Zero Punctuation: Metal Gear Solid 4

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Mspencer how do you explain complaints about the controls centered around things that are blatantly inaccurate? How do you explain "lack of emphasis on stealth..and game breaking super gun.." when the gun in question really doesn't take out people in one hit immedeatly unless you get them in the head, and doesn't have infinite ammo. (though you can buy as much as you like when you gain access to Drebin.) How do you explain that? Instead of crying about fanboy this and fanboy that explain those things first.

TerraMGP:
Hes selling out the other direction, to the Indie crowd, to the gamers who reject the mainstream. Hes trying to cater to them by tearing the snot out of games that are popualr for The sake of doing it. And again get off this stupid yatzee fanboy crap about me not liking him because he ripped on a game I like. He ripped on ALOT of games I like, its the flipflopping I have issues with

Forgive me, I must have missed all of the times you posted your opinion about Yahtzee selling out before this review and jumped to conclusions.

I don't think one can "sell out" to the indie crowd. That just doesn't sound right. Anyway, he's actually been pretty consistent if you look at his early reviews (Darkness and Fable).

TerraMGP:
Yeah... if thats all you ever used then I'm sure pen and paper MMO will be fine for you. Some of us on the other hand don't want that poorly written crap at our table.

Haha, funny. Another personal attack! See, no. When my gaming group roleplays, you see, we actually roleplay. Not LARPing, but our characters discuss things and react as we expect our characters to. If you need some dice rolling guidlines to do adequate roleplay, fine! But I myself always found roleplay thrived best when outside the constraints of silly rules. The occasional bluff or diplomacy check? Fine, that works, but beyond that why do you need rules to tell you how a character you made up would act in a roleplaying situation? I write my own stories, my players decide their own reactions and add to the story in this manner. I find it actually helps cut out contrived scenes and poorly written schlock. Just my preference.

Now if you're dungeon crawling, sure, and if you're more hack & slash, definitely rules will come in handy when it's time for some creativity. 'Nuff said.

Speaking of which! I would like to give Hideo his props where originality is concerned, at least. The goofy morals and silly scenes aside, Metal Gear Solid is indeed at least an original premise that isn't really afraid to add odd things in. That's the sort of thing that got me admiring FLCL and I may be a little unfair in utterly criticizing his ideas and storytelling method.

shadow skill:
Mspencer how do you explain complaints about the controls centered around things that are blatantly inaccurate? How do you explain "lack of emphasis on stealth..and game breaking super gun.." when the gun in question really doesn't take out people in one hit immedeatly unless you get them in the head, and doesn't have infinite ammo. (though you can buy as much as you like when you gain access to Drebin.) How do you explain that? Instead of crying about fanboy this and fanboy that explain those things first.

I don't have to explain them, it's not my review.

TerraMGP:
That drastically? and always to the side where he is in opposition? Seems way too coincidental.

Flipflopping occurs through experience. Such experience could be the fact that this type of animated reviewing scores much more traffic if it is controversial (for proof, just take a look at the MGS4 8/10 review on eurogamer.net, which has 2200+ replies and counting :).

Keep in mind that Yahtzee is creating a product, which nets him $$$ if it keeps scoring enough traffic for this website. As such, it is only natural to flipflop into a "reviewer's stance" which keeps the $$$ coming, no?

TerraMGP:
and no he has not been consistent. He USED to be consistent until his reviews started to be more about bashing the game and less about reviewing it.

Well, thus he became consistent in bashing the game :). By the way, ZP and "video game reviews" have never been about "reviewing" a game. They are opinion pieces with interspersed more or less objective truths about content and/or gameplay, nothing more, nothing less ("bashing games" is thus also a "review" within this context). I don't read these "reviews" or watch ZP for a professional assessment of a product, I read or watch them to enjoy myself and gauge their contents with my own experiences.

What I'm trying to say is: don't take video game reviews seriously, as they aren't serious to begin with.

We roleplay too, but those skills end up being a reflection of our characters abilities. they help ADD to it.Roleplay roleplay is very good but taking those skills out still hurts it especially for newer players.

and no he has not been consistent. He USED to be consistent until his reviews started to be more about bashing the game and less about reviewing it.

And yes, I realize he is creating a product, and he is letting more and more of his convictions about games, at least from what his work and his earlier videos have shown us, color that product to make it so more people will like it. Hence the DEFINITION of selling out. And yes you can sell out to the Indie crowd, Hell what is hot topic?

Hmm. Redundant dialogue? Overall pointlessness? General crappiness? So it's basically the game version of CAD?

Down, fanboys! I love the mgs series and own every single one, but only a damn idiot couldn't understand why some people don't like it. It comes to your tastes in games.
That said, the core engine is ten years old, so...yeah.

Ugh, I'd love to discuss this further, but if I get too off-topic I'ma get yelled at. Just let me end by asking you what skills they took out?? When I look at what they had in 3E and the skills in 4E, those that pertain to personality and skill with people are still in. Intimidate, Bluff, Diplomacy, Insight (takes the place of Sense Motive) etc. Skills seem pretty well covered and the new skill challenge system helps encourage roleplaying. I guess I just don't see your gripe.

Such angry, angry flaming
Gawd bless you Yahtzee for your God-given ability to make nerds rage

Then you never will, and this is why D&D is just going to end up keeling over and dying.I would have to get way too off topic to explain how useful those skills were and how MORE would have helped even with low rolling roleplay.

I personally prefer Yahtzee bashing games. Most reviewers seem to try so hard to be objective that they fail to point out the things that are wrong with the game. Note the Gamespot MGS4 review, which said absolutely nothing bad about it except that it might confuse people who haven't played the previous games. They don't point out any flaws, just what the game does right, then assign an arbitrary number score.

great review. i don't play mgs4 yet. I have played 2 and 3, and i like it. and i have to agree with yahtzee though. sometimes the game makes me bored and confused but i still gonna buy mgs4 anyway.

TerraMGP:
What I am saying is story is not bad, and alot of detail can be a very good thing especially when presented well. Again this is why people need to be forced to do some real RP heavy D&D once in a while.

And that, right here, is where you do incorrect comparisons in my opinion.
Now, I presume you like the storytelling aspects of RPing, right?
So, to play out your character in the frame of a nice, thought-out Plot.

But imagine the DM would gather you and your group for a session of good ol' D&D, you whip out your character sheets, and then the DM starts reading the entirety of Salvatores Dri'zzt cycle, and asks you afterwards if his campaign was any good... What would your answer be?

One of the basic premises of visual media is and always has been "Show, not Tell.", and that's where MGS4 seems to fall short.

And another one, while I'm at it:
You said that Halo's flaws are in the design. You're right there, as far as I'm concerned. BUT: How is MGS4 any different? A Game that you don't play, or loose more than half of it's content by skipping cutscenes... this is no mere design flaw in that the GAME design is flawed, that's more like the whole premise, it's design as a game is flawed. Compare: A flat tire is flawed (Halo, and it's not only flat, but also made of banana mush...), but if the tire is rectangular, it's not even a tire anymore (MGS4).

And, for the protocol, I flaming HATE Halo. With a passion.

tratorix:
I personally prefer Yahtzee bashing games. Most reviewers seem to try so hard to be objective that they fail to point out the things that are wrong with the game. Note the Gamespot MGS4 review, which said absolutely nothing bad about it except that it might confuse people who haven't played the previous games. They don't point out any flaws, just what the game does right, then assign an arbitrary number score.

And that is the problem. He does not bash games because everything in them is bash worth, he takes popular games and starts to bash them because thats what you want to see. Hence selling out. I agree mainstream reviewers sell out too much ot the fanboys who lap it up and buy the games with the biggest budget, but does he really have to go past the point of knocking them down a peg when needed to just harp on the games for things because he can? its not even a matter of not bashing them, its the bashing for its own sake

TerraMGP:
I was fully prepared for him to bash the game, and I have no problem with that, but the way he did it was not funny and lacked the charm of many of the other reviews.

I have no problem with him smacking the games I like around a bit, I just want to see it done in a way that covers REAL flaws. I don't want to see him just bash at the bad points he can find because he can. He should not have to sink that low.

Christ on a bike. First off... You preach about how Yahtzee is no good because "it's just his opinion"... which could be argued in itself (as was quite clearly, and always has stated facts as well). Then you go and give your own opinion on how it made you feel in comparison to other reviews. How pointless can you get? It's comments like yours that start arguments. I personaly loved this review, I think it's reminiscent of how Yahtzee started out.

Notice how I said "I think" in there... thus revealing that what I'm about to say is an opinion of my own. An ability that you seem to lack. I wouldn't even be replying if your post did not indicate fact without fact.

Lastly, you don't want to see him bash at bad points he finds because he can? What the? Go away then! EVERY critic does this. Have you not heard the old saying: "Those who can, do". It's his JOB to FIND FLAWS in GAMES, he's a CRITIC. You're too stupid to argue with.

mspencer82:

shadow skill:
Mspencer how do you explain complaints about the controls centered around things that are blatantly inaccurate? How do you explain "lack of emphasis on stealth..and game breaking super gun.." when the gun in question really doesn't take out people in one hit immedeatly unless you get them in the head, and doesn't have infinite ammo. (though you can buy as much as you like when you gain access to Drebin.) How do you explain that? Instead of crying about fanboy this and fanboy that explain those things first.

I don't have to explain them, it's not my review.

Yet you feel free to accuse people of fanboyism or actions usually attributed to fanboys for disagreeing with some of Yahtzee's statements about the game. I mean at the end of the day he could have argued that the Drebin point system makes the game too easy especially in light of certain glitches in the game with respect to respawning enemies. I was expecting Yahtzee to bag on Raiden hard in this review I mean the guy wears high heels, that has got to be great material for a guy like Yahtzee.

yzzlthtz:
final fantasy? dungeons and dragons? shut up!

and stop giving Yahtzee breaks.

this is his first review that is at least 90% fail.
and it follows up with a ninja gaiden preview.
he is at this moment, no doubt, walking around with a bag full of white-and-green condoms for all the 360 fanboys who want to ravenously suck his dick.

Wrong. He has harshly criticized both Halo 3, Bioshock, Mass Effect, and in the context of other reviews Gears of War and Dead Rising. He is not a 360 fanboy, but he does have a instant gratification attitude of 360 fanboys.

Anyway, how did this get off-topic? Why are there people talking about D&D of all things? I thought people stopped playing that after Y2K.

mspencer: please stop trying to make yourself look cool by making dry, sarcastic replies with no backing to them. It's getting old.

TerraMGP:
And yes, I realize he is creating a product, and he is letting more and more of his convictions about games, at least from what his work and his earlier videos have shown us, color that product to make it so more people will like it. Hence the DEFINITION of selling out. And yes you can sell out to the Indie crowd, Hell what is hot topic?

"Selling out" is seen as gaining success at the cost of *credibility*. Since there is no credibility in video game reviewing to begin with, there is no "selling out". In his video series, I don't remember Yahtzee telling us that he is this video gaming prophet who has come down from the mountain holding stone tablets with the Ten Ultimate Commandments of Video Gaming which he then clearly outlined for us to follow like a religion.

I see someone who thought up a "video game review" concept that attracts viewers, then gradually streamlines it via experiments (such as trying to include footage from himself, or dubbing video game cut scenes) to what he wants it to be and earn more and more $$$ while doing so. Nothing wrong with that and if you don't like it, seek entertainment or "guidance" whatever you want elsewhere.

You have somehow totally bypassed my point. I have been saying he is acting like a hypocrit for bashing games that, story wise, have the exact same elements as games HE HIMSELF has produced.

While I'm not about to argue for his objectivity, I think his anti-mainstream-game message is a welcome change of pace in the cesspool that is the modern game industry.

Proto Cloud:
mspencer: please stop trying to make yourself look cool by making dry, sarcastic replies with no backing to them. It's getting old.

Dry sarcasm is what I'm about, it's part of my charm. If you don't like it, don't read my posts.

If MGS was an Adventure game like the Chzo series, then perhaps extended cutscenes and all the extra detail they provide would be appropriate. In purported "Tactical Espionage Action" game it just seems out of place at best.

Heck, if the MGS storyline was cleaned up and presented in a book, or trilogy, and sold, I'd shell out 10 dollars (30 for a trilogy). If we tack on the visual aspect, are the cutscenes that much better than the price of admission for a movie? Is the story in this installment so good, that it's 2-3 times the cost of the very same book and movie? Is the last aspect of it, the gameplay, enough to bridge that gap?

In regards to Yahtzee's consistency in reviewing, or lack thereof, we each must be taking something different away from his videos. His primary modus operandi has always been to criticize what the game got wrong.

Also, Terra, you've accused Yahtzee of: "he does not give a damn about what others think and just sticks to his guns"; and: "color [his] product to make it so more people will like it". So he's selling out if he never changes, and selling out if he does. Where exactly does 'not selling out' lie?

Great review. Was predictable, but still funny. Obviously you're not a fan, but i still like seeing a POV from the other side of the fence.

I've got each Metal Gear Solid title, including the twin snakes remake and the original Metal Gear and Metal Gear 2: Solid Snake. I've always been a fan, and always will be. One of the things i love the most about the 'solid' series are the cut scenes. They give the story depth. i love that.

Keep up the good work!!

BTW, is it me or is the forum mod/admin a little trigger happy with the ol' ban stick? I've seen people getting banned for saying things like "f*cking awesome, blah blah blah" and getting a perma ban, but then another poster writing "you're all w@nkers" and getting a 2 week one... wtf? hardly fair? One guy got banned for saying Yartzee must have played on easy as harder settings have less ammo. Wtf is up with that?

$10 says I get a ban… :(

TerraMGP:
You have somehow totally bypassed my point. I have been saying he is acting like a hypocrit for bashing games that, story wise, have the exact same elements as games HE HIMSELF has produced.

Yes, games he himself produced BEFORE his video game reviews (unless he made a new one very recently, in which case I apologise for my ignorance), thus BEFORE the streamlining process, etc... began.

The tranquilizer gun only has infinite ammo on easy, you run out quite often on normal. So what difficulty did he play on? Cause it explains a lot about his review

How can anyone complain about excellent dialoge in a movie, or for that matter excellent story telling. Kojima really hit the mark with this title. He created an excellent game with an unbelievable story. Each and every character in this game were compelling, dynamic, and a essential part to the metal gear storyline. Not one minute of this games cut-scenes were boreing (which they are skippable by the way). I played all the games in the series when it was brought to the playstation, except for the third (I dont know just never got around to it) but it was ok because the game filled me in on anything and everything i wanted to know. By the way the controls are top-notch, and for Yatzee to say otherwise leads me to wonder if he bothered to look at the briefing or even tried the vr training where you can easily pratice all of the moves in the game. I know Yatzee wants to be funny and bash games because hes a critic afterall, but come on allready. This game is flawless, play it for yourself and see what you think.

shadow skill:

mspencer82:

shadow skill:
Mspencer how do you explain complaints about the controls centered around things that are blatantly inaccurate? How do you explain "lack of emphasis on stealth..and game breaking super gun.." when the gun in question really doesn't take out people in one hit immedeatly unless you get them in the head, and doesn't have infinite ammo. (though you can buy as much as you like when you gain access to Drebin.) How do you explain that? Instead of crying about fanboy this and fanboy that explain those things first.

I don't have to explain them, it's not my review.

Yet you feel free to accuse people of fanboyism or actions usually attributed to fanboys for disagreeing with some of Yahtzee's statements about the game. I mean at the end of the day he could have argued that the Drebin point system makes the game too easy especially in light of certain glitches in the game with respect to respawning enemies. I was expecting Yahtzee to bag on Raiden hard in this review I mean the guy wears high heels, that has got to be great material for a guy like Yahtzee.

I'm disagreeing with the notion that he has sold out because he's giving bad reviews for popular games. I'm making fanboy accusations because up to this point I haven't seen people criticizing Yahtzee. Okay, that's not entirely true, I also saw it in the Brawl thread. It seems like people don't get riled up and start reviewing the reviewer until Yahtzee trashes a game they really like.

Yahtzee made some good points about the story, points that I think apply to every Metal Gear game, not just 4. Is he wrong about some gameplay elements? Hell yes (if you don't like the tranq gun don't use it for pity sake), but one or two incorrect statements is hardly cause for calling him a sellout.

i cried when i realized the ninja gaiden thing was just an ad.

kept waiting for it to become a spoof.

MGS4_FTW:
Great review. Was predictable, but still funny. Obviously you're not a fan, but i still like seeing a POV from the other side of the fence.

I've got each Metal Gear Solid title, including the twin snakes remake and the original Metal Gear and Metal Gear 2: Solid Snake. I've always been a fan, and always will be. One of the things i love the most about the 'solid' series are the cut scenes. They give the story depth. i love that.

Keep up the good work!!

BTW, is it me or is the forum mod/admin a little trigger happy with the ol' ban stick? I've seen people getting banned for saying things like "f*cking awesome, blah blah blah" and getting a perma ban, but then another poster writing "you're all w@nkers" and getting a 2 week one... wtf? hardly fair? One guy got banned for saying Yartzee must have played on easy as harder settings have less ammo. Wtf is up with that?

$10 says I get a ban… :(

Why does it matter what kind of game it was? Honestly people need to move out of this mind set. Why on earth would you not expect a Hideo game to be like this, especially the last one in a series he has worked on so much?

VMerken:

TerraMGP:
You have somehow totally bypassed my point. I have been saying he is acting like a hypocrit for bashing games that, story wise, have the exact same elements as games HE HIMSELF has produced.

Yes, games he himself produced BEFORE his video game reviews (unless he made a new one very recently, in which case I apologise for my ignorance), thus BEFORE the streamlining process, etc... began.

Again what does it matter, Unless his gaming habbits and ideas about games have TOTALLY pulled a 180 their is no logic in that statement, even then his flip flopping shows that he just goes back and forth rather than staying on one side of the road or the other.

Did he spoil the plot? Need to know before i watch?

It's... been made pretty clear that the game Yahtzee made was of an utterly different genre that Metal Gear Solid and in no way proclaimed itself to be a tactical action title, a game of a sort where large amounts of storytelling are a key part of the type of game it is. Seriously, you seem to ignore that every time it comes up.

CTU_Agent24:
Did he spoil the plot? Need to know before i watch?

No, not really. Nothing you couldn't have picked up from the trailers.

mspencer82:

Proto Cloud:
mspencer: please stop trying to make yourself look cool by making dry, sarcastic replies with no backing to them. It's getting old.

Dry sarcasm is what I'm about, it's part of my charm. If you don't like it, don't read my posts.

Mmm. So you're just all show, I can dig it. Though I would hardly call it "charming".

TerraMGP:
Again what does it matter, Unless his gaming habbits and ideas about games have TOTALLY pulled a 180 their is no logic in that statement, even then his flip flopping shows that he just goes back and forth rather than staying on one side of the road or the other.

The Logic:

* Yahtzee produces some games
* After that, he produces a *subjective*, animated opinion series on video games
* Yahtzee streamlines this series to generate more traffic and thus more $$$

I see no glaring problems with this chronological process, since it's Yahtzee's subjective opinion that he brings forward, and not some rigorous, objective science (which starts from subjective axioms anyway). Opinions can change, they are not cast in stone, nor has Yahtzee ever claimed that his is. Thus there *is* no hypocrisy, flipflopping or what have you. His games may not correlate to his current work, but that is irrelevant since they happened before the animated series and reflect his opinion of that period rather than the current one.

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