say it) don't know what the word "objectify" actually means.

Jimothy Sterling:

A common argument in the ongoing debate over gender and videogames is that women and men both are equally objectified. Is that really true?

I used to make the argument you're taking apart in the video.

I like this video- I thought it was really well done and the issue well handled. I actually did the whole "Aaaaah, I get it now," thing when you said that "Men aren't objectified, they're idealised."

Could it be the disturbing case that both sexes are indeed idealised equally, but that the ideal woman in popular culture is an object?

Redd the Sock:
The industry won't change for internet whining so much as sales, so we might need to hold our nose and buy multiple copies of Remember Me. (and I truly dread this discussion if that game flops)

Thank you for summing up the solution to this whole shitstorm being caused by a tiny minority on the internet.

As much as people have the right to an opinion and the right to criticize, it seems futile to try and convince them that the beauty industry (specifically skin creams, hair products and make-up) is 90% driven by female consumers...why is it so? Because it's simply something women desire on a vastly bigger scale than males. If certain males have a problem with that and want more products and advertisements to cater for them then they need to start buying a LOT of beauty products en-masse and shift the entire market with the power of their wallets - this should've already happened a long time ago, but it hasn't, and there is a reason why.
Oh replace "beauty products" with "AAA games" btw :P

Bara_no_Hime:
Now, when people use that awful argument, rather than needing to response, I can link to your video and say "What Jim Said".

It is incredibly frustrating when people claim that men are "objectified" in video games. The people who say that clearly proving that most people (or at least the people who say it) don't know what the word "objectify" actually means.

You've been around these forums for a lot longer and probably seen some pretty stupid people. In all my tours of more recent threads about these issues I haven't personally come across a single person who genuinely tried to use that argument as defense...at least not with the intent of being taken seriously.

I feel Jim made this video to respond to a group of people who are about as rare as virgins in maternity wards, but even worse that he's responding to a group of people who could be classified as retarded. I mean I've seen people use "but I like boobs" as a defense, lets see Jim make another video revolving entirely around those 4 words -_-

Joseph Cortinas:
Men can be idealized without being objectified while women can not? hmmm... not sure if I totally agree with you jim. simply because I'd be willing to bet that if you asked 100 women to describe a character they would aspire to be like, 99.9999% of the time they'll mention beauty, sexiness, ect. in addition to all those "Non offensive" traits that people love like smarts and kindness.

If the fact that most women aspire to be beautiful and sexy in addition to whatever else they aspire to is a bad thing, it's not really something the gaming community can fix, as it doesn't stem soley from us. We need to take it up with the society at large.

People too often automatically mix sexual desirability with objectification. a lotta times the two coincide, but not always. at least not in the way most people seem to suggest, with sex crazed men lusting after some poor, helpless, innocent females who just wanna be left alone and curse their own beauty every day for this very reason.

Yes sexual objectification is a thing, yes it needs to be discussed, but the root of this problem stems from somewhere far deeper inside the human race than our little gamers club can hope to tackle all by ourselves.

Also I disagree with the idea that to say "Maybe this isn't as big an issue as everyone thinks?" is the same as saying "this isn't worth being talked about" discussion is always good, but people DO like to blow things out of proportion, because if you feel your point of view is under-discussed then that's a good strategy to give it some exposure. so while we should definitely NOT try to stop this discussion or say it isn't important, we should probably also not OVERSTATE it's importance, as if stuff like this is "killing gaming" or anything else overly dramatic. because that kinda over dramatization is what causes the discussion to devolve into flame wars and people attacking each other like was mentioned in a previous episode of the Jimquisition.

One step at a time people, the issue is still an issue, and it's still important, even if you don't attack every opposing view with the force of a freaking hurricane. You lose focus of the real heart of the matter when you blow shit up like that.

Thank god for Jim.

Amen.

Men can be idealized without being objectified while women can not? hmmm... not sure if I totally agree with you jim. simply because I'd be willing to bet that if you asked 100 women to describe a character they would aspire to be like, 99.9999% of the time they'll mention beauty, sexiness, ect. in addition to all those "Non offensive" traits that people love like smarts and kindness.

If the fact that most women aspire to be beautiful and sexy in addition to whatever else they aspire to is a bad thing, it's not really something the gaming community can fix, as it doesn't stem soley from us. We need to take it up with the society at large.

People too often automatically mix sexual desirability with objectification. a lotta times the two coincide, but not always. at least not in the way most people seem to suggest, with sex crazed men lusting after some poor, helpless, innocent females who just wanna be left alone and curse their own beauty every day for this very reason.

Yes sexual objectification is a thing, yes it needs to be discussed, but the root of this problem stems from somewhere far deeper inside the human race than our little gamers club can hope to tackle all by ourselves.

Also I disagree with the idea that to say "Maybe this isn't as big an issue as everyone thinks?" is the same as saying "this isn't worth being talked about" discussion is always good, but people DO like to blow things out of proportion, because if you feel your point of view is under-discussed then that's a good strategy to give it some exposure. so while we should definitely NOT try to stop this discussion or say it isn't important, we should probably also not OVERSTATE it's importance, as if stuff like this is "killing gaming" or anything else overly dramatic. because that kinda over dramatization is what causes the discussion to devolve into flame wars and people attacking each other like was mentioned in a previous episode of the Jimquisition.

One step at a time people, the issue is still an issue, and it's still important, even if you don't attack every opposing view with the force of a freaking hurricane. You lose focus of the real heart of the matter when you blow shit up like that.

Thank god for Jim.

Gunjester:

themilo504:
You should do a episode about the way male characters are portrayed in video games.

...He just did. We're portrayed well.

Yup, amoral killing machines. Sorry, good looking, amoral killing machines.

http://www.escapistmagazine.com/articles/view/comics/critical-miss/9852-Uncharted-Drakes-Misdirected-Anger

Legion:

Smilomaniac:

Progress is made through adversity and by people who lead by example. Progress is not made by whining, complaining, bitching or sitting on a high horse claiming that everyone who doesn't side with women and give them what they want(or rather what pathetic excuses of white knighters want) while accusing everyone else of being misogynistic, intolerant, bigoted or whatever else overused words there is for people who barely even exist in the western world.

Exactly.

You know why homosexuality is starting to become accepted in Western society more and more? It's not because gay, lesbian and bisexual people bitched and moaned, and called people homophobes, it's because they led by example and showed people that there is no difference between love between two people of the opposite sex and the same sex beyond the physical. It was done by people determined to show that there was nothing wrong with them, and by being honest and open with themselves.

The suffragettes didn't bitch and moan that the patriarchy was keeping them down, while accusing men of being the problem. They got up, stood up for themselves and actively worked to make a difference. They showed that they were not willing to be treated like second class citizens and worked to improve their lot.

Sitting on forums such as these and complaining isn't helping anybody. It's not raising awareness, and it's not making people change their mind. It's making people roll their eyes that people are acting as though fictional boobs in games are on par with unequal pay in the workplace. That people live in a society where their gender cannot be discriminated against by law are victims because a group of people out to make money are trying to appeal to those who are most likely to give it. That they think they have the right to whatever entertainment that they want, just because they want it.

Don't get me wrong, people are right to want whatever they want, and I completely support the idea that more and better female protagonists in games can only be a good thing. But I am not deluded in thinking that I am entitled to it, nor am I under the belief that I have the right to tell others what they should spend their time and money making, just because it doesn't fit my particular desires when it comes to gaming.

http://youtu.be/XfY_yzw_-yw?t=2m16s

Sawp, MovieBob ^D^

Media/art is simultaneously a reflection and an influence on any given culture. They can represent/reenforce an attitude a society of peoples have, ala a reflection, and they can also influence ideas and perspectives people slowly but surely adapt once it becomes commonplace on such a wide format.

Okay fine, games don't talk about unfair workpay or things like that SPECIFICALLY, but there's still a societal idea that Men > Women and Hot Women With Less Skills >>>>> Not As Attractive Women With More Skills that CULMINATE in issues LIKE what you're talking about. If you want to use the homosexual example, take a look a back a few decades ago and see how gay men and women were portrayed in shows and movies. ESPECIALLY during the AIDs epidemic where they were basically Public Enemy #1, at least in the states. Hell it still goes on to this very day where you can't have two male friends be close to each other without the audience snickering out a bunch of "tee hee gaaay" cracks as if it's still considered "weird" or "funny" to be gay. And lest you go back pre-60's and 70's to see how African Americans were depicted....

The point is this; Games, TV, movies, radio, etc., they affect how people think. Person-to-person ideas vary due to personal experience, but the collective zeitgeist is usually represented in the big 4 mass media mediums, and consciously or unconsciously they effect how we view the world and view each other. Now what we DO with these representations we're presented is on us; we can either just accept how it's going and be quiet, or we can do something to CHANGE that perception and show how that particular zeitgeist was wrong/harmful. And speaking up and speaking out IS doing something. Slapping down the ones that want to keep the wrongness acceptable IS doing something. Showing that WOMEN AS WELL aren't willing to be treated like second class citizens or simple trophies for you to drool over and be undermined IS doing something. Acknowledging the problem works toward dissecting and discussing the problem, and that leads to finding solutions to the problem. That's...how it usually works.

How it DOESN'T work is when you keep telling them to shut up all the time and just accuse them of whining about how the problem doesn't really exist/you should just go elsewhere if you have a problem with it (when the problem permeates in the majority of places, that can't really happen now can it?)

Whether you want to admit it or not, that IS the perception out there (even WITH the laws out there that are supposed to prevent it), and guess what is a reflection of that? Those fictional boobs being thrown in our face, reenforcing the idea that female looks > anything else about them.

This isn't really about changing the media itself....exactly. Because again, media is a reenforcing mirror of us as a people. So the make the media change, WE have to change. The same definition for what was acceptable entertainment and acceptable ways of living in the 40's isn't the same as it is today, so there's no reason why we can't keep on adapting and changing to the times without treating it like some kind of oh-so-bothersome burden.

Just to reiterate one more time: Acknowledging the problem works toward dissecting and discussing the problem, and leads to finding solutions to the problem. That's...how it usually works.

Magog1:
Look at it this way.. ever read the web comic lfg which is a spin on wow?

The artist draws a female troll like a sex symbol.
A troll.

The artist draws a troll as sexy. http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v11/DevinAustra/LFG/motivation2.jpg least for a troll. Now that's out of a web comic... a place where writers and artists tend to show more balls than typically game designers.

Now did he do this because he wanted to...
or simply put the character would appeal more that way.

it does.
Deal with it.

http://fc02.deviantart.net/fs70/i/2011/257/0/7/my_lfg_wallpaper_by_emergencyuseonly-d49ua8g.jpg

and that draws me to my next point..
to fans take popular female characters and draw them as ugly on deviant art?

THEY DON'T? really? you mean they take overly objectified characters and try and make them more sexy..

Do tell.

I'm sorry, but that "troll" is what the whole argument is all about. It's a female character with over exaggerated female proportions. I have not read the comic so I have no idea how much of a personality this character has or how it is portrayed, but going by the look of the character alone, it basically looks like your average vapid eye candy side character, to which the artist added some green skin and pointy ears.

I would much rather use the example of Mileena from Mortal Kombat.
Sure her body looks overly sexualized but behind that veil there is an entirely different creature.

Or maybe I should just point to Recettear, an Item Shop's Tale and end the whole debate.
In that game they manage to create good female characters.

Yes, and I'm very much aware of my avatar and how strange it may look in comparison with this post, so in advance thank you very much for pointing that out.

uanime5:

On one side we have designs as diverse as Solid Snake at an advanced age, Mario, the entire cast of Team Fortress, Kratos, all those brute and effeminate and hulking characters from fighting games... and on the other end we have just that same slender, athletic, beautiful female build.

Go to Deviant Art, find someone who is a girl, and look at the images of girls/women they draw. Then repeat about a 100 times to ensure that you have a balanced picture of how women like to portray women. If the majority of the character drawn by women have the same slender, athletic, beautiful female build then it's clear that women don't want diversity; they want beautiful women.

These women don't exist in a vacuum. They've been conditioned to think like that by the mainstream media. For example, a Japanese youth is more likely to portray an idealized man as effeminate with an emo-hairdo, whereas someone who has been exposed to Western media will portray him as a grizzled 30-something with stubble, etc.

And honestly, my comment wasn't purely out of a concern for women's perspective, but also for my hunger for aesthetic diversity. I mean, doesn't it make you sad that something like Liliana's female Spy design will never be seen in mainstream games?

I'm not, by the way, against objectification. One of my favorite characters of all time was Jeanette from Vampires:Bloodlines - The Masquerade.

I'm really glad this video is a thing. I've kinda wanted to see someone tackle this for a while now, not because I think there's too much discussion on the objectification of women and not enough on that of men (or the lack thereof), but because it's just . . . not a thing we actually talk about so much.

I mean, don't get me wrong. I think the discussion about male gaze and all of the things we do as a society to just kind of . . . generally fuck women (and others) over is very important, and I don't at all want that discussion to go away. I'd just like us to talk about this, too. It's another thing to think about.

Edit:

Raiyan 1.0:
I mean, doesn't it make you sad that something like Liliana's female Spy design will never be seen in mainstream games?

I, for one, would play the hell out of that engineer. Hell, I'd roleplay Rosie the fucking Riveter every damn time I booted it up. That's possibly the coolest thing I've ever seen.

You know what bugs me about this argument? The complete lack of any academic process. It's just a lot of sweeping statements about what games are, without any research to back it up (anecdotes, yes, but the plural of an anecdote is not data), and no acknowledgment of diverse markets.

It is fairly disingenuous to simply state that women represent fifty percent of the gaming audience when the figures show that the distribution of genders across different markets and devices are not equal, and women represent far from an equal share of the owners of the home consoles that games like Gears of War run on (the exception was the Wii, and Nintendo held a presentation boasting that, at forty-something percent, they had a far greater percentage of female users than other consoles).

We know that Marcus Fenix and Nathan Drake were designed to appeal to a heterosexual male audience, but can you honestly sit there and tell me that no one is thinking of women when they design new characters for Kingdom Hearts or Final Fantasy? Do you think the large female fanbase sexually obsessing over those characters happened by accident? No, it was a result of the trend, beginning in the 1990s, of Japanese publishers of 'boys'' media becoming aware of their female audience through surveys and making executive and editorial decisions to appeal to that demographic, often through the inclusion or emphasizing of characters and dynamics that it found sexually appealing. We have director interviews stating that the entire reason games like Sengoku Basara exist are so that a female audience can drool over a variety of hot dudes in impractical armor. These articles always boil down to comparing the men from Gears of War to the women from Dead or Alive (or some equivalent), but that kind of comparison doesn't actually tell you anything because it is drawing a false equivalence between entirely different games with entirely different art styles produced by entirely different cultures. And of course none of our esteemed game journalists would ever have the guts to deal with an otome game in these discussions, despite the fact that several are now available in English.

Also, can we examine the degree to which some of these male characters can be said to be male fantasies? I'll give you characters like old Snake (who still has the best ass in gaming), but, given the choice, how many guys actually want to look like something like the dwarf from Dragon's Crown? Look on something like Second Life, that allows people to create their own ideal appearances. Do you see any men choosing to look like that? (You will, by the way, see a lot of actual, honest to goodness women paying additional money for enormous breasts; the item in question is designed and sold by yet another genuine female.)

That attempt to define objectification made me cringe. No mention of subjectivity? No attempt to include anything but a narrow segment of AAA action titles? I, for one, would like to have a serious discussion of the extent to which a playable character can lack subjectivity, regardless of their traits, but I doubt any of the people paid to write about games would even know where to start.

Honestly, this video is some of the most intellectually lazy cherry-picking I've ever seen. I'm disappointed, Jim; I had come to expect better from you.

I like how you brag even more after bringing up how you were criticized for it. XD

It would be cool with variety in general, for both male and female characters. I find the majority of male characters bland and boring, while the females are more fun to play, even if that's sometimes just because they're nice to look at.

In video games, both are equally objectified in the sense male and female game characters are objects that do what we want for our entertainment and fantasies, whatever they may be because it's fictional escapism.

Women are pretty and nice to look at, and men are fodder for the player to wade through with any given weapon weilded by a perfect looking protagonist. Men are not evil for enjoying sexualized fictional characters, nor are we evil for enjoying laying waste to thousands of enemies that want to stop our character.

Now please, no more forced gender debates!

image

MaxwellMouse:
Monxeroth, it is not everyone has seen all internet videos before. Even if it is a covered topic, that does not make it any less valid or relevant. I see people saying things like this all the time, as recent as the whole Dragon`s Crown issue.

A fair point.
As I said before, these things get repeated because they are still problems that are relevant, and the points are repeated so they aren't forgotten.

Also, as you said, not everyone on the internet has seen everything on the internet. Plus, we have new people coming to this site alone all the time.

uanime5:

The Dubya:
[quote]It's stagnant progressive crap coming from lazy greedy individuals that want to do nothing but swindle you out of the cash in your pocket.

It I want to buy these games it's my choice and you have no right to tell me what to buy with my money.

From this moment forward, I will model all video game characters as 75-year-old female bodybuilders, just to ruin your fun. Even the male ones, and there's nothing you can do to stop me. I have convinced all other industry artists I know to do the same (way more than 15+). The plan has been set in motion. Watch out, I'm coming for your fun.

I was hoping this episode would be on the Wii U and how third-party developers aren't supporting it.

Isn't it kind of funny that I so seldom hear a female voice address these issues ?
Another thing that confuses me is how an industry has survived publishing "vile sexism" to women for so long and yet they still represent half the gaming audience.

I think people should stop adding casual gaming audiences to the AAA branch of gaming.
Even these forums being some of the most moderated and female friendly forums you can find only has an active female population of ~10%.
Why would a publisher cater to that 10% and not the 90%, you know where all the money is.
I'm sure that if they broke down the AAA numbers they'll find the same proportions.

It's fucking evil to actively troll the gaming community by making it female friendly when only 10% of the people who buy AAA games are women.
Your mom doesn't want to play call of duty, so why make it more to her liking ?

This whole sexism in video games BS is just a bunch of white knighting on behalf of an apathetic demographic.
Publishers want to make money and teenage males are where that money is being made.
With self publishing there really isn't an excuse for women not just making their own games but the ugly truth is that women like the same games men like.
Making a female soldier adds nothing to games like Call of Duty.

So in closing, check your privilege, the only people crying about this shit are a bunch of highbrow ivory tower white feminists men.

The intro and outro gave me a good laugh XD Still funny when peeps don't get its a skit.

Good points. Gj on this one Jim.

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