The Truth about Little Girls

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Sex influences because sex sells. Period. Men buy sex, we can't help it. My friend often points out that if the majority of men were gay, then MEN would be the ones constantly portrayed sexually in the media. Yes, men and women gamers are about 50:50, it just seems the boys are always willing to PAY more for cheese.

Lampdevil:

I'd like to step back, though, and point out that the writer also mentioned old women! What say you folks to that? :D

Once again, the "old woman" somewhat suffers the same problem as the young girl - vulnerability. When we think about the elderly, we almost ALWAYS don't think of them in a physically demanding activity. Old people don't go jumping across pits and battling monsters to save the world! They offer advice to the up-and-coming generation that's doing it instead. Old people don't pick up assault rifles and go save the world. They sit in their bridges and bunkers and pass out orders.

See a trend there? Elderly in games seem to be more noted for their intelligence and advice rather than their physical attributes. Which doesn't make them likely heroes in game scenarios demanding heavy physical assertion. They make great support characters, but no one seems to want to play a hero that, after he beats the big bad mecha T-Rex and saves the world, goes back to his home to play with his grandkids. Once again, it comes to society's perception of things. The elderly don't go out to fight the wars and save the world - they're not the most fit for the job. They pass their knowledge and lessons learned onto the next generation...who goes out and saves the world.

That said, old people make perfect candidates for roles in which physical strength ISN'T the deciding factor of a game. Who says a fantasy setting game couldn't have an old sorceress/wizard as the main character. You'd have to think more about going into combat, as it's most likely the opponent can run faster and longer than you can. Heck, the game doesn't even have to focus heavily on contact. You could manipulate/control monsters to fight for you, and the meat of the game could be trap-tripping and puzzle solving. Just a thought.

Note - I easily could have went on about psychic chickens, for those interested in that idea, but I don't like to derail topics whenever possible.

McWipp:
Sex influences because sex sells. Period.

That certainly explain why the women in games are hotter than the men, but, what does that have to do with Link being the hero and Zelda being in distress, and not the other way 'round?

Lampdevil:

Rodge:
Also, people seem to think boys won't play games with a girl as the main character. I could go into detail about why this is, but it would be tl;dr and I'm hungry.

Get food and come back! This thread is already waaaaaay deep into tl;dr territory. A little more won't hurt.

Haha, okay. Hopefully this will make sense. I'm not at my best today.

Well, it's like with children's books. A while ago, someone asked me to make a list of my favourite books (yes I read kids' books shut up). Then they asked me to check which of those books were about girls- books with a female protagonist, not just side characters. So I looked, and the answer was 'not many'. And the ones that were were hardly ever about adventure or excitement. Most books written about girls are written specifically for girls, and they're about fairies and horses and makeup, because who wants to bother writing an adventure story that only girls will ever read?

Girls will happily read about boys, but you'll have a hell of a time getting a boy to read about girls. Why is this? We are brought up to think of girls as 'beneath' boys. Now, I'm not calling you all misogynistic pigs, but think about it. A boy is weak, or cries about something? He's girly, and that is bad. See where I'm going with this? Weak = girly. Girly = 'like a girl'. Girls = weak. Why would a tough boy want to read about girls? They're the worst thing a young boy can be compared to, why are they worthy of reading about?

I believe this mindset extends to video games, because they have the same mechanic- when you read or play a game, you see things through your main character. Why would a boy play as a girl? Girls are weak. Women are less than men. They aren't worthy of being a protagonist. (Well, if they can fap to them, maybe. Hot women are okay, because then you can tell yourself that you're playing it for her tits, and that a guy would do all this shit so much better.)

But girls are perfectly happy to read about or play as boys, because this same thinking has been drilled into them. Of course it's always the boys going on adventures, that's what boys do! Girls stay at home and knit, because boys are stronger and smarter and better than them. Girls are either damsels in distress or sex symbols, because that's what boys want to see and they're the important ones. And I'm getting into an off-topic rage so I'm going to stop that line of thought.

My point is, the people who make games (and the people who play them) are a product of society, and I think we need to make changes to the way girls are thought of before we can expect to see any big change in the gaming world. This thread has reinforced my conclusions.

Necrohydra:

When we think about the elderly, we almost ALWAYS don't think of them in a physically demanding activity. Old people don't go jumping across pits and battling monsters to save the world! They offer advice to the up-and-coming generation that's doing it instead.

Ehh, for every Yoda you've got an Obi-Wan chopping arms off. Especially in the martial arts genre, there's always some old guy with a grey beard kicking everyone's ass.

It's more that saving the world is up to young people than it's about not seeing old people in physically demanding activities.

Rodge, You're absolutely right. But power likes to stay in power, and because we were physically stronger when that mattered, it translated into "men are better, so they should be in control" when men could think about it. It's hard to change thousands of years of ingrained culture, but that doesn't mean it shouldn't be changed.

Rodge:

Girls will happily read about boys, but you'll have a hell of a time getting a boy to read about girls. Why is this? We are brought up to think of girls as 'beneath' boys. Now, I'm not calling you all misogynistic pigs, but think about it. A boy is weak, or cries about something? He's girly, and that is bad. See where I'm going with this? Weak = girly. Girly = 'like a girl'. Girls = weak. Why would a tough boy want to read about girls? They're the worst thing a young boy can be compared to, why are they worthy of reading about?

I believe this mindset extends to video games, because they have the same mechanic- when you read or play a game, you see things through your main character. Why would a boy play as a girl? Girls are weak. Women are less than men. They aren't worthy of being a protagonist. (Well, if they can fap to them, maybe. Hot women are okay, because then you can tell yourself that you're playing it for her tits, and that a guy would do all this shit so much better.)

But girls are perfectly happy to read about or play as boys, because this same thinking has been drilled into them. Of course it's always the boys going on adventures, that's what boys do! Girls stay at home and knit, because boys are stronger and smarter and better than them. Girls are either damsels in distress or sex symbols, because that's what boys want to see and they're the important ones. And I'm getting into an off-topic rage so I'm going to stop that line of thought.

Hm. I've thought about that a lot, actually. Because girls and boys are raised so differently at the younger, near tabula rasa age.
Girls are taught to be nice and polite, that boys "Just are that way"(meaning aggressive and mean), and that it's okay to cry.
Boys are taught to be loud and aggressive (indirectly because they don't get attention if they aren't), that hitting girls is wrong or at least MUCH, MUCH more wrong than hitting girls (reinforcing the idea that girls are weaker than boys) and that girls are cute fragile little flowers that should be cherished.

These gender stereotypes are enforced at such a young age, and in such an impulsive way by adults, that it's almost stunning that some people are still surprised when we act on this behavior. (A subgroup of this is that a woman hitting a man is FUNNY or DRAMATIC, a man hitting a woman will mark him for death by the end of the book/game/movie/episode)
To change society, change kindergarten and wait a generation, in short.

First of all, Gor just invokes my desire to hate idiots. I will admit that I have the annoyingly macho desire to save a damsel in distress but I don't feel that women should be constrained to certain roles because of their naughty bits. For those wishing to smack me with my earlier posts, I will restate that is my personal preference not my worldview.

If they make a game with a ball of witty charisma who happens to be female, sign me up for fanboydom. People who mention Lara Croft will be shot.

As for the elderly game concept, I am inspired and will draw up a game discussion idea soon.

Cheeze_Pavilion:

Necrohydra:

When we think about the elderly, we almost ALWAYS don't think of them in a physically demanding activity. Old people don't go jumping across pits and battling monsters to save the world! They offer advice to the up-and-coming generation that's doing it instead.

Ehh, for every Yoda you've got an Obi-Wan chopping arms off. Especially in the martial arts genre, there's always some old guy with a grey beard kicking everyone's ass.

It's more that saving the world is up to young people than it's about not seeing old people in physically demanding activities.

Good point. There always is some crazy 80-year-old martial arts guy in a fighting game, isn't there? I forgot about that. Even then, they are frequently portrayed with students, or having had students. Old people in games are often portrayed as being there to help and support the *hero*.

Just posted the Elder game idea in the Gaming Discussion. Hopefully it meets expectations.

As for the topic at hand, I am curious what exactly kind of game the original article is gunning for. Should I assume something like Myst?

I think what I would like to see, which I hinted at earlier, is a game with a female lead not trying to be a Butch Man Hater like they basically made Lara into. I think it can be done and would love to hear examples if I am missing out on current games where a woman can have a soft side to compliment whatever badass-ery she has going for her.

Ok, finally got to page 4. *whew*

As a male gamer, at the higher end of the standard demographic (38). There are very few PC-based games I can recall playing a young girl character. The only one that immediately comes to mind is Below The Root (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Below_the_Root_(video_game)).

I can't recall to what extent I played as the young girl mind you, but it was a good example of playing a young child, and while you couldn't die, there was a sense of menace, whether you were the boy or the girl. I don't recall offhand if there were any inherent differences in abilities between the two genders. If there wasn't, that's already an improvement (or at least difference) between many games, where playing a girl/woman means lower strength/health/stamina, but more intuition/wisdom/charisma.

I think the option/ability to play as different ages/genders, or even possibly as a red-haired, orange-eyed, leftie can be desirable, but so often we do go with stereotypes/archetypes in games as being more generally recognizable, if not relatable. And of course, they're often sexist/agist as a result.

I would tend to think that as technology/space increases, it should also be possible to recognize and accomodate more diverse characters in games, particularly when in many of them we don't even see (visually) ourselves. The question would be how can we encourage this in developers? We certainly can encourage/suggest during any beta testing we engage in, and I think some of the student created sites/contests should be encouraged (where appropriate) leverage more diversity in the characters/avatars.

On a lighter note, in the psychic chicken world, would the women controlled by these psychic chickens be considered henpecked, a term I don't think I've ever heard applied to a woman before?

Necrohydra:

Good point. There always is some crazy 80-year-old martial arts guy in a fighting game, isn't there? I forgot about that. Even then, they are frequently portrayed with students, or having had students. Old people in games are often portrayed as being there to help and support the *hero*.

Yeah, and the old guy is usually drunk, too!

You're right, though--there is some special connection between youth and the hero's quest, almost to the point of it being illogical: it always seems like somehow the youthful hero is nevertheless the only one capable of defeating the evil one.

It's like Joseph Campbell's _The Hero With A Thousands Faces_: youth is just tied to the ability to adventure in our imaginations for some reason.

The interesting thing is why we've retained that when it comes to boys, but lost that connection when it comes to girls--mythology has figures like Athena and Artemis and Britomart that are capable of action and adventure, yet the cultural canon of video games is pretty devoid of them. Which I think is what the author was hitting on in the original article--what about that time before women are 'domesticated', when they're still free maidens as source material for getting non-sexualized women in our games?

DeathWyrmNexus:
First of all, Gor just invokes my desire to hate idiots. I will admit that I have the annoyingly macho desire to save a damsel in distress but I don't feel that women should be constrained to certain roles because of their naughty bits. For those wishing to smack me with my earlier posts, I will restate that is my personal preference not my worldview.

If they make a game with a ball of witty charisma who happens to be female, sign me up for fanboydom. People who mention Lara Croft will be shot.

There are plenty of women who find a macho desire to save a damsel in distress anything but annoying. The key, like you said, is that be a personal preference for play, and not a worldview.

Also, she's not witty, but the princess from Ico is friggin' *awesome* and easily one of the best characters in all of videogaming. I don't want to give anything away, but make sure you play with a controller with the rumble feature, and don't put it down during the cutscenes. Although she's not the character you play, I think she's exactly the kind of character the original author is gunning for if she were the 'hero' of the story. Again, no spoilers...

Cheeze_Pavilion:

DeathWyrmNexus:
First of all, Gor just invokes my desire to hate idiots. I will admit that I have the annoyingly macho desire to save a damsel in distress but I don't feel that women should be constrained to certain roles because of their naughty bits. For those wishing to smack me with my earlier posts, I will restate that is my personal preference not my worldview.

If they make a game with a ball of witty charisma who happens to be female, sign me up for fanboydom. People who mention Lara Croft will be shot.

There are plenty of women who find a macho desire to save a damsel in distress anything but annoying. The key, like you said, is that be a personal preference for play, and not a worldview.

Also, she's not witty, but the princess from Ico is friggin' *awesome* and easily one of the best characters in all of videogaming. I don't want to give anything away, but make sure you play with a controller with the rumble feature, and don't put it down during the cutscenes. Although she's not the character you play, I think she's exactly the kind of character the original author is gunning for if she were the 'hero' of the story. Again, no spoilers...

I will definitely have to look that up. Thanks for the tip.

DeathWyrmNexus:

I will definitely have to look that up. Thanks for the tip.

'welcome! By the way, the game itself is very, very awesome too.

Cheeze_Pavilion:

DeathWyrmNexus:

I will definitely have to look that up. Thanks for the tip.

'welcome! By the way, the game itself is very, very awesome too.

Which is always a plus and definitely makes life tolerable. On an odd side note, I just remembered being disappointed that Stubbs the Zombie didn't allow for the female lead to be unlocked for multiplayer...

Lampdevil:

The reason, as stated in the article? Sex heavily influences the average portrayal of women in games. Either a woman is blatantly sexy, or subtly sexy, or absolutely goddamned horrifying instead of sexy (and that's why she's so horrifying). Men can be portrayed on-screen in an entirely sexless fashion. Sure, there are plenty of guys with rugged good-looks, and then there's Square-Enix's male casts, and that guy in the Witcher sure seems to be getting an awful lot. But men are often allowed to just... be, without any expectation that they also exist to be oogled.

If the "problem" could be solved by taking sex out of the equation, then the core proposal was to make games with little girls as playable characters. That was the original article's conceit. I think even the article admits that it doesn't entirely pan out, due to issues of vulnerability and deconstruction (that were discussed up-thread, ie. survival horror where you play a young girl would be really scary.) It's still an interesting goal.

I'd like to step back, though, and point out that the writer also mentioned old women! What say you folks to that? :D

I think one of the big problems here is believability. How many people who play action, FPS or RPG's can see a little girl or an old woman running around with an M4 mowing down monsters or random terrorists? Is it believable to have a little girl or old woman take up the sword and save the world from an evil empire? Does it make sense to have a little girl or old woman as a pirate? Although games may not be realistic, part of what makes many imaginary worlds interesting is their believability.

On the other hand, it's much more believable to see a woman in her prime taking up any of these roles. It's not stereotypical (a good thing) but it's much more believable than a little girl or old woman. In some of the alternative type games like Harvest Moon, Animal Crossing or Pheonix Wright: Attorney at Law, things might be different though.

Novan Leon:

Lampdevil:

The reason, as stated in the article? Sex heavily influences the average portrayal of women in games. Either a woman is blatantly sexy, or subtly sexy, or absolutely goddamned horrifying instead of sexy (and that's why she's so horrifying). Men can be portrayed on-screen in an entirely sexless fashion. Sure, there are plenty of guys with rugged good-looks, and then there's Square-Enix's male casts, and that guy in the Witcher sure seems to be getting an awful lot. But men are often allowed to just... be, without any expectation that they also exist to be oogled.

If the "problem" could be solved by taking sex out of the equation, then the core proposal was to make games with little girls as playable characters. That was the original article's conceit. I think even the article admits that it doesn't entirely pan out, due to issues of vulnerability and deconstruction (that were discussed up-thread, ie. survival horror where you play a young girl would be really scary.) It's still an interesting goal.

I'd like to step back, though, and point out that the writer also mentioned old women! What say you folks to that? :D

I think one of the big problems here is believability. How many people who play action, FPS or RPG's can see a little girl or an old woman running around with an M4 mowing down monsters or random terrorists? Is it believable to have a little girl or old woman take up the sword and save the world from an evil empire? Does it make sense to have a little girl or old woman as a pirate? Although games may not be realistic, part of what makes many imaginary worlds interesting is their believability.

On the other hand, it's much more believable to see a woman in her prime taking up any of these roles. It's not stereotypical (a good thing) but it's much more believable than a little girl or old woman. In some of the alternative type games like Harvest Moon, Animal Crossing or Pheonix Wright: Attorney at Law, things might be different though.

Actually, with a bit of mental bending, an elderly hero could still do action or a child hero for that matter. I drew up a concept with an old protagonist in mind and even posted it.

DeathWyrmNexus:

Actually, with a bit of mental bending, an elderly hero could still do action or a child hero for that matter. I drew up a concept with an old protagonist in mind and even posted it.

It's not the age thing so much, it's the age+gender combination (ie. little girl or old woman).

Novan Leon:

DeathWyrmNexus:

Actually, with a bit of mental bending, an elderly hero could still do action or a child hero for that matter. I drew up a concept with an old protagonist in mind and even posted it.

It's not the age thing so much, it's the age+gender combination (ie. little girl or old woman).

Well, I kept that in mind when I wrote the game idea, hence the gender neutrality in the story idea. I am cool with a granny sorceress having one last adventure to save her grandkids.

Cheeze_Pavilion:
You're right, though--there is some special connection between youth and the hero's quest, almost to the point of it being illogical: it always seems like somehow the youthful hero is nevertheless the only one capable of defeating the evil one.

That has to do with idealism. One stereotype that I honestly think is true (at least from my experience) is that young people tend to be more idealistic, and more ambitious and energetic, than older people, so they are more likely to FEEL capable of saving the world, regardless of whether they are. Old(er) people, at least in my experience, often look on idealism as "youthful immaturity," and consider being a corporate wage slave and henpecked husband (or housebound wife) as an inexorable fate that must be resigned to and compromised for. Video games show young people defeating evil because young people actually want to.

The interesting thing is why we've retained that when it comes to boys, but lost that connection when it comes to girls--mythology has figures like Athena and Artemis and Britomart that are capable of action and adventure, yet the cultural canon of video games is pretty devoid of them. Which I think is what the author was hitting on in the original article--what about that time before women are 'domesticated', when they're still free maidens as source material for getting non-sexualized women in our games?

It's the same root as that which spawns the puritan fear of sexuality. Subjugation of women is one of the central focuses of puritanical societies, and given how far right the USA is of about 90% of the rest of the civilized world, I wish I was surprised to see such an incredible emphasis on keeping women under the thumbs of man, either by pressuring them to hide their bodies as if they were ashamed of them, or show as much skin as possible for the amusement of the world.

Sylocat:

Cheeze_Pavilion:
You're right, though--there is some special connection between youth and the hero's quest, almost to the point of it being illogical: it always seems like somehow the youthful hero is nevertheless the only one capable of defeating the evil one.

That has to do with idealism. One stereotype that I honestly think is true (at least from my experience) is that young people tend to be more idealistic, and more ambitious and energetic, than older people, so they are more likely to FEEL capable of saving the world, regardless of whether they are. Old(er) people, at least in my experience, often look on idealism as "youthful immaturity," and consider being a corporate wage slave and henpecked husband (or housebound wife) as an inexorable fate that must be resigned to and compromised for. Video games show young people defeating evil because young people actually want to.

The interesting thing is why we've retained that when it comes to boys, but lost that connection when it comes to girls--mythology has figures like Athena and Artemis and Britomart that are capable of action and adventure, yet the cultural canon of video games is pretty devoid of them. Which I think is what the author was hitting on in the original article--what about that time before women are 'domesticated', when they're still free maidens as source material for getting non-sexualized women in our games?

It's the same root as that which spawns the puritan fear of sexuality. Subjugation of women is one of the central focuses of puritanical societies, and given how far right the USA is of about 90% of the rest of the civilized world, I wish I was surprised to see such an incredible emphasis on keeping women under the thumbs of man, either by pressuring them to hide their bodies as if they were ashamed of them, or show as much skin as possible for the amusement of the world.

Now I want to write a story concept about a fully covered old nun kicking ass with a robe full of weapons.

Sylocat:
It's the same root as that which spawns the puritan fear of sexuality. Subjugation of women is one of the central focuses of puritanical societies, and given how far right the USA is of about 90% of the rest of the civilized world, I wish I was surprised to see such an incredible emphasis on keeping women under the thumbs of man, either by pressuring them to hide their bodies as if they were ashamed of them, or show as much skin as possible for the amusement of the world.

You seem to forget that America is hardly the only culture to follow this trend. Take Japan for example. I've never seen a culture so amazed with the showing of women's panties or the size of womens breasts. And I think you'd be hard pressed to see much of a difference between entertainment media in the UK and in the US, if anything the US is much more physically revealing/women empowering than the UK.

wowzers i read all of that, well heres my opinions.

Men have been the heroes in our society ever since someone touched that big black rectangle and decided it would be a good idea to kill the apes who have over taken the watering hole. Men have allways been characterised as "the ones who become heroes". This has happend through years of men going to war and dieing as heroes. And this is still the case, men still die in war as heroes and while women have started serving in the military they are not usually in the front lines and are usually not in direct combat. Why? Because ever since we lived in clay huts it has been the men who thought and defended the tribe because they where typically stronger then the females of the tribe. But more importantly is the fact that the women provided a more important role to the tribe then defending its boundries, they helped to increase the population and to replace the men who died. This is far more important then fighting on the frontlines.

But sacrificing yourself on a battlefield is a great sacrifice you can make, and even though war originated from keeping your hunting areas clear of other hunters war has (or was) become the most glorious way to die. And who could say that sacrificing yourself for those weaker then you from evil bastard is not the most glorious way to go.

Can you see where I'm going here, well pretty much men have been heroes for a long time while women pretty much stay at home, can you really expect for those thousands of years of the beleif that men are the heroes to change in a few years?

BTW: I 100% support more female characters and more "realistic" femal characters to be in games but I can't see that happening in quite along time.

Many people have brought up changing Link to a female and make zelda male, but I don't think it would work. I mean I would play a game that has you start of as a young girl, then have a stupid boy wind you up into a giant mess, go to sleep for seven years and then wake up and have to go and rescue said boy. I personal think it would be GREAT to play as an adolescent femal and I would be all over this game like Roger Ebert on fatty foods if it didn't scream Legend Of Zelda. Why? because link is a character, like zelda is a character and the big gorron is a character, you can't change the character of a series too deeply or otherwise you would be changing the series and in my opinion destroying it.

As for the image of all women in gaming have DD breasts, well that is not suprinsing. Overly large women have been in comics and cartoons for well on 50 years now and I don't expect it too change seeing as how many adolescent men play video games.

Writing that though I've heard a few time that the number of female gamers no outnumbers the amount of gamers under 18. Prehaps this signals change...

Jeez, what a long read. Worth it, though! My stream of conscious flows from this point forth.

We are, unfortunately, working against a very long history of stereotyping and "slotting" people where we think they belong depending on easily-seen factors, including gender. HOWEVER, the engine of change is accelerating pretty rapidly, and boy/girl stereotypes are blurring- gradually, but perceptibly. When I was a kid, no girl wanted to own a pet frog or lizard, because they were "gross" and "slimy" and "only boys like things like that". Now, working at a pet store, I see just as many little girls looking in on the reptiles and frogs for sale as boys. It's both amusing and heartwarming to see a little girl in pigtails proudly march up with a gecko in a little plastic cup and talk about her "cool" new pet. The times, they are a-changin'.

I see the same sort of thing in games these days, as well. Granted, it's going more slowly and it's hard to see if you don't specifically look for it, but women of all sorts are gaining representation in games. Case in point: Detective Valerie Winterson in Max Payne 2. Here was a gray-haired mature woman, a mother, who was also a dedicated (but ultimately crooked) police officer and sort of a mentor/hero figure to Max. She's not the sort of character you'd have seen in games ten or twenty years ago.

Still, there's plenty more that can be done, but I don't think you'll see the spearhead coming from the retail games sector. No, I think that it's the independent game makers, the small companies and the people who put up Flash games for fun, who will most likely make the first move- because they don't have to worry as much about hitting sales projections or break-even points. Someone will come up with an idea, an unorthodox but compelling gameplay innovation starring some little girl in pigtails and her gecko, and it will be such a hit that the big gaming companies will trip over themselves to copy it.

Heck, I even had an idea five minutes into reading this thread. What if a young girl, innocently exploring the woods near her house, somehow stumbled into an abandoned mineshaft that led her into complete darkness, populated by horrendous creatures that had no qualms about making her into their next meal. Her only salvation is a ratty, leaky old mining lamp whose light both guides her path and keeps the monsters at bay. She'll have to solve environmental puzzles, possibly interact with less-hostile monsters and keep that lamp filled as she tries to make it back to the surface.

See? Involving gameplay that doesn't require machismo or violence and lets the character shine in her own way. If I can come up with something like that, there's got to be at least one of those independent game makers out there who can utterly blow me out of the water. I think we should throw Yahtzee at this- he'd come up with something unique, to say the least.

For a playable little girl thats actuality fun (and not exploitive) to play as, Good old Guilty Gear had May. The 10 year old pirate girl who fights with a ship anchor and magical porpoises. Also, for blazblue, Platinum The Trinity looks interesting (whenever she comes out that is). Then there is Arcana Heart, but that game is fucking creepy.

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