Jimquisition: Xbox One and the Death of Ownership

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iniudan:

Akalabeth:

Hey Jim you ever heard of Valve?

The different is that Valve doesn't have the monopole of the platform they are on, they actually got competition, even if they by far the top dog, so they actually have to offer a good service to keep ahead of the competition.

Yes because Valve didn't CREATE the PC so of course they don't have a monopoly.
But any PC gamer who wants to play recent releases pretty much needs Steam on their system.

The point is this shit is all old news. The PC gamers have been eating it and liking it for years. So why when microsoft does it are they suddenly the devil?

Microsoft CAN and WILL get away with this, because the PC Gamers have proven that they don't give a shit. They'll take the DRM and so will the console gamers.

Cheeseman Muncher:

Valve is but one choice out of many. If you want an Xbox One, there's only Microsoft's way. No alternative.

Also, Steam offline mode only needs a monthly check-up and they seem to get the fact that digital games should be cheaper than a disc based copy. Good luck hoping for MS to realise that.

You're talking minor details that don't matter. Monthly check-up instead of daily? What's the difference.

As I said above, PC Gamers have proven that gamers will take this style of DRM and still be happy.
If Steam had flopped, then Xbox One wouldn't have this shit today. So thank you, Steam supporters, for "ruining" the console experience.

AWAR:

First of all, any kind of exposure from your part can be considered promotion. I don't follow you outside of the escapist, but you do seem to have quite a sizable audience that watches your reviews.
The reason I called you a hypocrite, and yes I'm aware of its meaning, is because for the past few weeks all you rave about is how bad Microsoft, EA, Sony et al are screwing us gamers. The way I see it, since you are a game reviewer after all and not a consumer advocate, is that you seem to bite the same hand that feeds you, making a show out of it and being proud of it. In my opinion the best kind of defense against these terrible business practices is ignoring them and moving on to different, less terrible things. Provided of course you want them to stop.
But maybe you are right, I should wait until it's out and you have your way with it before criticizing you. Some negative exposure might do the trick. Maybe.

First, exposure doesn't equal promotion, except in a very general sense of making people aware that it exists. No legitimate reviewer in any field refuses to review something because they don't want to give it any "promotion".

Second, why can't he be both a game reviewer AND a consumer advocate? I don't see how those two are mutually exclusive. There are many journalists out there that do objective journalism and write editorials as well. There's no reason that a person can't editorialize on the failings and shortcomings of a company or industry while at the same time reviewing things about that company or industry. Where you should have the problem isn't in trying to do both, it's if that person obviously lets their personal feelings about the company's actions affect the reviews of their product and doesn't give an honest critique. If Jim does that, then you have every right to call him out.

And lastly, ignoring something doesn't make it go away, especially when that something is one of the most powerful and dominant companies in their field. In that case, silence implies consent more often than it does disagreement. And people will just go to other places for their content. Which is more effective - covering it and having an audience for your criticisms of it, or ignoring it and having people get their info somewhere else?

Akalabeth:

The point is this shit is all old news. The PC gamers have been eating it and liking it for years. So why when microsoft does it are they suddenly the devil?

Microsoft CAN and WILL get away with this, because the PC Gamers have proven that they don't give a shit. They'll take the DRM and so will the console gamers.

...

You're talking minor details that don't matter. Monthly check-up instead of daily? What's the difference.

As I said above, PC Gamers have proven that gamers will take this style of DRM and still be happy.
If Steam had flopped, then Xbox One wouldn't have this shit today. So thank you, Steam supporters, for "ruining" the console experience.

The details aren't minor and they do matter. As is usually the case, the devil is in the details.

Saying that Steam is like what MS is proposing is like saying a filet mignon is like a hamburger. After all, they're both food made from cows, so everything else is a minor detail, right? But those "minor" details make all of the difference to food lovers.

The same is true here. Among those "minor" details:

- Monthly vs daily: Big detail to those with extended internet outages, taking your machine on trips where there's no internet, dial-up users, etc. Any of those can be done much more easily with monthly checks than with daily.

- Cost: There's a trade-off with digital ownership for the DRM and lack of used media in cost. Games have much bigger discounts and more rapid price reductions on PC than on consoles. For example, I can, right now, go pre-order a PC copy of Batman: Arkham Origins for $37 at GMG. Find me one place where I can do that for Xbox or PS. There's no reason to assume right now that this will change with this upcoming console generation.

- Backwards compatibility and availability: Again, a trade-off for the limitations. Steam provides MUCH more than just current games. Xbox One won't.

The bottom line is, saying that the differences in things like "DRM" are minor and don't matter is just hogwash, lazy and usually self-serving. Everything, including the details and trade-offs provided, has to be taken into consideration.

Steam is to the PC, what Xbox1 is to the consoles.
You can say it's not quite as bad as the new Xbox but it still does bad.

The incredible smugness during that final pun was obviously just too much to hide. Well done.

People Like Jim Sterling and Yahtzee should stick to their guns and not support Xbox One in the next generation.
Only do shows and reviews for the WiiU and possibly the PS4 (if they feel that console is acceptable enough in its practices).

ThinkerT:

The same is true here. Among those "minor" details:

- Monthly vs daily: Big detail to those with extended internet outages, taking your machine on trips where there's no internet, dial-up users, etc. Any of those can be done much more easily with monthly checks than with daily.

I'm sorry but how many people take their xbox on vacation? We have Ipads and portable devices for that.
How many people are still on dialup?

Do people on dialup benefit from downloading 5-10% of the game they bought in a store? (as is with Valve Games)

You're scrambling for reasons.

ThinkerT:

- Cost: There's a trade-off with digital ownership for the DRM and lack of used media in cost. Games have much bigger discounts and more rapid price reductions on PC than on consoles. For example, I can, right now, go pre-order a PC copy of Batman: Arkham Origins for $37 at GMG. Find me one place where I can do that for Xbox or PS. There's no reason to assume right now that this will change with this upcoming console generation.

Name me one game you can buy on the Xbox One right now?
You can't.

You're comparing the prices of a current gen system, a system which allows for USED games (as opposed to steam) to a next gen system that isn't even out yet.

ThinkerT:

- Backwards compatibility and availability: Again, a trade-off for the limitations. Steam provides MUCH more than just current games. Xbox One won't.

I don't care about backwards compatibility. I don't have time to play all the new games I want to play let alone replaying old games that came out years ago. I'd rather pay 500 instead of 600 for a console if it means I wont get to replay games that I've already played.

ThinkerT:

The bottom line is, saying that the differences in things like "DRM" are minor and don't matter is just hogwash, lazy and usually self-serving. Everything, including the details and trade-offs provided, has to be taken into consideration.

When you base your opinion on fact rather than speculation you can let me know.

AWAR:

Jimothy Sterling:
-snip

First of all, any kind of exposure from your part can be considered promotion. I don't follow you outside of the escapist, but you do seem to have quite a sizable audience that watches your reviews.
The reason I called you a hypocrite, and yes I'm aware of its meaning, is because for the past few weeks all you rave about is how bad Microsoft, EA, Sony et al are screwing us gamers. The way I see it, since you are a game reviewer after all and not a consumer advocate, is that you seem to bite the same hand that feeds you, making a show out of it and being proud of it. In my opinion the best kind of defense against these terrible business practices is ignoring them and moving on to different, less terrible things. Provided of course you want them to stop.
But maybe you are right, I should wait until it's out and you have your way with it before criticizing you. Some negative exposure might do the trick. Maybe. I really doubt it though.

But surely the fact I *do* bite the hand that feeds me is better than me playing nice with it to get review copies. Fact is, I say shit like this, at the risk of my other job, and yes I do so proudly. I don't see it as a conflict. In fact, one episode explicitly is about loving games as art and hating them as a business. Jimquisition attacks the business, as a reviewer I discuss the art. And in games where business impacts the art, I let rip.

Frankly, my not covering the Xbox One could ONLY help Microsoft, giving it one less potentially bad review. People call for people like me to shut up and say nothing, but that's not helping ANYone.

As you said, you only watch Jimquisition, so you probably aren't qualified to tell me what I'm a hypocrite on as far as anything else I do goes. You're really assuming the worst and using it as a strawman which, in all fairness, is a logical fallacy.

Jimothy Sterling:

AWAR:

Jimothy Sterling:
-snip

First of all, any kind of exposure from your part can be considered promotion. I don't follow you outside of the escapist, but you do seem to have quite a sizable audience that watches your reviews.
The reason I called you a hypocrite, and yes I'm aware of its meaning, is because for the past few weeks all you rave about is how bad Microsoft, EA, Sony et al are screwing us gamers. The way I see it, since you are a game reviewer after all and not a consumer advocate, is that you seem to bite the same hand that feeds you, making a show out of it and being proud of it. In my opinion the best kind of defense against these terrible business practices is ignoring them and moving on to different, less terrible things. Provided of course you want them to stop.
But maybe you are right, I should wait until it's out and you have your way with it before criticizing you. Some negative exposure might do the trick. Maybe. I really doubt it though.

But surely the fact I *do* bite the hand that feeds me is better than me playing nice with it to get review copies. Fact is, I say shit like this, at the risk of my other job, and yes I do so proudly. I don't see it as a conflict. In fact, one episode explicitly is about loving games as art and hating them as a business. Jimquisition attacks the business, as a reviewer I discuss the art. And in games where business impacts the art, I let rip.

Frankly, my not covering the Xbox One could ONLY help Microsoft, giving it one less potentially bad review. People call for people like me to shut up and say nothing, but that's not helping ANYone.

As you said, you only watch Jimquisition, so you probably aren't qualified to tell me what I'm a hypocrite on as far as anything else I do goes. You're really assuming the worst and using it as a strawman which, in all fairness, is a logical fallacy.

Sorry if I am going off rails here, but why don't you talk more about the WiiU. Isn't it super consumer friendly on all those issues that we are debating?

Alexandre Lemke:

Jimothy Sterling:

AWAR:

First of all, any kind of exposure from your part can be considered promotion. I don't follow you outside of the escapist, but you do seem to have quite a sizable audience that watches your reviews.
The reason I called you a hypocrite, and yes I'm aware of its meaning, is because for the past few weeks all you rave about is how bad Microsoft, EA, Sony et al are screwing us gamers. The way I see it, since you are a game reviewer after all and not a consumer advocate, is that you seem to bite the same hand that feeds you, making a show out of it and being proud of it. In my opinion the best kind of defense against these terrible business practices is ignoring them and moving on to different, less terrible things. Provided of course you want them to stop.
But maybe you are right, I should wait until it's out and you have your way with it before criticizing you. Some negative exposure might do the trick. Maybe. I really doubt it though.

But surely the fact I *do* bite the hand that feeds me is better than me playing nice with it to get review copies. Fact is, I say shit like this, at the risk of my other job, and yes I do so proudly. I don't see it as a conflict. In fact, one episode explicitly is about loving games as art and hating them as a business. Jimquisition attacks the business, as a reviewer I discuss the art. And in games where business impacts the art, I let rip.

Frankly, my not covering the Xbox One could ONLY help Microsoft, giving it one less potentially bad review. People call for people like me to shut up and say nothing, but that's not helping ANYone.

As you said, you only watch Jimquisition, so you probably aren't qualified to tell me what I'm a hypocrite on as far as anything else I do goes. You're really assuming the worst and using it as a strawman which, in all fairness, is a logical fallacy.

Sorry if I am going off rails here, but why don't you talk more about the WiiU. Isn't it super consumer friendly on all those issues that we are debating?

Because the Wii U's position in the market is weird right now. I'm waiting to see where it positions itself when the dust has settled. Maybe it'll be clear as soon as the end of this week.

What's the deal with the piano player with creepy robotic hands? And when is Jim going to get rid of that horrible shiny backdrop?

Aardvaarkman:
What's the deal with the piano player with creepy robotic hands?

It's from a trailer (or the intro?) of Deus Ex: Human Revolution - later on there was a guy with a metallic hand tossing a ball at a kid, it's from the same in-game commercial. It's from a company supplying cybernetic prosthetics.

Anyway, as far as I see I'm the only one to mention this but Xbox One is not going to need 1.5 megabytes per second (MB/s) but 1.5 megabits (Mbps), which is equal to 192 kilobytes per second (8 bit = 1 byte). Sorry, compsci here, I was obliged to mention it. Other than that, thank god for Jim! :)

AWAR:

Jimothy Sterling:
-snip

First of all, any kind of exposure from your part can be considered promotion. I don't follow you outside of the escapist, but you do seem to have quite a sizable audience that watches your reviews.
The reason I called you a hypocrite, and yes I'm aware of its meaning, is because for the past few weeks all you rave about is how bad Microsoft, EA, Sony et al are screwing us gamers. The way I see it, since you are a game reviewer after all and not a consumer advocate, is that you seem to bite the same hand that feeds you, making a show out of it and being proud of it. In my opinion the best kind of defense against these terrible business practices is ignoring them and moving on to different, less terrible things. Provided of course you want them to stop.
But maybe you are right, I should wait until it's out and you have your way with it before criticizing you. Some negative exposure might do the trick. Maybe. I really doubt it though.

I am sorry but you are either willfully misrepresenting facts here to try and make a point, which is what I strongly suspect, or you are just misunderstanding what it means to be a critic.

Are you seriously implying that if Jim reviews the Xbone he is "promoting it"? What if he gives it a bad review and tears it to shreds? Is he still "promoting it"? A critic's job is to dissect what ever he is a critic of. To point out its good points and bad points. To try and explain what it means in the context of the time it is released and what other products it is released with.

You are trying to make the point that if Roger Ebert talks about how much he hates B movie slashers and then reviews a B movie slasher he is a hypocrite, no matter what kind of review he gives it. That is frankly asinine. I don't mean to be insulting, but it is clearly just not true.

But I think you know that and I think you are just a big fan of Microsoft, you are excited about the Xbox One, you feel threatened by all the negative press and so you are lashing out.

ThinkerT:

Most of the responses I got have a touch of fatalism I believe. What is really scary to me is not the ridiculous always online DRM spying bullshit, but the assumption that we the gamers are all going to buy Microsoft's trinkets anyhow.
Let's also never forget that we are talking about video games here. I really do believe in consumer rights but I know that the consumer speaks better with his wallet than with his mouth.
My main gripe on this issue is that I really can't see the use of whining about these stuff if it's already predetermined that we are going to deal with it anyhow, whether we like it or not. There is a choice and Microsoft said it themselves, rather cynically but they did anyway, that the kinect can be turned off. In other words, yes there are privacy and consumer issues but no one is forcing you to buy the thing and deal with all the crap in the first place!
And if people actually do buy the Xbone in the end on their own volition, doesn't that entail that they willingly trade off some of their privacy for the sake of the entertainment provided by the console?

"Oh well...there's always the Wii U?"

No Jim, there's always the PC :)

Yuuki:
"Oh well...there's always the Wii U?"

No Jim, there's always the PC :)

A PC running Microsoft Windows, I presume?

One of the weirdest things about these thread is the number of people who essentially say: "Screw Microsoft, I'm going back to a Windows PC!"

Note, I am not accusing you in particular of this hypocrisy, just observing a general trend. If Microsoft is willing to do this on the Xbone, what's to stop them doing it on Windows? Another interesting thing is the na´vety of people saying that the Xbone won't sell, just because of some negative reviews. Back in reality, people will buy this in droves. Never under-esitmate the power of a teenager to convince their parents to buy new toys. I mean, what are they going to do once the Xbone and PS4 are the standard models for sale? Buy an old PS3 or Xbox 360? Not going to happen.

If people are actually serious about reducing Microsoft and other companies' strongholds, that requires serious commitment - like learning Linux and swearing off all non-open-source software. I really don't think that's likely to occur on a large enough scale to have any significant impact.

I can play my NES from 1986 TODAY.

10 years from now, when the Xbox One's servers go down, and the games can no longer "authenticate" online, what happens to my game library? It all becomes useless.

Because I never "owned" them. I merely was granted "permission" to play them. And they can deny that position when it suits them.

Sorry, but I like OWNING the product I buy. I can still play my original Mario and Zelda games on the original hardware without asking daddy Nintendo for permission. Microsoft can screw off if they think they can tell the consumer how, when, and where they'll be "allowed" to play their games.

Jimothy Sterling:

Alexandre Lemke:

Jimothy Sterling:

But surely the fact I *do* bite the hand that feeds me is better than me playing nice with it to get review copies. Fact is, I say shit like this, at the risk of my other job, and yes I do so proudly. I don't see it as a conflict. In fact, one episode explicitly is about loving games as art and hating them as a business. Jimquisition attacks the business, as a reviewer I discuss the art. And in games where business impacts the art, I let rip.

Frankly, my not covering the Xbox One could ONLY help Microsoft, giving it one less potentially bad review. People call for people like me to shut up and say nothing, but that's not helping ANYone.

As you said, you only watch Jimquisition, so you probably aren't qualified to tell me what I'm a hypocrite on as far as anything else I do goes. You're really assuming the worst and using it as a strawman which, in all fairness, is a logical fallacy.

Sorry if I am going off rails here, but why don't you talk more about the WiiU. Isn't it super consumer friendly on all those issues that we are debating?

Because the Wii U's position in the market is weird right now. I'm waiting to see where it positions itself when the dust has settled. Maybe it'll be clear as soon as the end of this week.

Thanks for answering. Hope to see your views soon.

WiiU is my backup plan if Sony screws up. Never going to buy XBox One. PC is always the last resort, of course.

Akalabeth:

I'm sorry but how many people take their xbox on vacation? We have Ipads and portable devices for that.
How many people are still on dialup?

Do people on dialup benefit from downloading 5-10% of the game they bought in a store? (as is with Valve Games)

You're scrambling for reasons.

The only one here scrambling for reasons here is you. Personally, I go to visit my Grandmother (who doesn't have internet) about 5-10 times a year for at least 3-5 days at a time, and I bring at least 1 of my consoles with me. If my 360 or my PS3 shut down after 24 hours I'd be stuck with just my handhelds after the first day, and I don't have anywhere near enough handheld games that I haven't already played to death for that to be feasible, and very few of them are anywhere near as good or last anywhere near as long as console games anyway. That's just me, now think about the people who's jobs or whatever other reason require them to travel ALL THE TIME, if they weren't able to bring their consoles with them they'd probably rarely ever get a chance to play them at all.

Personally, aside from the above I'm hardly going to be effected by this at all, I oppose what Microsoft is doing largely on principle alone, but if it did effect me I'd be even more pissed off. Microsoft may have the law behind them with this, but there are some things you just DO NOT DO, some lines that should never be crossed, some things that are just plain wrong, and the crap that Microsoft is doing with the Xbox One is among those things.

Akalabeth:

Name me one game you can buy on the Xbox One right now?
You can't.

You're comparing the prices of a current gen system, a system which allows for USED games (as opposed to steam) to a next gen system that isn't even out yet.

How it's done now is a pretty good indicator of how it will be done later. If it's cheaper on the PC now it'll probably be cheaper on the PC later. We can't see the future so all we CAN do is guess at the prices, but that doesn't mean doing so is wrong.

Akalabeth:

I don't care about backwards compatibility. I don't have time to play all the new games I want to play let alone replaying old games that came out years ago. I'd rather pay 500 instead of 600 for a console if it means I wont get to replay games that I've already played.

You don't care about backwards compatibility, fine, but there are PLENTY OF PEOPLE WHO DO!!! If you don't care about it you shouldn't be having an opinion on it. That's like someone who's never smoked in their lives telling people who do that it's easy to quit. You have no idea what you're talking about and shouldn't say anything.

Akalabeth:

When you base your opinion on fact rather than speculation you can let me know.

Of course! Why bother actually listening to what Thinker's saying, much less admitting that what he's saying is right when you can just dismiss it out of hand. After all, how can you lose an argument if you just ignore what the other person said and don't ever admit that you're wrong no matter how pathetically obvious it is that you are? [/sarcasm]

Get over yourself and actually consider the other side for once.

immortalfrieza:

Akalabeth:

I'm sorry but how many people take their xbox on vacation? We have Ipads and portable devices for that.
How many people are still on dialup?

Do people on dialup benefit from downloading 5-10% of the game they bought in a store? (as is with Valve Games)

You're scrambling for reasons.

The only one here scrambling for reasons here is you. Personally, I go to visit my Grandmother (who doesn't have internet) about 5-10 times a year for at least 3-5 days at a time, and I bring at least 1 of my consoles with me. If my 360 or my PS3 shut down after 24 hours I'd be stuck with just my handhelds after the first day, and I don't have anywhere near enough handheld games that I haven't already played to death for that to be feasible, and very few of them are anywhere near as good or last anywhere near as long as console games anyway. That's just me, now think about the people who's jobs or whatever other reason require them to travel ALL THE TIME, if they weren't able to bring their consoles with them they'd probably rarely ever get a chance to play them at all.

Anecdotal evidence.
I very much doubt that your experience reflects that of the majority.

And if you're visiting your grandma, you should spend time, you know, visiting her, not playing your video games.

immortalfrieza:

Akalabeth:

Name me one game you can buy on the Xbox One right now?
You can't.

You're comparing the prices of a current gen system, a system which allows for USED games (as opposed to steam) to a next gen system that isn't even out yet.

How it's done now is a pretty good indicator of how it will be done later. If it's cheaper on the PC now it'll probably be cheaper on the PC later. We can't see the future so all we CAN do is guess at the prices, but that doesn't mean doing so is wrong.

When you present theory as fact you're doing it wrong.

immortalfrieza:

Akalabeth:

I don't care about backwards compatibility. I don't have time to play all the new games I want to play let alone replaying old games that came out years ago. I'd rather pay 500 instead of 600 for a console if it means I wont get to replay games that I've already played.

You don't care about backwards compatibility, fine, but there are PLENTY OF PEOPLE WHO DO!!! If you don't care about it you shouldn't be having an opinion on it. That's like someone who's never smoked in their lives telling people who do that it's easy to quit. You have no idea what you're talking about and shouldn't say anything.

So only people who care about backwards compatibility have an opinion? Therefore every opinion on backwards compatibility is in favour of it? Sorry but logic doesn't work that way.

When the Playstation 3 dropped BC mid-generation were people up in arms about it? No the console kept selling, and even more than it did when it first came out. When the 360 didn't make all original games backwards compatible did people get up in arms about it? No they kept buying games. When Nintendo re-released the same game that gamers had already bought 4 times did they buy it a 5 time? You bet they did.

If dropping BC was unprofitable they wouldn't be doing it. Fact is not many people care.

Why is the used games market so allegedly huge? Because people DON'T KEEP THEIR GAMES. They play them. Then they trade them in.

immortalfrieza:

Akalabeth:

When you base your opinion on fact rather than speculation you can let me know.

Of course! Why bother actually listening to what Thinker's saying, much less admitting that what he's saying is right when you can just dismiss it out of hand. After all, how can you lose an argument if you just ignore what the other person said and don't ever admit that you're wrong no matter how pathetically obvious it is that you are? [/sarcasm]

Get over yourself and actually consider the other side for once.

You're not a thinker you're a speculator. You're a doom and gloom reactionary. You forget that Steam of today, as great as people claim it to be, was not that great when it first debuted. You're saying things will be a certain way, when you don't know that as fact.

You want to predict the future based on evidence of the past?

The new Xbox is basically the same DRM as steam, except that it actually allows for some used games, people love Steam, therefore people will love the xbox. They put enough sales on there and people won't complain. Heck Xbox gold is even following PS+ and will be offering free games to people. There's your evidence that things are changing.

Jimothy Sterling:

Alexandre Lemke:

Jimothy Sterling:

But surely the fact I *do* bite the hand that feeds me is better than me playing nice with it to get review copies. Fact is, I say shit like this, at the risk of my other job, and yes I do so proudly. I don't see it as a conflict. In fact, one episode explicitly is about loving games as art and hating them as a business. Jimquisition attacks the business, as a reviewer I discuss the art. And in games where business impacts the art, I let rip.

Frankly, my not covering the Xbox One could ONLY help Microsoft, giving it one less potentially bad review. People call for people like me to shut up and say nothing, but that's not helping ANYone.

As you said, you only watch Jimquisition, so you probably aren't qualified to tell me what I'm a hypocrite on as far as anything else I do goes. You're really assuming the worst and using it as a strawman which, in all fairness, is a logical fallacy.

Sorry if I am going off rails here, but why don't you talk more about the WiiU. Isn't it super consumer friendly on all those issues that we are debating?

Because the Wii U's position in the market is weird right now. I'm waiting to see where it positions itself when the dust has settled. Maybe it'll be clear as soon as the end of this week.

My feel is that the only reason the Wii U is in this state is due to it not having this fuck you attitude towards the consumers where the publishers can block used games or make money off of them, and that scares the hell out of me, since i love the way Nintendo treats its fans i am hoping that they can get some more games and love from people

So... you'll refuse to review new xbox games? Refuse to buy the XBox one outright? I see many crying blue murder about this, but reviewers will still buy the console(s) and exclusive titles which equate to free publicity for the manufacturers and publishers. I mean, it's their job.

Aardvaarkman:

Yuuki:
"Oh well...there's always the Wii U?"

No Jim, there's always the PC :)

A PC running Microsoft Windows, I presume?

One of the weirdest things about these thread is the number of people who essentially say: "Screw Microsoft, I'm going back to a Windows PC!"

Note, I am not accusing you in particular of this hypocrisy, just observing a general trend. If Microsoft is willing to do this on the Xbone, what's to stop them doing it on Windows? Another interesting thing is the na´vety of people saying that the Xbone won't sell, just because of some negative reviews. Back in reality, people will buy this in droves. Never under-esitmate the power of a teenager to convince their parents to buy new toys. I mean, what are they going to do once the Xbone and PS4 are the standard models for sale? Buy an old PS3 or Xbox 360? Not going to happen.

If people are actually serious about reducing Microsoft and other companies' strongholds, that requires serious commitment - like learning Linux and swearing off all non-open-source software. I really don't think that's likely to occur on a large enough scale to have any significant impact.

"What's to stop them doing it on Windows". Stop them doing what? Used games haven't worked on PC for a long time, they've been using the CD-key system for over a decade now. Steam & Origin tie the game to your account and that's the end of that. Whoever tries to implement bullshit DRM gets wrecked by high piracy rates (e.g. Ubisoft) or at the least flamed to hell by the internet because PC gaming and the internet community go hand-in-hand.

Consoles offered simple/quick operation and the ability to share/trade games, something which PC's couldn't do. But now consoles are kicking their only advantages in the head - nearly every game has to install itself on the hard-drive and go through lengthy patching/updating processes, loading times have become nothing short of INSANE (it's like console gamers have simply become used to sitting through 1-2 minute loading screens), and now used games are getting hit. With all those advantages getting melted away, there's no reason to just build a solid gaming PC and roll with that.

It's consoles that seem to be going along a crazy unpredictable rollercoaster ride now, while PC's continue to happily keep doing what they've always done - just let you play your damn game, and let you use whatever controller you like, let you re-visit games from almost every era - and do all this with gorgeous sharp visuals & textures to boot.

That's why I said "there's always the PC".

Somewhere down the line, MS will release an Xbone package with a free telescreen.

I don't even know why everyone overreacts to that. Someone advertises a shitty product so i go *shrug* walk past it and buy something nice.
In this console case that "something" will be the PS4 for everyone that wants a console.

Just let them drown in a never ending pile of unsold consoles.

Jim, can I have your babies? That episode was fantastic.

Akalabeth:
Holy Snip...

Right, because your not basing any of your points on opinions at all, and your applying a liberal amount of facts here too right? Right...? I mean, you had evidence to back up that people don't keep their games? I'm just saying anecdotal evidence is better than what you have, which is none. I mean, I keep my games instead of trading them in, so I can replay them. But that's just my experience so it obviously doesn't matter. I mean, your complaints about lack of evidence really is kind of strange when you have hardly any evidence for what you said. Also, what evidence do you have for Steam users not having Dial-Up, because I used Steam with Dial-Up at one point. Sure, downloads were painful, but at least I could play games.

Jimothy Sterling:

AWAR:

Jimothy Sterling:
-snip

First of all, any kind of exposure from your part can be considered promotion. I don't follow you outside of the escapist, but you do seem to have quite a sizable audience that watches your reviews.
The reason I called you a hypocrite, and yes I'm aware of its meaning, is because for the past few weeks all you rave about is how bad Microsoft, EA, Sony et al are screwing us gamers. The way I see it, since you are a game reviewer after all and not a consumer advocate, is that you seem to bite the same hand that feeds you, making a show out of it and being proud of it. In my opinion the best kind of defense against these terrible business practices is ignoring them and moving on to different, less terrible things. Provided of course you want them to stop.
But maybe you are right, I should wait until it's out and you have your way with it before criticizing you. Some negative exposure might do the trick. Maybe. I really doubt it though.

But surely the fact I *do* bite the hand that feeds me is better than me playing nice with it to get review copies. Fact is, I say shit like this, at the risk of my other job, and yes I do so proudly. I don't see it as a conflict. In fact, one episode explicitly is about loving games as art and hating them as a business. Jimquisition attacks the business, as a reviewer I discuss the art. And in games where business impacts the art, I let rip.

Frankly, my not covering the Xbox One could ONLY help Microsoft, giving it one less potentially bad review. People call for people like me to shut up and say nothing, but that's not helping ANYone.

As you said, you only watch Jimquisition, so you probably aren't qualified to tell me what I'm a hypocrite on as far as anything else I do goes. You're really assuming the worst and using it as a strawman which, in all fairness, is a logical fallacy.

All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing.

A bad review will turn off more people from a company and game in general than any amount of awareness brought to it through the review existing. Examples of this can be seen on some of the more recent epic fails from some bad companies (Simcity, Diablo 3, Mass Effect 3 choose your colour ending etc) and a lot of the time they have put people off future products.

At least I know that Jim and Yahtzee have the balls to give something shit when it deserves it even if they are very offensive while doing so and nitpick. As for most other reviewers, well I lost faith in them when they reviewed a lazy half baked cash cow and proclaimed it to the our lord and saviour. Case in point IGN rated the examples above as 70, 95 and 95, all of which have massive fundamental flaws and were outdone by their predecessors in nearly every way possible. Yet they still got...er I think I'm running away with this. Unfortunately it would be very unprofessional for Jim to do a show on his fellow reviewers and companies buying reviews and positive promotion through good reviews.

Point is they're doing more good by giving it a bad review than staying mum.

Lightknight:

canadamus_prime:
In other words idiots, frat boys, and kids.

So then, anyone who plays a game that they enjoy and you don't must be an idiot? Man, I wish I had that world view, it'd make disagreements with people so much simpler. "*gasp* you prefer chocolate to vanilla? You must be an idiot!", "*gasp*, you prefer historical fiction to bibliographies?! You must be an idiot!" If only I could get planetary bodies to also revolve around me then I'd be all set.

To anyone who enjoys COD, and there are a lot of those people, more than the ones that enjoy pretty much any other game (as far as gamers' wallets indicate), please note that it's also sold on the ps4 which is looking to be a promising system.

On the other hand, people who only play COD have to connect to the internet anyways. So this wouldn't be such a problem for them.

That is not what I said. In future please try to take into account the person I'm quoting before quoting me. I really don't care if people like things that I don't. What I was getting at is that people who are willing to take it up the ass (metaphorically speaking) as long as they get spoon fed their favourite franchise(s) are idiots.

Antari:
I really can't wait to start seeing some numbers on how bad this hurts them.

I don't think it will. Forums like this and the users that populate them represent a tiny minority of the gaming public. Most people do not follow developers, publishers, hardware, and similar things. Even E-famous personalities like Jim Sterling and Yahtzee reach a very small number of gamers overall. At the end of the day most people who go out there and buy an X-box will be totally unaware of these kinds of details, and by the time they find out they will already be committed.

To be honest, there is also the issue of the way games have been mainstreamed as well. Right now most gamers are not the savvy, intelligent, fringe people that they used to be. Most gamers are well... the lowest human denominator, the people the geeks and nerds stand out from. The Bros, frat boys, and even lower levels of intellectual humanity, people who were romanced by game companies and came into the hobby in large numbers at a time when things were never any other way, what is being seen here is just a little bit removed from what the gaming industry has already been doing. Most of the people gaming always had their ownership of games compromised, and are used to being nickel and dimed, and put under constant corporate surveillance. What's more rather than looking at what were largely social outcasts doing the gaming (ie nerds and geeks) catering to this mainstream means social pressure now applies and this is heavily exploited which is one of the reasons why social networking has been something forced into gaming and continually being wedged in. Right now plenty of people, even those who otherwise know better, are quite blunt about going to get an X-box because all of their friends will be doing it, and they don't want to be left out of what has become a big part of their social circle (ie getting together to play/talk about "Call Of Duty" or whatever else). Microsoft arguably already won this battle as even among the detractors we're seeing more attitudes about how "Microsoft is going to force me to endure this" and how wrong it is, than people seriously contemplating going without.

I will hopefully be proven wrong, but honestly I do not anticipate a major collapse over this, especially if Sony turns out to be just as bad, and I expect it to... as that will put people into the position of "endure, or don't do console gaming" and honestly, I doubt many people are going to give up the console gaming. It would be awesome if they did, and we saw a new rise of PC gaming, but I have my serious doubts as to that happening.

At any rate, Jim is right about pretty much everything here, not much for me to disagree with, I just don't have enough faith in humanity, or the masses of gamers that we see out there today, for this to end well. If everyone on The Escapist was to not buy an Xbox, I'd imagine the number of lost sales would be pretty much irrevelent to Microsoft, and honestly I'd imagine that even within this community tons of people will buy one.

The irony of Jim's position is that for all his railing against it, he's pretty much a guaranteed sale since his job(s) within the gaming cosm will require him to keep up with the new consoles and their games to some extent, and to use them. Think about this for a second, and then realize exactly how badly Microsoft has us all by our collective wrinklies when even it's most vocal critics among the gaming community are forced into being customers.

Crony Capitalism runs the entire Western civilization, not just the gaming industry. Are people really surprised that the industry is taking this route? Really? The more lucrative and mainstream gaming becomes (and this isn't an argument to keep gaming for 'hardcore' gamers) the more BS they'll peddle to make even more money.

Thanks you Jim for using the Terms Cronies Capitalisms, i think it's important and good we make the difference betwen capitalisms, and cronies capitalisms who want to kill conpetitions

TheSpyIsASpyWDZ:

Akalabeth:
Holy Snip...

Right, because your not basing any of your points on opinions at all, and your applying a liberal amount of facts here too right? Right...? I mean, you had evidence to back up that people don't keep their games? I'm just saying anecdotal evidence is better than what you have, which is none. I mean, I keep my games instead of trading them in, so I can replay them. But that's just my experience so it obviously doesn't matter. I mean, your complaints about lack of evidence really is kind of strange when you have hardly any evidence for what you said. Also, what evidence do you have for Steam users not having Dial-Up, because I used Steam with Dial-Up at one point. Sure, downloads were painful, but at least I could play games.

/End argument. Something like this is about what I was going to say. Akalabeth couldn't be more obviously wrong if he drummed up a committee to come up with the worst forum arguments possible, and yet he keeps arguing.

TheSpyIsASpyWDZ:

Akalabeth:
Holy Snip...

Right, because your not basing any of your points on opinions at all, and your applying a liberal amount of facts here too right? Right...? I mean, you had evidence to back up that people don't keep their games? I'm just saying anecdotal evidence is better than what you have, which is none.

Evidence that people don't keep their games?
HAVE YOU BEEN IN A STORE? Do you not see an ENTIRE WALL devoted to used games? Do you not see bins full of used games? Or entire stores that sell nothing but used games?

Man alive.

TheSpyIsASpyWDZ:

I mean, I keep my games instead of trading them in, so I can replay them. But that's just my experience so it obviously doesn't matter. I mean, your complaints about lack of evidence really is kind of strange when you have hardly any evidence for what you said. Also, what evidence do you have for Steam users not having Dial-Up, because I used Steam with Dial-Up at one point. Sure, downloads were painful, but at least I could play games.

Good for you. Now with the xbox one, you can do EXACTLY the same thing, play your games.

As for your old games, what are you going to throw out your 360? I have a Sega Master System, I don't complain that I can't play those cartridges on my 360. I didn't complain that I couldn't play Atari games on my Master System.

And yes, the EARLY 360s were notably unreliable, the later models are not. The 360 will be around for a long time. And if at some point it happens to die out, then I'm sure some guy is gonna throw together an emulator and you can play them on PC or the popular ones will get rereleased in cheap bundles or whatnot.

beef_razor:
Crony Capitalism runs the entire Western civilization, not just the gaming industry. Are people really surprised that the industry is taking this route? Really? The more lucrative and mainstream gaming becomes (and this isn't an argument to keep gaming for 'hardcore' gamers) the more BS they'll peddle to make even more money.

Not really. When other industries do crap like this they at least TRY to hide the fact that they're screwing their customers all the time, they couldn't get away with being this exploitive AND being this blatant about it, and if it's revealed to the world that they do crap like this, they quickly reverse things or end up dying out. However, the gaming industry not only treats it's customers like nothing more than walking wallets, they flaunt the fact that they do this and yet SOMEHOW get away with it. No other industry could do this and stay afloat, but the gaming industry gets a pass for some reason.

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