Zero Punctuation: Super Smash Bros. Brawl

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A great review. Confrontational like never before, but still a great review.

A friend of mine brought his Gamecube to my apartment once and I got to play this game. Meh. All I saw was dustclouds from far away and a "1P" arrow pointing to where I was supposed to be. Then I kept falling off ledges. I never felt like I got to play Bowser or Yoshi so much as I played a flashing arrow.

I'm not hating on Smash Brothers, and as a tabletop game designer I don't agree with Yahtzee all the time (I like JRPGs; bite me!) but now that I know of someone ELSE who thinks the SSB games aren't perfect "10" games (figuratively speaking) I no longer feel like I'm alone in the world. :P

mspencer82:

Garfgarog:
Also, turns out that claiming a game to be shallow when you didn't actually even try to find depth beyond what is immediately presented to you makes an opinion wrong.

Enjoy your Halo.

Hah! I was just wondering how long it would take someone to mention Halo just because I have a Monitor for an avatar. You lasted longer than I expected, good job.

Okay, saying I didn't try to find depth in SSBM is really wrong. I played through the story mode twice, play several matches against the computer controlled opponents, and even unlocked two or three characters. When I said I got bored with it after five minutes, that didn't mean I stopped playing after five minutes. I just suffered a little longer hoping it would get better. For me, it didn't.

Unless I missed something, you should unlock all characters from a single playthrough of SSE. That aside, you didn't really try to find depth, or else you'd have spent time actively trying to find glitches that could be used offensively. Sounds more like you played the game expecting a whole new way of playing to jump out and kick you in the face.

gigirizzi:

Garfgarog:

mspencer82:

Well you hooting Smash Bros fans can't seem to get that I'm entitled to my own opinion....

Not when it's wrong, especially not when you've admitted to trolling. Have fun.

Can i ask one thing?

I see that in many forums...

Why is talking not positively about Nintendo almost always considered trolling?

You're doing it wrong.

I have become "that guy" on-

Halo 3
Sonic Riders (He was good back in the adventure days and I'm loyal)
Mario Cart (all of them)
Something else.

I agree with every point, except for the button mashing. Either you aren't as good as you think or you're playing it like a fighting game, which it isn't.

DoA4-
I
KICK
ASS
WITH
EVERYONE
Because all I have to do is ram my head into the controller.

Smash Bros Melee
I can learn all the moves (through practice) and I still suck with-
Bowser
Roy (even though I'm decent with Marth.. Weird.)
Ness
Jigglypuff (It's not like anyone likes playing as that thing anyway.)

I actually do know all the moves because of the games tendency to force you to play as characters you don't like, but even after reading up on how to use tactics and how to blah-blah-blah I can't use them properly at all.

On a completely different note, Nintendo needs to learn that nobody gives a crap about 15 minute melee and we certainly don't want to have to go through it for one fucking character.

Unfortunatly, I believe I'm becoming a collector on Smash. I'm addicted to those trophies. The lottery, the fricken challenges. Oh yes the challenges...

The cutscenes kicked ass. No-one can deny that.

Huh. A lot of people signed up just to comment on this review.

Uh, I've been meaning to register before, I've just been busy! Ah, to hell with it.

I played the original Smash Bros. once. I attempted to play Melee but was discouraged by being completely and utterly "PWNED" by everyone and their girlfriend. The only thing that attracted me to Brawl was King Dedede--a friend and I have argued for years on who would win in a fight between Dedede and Bowser, and when the big blue penguin was announced for Brawl, well, it was on.

(For the record, he's become a "That Guy" so I've only been able to beat him once.)

So my opinion on Brawl? It's a fun game but I know unless I invest in a Wii and devote time I don't have in learning every damn quick about Dedede I'll never be as good as the guys I know who have played Melee almost religiously since it came out so I don't let it bother me. Same thing with Halo. Yes, I could practice at becoming a crackshot with the sniper rifle, but I DON'T WANT TO. Partially because I hate snipers and because I have better things to do.

I agree that it plays like one big fanfic and the more hyped characters should have been available from the get-go (leave the obscure and wave-to-the-fans characters for later).

EDIT: Are people calling for depth in a fighting game? Why the hell do you think Street Fighter has had such a hard time with a coherent storyline? IT'S NOT IMPORTANT.

Garfgarog:
Unless I missed something, you should unlock all characters from a single playthrough of SSE. That aside, you didn't really try to find depth, or else you'd have spent time actively trying to find glitches that could be used offensively. Sounds more like you played the game expecting a whole new way of playing to jump out and kick you in the face.

A single playthrough!? What the hell, man? I must have got jipped or something, because the only things I unlocked were Doctor Mario, a Pokemon, and somebody else.

That's just it though, a game has to suck you in right from the get go to make you interested in it enough that you want to find all the glitches, unlock every character, etc. I shouldn't have to play a game more than two days before I find something I enjoy. It's about first impressions, and I didn't get a good one from Melee.

I agree 100%, although due to my lack of video-game proficency, the random-button-mashing factor generally works in my favor rather than againts it. ;)

The Gil-Monster:
A great review. Confrontational like never before, but still a great review.

A friend of mine brought his Gamecube to my apartment once and I got to play this game. Meh. All I saw was dustclouds from far away and a "1P" arrow pointing to where I was supposed to be. Then I kept falling off ledges. I never felt like I got to play Bowser or Yoshi so much as I played a flashing arrow.

I'm not hating on Smash Brothers, and as a tabletop game designer I don't agree with Yahtzee all the time (I like JRPGs; bite me!) but now that I know of someone ELSE who thinks the SSB games aren't perfect "10" games (figuratively speaking) I no longer feel like I'm alone in the world. :P

Ew, no wonder. Bowser and Yoshi are the worst characters. :P

But seriously, you could have picked smaller levels. Smash Bros can be played in dozens of different ways to fit your tastes. I'm not sure how you kept falling off ledges though, that's a bit of a mystery lol.

I love the multiplayer in this game, but he's spot on about nearly everything he complained about.

Button mashing and mayhem where you can't see who is attacking etc only happens in 4 for alls. Although I agree with the majority of the review (oh thank God, so many Nintendo biased reviews seem to think Subspace Emissary is even half-good, good to see a change) in 1 VS 1 there is no button mashing and button mashing will likely get you killed.
Also, I don't agree with the level of competitiveness at which you become "that guy".

Well now, this turned out into a 2 men flame war >_>

kbandressen:
I love the multiplayer in this game, but he's spot on about nearly everything he complained about.

Yeah and I give him twice the praise cause he's almost the only one who has the courage to state the truth in a world full of perfect score reviews for a poor PARTY game.

Garfgarog:

gigirizzi:

Garfgarog:

mspencer82:

Well you hooting Smash Bros fans can't seem to get that I'm entitled to my own opinion....

Not when it's wrong, especially not when you've admitted to trolling. Have fun.

Can i ask one thing?

I see that in many forums...

Why is talking not positively about Nintendo almost always considered trolling?

You're doing it wrong.

lulz : D
Anyway, in response to gigirizzi, I don't think that spenser is a troll because he disapproves of the big N. I think that he is a troll because he found it necessary to say in several different posts *paraphrasing* "Screw you, I don't like Super Smash Brothers." If he doesn't like it and wants to express that opinion, great! I'm all for the exchange of ideas. But eventually, he needs to stop beating the dead horse and go look for something else to ride.

You talk about stop beating the dead horse... i think that's a good idea, you should try to pass it to Nintendo.

:D

mspencer82:

Garfgarog:
Unless I missed something, you should unlock all characters from a single playthrough of SSE. That aside, you didn't really try to find depth, or else you'd have spent time actively trying to find glitches that could be used offensively. Sounds more like you played the game expecting a whole new way of playing to jump out and kick you in the face.

A single playthrough!? What the hell, man? I must have got jipped or something, because the only things I unlocked were Doctor Mario, a Pokemon, and somebody else.

That's just it though, a game has to suck you in right from the get go to make you interested in it enough that you want to find all the glitches, unlock every character, etc. I shouldn't have to play a game more than two days before I find something I enjoy. It's about first impressions, and I didn't get a good one from Melee.

Wait, I must have clearly missed something, because I had no idea you were talking about Melee until this post.

God damn it. Time to backtrack and see where I fucked up.

m_jim:
lulz : D
Anyway, in response to gigirizzi, I don't think that spenser is a troll because he disapproves of the big N. I think that he is a troll because he found it necessary to say in several different posts *paraphrasing* "Screw you, I don't like Super Smash Brothers." If he doesn't like it and wants to express that opinion, great! I'm all for the exchange of ideas. But eventually, he needs to stop beating the dead horse and go look for something else to ride.

First of all, it's SpenCer, if you're going to talk about me like you know me at least have the decency to get my last name right.

And so far I've just been responding to all of the people (well, pretty much 2 people) who think my opinion is "wrong" and that I didn't play the game right or some such nonsense. That's not trolling, that "discussing".

Garfgarog:
Wait, I must have clearly missed something, because I had no idea you were talking about Melee until this post.

God damn it. Time to backtrack and see where I fucked up.

I've done that. I once had a heated conversation with a friend where we were talking about two completely different games only to discover that I actually agreed with him on the game he was actually talking about.

gigirizzi:
You talk about stop beating the dead horse... i think that's a good idea, you should try to pass it to Nintendo.

:D

hehe... point taken.

EDIT: spencer, sorry about getting your name wrong. no disrespect intended

Yeah, you only directly mentioned Melee in two posts, calling it Smash Bros everywhere else. My fanrabies was furious enough to make me miss these small things (aside form the fact that one of the direct mentions was simply SSBM and I missed the M...) and a single mention of the Gamecube. This makes me wonder though, have you even played Brawl?

Tumbler360:
That was awesome. I wish every week could be that good.

Not even going to say it, but I'm really looking forward to next week. Don't let me down.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. You and everyone else here.

Guess what. Yahtzee doesn't like having to unlock characters. In respect to Smash Bros., he said so in his review. ..and look: the majority of you regulars here agree with him.

What if everything was available at get-go? What if he had said that because there's nothing to unlock, there's no reason to play the game further than the five minutes it takes to become bored with it? You all would have agreed and said that Nintendo sucks for not giving the players something to play for.

Chances are, most of you people and your posts are just piggybacking Yahtzee and going with whatever he says.

That review is the worst submission thusfar and it appears he spent more time playing Condemned 2 than Smash Bros. This is clear because his review for Condemned 2 was in-depth, smart and quite informative to someone like myself who has been casually interested in playing the game. This week's release was bland, pretty clumsy and not nearly as funny as usual. Roxwuff is right. It appears that couple hours he spent with his drunken fool buddies was not nearly enough time to give him enough reason to make such a review. I didn't take anything from it. (Other than the idea that Nintendo fans are apparently lesser than other gaming fans because they enjoy their franchises. Very nice, Yahtzee.)

Truth be told, one of his final comments made good sense. There are certain games that are just meant to be played for simple fun. To waste time critiquing such games is obnoxious at best.

Garfgarog:
Yeah, you only directly mentioned Melee in two posts, calling it Smash Bros everywhere else. My fanrabies was furious enough to make me miss these small things (aside form the fact that one of the direct mentions was simply SSBM and I missed the M...) and a single mention of the Gamecube. This makes me wonder though, have you even played Brawl?

Sorry about the confusion then. I seem to cause more than my fair share...oh well.

I haven't played Brawl yet, I've mostly just watched gameplay footage and to me it looked like more of the same. I'm interested to see how the Wii controls fit into it though. Hell, for all I know that could make it fun for me.

So far the Wii is the one Nintendo system I haven't owned. So see, I'm not a Nintendo hater. A Super Smash Bros Melee hater - hell yes, but Nintendo hater, no.

MurmurTwins:

Truth be told, one of his final comments made good sense. There are certain games that are just meant to be played for simple fun. To waste time critiquing such games is obnoxious at best.

True, he should have ended his review with that and the "kicking Peach's ass" part.

I was introduced to Zero Punctuation a month or two back when a friend showed it to me, but I only made an account just now. I'm sure you know why.

I usually like Yahtzee's brutal honesty in his reviews, and I feel that for the most part he tears apart every game he comes across, and most of them receive fairly decent if not amazing scores from other reviewers. In other words, games that most reviewers won't dare to criticize (for whatever reason) I can ensure that Yahtzee will speak truth about its flaws.

For this review, this is partly true. He mentioned the flaws with the Subspace Emissary being too long and repetitive and the chores of unlocking all the secret characters (especially since both Sonic and Snake are on the back of the frikkin' box... it's no surprise that they're in the game, even if you stay far, far away from internet forums!) And I'm sure that many fanboys will defend the game no matter what, as evidenced by the plethora of responses in this very thread.

Here, I'll even add a few more flaws to the game: Many "cloned" characters were not removed (and some new ones were added), WiFi lags and requires the persistent Friend Codes, and the game seems to cater to newer characters and looks (Zelda series in particular) instead of the "classical" look of previous games. In many respects Brawl suffered from the same fate that the Pokemon handheld series faced: oversaturation of features to appeal to more and more people, and while are nice touches, don't add anything to the core gameplay. Nintendo knows the series is popular, and many of the new things they tried to put in felt like it was done half-assed. But the game is still good.

My problem with this review is that it makes the game look like utter shit, when it isn't. As others have mentioned, Yahtzee said that he didn't care for fighting games in his review, and many of his complaints seem to hit the genre holistically instead of targeting on this one game. That's the equivalent of saying "Oh, Team Fortress 2 is good/bad, so Halo 3 must be good/bad also."

Brawl is nothing like other fighting games, and if anything is a fighting/platformer hybrid of sorts. The game mechanics are solid, and the argument for button mashing goes for any game that you play for the first time. I've seen many people competitively play the original and Melee, with wavedashing and all that (which I was never really good with... I was never "that player," at least in comparison to my friends), but I've had fun with the game on a much simpler level. Basically, the game can be played either competitively or just for fun, and inclusions of items such as the Smash Brawl are evidence of this, since you can opt to take it out (for competitive matches) or leave it in (just for fun).

Still, the review was good, and had its usual funny remarks, and I enjoyed these parts, but I felt that in comparison to other games, Yahtzee never treated the game as having some sort of value to begin with, instead of just picking at its many faults (which he didn't even pick at completely. I love the game and found stuff that he missed). I like some reviews more than others, but there's always at least one part to every review that I find priceless (I particularly like the "Extravaganza" part) so I don't mind disagreeing here and there. It's just that this is the first review that I disagreed with most of the points.

Feel free to argue with me; I love a good debate.

Being in England, we're yet to gain alliances with whether or not we like SSBB, but your review gave me some new insight into what SSBB will be like. Not to imply i'm going totally by your opinion. I'm not a lemming. Completely.

Also I don't have a Wii.

the_importer:
True, he should have ended his review with that and the "kicking Peach's ass" part.

I loved that part of the review. I'm glad to see I'm not the only one who found the idea of beating certain Nintendo characters senseless appealing. Getting revenge on Peach for all of those times Mario had to rescue her over the years was somewhat satisfying.

It is against my religion to read all the posts in a thread this long, but I thought I would just kick this out there:

Does his introduction to this video indicate that if you all bombard him with constant email begging noise, he might now review a JRPG?

I've been following a few of these discussions and it has struck me that whenever someone disagrees with Yatzee's review, some people tend to belittle him as not understanding the game, shouldn't review games in genres he doesn't like or is just plain wrong. Saying that SSBB is a lot more deep than it would seem at first is all right. A lot of games takes skill to master and that's all right. What I think his point was that unless you master the game its really not fun.

Some fighting games have several stages of skill, where you can be kinda good at it, but still not be THAT GUY. I don't want to be THAT GUY in order to enjoy a game. I don't want to learn every move in order to understand the depth. Stop waving around a vague sense of "gameplay understanding" that can only be attained if you master the skills necessary, then expect everyone new to the game to knuckle down and train hard to be THAT GUY.

I like your reviews and tend to agree with you Yatzee, hope that shines a light in your world.

mspencer82:

the_importer:
True, he should have ended his review with that and the "kicking Peach's ass" part.

I loved that part of the review. I'm glad to see I'm not the only one who found the idea of beating certain Nintendo characters senseless appealing. Getting revenge on Peach for all of those times Mario had to rescue her over the years was somewhat satisfying.

Well that's one part of the Smash Franchise that's always been fun without being part of the actual gameplay. The fan service is not just about playing with your favorite character, but to see your character beat the living shit out of another one that you might find annoying and good lord does Nintendo have annoying characters to spare.

I would love to see other Smash games with characters from Disney or Bugs Bunny.

One more thing... if Yahtzee had actually went a little more in depth, I'd be interested to know his opinion on some of the others modes, such as:

1) The Coin Launcher
2) Stage Editor/Designer
3) Home Run Contest
4) Multi-Man Melee

The trick with the "single player" is to actually have a buddy/family member play it with you coop. Yes, you can actually add another player in.

"jahtze, you charismatic stalion"
this review was a biassed cock up!, but people still love you for it, so cheers :D
loved the peach-brain mashing, hated just about everything else, exept maybe the blatant commercial put in here XD "game traders..-"

to all the whiners, the fanboys, defenders and attackers:
smash can be button mashed, but then again, what cant ? you will get the same effect, your char wil flail all over the place, making you look like a retard, and somone will just pull out your controller til you act like a damn human being.
smash is not hard. jump, atack+ direction, special + direction, 3 fucking variables people!
now, if one were to rant about the simplicity of mind, and the total lack of propper splatter-fest mode, this would be understood, for it is nintendo, and all that is marginaly good about nintendo IS smash, fire emblem, and zelda ( blood idiots called nintendo INC. keep fucking up the 3'd though. )
one should not expect high standing, hight quality, hight graphics, one should look at it in the way it should be judged:
say, your with a girl, on your sofa, and you need a game you both can play without to much problems, smash is your thing!
it contains cuteness!, lack-of-splatter!, and most importantL lack of activity so the girl will most likely end doing something other with you wich is a lot better passtime!
this, is the strength that is smash brawl. otherwise, go back to halo, cod 4, or gears of war or whatnot.

thahat:
"jahtze, you charismatic stalion"
this review was a biassed cock up!, but people still love you for it, so cheers :D
loved the peach-brain mashing, hated just about everything else, exept maybe the blatant commercial put in here XD "game traders..-"

to all the whiners, the fanboys, defenders and attackers:
smash can be button mashed, but then again, what cant ? you will get the same effect, your char wil flail all over the place, making you look like a retard, and somone will just pull out your controller til you act like a damn human being.
smash is not hard. jump, atack+ direction, special + direction, 3 fucking variables people!
now, if one were to rant about the simplicity of mind, and the total lack of propper splatter-fest mode, this would be understood, for it is nintendo, and all that is marginaly good about nintendo IS smash, fire emblem, and zelda ( blood idiots called nintendo INC. keep fucking up the 3'd though. )
one should not expect high standing, hight quality, hight graphics, one should look at it in the way it should be judged:
say, your with a girl, on your sofa, and you need a game you both can play without to much problems, smash is your thing!
it contains cuteness!, lack-of-splatter!, and most importantL lack of activity so the girl will most likely end doing something other with you wich is a lot better passtime!
this, is the strength that is smash brawl. otherwise, go back to halo, cod 4, or gears of war or whatnot.

You want a game that gets you laid? Viva Pinata.

True story. :)

That was awesome, maybe there's hope for you yet. But you realize that whenever you say you expect your fanbase to send you hate emails for something, they all send annoying love emails instead. So that sentence at the end just fulfilled itself. There's a word for that, but I can't remember. On another note, I don't have any idea why people think you're not a reviewer. When was the definition of a review changed? On ANOTHER note, I have no idea why I'm talking like you'll ever read this. If you haven't given up on the comments yet, you're officially crazy.

mspencer82:

Garfgarog:
Yeah, you only directly mentioned Melee in two posts, calling it Smash Bros everywhere else. My fanrabies was furious enough to make me miss these small things (aside form the fact that one of the direct mentions was simply SSBM and I missed the M...) and a single mention of the Gamecube. This makes me wonder though, have you even played Brawl?

Sorry about the confusion then. I seem to cause more than my fair share...oh well.

I haven't played Brawl yet, I've mostly just watched gameplay footage and to me it looked like more of the same. I'm interested to see how the Wii controls fit into it though. Hell, for all I know that could make it fun for me.

So far the Wii is the one Nintendo system I haven't owned. So see, I'm not a Nintendo hater. A Super Smash Bros Melee hater - hell yes, but Nintendo hater, no.

I'm a PC fanboy anyway, so it doesn't really matter. Brawl apparently is a bit more balanced, but it's not much different from Melee basic play. The 'advanced' tactics from Melee have been corrected, though there are people trying to find equivalents/something new.

I use the Wii Remote and Nunchuck and it could be just as easily simulated as using a Gamecube controller. You can use the Wii remote alone, but that control style is retarded. There's also the classic controller but it doesn't do much you can't do with a gamecube controller either.

The one thing about Brawl is that most of the levels now, instead of just having minor changes or small hazards, can vary largely. The two Metroid levels, for example. One consists of five floating platforms that might be lowered down to only one in the corner due to lava flow, random sprays of magma from the background, and a random platform 'safe zone' to protect against a sure death wave of lava you usually have to fight with everyone else to be able to stay safe in. The environments can play a much larger role, as do Final Smashes and the Smash Balls. ASide form that though, it's Melee with a fresh coat of paint, some tweaks and revisions and new characters really.

FuckYouDad:

thahat:
"jahtze, you charismatic stalion"
this review was a biassed cock up!, but people still love you for it, so cheers :D
loved the peach-brain mashing, hated just about everything else, exept maybe the blatant commercial put in here XD "game traders..-"

to all the whiners, the fanboys, defenders and attackers:
smash can be button mashed, but then again, what cant ? you will get the same effect, your char wil flail all over the place, making you look like a retard, and somone will just pull out your controller til you act like a damn human being.
smash is not hard. jump, atack+ direction, special + direction, 3 fucking variables people!
now, if one were to rant about the simplicity of mind, and the total lack of propper splatter-fest mode, this would be understood, for it is nintendo, and all that is marginaly good about nintendo IS smash, fire emblem, and zelda ( blood idiots called nintendo INC. keep fucking up the 3'd though. )
one should not expect high standing, hight quality, hight graphics, one should look at it in the way it should be judged:
say, your with a girl, on your sofa, and you need a game you both can play without to much problems, smash is your thing!
it contains cuteness!, lack-of-splatter!, and most importantL lack of activity so the girl will most likely end doing something other with you wich is a lot better passtime!
this, is the strength that is smash brawl. otherwise, go back to halo, cod 4, or gears of war or whatnot.

You want a game that gets you laid? Viva Pinata.

True story. :)

i know, my friend has it, girls keep pettign THE DAMN BOX :D

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