Zero Punctuation: Metal Gear Solid 4

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I've read 300-page books better than 700-page books. More words does not equal better.

But they do when they add something, and what most people don't seem to get is that with stories like the ones in MGS series you NEED that extra story. he covered all his bases and gave us lots of data to mull over. I think its just a matter of people shutting out how good it is because of volume as they always do.

Yet without ambiguity there's no room for imagination.

Gave me a good laugh, especially seeing as one of my friends is convinced that MGS4 is the greatest game ever.

TerraMGP:
But they do when they add something, and what most people don't seem to get is that with stories like the ones in MGS series you NEED that extra story. he covered all his bases and gave us lots of data to mull over. I think its just a matter of people shutting out how good it is because of volume as they always do.

Still going I see, tough crowd uh.

agerdemon:
Wow looks like its gonna be another 1000 threader. What I find funny is that yahtzee's points are always correct they just don't annoy other people. Thats why I think he is a great reviewer he tells us the points about it and allows us to make our own decision.

but his points in this review were 99% shallow and 98&% uninteresting with a 2% margin for error. can't all you fans just accept that?

TerraMGP, understand that we acknowledge your enjoyment of the extra information and that you truly enjoy the cutscenes as they are, but at the same time please try to understand that some people think the same information, while interesting and a great story, could have been delivered better. Continuing to lump everyone who finds fault with the pacing in with people who are inherently impatient is, dare I say it, narrow minded.

But it could not, that was the best way to deliver it according to what the auther was intending. My point is that its a Hideo Kojima game. Honestly if you don't know off the bat its going to be like that your not doing the base research anyways.

My point is you CAN'T do what he wanted with less info. Those details are a part of what he does. If you don't like the details you should not be playing his games in the first place.

Complaining that MGS4 is full of cutscenes is like complaining that Madden is full of football.

For the record, I liked MGS4 but thought the story was not the greatest. Yahtzee's review however is lazy and useless; he even admits it. There were plenty of valid criticisms he could have pointed out; instead he went back to his old nemesis of story and dialogue. One wonders why a guy who designs ADVENTURE GAMES would hate these things so much...

Grampy_bone:
Complaining that MGS4 is full of cutscenes is like complaining that Madden is full of football.

For the record, I liked MGS4 but thought the story was not the greatest. Yahtzee's review however is lazy and useless; he even admits it. There were plenty of valid criticisms he could have pointed out; instead he went back to his old nemesis of story and dialogue. One wonders why a guy who designs ADVENTURE GAMES would hate these things so much...

Thats exactly what Ive been saying, especially with all the parallels that can be drawn between the work of the two.

mgs:

Strange and long winded stories that some people like and some don't plus non-traditional difficult and wonky game-play that some people like and some don't.
the game requires patience to really enjoy and let's face it some people just don't have time for patience.

all old news. old old old old old old.

there is so much in mgs4 to treasure that a review like this one that he clearly pooped out after a long bender is just stupid. stupid stupid stupid.
somewhat funny, but overall insulting.

and stupid.

Grampy_bone:
Complaining that MGS4 is full of cutscenes is like complaining that Madden is full of football.

For the record, I liked MGS4 but thought the story was not the greatest. Yahtzee's review however is lazy and useless; he even admits it. There were plenty of valid criticisms he could have pointed out; instead he went back to his old nemesis of story and dialogue. One wonders why a guy who designs ADVENTURE GAMES would hate these things so much...

These are all exelent points you guys are making, but to no avail; most people in this site are not ready for that kind of critisism towards Yahtzee.

Well they will have to get ready then. I for one still have respect for the man for the most part, and most would agree, but I think that people need to start keeping him honest more.

JTM:
Plays "Ayo Technology" intro. Stops music.

Great review.

However, what the hell? Did anyone else sit there at 4:15 seconds looking at the credits thinking, "Oh YES! Another great ZP short!" Well, I did and I don't care a rat's ass if you did or not.

Little did I know (now I do, much to my chagrin) that it was an advertisement for Heavenly Sword((S)) 2, which they now have on the XCrap360. Jeeeesus. Nothing like ruining a perfectly good review by adding on a TWO MINUTE AD on the end.

Seriously, this makes me hesitant to even watch after the credits now. I went from giddy as a schoolgirl to as scared as the chic off of that crappy movie, oh what was it... the one with the blind girl that got new eyes? It doesn't matter, names are unimportant. What is important is that you realize how craptastic that was. Damn you.

Plays "Bohemian Rhapsody" while the credits roll. Stops.

AND DOESN'T CUT TO AN AD.

I am just as annoyed by the ads as anyone else; I am fed up with what The Escapist has done to Zero Punctuation. I think it's a safe assumption that when the ads on a video are longer than the video itself it's pretty much whoring itself. I don't think Yahtzee has sold out, I just think that The Escapist has sold him out.

As for the person I've quoted, are you retarded? The original Ninja Gaiden was out long before Heavenly Sword, so either you are completely ignorant or completely demented. Also, voicing your opinion on a console by replacing one of the syllables with the word 'crap' is the work of eight year olds.

On topic, how is Yahtzee being hypocritical? He's said before that any game designer that sacrifices gameplay for their message is 'so far up their own arses they're at risk of choking on their own head'. I can see no more efficient method of sacrificing gameplay than cutting it out. If you like that sort of thing, fine, but don't force it on others.

Also, notice the following:
Yahtzee hates Halo 3; fine.
Yahtzee dislikes Bioshock; fine.
Yahtzee dislikes Mass Effect; fine.
Yahtzee makes a few complaints about MGS4, and he's become an Xbox 360 fanboy who just gives people what they want by sacrificing his integrity.

TerraMGP:
My point is that its a Hideo Kojima game. Honestly if you don't know off the bat its going to be like that your not doing the base research anyways.

And here we've come full circle. Those of us that have watched this episode of Zero Punctuation and have no idea who Hideo Kojima is, and the types of games created under his name, now have an indication of what to expect. For people that were not looking for that type of game who somehow managed to pick up MGS4 because it was marketed as an Action game, they express their agreement with Yahtzee on this particular concern. While it may be unfortunate that they do not share an enjoyment of the story as presented, we cannot say they are wrong.

But you have no idea of what to expect, and if your going to buy ANY game you should know these things. Its called doing your homework and if your going to invest that much money in a new game, you really should. I have not always agreed with Yatzee but he USED to give good indications of what the game was like overall, this did not give a good indication of that. He just knocked on the amount of story when he could have simply said "Their is way too much story for most people who won't like that kind of thing and its confusing" in his usual snippy and snide way and moved on to the other problems in the game without making it seem like the story is a crime against nature when he himself is guilty of the same thing.

TerraMGP:
Well they will have to get ready then. I for one still have respect for the man for the most part, and most would agree, but I think that people need to start keeping him honest more.

I'm telling you all this because when I first joined the Escapist I found myself arguing about how I disagreed with a lot of things Yahtzee had to say (especially when he gave us a first impression reviwew of The Whitcher, a game I have'nt even played yet). A lot of people LOVE Yahtzee here to the point where there was actually a poll posted little after his review of Uncharted: Drake's Fortune (remember when he made a brief appearence in that video?) asking how good he looks. That's the point where I realized that I was not going to argue here in the escapist anymore. My point is that there are battles worth fighting and others that are not, and just ask yourself: "When I finally get home and boot up my PS3 with MGS4, kick back and enjoy, will all this chit-chat really matter?". I think not.

TerraMGP:
He just knocked on the amount of story when he could have simply said "Their is way too much story for most people who won't like that kind of thing and its confusing" in his usual snippy and snide way...

But that would be simplifying Yahtzee's vision. cough

To me, Yahtzee is similar to the bitter, unpopular punk musician who constantly goes around complaining about how all music sucks.

When you consider yourself to be "good" at something, it's depressing/irritating to see people who are "bad" at it do it more successfully than you. Cognitive dissonance is a powerful thing.

If they did not receive the information required to make an accurate assessment, you can hardly blame them when reviewers were pressured not to mention it:
http://tinyurl.com/63cpom
(goes to a gamesradar artcle... 161 characters is too hefty for a link. here's a preview if you've been rickrolled too many times and are link-shy: http://preview.tinyurl.com/63cpom )

We're just going to have to disagree on whether or not Yahtzee altered his style to be more negative. I found it no more or less harsh than his other deconstructions.

Grampy_bone:
To me, Yahtzee is similar to the bitter, unpopular punk musician who constantly goes around complaining about how all music sucks.

When you consider yourself to be "good" at something, it's depressing/irritating to see people who are "bad" at it do it more successfully than you. Cognitive dissonance is a powerful thing.

I wouldn't go as far as to say that he's a bitter reviewer, what I do think that he does it because it's a style that has made him rather popular (as he himself pointed out in his Bioshock review: "people don't like it when I'm nice to games") AKA- he's sticking to his guns. My problem isn't really Yahtzee, he does what he has to do and it's not bad at all, the problem for me is some fans (not all of you guys, but some of you) just patronize him WAY too much (with posts like "Yahtzee you are a GOD" I'm sure he has to be a bit irritated as well). That to some people is as annoying as fan boys are to others.

Yahtzee!:Video Games::Mr. Cranky:Movies

There exists for some a cathartic reward in defining something in mostly negative space. It serves to counterbalance the trend in mainstream criticism of defining things in mostly positive space. I use it not as a replacement, merely a different way of setting up the lenses.

First time I've ever disagreed with Yahtzee; I knew he would hate and bitch about the long cut scenes, as he's said many times he is "an instant gratification gamer", but being the literary lemur he is I really thought that he would be cognitively capable enough to appreciate the story. Moreover, complaining about the combat controls of MGS4 after praising those of GTA4 tells me that he either didn't actually play one or both of the games, or he's got some personal bias that's subconsciously making his controller defy him. Speaking purely objectively, I found this to be one of the best games I've ever played, if not the best.

Explain to me how this makes sense: first Yahtzee says quite plainly that he didn't understand the story, then he calls it bad. Is that hypocrisy or simply contradicting himself?

Don't get me wrong, this review made me laugh out loud just like most of his did, I just disagree on his findings.

agerdemon:
Wow looks like its gonna be another 1000 threader. What I find funny is that yahtzee's points are always correct they just don't annoy other people. Thats why I think he is a great reviewer he tells us the points about it and allows us to make our own decision.

but his points in this review were 99% shallow and 98&% uninteresting with a 2% margin for error. can't all you fans just accept that?

jaxxduece:
OMG
OMG
OMG
OMG
OMG
OMG
OMG

Anyone else laugh at this? ("User was banned for this post")

Geo Da Sponge:
I am just as annoyed by the ads as anyone else; I am fed up with what The Escapist has done to Zero Punctuation. I think it's a safe assumption that when the ads on a video are longer than the video itself it's pretty much whoring itself. I don't think Yahtzee has sold out, I just think that The Escapist has sold him out.

As for the person I've quoted, are you retarded? The original Ninja Gaiden was out long before Heavenly Sword, so either you are completely ignorant or completely demented. Also, voicing your opinion on a console by replacing one of the syllables with the word 'crap' is the work of eight year olds.

On topic, how is Yahtzee being hypocritical?

First, I know it's not Yahtzee. Of course it's the Escapist... should have made that more clear. I love his videos and his shorts, that's why I'm so damn disappointed to see more than 2 minutes of ads tacked onto the end.

Secondly, I don't give a flying fuck which was out first. The first one that came to my mind was Heavenly Sword(S). Tt looks just like the gameplay except it's a dude. I just as easily said GoW but I've never played it, only seen gameplay footage. I thought the crap replacement was funny. So I included it.

Thirdly, I don't think there is a thirdly, because I don't think the rest applies to my post.

It's exactly as I feared.

Some people are so heavily influenced by modern passive media (TV, movies, music) that they expect video games to convey the same types of stories.

It's okay for a game to have a long story, and it's okay for that story to be full of japanese cultural convention (mechs, deus ex machina and the like). However, it is NOT okay for people to say that video games like this are the pinnacle of the medium, because then the point behind it all, interactivity, is lost. Video games represent an exciting new way to tell stories, but MGS4 doesn't really tap into that potential. At the end of the day, it's similar to a JRPG in that it's story -> gameplay -> story -> gameplay -> end.

The gameplay and cutscenes merge together beautifully in MGS4, so I'm not knocking on its presentation. Rather, I'm asking why there are cutscenes at all. They are passive. They are skippable story bits that don't enhance the gameplay, they only enhance each other. When a person says "The story made the game great for me.", what they're really saying is "That was a good book."

MGS4 is a good action game, and it's utterly beautiful. However, everthing in it has been done. Not this beautifully, but its been done.

Some of us want games to keep getting better. MGS4 does nothing for us.

JTM:
Secondly, I don't give a flying fuck which was out first. The first one that came to my mind was Heavenly Sword(S). Tt looks just like the gameplay except it's a dude. I just as easily said GoW but I've never played it, only seen gameplay footage. I thought the crap replacement was funny. So I included it.

*face palm*

North American release dates

Ninja Gaiden - March 2, 2004 (xbox original game)

Heavenly Sword - September 12, 2007

Ninja Gaiden 2 - June 3, 2008

Westwalker:
Explain to me how this makes sense: first Yahtzee says quite plainly that he didn't understand the story, then he calls it bad. Is that hypocrisy or simply contradicting himself?

Neither. He said that the story was complicated and that the writing was bad. Those are two separate assertions.

If MGS4 is anything like MGS1-3, then he's absolutely bang on. MGS has a complex narrative, which appeals to some but not others; the dialogue, at least in my experience, has generally been pretty bad.

I've got MGS4 and I'm expecting to enjoy it -- I'm just calling a spade a spade.

drawthreecards:
It's exactly as I feared.

Some people are so heavily influenced by modern passive media (TV, movies, music) that they expect video games to convey the same types of stories.

It's okay for a game to have a long story, and it's okay for that story to be full of japanese cultural convention (mechs, deus ex machina and the like). However, it is NOT okay for people to say that video games like this are the pinnacle of the medium, because then the point behind it all, interactivity, is lost. Video games represent an exciting new way to tell stories, but MGS4 doesn't really tap into that potential. At the end of the day, it's similar to a JRPG in that it's story -> gameplay -> story -> gameplay -> end.

The gameplay and cutscenes merge together beautifully in MGS4, so I'm not knocking on its presentation. Rather, I'm asking why there are cutscenes at all. They are passive. They are skippable story bits that don't enhance the gameplay, they only enhance each other. When a person says "The story made the game great for me.", what they're really saying is "That was a good book."

MGS4 is a good action game, and it's utterly beautiful. However, everthing in it has been done. Not this beautifully, but its been done.

Some of us want games to keep getting better. MGS4 does nothing for us.

Well maybe some people want their games to be more like books. It doesn't defeat the purpose of the media, it just happens to be a diffrent segment of it. Frankly I think more people would do well to start getting the patience to appreciate more story-oriented games, in fact I think in most any game the story is the KEY feature.

Escapistmag=Nazis:
This site bans people for the dumbest shit. Fuck you all. Fuck your moms. Fuck your dads. Fuck your pets. FUCK FUCK FUCK FUCK FUCK FUCK

Truly yours,
FUCK

*waves*

Bye!

Escapistmag=Nazis:
This site bans people for the dumbest shit. Fuck you all. Fuck your moms. Fuck your dads. Fuck your pets. FUCK FUCK FUCK FUCK FUCK FUCK

Truly yours,
FUCK

I have 733 Posts and I've never even been put on probation, it can't be that hard to avoid the banhammer. Usually they ban people for stupid things like posting "first" for no reason, or filling an entire post with random gibberish.

Also, enjoy your second dance with said ban-hammer, I'm sure it'll hit like a ton of bricks very shortly.

Great review... basically everything I thought would be wrong with MGS4 (or at least could be better).

Now about the Ninja Gaiden 2 trailer, did they *really* use that fucking CCHHJJJJUUURRRRRRAAAAAAAAAAAAAUUUUUUUUGGGGGGHHHH!!!!!! scream you hear in every cheesy B-movie, shitty game, and horror movie trailer ever created??

MSG was always good...bearly..the main problem with it is play control and the way they set it up, it feels like a cumbersome mess half the time.

The game industry is trying to hard to make media and not games IE well made,polished interactive entertainment play control,options for play control and button mapping are big issues no one is wanting to deal with.

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