Zero Punctuation: Guitar Hero III

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Was that...John Romero?
That takes me back.
Gaming is in need of a new over exposed whipping boy. Let's use Cliffy B! Sure his games more or less deliver, but who cares.

hahaha i think yahtzee is trying to convince himself he isnt gay more then he is the rest of us. so yes, keep telling yourself that. whatever gets you to sleep at night.

Wanker's cramp, lol. Eddie Knox is my favorite character who is also MIA from Guitar Hero 3.

VMerken:
Vorsuc, hi :)

Allo!

VMerken:
Sure you wanted to quote me?

Sure, but please, we're all intelligent boys and girls, ignoring the points made in a reply and just dismissing disagreements with 'well that's your opinion' is very disrespectful. Either respect your OP enough to offer counter points and discussion of their points or ease the finger off the reply button.

VMerken:
The fact that you talk about "more free time than sense" indicates you're stereotyping the hardcore as well. A lot of hardcore gamers spend about as much time on games than a regular gamer, but they focus on a few titles while regulars use the same time to play ten games in a row. It's basically horizontal broadening versus vertical depth.

But x hours on 10 games or x hours on 5 is still x hours of time, which *most* people don't have.

The point I feel the review was trying to make and that the one I re-iterated was that while the early stages of the game can be completed with a reasonable 'time investment' the later stages require the patience of a saint and isolation in some secret government bunker removed from such distractions as a day job, family, kids and 'life'.

The point that 'hardcore gamers just play less games' (which is surely a definition that depends on who you talk to) doesn't really enter into the equation.

VMerken:
But these things are relative - for all you know, the GH3 QA team thought this to be a gradual difficulty curve.

And were ZP done by said GH3 QA team, you'd have a point. As it is, we're all here for
Yahtzee's opinion. And on that topic...

VMerken:
So the question remains: if a game offers you a challenge, do you step up to it, or not?

Which brings us back to the original point that 'yes we do, but only when it is indeed a challenge, not mission sodding impossible'.

Maybe I'm not 'hardcore' enough, maybe Yahtzee isn't, god knows he's mentioned often enough in his reviews that he's more than happy to f**k a game right off if it stops being fun and that's the key part of the point being made.

Not that we're running away from the challenge of GH3 when it is asking us to open a can of soda without breaking a nail, but that suddenly without warning game switches from 'ooo this is a bit tough' to the button mashing equivalent of sending the South Ascot Ballerina Association into Iraq on a peacekeeping mission, without any reason or warning other than the dark chuckle eminating from the console.

Sure that's the *opinion* being offered here, but just because it isn't yours doesn't make it wrong nor should it be a reason for you to "take offense" when such opinions are offered.

Happy gaming.

So... Am I the only one who wishes Yahtzee actually was gay?

vorsuc:
And just to throw this in there, Morello is FAR more of a legend of rock than the ego-train wreck that is Slash, not just playing guitar on our generations most famous rock anthems but also adding the hat of remixer and producer to his collection. I felt slighted for him that he was the 'easier' boss on the game.

You had me until this point. Seriously. I love Rage as much as the next, but Slash is kinda a rock demi-god, whatever one's opinion about his ego is. You'd have to get Kurt Hammet or Eddie Van Halen (etc) to compare, and yeah. This is not a dis to Morello, it's just that he's nowhere near as big of a legendary name as Slash, and his band isn't exactly Classic enough to qualify for Legend status. So.

Jeigan:
So... Am I the only one who wishes Yahtzee actually was gay?

Clearly you missed my earlier post.

To sum up: not at all.

Kogepan:

Corbineau:

Kogepan:
Wow, I hope you're not gay, Yahtzee. There go all my wicked fantasies.

Great review as always. :D Thanks for brightening my Wednesdays with your dry, sarcastic wit.

I hope he is, as that's what all my wicked fantasies revolve around.

LOL! I'm sure Yahtzee will be pleased to be the subject of so many wild fantasies, gay and straight.

It's probably the hat.

I will stop spamming this board now, but I simply had to say that your JTHM icon rocks.

...yes... but... :) It's on PC now - so all the console-haters finally got this game. :) And apparently it's selling like fu[beep]g crazy!

I agree with you completely about the difficulty.
I gave Rain of Blood a few tries and then decided that I was done with the game.

I havnt played it but I gay jokes get me to lol as the next guy.

Sorry, Corbineau I don't really have the time to read through five pages of messages. And that wasn't meant to rude, it's just the truth. It's quite nice to know, though :D

I would also like to point out that the people he calls freaks are the one who would send him emails about how he sucks at Guitar Hero and shouldn't criticize it because of that.

Also, as to people who don't understand the draw of GH: I personally see GH as more of an "interactive listening experience" than a game really. The songs that I keep coming back to and playing over are the same ones that I have subsequently bought and put onto my MP3 player.

LOL @ the new review - loved it.

<OFF TOPIC>

On Facebook? Join the Zero Punctuation Appreciation Society:

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Great review! I enjoy the game, but it truly can be too difficult sometimes. The Yapper dog bit reminds me of an Eddie Izzard routine. Keep it up, man!

The video, she is down, she won't load! Why does the escapist fear the you tube? reliable servers backed by the might of google is made of the good surly?

scratch that i'm a fool...apparently firefox isn't playing ball...safari was happy to play ball

ball was played

Corbineau:

Jeigan:
So... Am I the only one who wishes Yahtzee actually was gay?

Clearly you missed my earlier post.

To sum up: not at all.

Seconded, and yes, it is definately the trilby.

Also, I don't hate GH3, but I also wouldn't fork out AUD$148.00 to buy the thing.

Oi Oi Yahtzee!
Y'know what really sucks about GH3?
The thing that blatantly shows you that Neversoft have got their greasy mits on it?
You can use cheats.
CHEATS
WHAT THE HELL MAN?
I mean, i love the game, its great, makes me feel badass infront of my friends ^-^
But, Cheats man..........
Thats like, admitting that your game is so shoddy that the only way you can possibly spruce it up a bit and make it a little more intersting is to make it so you can fuck the hard way and still come out a winner.....

Not happy man,
Neversoft screwed up Tony Hawks Pro Skater
And now this.....

Lets get this comment buried in the pile then.

Yahtzee's the reason I'm on this forum. It gives me a reminder to watch his rants every week. And yeah, there are some things I wished he complained about (such as, I dunno, the publishers basically pissing on us loyal PS2 users who've been with the franchise since GH1 by passing off the port to a third party or how multiplayer is to be enforced if we want to play some of the songs), but then again I realise Yahtzee isn't me so he can complain about whatever he wants.

And hey, genuinely funny piece I fully agree with on a game I went out and bought on (UK) release date regardless of knowing how much of a cash in it is, formed by someone who seems to be at the same "just about competant at Hard but don't put me in front of that Slayer song please" level as I am. I'm a happy little mini-fanboy now. Can't wait for next week's.

Hey Vorsuc :). Your feedback is much appreciated.

VMerken:
Sure, but please, we're all intelligent boys and girls, ignoring the points made in a reply and just dismissing disagreements with 'well that's your opinion' is very disrespectful. Either respect your OP enough to offer counter points and discussion of their points or ease the finger off the reply button.

Well, right back at you. You dismissed the point made in my OP and instead talked about something else in your reply. Even hinted at me being part of the "pissing contest", which isn't true. By the way, I did address some of your points and offered counter points or tried to rationalise since differing, equivalent perspectives exist. That's why I broke up your post and responded to each "block". Sorry if some counter arguments point to their relativity, but that's how I see it.

vorsuc:
But x hours on 10 games or x hours on 5 is still x hours of time, which *most* people don't have.

x is a variable, and thus x can equal 0. So the equation you propose is valid for all people, although I won't consider the x=0 population for obvious reasons.

The precise value of x depends on the person involved, sure. How much time is one willing to invest in video gaming? How much time does one have available? The precise amount can differ from day to day. It's a complex matter, which is why comparisons can only be made if x is the same for the gamers you're trying to compare. That was the assumption I made in my previous posts. Thing is you can have hardcore and regular gamers with x = 10, you can also have such gamers with x = 1. As long as x is the same for both, one can compare their gaming behaviour, evaluate it on an equivalent basis.

It's the same in science: in order to study gas pressure in function of gas volume, all other relevant gas parameters need to be constants.

By the way, a more accurate depiction of "regular gamer versus hardcore gamer" isn't 10 games versus 5 games, but rather 10 games versus 1 - maybe 2. A hardcore gamer specialises, a regular gamer wants different experiences. Whether they each play 1 hour a day on their games or 10, is irrelevant.

vorsuc:
The point I feel the review was trying to make and that the one I re-iterated was that while the early stages of the game can be completed with a reasonable 'time investment' the later stages require the patience of a saint and isolation in some secret government bunker removed from such distractions as a day job, family, kids and 'life'.

Sure, but the review also made it a point (and showed it visually) that if you live up to the challenge of GH3, then you're a "freak". Which means the people who made those GH3 Youtube movies are freaks. Sorry, but I do not consider (the majority of) them freaks and am a little offended (not utterly and completely offended, of course, this is Zero Punctuation after all :) at that kind of gamer branding.

vorsuc:
The point that 'hardcore gamers just play less games' (which is surely a definition that depends on who you talk to) doesn't really enter into the equation.

It does, and is central to my considerations, as shown above. I do not call someone who plays video games 10 hours a day just to complete them "hardcore". However, someone who plays 1 video game 1 hour a day could very well be hardcore, if the player already completed the game earlier on and is now attempting to hone his/her skills.

Of course, within this terminology, a regular gamer could also be considered a sign of going "hardcore", since in that case the player's genre of choice is "playing everything". However, if one wants to go truly deep in that case and become hardcore at it, the time investment needed will be significant, and that is not something I'd expect a regular gamer to cough up. There are always exceptions, of course.

vorsuc:
And were ZP done by said GH3 QA team, you'd have a point. As it is, we're all here for Yahtzee's opinion. And on that topic...

Yahtzee's review is only one viewpoint concerning the relativity of the perceived difficulty curve of GH3 - which fits perfectly to the point I discussed.

vorsuc:
Which brings us back to the original point that 'yes we do, but only when it is indeed a challenge, not mission sodding impossible'.

Again, whether or not it's mission sodding impossible is relative. For you it is, for someone else it isn't, for yet someone else it was but no longer is because he or she practiced or discovered a new, seemingly trivial insight which turned out to be crucial for the game segment involved. Either way, *IF* the QA team was up to snuff (important assumption, obviously), the segment you're facing is definitely not mission sodding impossible. Several people got past it. It's up to you to run away or find out how they did it (with or without a little help).

So let me rephrase my question: "You're at a point in the game where it *seems* mission sodding impossible. Do you persist, or back down?"

vorsuc:
Maybe I'm not 'hardcore' enough, maybe Yahtzee isn't, god knows he's mentioned often enough in his reviews that he's more than happy to f**k a game right off if it stops being fun and that's the key part of the point being made.

Not that we're running away from the challenge of GH3 when it is asking us to open a can of soda without breaking a nail, but that suddenly without warning game switches from 'ooo this is a bit tough' to the button mashing equivalent of sending the South Ascot Ballerina Association into Iraq on a peacekeeping mission, without any reason or warning other than the dark chuckle eminating from the console.

Personal anecdote: first time I faced Nightmare (a boss creature) in Devil May Cry (Normal mode), I thought I was going insane. Before, everything went relatively smooth, but Nightmare creamed me like no tomorrow with me not even close to denting it. Major spike in difficulty for me. Knee-jerk reaction: "What the **** were they thinking with this thing"?! I faced a choice: quit playing and never see the ending, or persist. I persisted, gradually discovered a few interesting facts about Nightmare's defences, and eventually overcame the challenge. And it felt great - personal victories like that are an important part of gaming for me now, and I can appreciate the road you need to follow to achieve them. Like I said before, rhythm games are not my genre so I can't say if the GH3 spike is similar to the DMC spike I experienced, but the existence of the Youtube videos lead me to suspect that this is indeed the case.

vorsuc:
Sure that's the *opinion* being offered here, but just because it isn't yours doesn't make it wrong nor should it be a reason for you to "take offense" when such opinions are offered.

Again, I do not take offense because Yahtzee perceived a difficulty spike and talks about it. I take offense in him calling those who got past that spike "freaks". I'm pretty sure that save for a few exceptions, this simply isn't the case.

vorsuc:
Happy gaming.

Thanks, you too :).

Yahtzee and Maddox are quite similar, if you look. Both use copious amounts of sarcasm, swearing, wit and absurdity to make points and laughs. They also both seem to be awe-inspiring and hate-inducing at the same time.

I'm not saying Yahtzee copied Maddox, mind you. I'm just saying they're similar... and it's working for both of them. It being their style.

Anyway... I am confused as to why people are getting so defensive about G.H 3. It didn't seem that special to me, I have no idea who any of the "famous" people are and it just looks boring, to be honest.

I think the only good thing I can say about it is that it caused Yahtzee to make me laugh, which is the only good thing I can say about Halo 3, as well.

It's not System Shock 3, Mercenaries 2, Prototype or Duke Nukem Forever... why are there so many people getting worked up about it?!

Hmm...All I really thought of GH3 was that it was just an excuse to have a bigger playlist, and nothing more. They took out Clive Winston, Eddie Knox, Paradox, and replaced them with a 10 year old Midori, Elroy Budvis (WTF?), and MetalHead. I actually happen to like MetalHead, but I guess I will never understand why Midroi and Elroy (still...WTF?) had to be included. Multiplayer was practically left in the dust, even though Battle Mode was the newbie. But Battle Modes tends to be either very fun (if you throw no powerups at all or just sparringly) or very cruel for the dickheads that leave their Guitars hanging up whenever they got a powerup. To me, GH3 is basically GH2 on steroids (Even more so with the incredible difficulty on Hard Mode. DAMN YOU RAINING BLOOD!), but I still got it for the Wii since I never owned a Guitar Hero game.

Plus now that I hearing more about Guitar Hero for the DS (maybe it's just me), I'm actualy kind of damning the idea. I'd rather see the sequel of Elite Beat Agents be made. Thanks Yahtzee for that review. YOU ROCK!!!

...I need coffee.

Jeigan:
Sorry, Corbineau I don't really have the time to read through five pages of messages. And that wasn't meant to rude, it's just the truth. It's quite nice to know, though :D

It's all good. :D We should start a band.

I haven't enjoyed any of the GH series, but I attribute it to a lack of musical talent that extends even into to video game realm. I'm not saying the games are bad, but perhaps rhzic speaks for those of us whose musical ability peaks at synching an Ipod.

Boricua_bob:
Plus now that I hearing more about Guitar Hero for the DS (maybe it's just me), I'm actualy kind of damning the idea. I'd rather see the sequel of Elite Beat Agents be made. Thanks Yahtzee for that review. YOU ROCK!!!

Elite Beat Agents sequel... oh yes now please. I'm curious as to how Guitar Hero would work on the DS, but I think more dubious than anything else.

Voodoo Child:
Seconded, and yes, it is definately the trilby.

Mmmm... Trilby.

Corbineau:

Voodoo Child:
Seconded, and yes, it is definately the trilby.

Mmmm... Trilby.

Yes, the trilby adds a certain... je ne sais quoi. :D

And thanks re: the icon! Jhonen Vasquez is godlike in his art style and humor.

Eh... this was the worst review yet... Always been a huge fan, but this review was neither terribly critical, informative or funny.

"I'm not gay!" c'mon. Stupid joke.

ps. Review Mario Galaxy!

-Keith

Win!

Yahtzee just sucks at Guitar Hero III.

Seriously, besides hammering out achievements, there is absolutely no reason to play Guitar Hero on anything but expert. It's just too fucking easy. Guitar Hero is in the RYTHYM genre for a reason: you need to have a sense of rythym. If you don't, then either stay away from the game or enjoy the 1-note-every-five-minutes stylings of easy and medium.

I am pissed at the lack of Clive Winston, but as Judy Nails was my character of choice I'm more pissed that she has been completely slutified and turned all "hardcore" and shit. What happened to the fun-loving, cute little bundle of videogame character from Guitar Hero II?

jackolantern:
that is absurd, sir.

No more absurd than telling people playing a video game to do the real life 'equivilent'. Spend what, 60 bucks for your latest FPS.. or a few thousand for a good rifle, not to mention the cost of ammunition, time at a firing range... Much like it would cost a great deal more and more time invested to learn a real guitar. The comparison is actually fairly similar.

jackolantern:
but, the exchange of ideas is fruitful - much more fruitful than exercising hand-eye coordination in a very uninteresting and limited way

Calling anonymously posting on a message board about a video game review a fruitful exchange of ideas is about as silly as calling playing guitar hero a guitar training simulator.

ive never played it. i cant say it struck my appeal, being able to play a real guitar an all. but a good review nevertheless.

I suppose I could be called a 'hardcore' GH player. I log more hours on Guitar Hero games than I do on just about any other type of games, although I enjoy the RTS genre and of course multiplayer Smash Bros.

I also play real guitar. OMG. Totally different things. Real guitar costs about as much as a next-gen console + GH + controller for a decent guitar and amp, and the guitar learning curve is MUCH steeper and more complex than the Guitar Hero curve... and you can't play any other games on your amp other than "let's annoy the neighbors."

I have been playing real guitar for about five years now and have prior musical experience with other instruments, and I still can't play "Freebird" or "Cliffs of Dover" on my real guitar. Hell, I can play War Pigs, but that's only third tier GHII, right? Honestly, comparing Guitar Hero to real guitar is like comparing Counter-Strike to paintball; there's a major cost difference between the two, and a reasonable increase in difficulty along with other distinctions.

Guitar Hero can also be a lot more fun as practicing real guitar by yourself is not always fun and can be quite frustrating. Also, having the whole "backing band" behind you in Guitar Hero is very satisfying, as is nailing "that tricky spot." It's like a jumping no-scope headshot to all you Halo players or killing twelve Zerglings with four Marines in Starcraft; that "YES!" feeling.

One of the main reasons I am attracted to Guitar Hero is because it is a very social game. It is easy to get people of all sorts to play with me, even (and especially) women. Try getting a girl with little to no gaming experience to play Halo or Starcraft or Baldur's Gate II and, even if they're willing to try, they get frustrated and confused very quickly. Guitar Hero, on the other hand, is easy to pick up, even for those with little to no prior gaming experience, but difficult to master.

I like the fact that there are hard tracks on GH3; however, I don't think that they should have been in the main setlist. The bonus songs are where the absurd finger-tying stuff should really go, and this is coming from someone who's 4-starred One and Cliffs of Dover, passed Raining Blood, and beaten the Devil. Also, I agree on the "WTF" for quickplay co-op. Online co-op and pro faceoff is awesome though...

I also agree on the negative effects of product placement and the generally ugly look of the game. The drummer in particular moves like a bad Disney robot. And, the new hammer-on system can be confusing. But, overall, there are a lot of great songs and great times to be had with it.

Guitar Hero actually singlehandedly revitalized my interest in gaming. Before Guitar Hero, I had fallen into a pattern of playing games to "beat" them, and not necessarily for fun. Guitar Hero really injected the "pure fun" back into the gaming experience for me in a way that the Wii was supposed to (but didn't for me), and for that alone I strongly recommend it, regardless of how suddenly successful or sold-out it is.

There's this conscious backlash against the "mainstream" and "successful" games, bands, and television shows in today's critical society; to that I say, get off your elitist high chairs and come down and have some fun.

Okay so:

1) Wednesday is no longer just "Oh my God, only two more days until I'm free for the weekend" day. It's "Gotta Have Yahtzee Day"

2) I fucking love you. Your videos are amazing, I love your wit and humor - it makes me smile when nothing else can, I swear.

So thank you for that.

-bows-

@lpneiman
Think I just heard Yahtzee's zipper drop.

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