138: If Only Wally West Could Wavedash

If Only Wally West Could Wavedash

"The line between feature and exploit increasingly blurs as videogames advance. To make a judgment one way or another on a potential loophole is to enter a losing proposition, and to waste an exorbitant amount of time. What's most intriguing is how the use of an exploit changes a game's atmosphere; sometimes predictably, sometimes not."

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The thought of a wavedashing Fox or Dr. Mario is enough to send shivers down a veteran player's spine. While it is perfectly fair, it falls in the category of things that you shouldn't do to a lesser gamer. It takes the fun out of the game to be beaten so thoroughly by a non-standard technique, leaving only hollow virtual sport and competition for competition's sake.
That being said, watching two expert wavedashers is akin to witnessing a deadly ballet.

I've always loathed exploiters in games - griefing in general, actually. Nothing makes me disconnect from a game quite like some arsewipes camping a spawnpoint, or exploiting a mechanic solely for their own sadistic amusement.

After all, where do we get the most satisfaction? Do we get it from clipping through the wall and shooting some sucker from an impeneterable vantage point, or knocking their top off on the fly with some sweet gunslinging?

Call me old-fashioned, but I always savour the effort and dedication, as much as the victory. Simply going for the cheap kills defeats the premise of it being a game.

Just a small critique on this article. While it seems to me the bulk was describing how a group of Smash fanatics transformed your weekly video game get together into a serious tournament, your comments in the beginning of the article allude otherwise. When you mentioned "The line between feature and exploit increasingly blurs as videogames advance", I half-expected a discussion of how players of certain games can take bugs and flaws in a game's engine and use them to give them an edge in multiplayer competitions, or do things otherwise unheard of in single player games. When it just turned into the aforementioned weekly gaming ruination tale, I was a little surprised, and disappointed.

this was interesting perspective, and yes melee was the best back when it was just a simple party game compared to a crazy competivive game,

One thing though don't complain about short hopping that was an intended move, while I abuse the hell out of wavedashing aka I don't walk or run hardly at all, I admit it is stupid and kinda ruins the game a little, ohh and the the ppl you were playing may also have been jump canceling another glich its much harder to see though, basically it allows standing attacks to be done immediately while running aka it has similar advanatages to the wavedash only its very difficult to do anything but the up smash, up B, or grab with it unlike wavedashing.

I would of liked it if wavedashing was incorperated into the game aka intended and balanced but it was taken out in brawl for the exact reason that they couldn't balance the wavedash.

Just be thankful these guys stuck to the legit rules rather than being assholes running wavedashing with iceclimbers up to you than either wobbling=infiate combo of gayness and banned or grab with nana and freeze you in one spot rack up 500% dmg then grab and toss off edge also banned.

There are some pretty cool gliches in melee that arn't broken though an example is if you up guard or jump immdiatly after being hit by a rapid spining attack, aka pickachu down smash, young link up B

Now I am all against any sort of exploit but wave dashing and shuffling are not exploits. While wave dashing may not have been intended to be in the game, the fact that it is there and any one could do it makes it legitimate. It is more of an advanced technique because it is avaiable to any one who spends the time to learn it. Part of melees success is that advanced techniques such as previously mentioned are in the game. It gives the game a huge learning curve that is often seen in competitive games. While the mood may have been changed the over all level of competitiveness went up, so in a way they only increased what you intended to do.

A side note, wave dashing is helpful but not game breaking, a good shuffler is much more threatening.

The moment there is a cash prize expect people to come looking for it.

Nidenel:
Now I am all against any sort of exploit but wave dashing and shuffling are not exploits. While wave dashing may not have been intended to be in the game, the fact that it is there and any one could do it makes it legitimate. It is more of an advanced technique because it is avaiable to any one who spends the time to learn it. Part of melees success is that advanced techniques such as previously mentioned are in the game. It gives the game a huge learning curve that is often seen in competitive games. While the mood may have been changed the over all level of competitiveness went up, so in a way they only increased what you intended to do.

A side note, wave dashing is helpful but not game breaking, a good shuffler is much more threatening.

The moment there is a cash prize expect people to come looking for it.

I can definatly see where you are comming from I know plenty of ppl like this heck I accually have less problems with the wavedash then I do with some of the games hitboxes (aka pickachus up smash wait your telling me it makes his hitbox smaller wtf) , but I ask myself was this game more enjoyable to play before or after I learned about wavedashing, I would have to say before unless im Luigi who needed the wavedash cause his running sucks, nothing is better then a wavedash to up B.

And yes shuffling is really annoying, one of the main reasons why zelda (not shiek) zelda sucks.

However I still think that wavedashing has inherent problems however as far as gay and broken at least this was unintended unlike SNKs ever so famous CUSTOM COMBOS, why do they keep making games with that they are all so broken.

Nidenel:
Now I am all against any sort of exploit but wave dashing and shuffling are not exploits. While wave dashing may not have been intended to be in the game, the fact that it is there and any one could do it makes it legitimate.

What is a bug but an unintended feature? You could make the same argument for clipping or the crazy rocket jump from Halo 2. Just because a feature is in a game doesn't make it legit or fair. Plus, even if it is intended, that doesn't mean it should be abused. In Street Fighter 2, I could spam Vega's slide kick all day long and destroy my friends, but I can't think of a quicker way to lose a gaming buddy than to exploit an unbalanced mechanic.

I hate when my game turns into a end all be all victory march. I like it most when it's just on the verge of it and still have the freedom to experiment.

That's why I do only 10 arena matches a week in WoW. It's where people stop usinng setups they find fun or interesting and start using the so called best and usualy the most boring setups which will likely guarantee victory.

m_jim:
In Street Fighter 2, I could spam Vega's slide kick all day long and destroy my friends, but I can't think of a quicker way to lose a gaming buddy than to exploit an unbalanced mechanic.

or you could be a good gaming buddy and tell your friend to block low.

SonofSeth:
I hate when my game turns into a end all be all victory march. I like it most when it's just on the verge of it and still have the freedom to experiment.

That's why I do only 10 arena matches a week in WoW. It's where people stop usinng setups they find fun or interesting and start using the so called best and usualy the most boring setups which will likely guarantee victory.

The usual is 10 games a week in the arena. Nerf warriors, they are so OP.

Yeah I never learned to wavedash because I refuse to. Kind of sucks the fun out of the game. Thanfully Brawl got rid of wave dashing and limited shorthopping. Hope fully we can all enjoy Smash bros., the greatest party game ever, once again. I wanna play as Ike

Zera:
Yeah I never learned to wavedash because I refuse to. Kind of sucks the fun out of the game. Thankfully Brawl got rid of wave dashing and limited shorthopping. Hope fully we can all enjoy Smash bros., the greatest party game ever, once again. I wanna play as Ike

I entirely agree. For me, I've seen so many people play on Final Destination, and ONLY Final Destination, I can't stand to look at the stage anymore. It just stopped being fun to play on, for me.

Oh, and funny thing that, removing wave dashing. If it was such an "advanced technique", why remove it? Last I checked, you typically do that to bugs, glitches, and unbalancing features. Take your pick.

I only play on Final Destination when my friends and i decide to have a serious match.

As for wave-dashing, i just take it in stride. I can't do it, i don't really see the need to. But I win more than lose against people who can do it very well. It's so funny to go to tourneys and see peoples faces when I win without WD'ing or edge-guarding.(The really cruel actually hang yourself off the edge so they can't grab on edge-guarding.) Priceless.

The article seems to make wavedashing out to be the be-all-end-all of Melee. As someone else said, it can be important, but it's not a game breaker. I used to routinely get beaten by a friend of mine who didn't wavedash. It's just one of about a dozen "advanced" (read: takes time to get down) techniques that are a necessity for tourney-level play.

Personally, I like playing Smash as a fighter-type game, like Tekken, Street Fighter, etc. I prefer playing on tourney-sanctioned maps, using no items and five-stock. I've played against Skypal, the best smash crew in the Northwest US (and lost horribly. We played for three or four hours and I won once). Smash is an incredibly deep fighting game, even though there are only two attack buttons. (If you're not convinced of its depth or complexity, go to smashboards.com).

But at the same time, it's a fantastic party game. And when you're playing 4v4 FFA, all the advanced techniques pretty much go right out the window. There's just too much chaos going on, and anyone can win. And that's what makes it popular: The low bar of entry. And I'll be honest, I don't particularly enjoy FFA anywhere near as much as 1v1 5-stock. But it's also a fun time because of the human interaction and because of the chaos.

There's always going to be people playing a game purely to be the best that they can be. Those are the people who dissect the game five ways from Sunday, analyzing hitboxes, counting frames, and spending hours on Final Destination just learning how to wavedash and trying to SH fair (short hop into forward air) with Fox (Garr! So difficult!). Their intent is not to break the game, to cheat or to have unfair advantage over other people; in fact, many tourney-level gamers have some of the strictest ethics codes that you'll run across in gameland. They are driven to refine their craft and hone it to a razor-sharp edge. They are more akin to the roaming martial arts master, looking for fights so he can learn techniques and better himself.

@Necrohydra: I'm not positive why wavedashing is not in Brawl, but since it was an effect of the physics system in Melee, the recreation of the physics system for Brawl may have rendered it unavailable. There may have been no focused intent to remove it; its removal may have just "come with the territory" of the new system.

Wavedashing, like edgehogging and SHFFLing, is no more "cheap" than air dodging or grabbing while shielded. They are simply techniques that some people aren't aware of. I played against someone who challenged me to a game because he thought he had some secret skill (shield throwing, as it turns out) that I didn't know about. Then he almost literally threw a tantrum when I wavedashed and edgehogged, "secret skills" that he didn't know about. He was all fine and dandy with him having the upper hand, but once the tables were turned and there was something he didn't know about, he called foul. I offered to show him how to do it, but he wouldn't have any of it.

People who are serious about bettering themselves not only do not mind showing people how to up their game, but they can't wait to do so. It makes the other player more competent and enables them to do things that the more experienced person might not have thought to do.

Ok, I'm done. Bottom line is that I feel that there's a place for both serious competition and party game time under the single roof of Smash Brothers.

On that note, if there's anyone in the Seattle area who wants to play, shoot me an email.

Guys like that are dicks. Here are the rules: no glitches, no cheats, no shortcuts, no exploits. If you need these things , in MY opinion and ONLY my opinion , you suck.

HDRob Inglis:
Guys like that are dicks. Here are the rules: no glitches, no cheats, no shortcuts, no exploits. If you need these things , in MY opinion and ONLY my opinion , you suck.

Who are you to say what is or is not a glitch?

Man, and I thought Sirlin's Playing to Win was appropriate for the last article...

incoherent:

HDRob Inglis:
Guys like that are dicks. Here are the rules: no glitches, no cheats, no shortcuts, no exploits. If you need these things , in MY opinion and ONLY my opinion , you suck.

Who are you to say what is or is not a glitch?

Man, and I thought Sirlin's Playing to Win was appropriate for the last article...

Ah, Playing to Win. A sometimes overrated and overcited--but nevertheless essential--point about exploits, wrapped up in so much irreverential inanity. It's an important read for any gamer, not because Sirlin is necessarily right, but because it portrays the extremes of the exploit argument so clearly. Purposeful or not, Sirlin is so clear about his personal views that it makes him pleasantly transparent.

I think the greater message is not "do your best to be ruthless, the evolution of gaming technique will take care of it all in due time," but rather "play the game your own way." Even though Sirlin looks down on those that would shy away from his ideal peak of the game and instead "play their own homemade version of the game with made-up rules," there's nothing essentially wrong with that. Similarly, there's nothing wrong with the shamelessly exploiting, hypercompetitive types. They'll either stay away from one another and enjoy the same game in different ways, or they'll wind up in the same arena at some point and then both groups have to reconcile with one another.

Though, if I were to have a gripe with Sirlin's Playing to Win as the essay that it is, it might have to be where he cites the concept of game theory in a less than accurate manner as an explanation for depth in games. But alas.

What they DID was exploit your courtesy. Most College guys I know would have booted them out from the start. Well, at least know that chivalry is always a turn-on for worthwhile women, so hang on to being noble in even the most arbitrary of situations!

Yes, I mean to say when I am playing for fun, by a set of rules that permits it for a larger group, most people, I am very frustrated when someone takes advantage of that, and ruins a friendly game.

Rob:
That's the essential difference and point of the article really. They were having a tournament on a level that a tournament level player would consider casual. It's very hard to make stipulations against that kind of thing, other than not throwing something open to the general public and keeping it internal.

This article came across to me as someone who's been harshly introduced to the concept of fighting game competition. Personally I think its rather funny to see a modern day example, as many have had these kind of experiences in long gone days with SF.

As for glitches in fighting games, simply said: they will be used. They have been used since SF2. And a lot of these glitches have been later interred into the game's design. Wavedashing in Tekken (where the Smash Bros name comes from) wasn't an intended technique but since then Namco has changed things to specifically allow or disallow its usage for some characters (creating a natural imbalance along the way). Guilty Gear's jump installs are also something I can't believe were an intended feature. As was the invention of fuzzy guarding in VF. Most of the time these kinds of things won't break the game, rather they create extra layers of depth, but every now and again they do break a game, prime example being Soul Calibur 3.

Incandescence:
Ah, Playing to Win. A sometimes overrated and overcited--but nevertheless essential--point about exploits, wrapped up in so much irreverential inanity. It's an important read for any gamer, not because Sirlin is necessarily right, but because it portrays the extremes of the exploit argument so clearly. Purposeful or not, Sirlin is so clear about his personal views that it makes him pleasantly transparent.

I think the greater message is not "do your best to be ruthless, the evolution of gaming technique will take care of it all in due time," but rather "play the game your own way." Even though Sirlin looks down on those that would shy away from his ideal peak of the game and instead "play their own homemade version of the game with made-up rules," there's nothing essentially wrong with that. Similarly, there's nothing wrong with the shamelessly exploiting, hypercompetitive types. They'll either stay away from one another and enjoy the same game in different ways, or they'll wind up in the same arena at some point and then both groups have to reconcile with one another.

Though, if I were to have a gripe with Sirlin's Playing to Win as the essay that it is, it might have to be where he cites the concept of game theory in a less than accurate manner as an explanation for depth in games. But alas.

I wouldn't say that Playing to Win is perfectly accurate, but the point he makes most clearly is that not every technique that beats you is "cheating". "You threw me/spiked me/used Jigglypuff's Sleep on me and therefore you have no skill and you suck" is an appeal used far too often, and that's the "scrub" archetype Sirlin uses.

I posted it in response to Rob, who said that any "glitch, cheat, shortcut, or exploit" is cheating, without specifying what those are. For that matter, Sirlin himself doesn't do a great job of distinguishing exploits that get absorbed into the larger metagame and exploits that don't (and that among the hardcore are considered "cheating").

When me and my friend played against one another, I used Roy and he used Ganondorf. We were the types that didn't block, hell we refused to block. In FFA matches we might've been knocked around but our sheer tenacity usually made us the last two players in the game as we didn't back down from fighting head on. I'll miss Roy.

I had a similar experience at my college. The school sponsored a gaming league (Which was awesome) and at the end of the year there was a Brawl tournament. Now, my friends and I regularly beat the tar out of each other, we've also picked up the nuances of techniques like that, blah blah blah, but we NEVER took the game too seriously. At this tournament, he members of the league (and my small circle of friends) played it like a party game, we were having fun with all the crazy explosions and unpredicability, but then there were some high school students there who did the exact same thing in the article, took the game FAR too seriously, using every 'cheap' tactic in the book, only using Final Destination, no items, Fox or Falco only. Completely ruthless. And not even having a good time at the party either. Booooring and not fun to play against. They apparently only came to utterly crush anyone in the tournament, and be damned if they had to talk with anyone else. I don't claim to be a god when it comes to video games at all, but when I beat one of them, I felt pretty good about myself. He on the other hand, was livid. I could hear him cussing up a storm under his breath, which struck me as in the opposite spirit the tournament intended. And to be honest, I thought that it was an isolated event until I read this article.

Edit: Wait, why the hell did they put this in the featured content bar. Whatta waste of time :(

Goddamn February 2008

 

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